Boondock Saints Mafia(Day 5 begins)

[#HBC | Ryker]

knowing who you trust at any given time shouldnt be something that other players should know, and isnt bad that others dont know. If we are to assume who some people trust the town could be totally blind sided by the wolves who may have been trying to steer the townies in the wrong direction by planting incorrect alliances from the start.

They try to do that in either case. It's the sane thing as the town list: I don't see why letting everyone know who you think is innocent at this point is a bad thing.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

This post right here confirms to me we have to lynch one of them.

Please look at the bolded and tell me we are not dealing with something a lot more strange then just two players that circlejerk each other.

Basically acts as if they're a ****ing masonry for god sakes.

Also wanting to use our only deadline extension on D1 is a giant facepalm.

Lynch one of them.

Would rather lynch Ryker at this point for his blatant buddying and admitting to it as well.

God if we're in a good position go MM day 2 cause if what Ryker says is true then if we lynch either one of them the other is going to act like a detrimental *******.

Maybe we are. >.>

I will say again. I know that I'm not scum. I don't think MM is scum. Therefore I think you'll end up leading to mislynches and leaving the town in a bad position.

Disagreement with your next point has already been stated.

I didn't know you only get one deadline extension. In any case, we have plenty of time to get over this and move on. I already said I don't think we'll need it.

Kevin, if I were to ask for a replacement right now, would you proceed to try and get my replacement lynched as well?

 

[Ronike]

So let me get this straight: after everyone explicitly telling you why town lists are bad and giving you reasons for this conclusions., you still think they are good.

 

[Trillion]

Vote: Magnificentmarth

Ryker, vote for me please. I have neither the patience nor the interest in reasoning with complete imbeciles who refuse to believe that there is a way to play this game other than their own preferred way. If they do not want their town - aligned watcher, then it is worth the sacrifice so that they can see that half of them are clearly falling for Kevin's ridiculous argument and can lynch the scum on the next day phase.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't be dumb. Just vote Ryker already and stop buddying him.

 

[Trillion]

Don't be dumb. Just vote Ryker already and stop buddying him.

He's not a mafia though.

 

[Moronik]

So let me get this straight: by trying to show you why we think your playstyle is off in a reasonable manner, I'm an imbecile. And you thought the best course of action to rectify this was to claim, and try to get yourself killed off? Just outta curiosity, how old are you?

~Ronike

 

[Moronik]

unvote yourself mm. back to the drawing board

~Ronike

 

[Trillion]

My play style is perfectly reasonable and you guys are not making an ounce of sense. Like Raine. He says it's bad to make a full list, but at the same time, I'm supposed to pursue my suspects and buddy the people I think are innocent? That basically spells out a complete list.

You want to tell me that my list is wrong because in the very off chance that I happen to name the doctor as least innocent AND the entire town happens to agree with my list AND the wolves think that my list makes a good hit list, that I am detrimental to the town? These arguments are so situational and so ridiculously unlikely that you are all purely looking for a reason to disagree with me because my methods are out of your norms. I'm being told to adapt to the environment? The environment is a game, a game that I am well familiar with and the so called environment is the same no matter where you play, it is the strategies and philosophies that are different. Just because you disagree with mine does not mean that it doesn't work or that I am playing wrongly. It just means its different. After I'm dead, the town will have a confirmed innocent's opinion to refer to.

 

[Moronik]

did you even read our post 231?

~Marshy

 

[Trillion]

Yes, my above posts references several things that you said if you actually read it. I specifically addressed the thing about the lists and the environment and such.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So let me get this straight: after everyone explicitly telling you why town lists are bad and giving you reasons for this conclusions., you still think they are good.

Yes. I disagree completely with what you think is bad.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So let me get this straight: by trying to show you why we think your playstyle is off in a reasonable manner, I'm an imbecile. And you thought the best course of action to rectify this was to claim, and try to get yourself killed off? Just outta curiosity, how old are you?

~Ronike

Dude, it is really frustrating to reason here. I'm trying, but every time Kevin posts I feel like I'm feeding a troll.

 

[Moronik]

Ok, so here's the deal with the town list:
A) It tells scum who town explicitly trusts, even more so when we debate said list. In a game where scum relies on town NOT trusting each other in order to win (night kills are nearly a constant, mislynches are a variable) the smart kill is who the town trusts.
B) Yes, this list also gives the doctor a list of who the town trusts, but then it also tells the mafia who the doctor will protect, thus allowing them to hit someone else, thus making night kills an ACTUAL constant. Plus theres all the "What if the most trusted is doc? discussion. Well, in that case, more likely than not we have a dead doc.
C) It allows for the framing of a town. We don't want that kind of WIFOM floating around. Some WIFOM is good, but any avoidable WIFOM is best avoided so as to not confuse issues further.
D) It introduces discussion. Yes, this is true, but as I have stated with my previous 3 points, this is not discussion we want. We're better off discussing things like this. Playstyle and what seems off.

You want to tell me that my list is wrong because in the very off chance that I happen to name the doctor as least innocent AND the entire town happens to agree with my list AND the wolves think that my list makes a good hit list, that I am detrimental to the town? These arguments are so situational and so ridiculously unlikely that you are all purely looking for a reason to disagree with me because my methods are out of your norms.

look, you obviously didn't read it very well. you mentioned the one thing we put in there simply because others were discussing it. personally, i agree with you, it is so insanely situational that it probably doesnt even deserve mentioning. however the other points that you failed to mention still hold sway. and we were not saying YOU were detrimental to the town, we were saying that said LIST is detrimental to the town.

ryker, i challenge you to go through our list of why town lists are bad and specifically state why it is wrong. point for point.

~Marshy

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ok, so here's the deal with the town list:
A) It tells scum who town explicitly trusts, even more so when we debate said list. In a game where scum relies on town NOT trusting each other in order to win (night kills are nearly a constant, mislynches are a variable) the smart kill is who the town trusts.
B) Yes, this list also gives the doctor a list of who the town trusts, but then it also tells the mafia who the doctor will protect, thus allowing them to hit someone else, thus making night kills an ACTUAL constant. Plus theres all the "What if the most trusted is doc? discussion. Well, in that case, more likely than not we have a dead doc.
C) It allows for the framing of a town. We don't want that kind of WIFOM floating around. Some WIFOM is good, but any avoidable WIFOM is best avoided so as to not confuse issues further.
D) It introduces discussion. Yes, this is true, but as I have stated with my previous 3 points, this is not discussion we want. We're better off discussing things like this. Playstyle and what seems off.

A.) It tells scum who one townie trusts. Scum would kill X is a horrible argument to begin with. There are too many variables for that to matter. Bulletproof, Doc, Bus-Driver. Why wouldn't the scum pick those lower down on the list to keep from being stopped.

B.) You're contradicting your first point with this one.

C.) By scum? And how so? They still have to have the points against the townies to bring it to a lynch. A suspicion list alone is not enough to lynch someone. If the information to lead a lynch against a townie were not readily available then the lynch wouldn't occur. If the information is there then what's to stop scum (or even pro-town players) from bringing it up anyway?

D.) I disagree. I think it's discussion we do want because playstyle and what seems off is what the list is based on.

Would you prefer if the list went like this?

Leaning Scum:

No Clue:

Leaning Town:

With a possible third party category tacked on?

That's how I generally make my list.

 

[Trillion]

Ok, so here's the deal with the town list:
A) It tells scum who town explicitly trusts, even more so when we debate said list. In a game where scum relies on town NOT trusting each other in order to win (night kills are nearly a constant, mislynches are a variable) the smart kill is who the town trusts.

The town does not all trust the same people. Ryker is most innocent to me. He has a large number of votes on himself right now. Further, the wolves do not know if we are telling the truth about our lists. I can switch a few people around and still give the town a decent list without giving away my every thought.

B) Yes, this list also gives the doctor a list of who the town trusts, but then it also tells the mafia who the doctor will protect, thus allowing them to hit someone else, thus making night kills an ACTUAL constant. Plus theres all the "What if the most trusted is doc? discussion. Well, in that case, more likely than not we have a dead doc.

If the doctor protects the most innocent person on the list, then yes the mafia just simply might not target that person, but would instead hit the second most innocent appearing person, but the doctor would of course guess this and would protect that person so the wolves would actually go for the most innocent person, but the doctor would guess that they would guess that he would protect the second most instead of the first and so he would... the story goes on. Every night, the doctor and the wolves play this same game regardless of a list. The whole doc being most innocent on my list and the wolves hitting him still goes through the same process in the wolves minds since they won't know he is the doctor or not and its so situational that it's not likely.

C) It allows for the framing of a town. We don't want that kind of WIFOM floating around. Some WIFOM is good, but any avoidable WIFOM is best avoided so as to not confuse issues further.

The WIFOM is always floating around as it is anyways. Did the person who voted X also night kill X? Did someone else kill them to frame that person? Etc. It doesn't frame a townie any more than a regular night kill does.

D) It introduces discussion. Yes, this is true, but as I have stated with my previous 3 points, this is not discussion we want. We're better off discussing things like this. Playstyle and what seems off.

I disagree witht the above points. None of them from my perspective actually benefit the wolves as much as you say they do if at all. Instead, I think that the discussion provides a larger net benefit than the net costs that could come from the above points.

Now then, theres your unwillingness to adapt. Look, mafia is different where you play it. Mafiascum uses formulas, we use hardcore WIFOM a lot of the time along with discussion and what not. Two entirely different ways of playing. And I'm sure allisbrawl plays completely different as well, especially since you said its in the "silly stuff" section.

Now in a different environment, you have to adapt. Which thusfar you have been completely unwilling to do. True, we may not be going about it the best way, but your style of play pretty much plays right into the way our scum tend to play.

Between the town lists, the willingness to clear someone pretty much just cause you know them (a personal pet peeve), and arrogance tends to make people even more unwilling to listen and or help.

I'm not unwilling to adapt. The game mafia is still the same game no matter where you play it and with whom. Everyone has their own idea of what gives the most benefit and what costs the most. I personally think that lists provide great benefit and little cost. You're the opposite. We both have our reasons for why, the difference is that I respect your opinion and don't expect you to do things my way.

I am not clearing Ryker. I simply think he is likely innocent. It doesn't mean that I won't pay close attention to him or that he is 100% innocent, just my opinion on what I think is probable. I feel that my read on him is fairly decent from the number of experiences that I have playing every possible angle of the game with him. I've played with him as town/town, mafia/mafia, town/mafia, mafia/town and even as town/town masons and he's even seen my town play from a narrator perspective.

in response to "your way is not the ONLY way to play." pretty much means you are saying your way is the only correct way.

No, for the probably 5th time, my way is not the only correct way to play. There are many correct ways to play.

Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, you both are buddying like crazy. Each other especially, but posts like Ryker's right after I said "I'm going to try to help you learn how to play" that are basically flattery and saying "I see how you are more reasonable that everyone else" qualify as well. This mindless buddying is seen as a sign of scumminess, as it creates a subconcious response to try to defend those that were nice to you early on, something you want as scum. Please try to stop.

If we don't know who trusts and who suspects who, then how do you know if someone is just bandwagon voting? Assume that Ryker might be a mafia. Perhaps rather than ever put out an opinion he is just allowed to sit the fence and always follow the town majority and bandwagon every lynch. He would never be necessarily suspicious because he would have always been lynching right along with the majority and surely the majority of players can't be wolves so he would be blending in just right. But, by making him take a stance on who is town and who is wolf, he can not suddenly flip flop and say that he is suspicious of someone just to get the easy lynch. Further, if the mafia all had the exact same list with each other as most innocent, then we would put 2 and 2 together as soon as any of them were lynched. Thus, the mafia are forced to divide themselves and since they can not piggyback each other as well, they have less control among the town.

Also, I realize this is likely not your fault, but you both are sucking up way too much attention with your constant bickering and omnipresent quadruple posts. Its likely allowing scum to fade into the background. Hell, when half of the page is taken up by 2 people, everyone else is going to be in the background regardless.

Anyways, thats what I got. If other want to add on, feel free. If you got other questions, also feel free to ask.

~Ronike

I'll try to minimize my posts.

 

[mentosman8]

Vote count!

Magnificent Marth(4): Rainemuzi, Blue Yoshi, Scumfever, magnificentmarth
Ryker(5): ChiboSempai, SquirtleSquad, Gheb, KevinM, Cacti
SquirtleSquad(1): Ryker
Not Voting(2): moronik, Melancholy

Deadline is Saturday January 23rd at 11:59 PM central

 

[Moronik]

A.) It tells scum who one townie trusts. Scum would kill X is a horrible argument to begin with. There are too many variables for that to matter. Bulletproof, Doc, Bus-Driver. Why wouldn't the scum pick those lower down on the list to keep from being stopped.

B.) You're contradicting your first point with this one.

Fine. Let's say we go your route. Someone makes a list of who is trusted. Everyone debates said list. We finally get it down to something we all agree on. What is the mafia going to do? In a world without a doctor, they pick the top most person to kill off the most trusted townie. But since doctors exist, what will they do instead? Kill one of the top three, likely randomized so as to avoid the doc kill. They have the majority percentage of hitting someone trusted, the burden of protection is placed on the doctor. So congrats, now the mafia has an excellent way to not only kill of all the people the town trusts quickly, but also a near sure-fire way to avoid the doc. And you want us to rely on bp and busdrivers? That is not something we want to do, since in all likelyhood those aren't in the game.

C.) By scum? And how so? They still have to have the points against the townies to bring it to a lynch. A suspicion list alone is not enough to lynch someone. If the information to lead a lynch against a townie were not readily available then the lynch wouldn't occur. If the information is there then what's to stop scum (or even pro-town players) from bringing it up anyway?

I guaruntee you, if the mafia wants to frame someone with this list, they can and will. If not in one day, then in several. And if not, it will just bring pointless time wasting arguments to the table, kind of like what this whole argument is. And to lynch someone, you use lots of little points, which you are being kind enough to give to the scum gift wrapped with your town list.

D.) I disagree. I think it's discussion we do want because playstyle and what seems off is what the list is based on.

Why do you have to make a list to discuss this? Why can't you just bring it up? This is infinetely preferrable to just saying "I trust X, Y, and Z. Here's why..." Because this way, you don't have to tell people who you trust just to get a point across. Instead, you choose when to tell people who you trust. For example, me and my other head here have 3-4 clears already, and I doubt you'd be able to guess them before we wanted you to, which keeps a variable in play for the scum.

Would you prefer if the list...

No, I'd prefer no list.

~Marshy

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Fine. Let's say we go your route. Someone makes a list of who is trusted. Everyone debates said list. We finally get it down to something we all agree on. What is the mafia going to do? In a world without a doctor, they pick the top most person to kill off the most trusted townie. But since doctors exist, what will they do instead? Kill one of the top three, likely randomized so as to avoid the doc kill. They have the majority percentage of hitting someone trusted, the burden of protection is placed on the doctor. So congrats, now the mafia has an excellent way to not only kill of all the people the town trusts quickly, but also a near sure-fire way to avoid the doc. And you want us to rely on bp and busdrivers? That is not something we want to do, since in all likelyhood those aren't in the game.

No. There are too many variables for that to be reliable and the town is bound to disagree. The list is not used so the town can create a consensus on every single player. It's used, as I said before, as a springboard. Generally the town doesn't discuss the top part of the list so long as they don't think that someone there is scum. That narrows it down to about 5 players and the wolves are forced to pick between. Whoop-ti-do. They hit a townie. That happens most nights. If you go your way with the random choice among the top 3, then that only adds to the doc's chance of being successful. Hell, when the mafia begins figuring things like roles out they aren't likely to care who's most town according to one guy. They're gonna care who is the biggest threat. Seers, detectives, doctors, etc.

Also, it's not like there's going to be a new list revealed every phase. Day 1 and late game when discussion has reached a standstill with the town out of targets are when the list is useful.

I guaruntee you, if the mafia wants to frame someone with this list, they can and will. If not in one day, then in several. And if not, it will just bring pointless time wasting arguments to the table, kind of like what this whole argument is. And to lynch someone, you use lots of little points, which you are being kind enough to give to the scum gift wrapped with your town list.

That's a guarantee I can't take on your word alone. Give me all those little points then (and BS on that part too. One big point can be enough as well, but that's neither here nor there).

Why do you have to make a list to discuss this? Why can't you just bring it up? This is infinetely preferrable to just saying "I trust X, Y, and Z. Here's why..." Because this way, you don't have to tell people who you trust just to get a point across. Instead, you choose when to tell people who you trust. For example, me and my other head here have 3-4 clears already, and I doubt you'd be able to guess them before we wanted you to, which keeps a variable in play for the scum.

If I say I trust X, Y, and Z and you think I'm wrong, you can help revise my judgment. Now I can some situations where you want to withold who you trust. Day 1 is not such a place. In Day 1, everyone pretty much has to acknowledge that their opinion is subject to change. I'm not going to develop Tunnel Vision about it.

No, I'd prefer no list.

Which is why we're still arguing.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Thank you for actually arguing the point instead of insulting me.

 

[Moronik]

48+ hours

request melancholy prod

~Ronike

 

[Moronik]

i'm gonna let my partner take this one, but I implore you to look at FFVII mafia day 5 or 6 if you want to see a case of small things adding up. Ronike ripped Frozenflame a new one with almost entirely metagaming, a bad trap, and wifom. He was right and if ff weren't such a smooth devil, he would have been dead.

~Marshy

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm not saying they don't, because they do (I am saying one big thing can work just as well though). I'm saying that it won't happen because MM posted a suspicion list. I'm saying if it'll happen with or without it.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

While I'm thinking about it,

Unvote

I still would guess SquirtleSquad, Kevin, and possibly Melancholy/Cacti are wolves, but I'm not going to be able to garner enough support at this juncture.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is absurd. Ryker you can't possibly figure out who the "wolves" are a week into D1 when you don't know the majority of the players.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

But I can say who I suspect. That's my call at this point in the game and the lynches I would support. It is tentative to change, just like everything else on Day 1.

 

[Moronik]

No. There are too many variables for that to be reliable and the town is bound to disagree. The list is not used so the town can create a consensus on every single player. It's used, as I said before, as a springboard. Generally the town doesn't discuss the top part of the list so long as they don't think that someone there is scum. That narrows it down to about 5 players and the wolves are forced to pick between. Whoop-ti-do. They hit a townie. That happens most nights.

"used as a springboard" is a terrible reason to do something. for all i know you could be a traitor saying "hey guys hit X" and its just unnecessary regardless because you can push the people not on your town list without giving scum a better idea of who a townie trusts. you can say that it's narrowed to 5 players but hey dont give scum an inch

If you go your way with the random choice among the top 3, then that only adds to the doc's chance of being successful. Hell, when the mafia begins figuring things like roles out they aren't likely to care who's most town according to one guy. They're gonna care who is the biggest threat. Seers, detectives, doctors, etc.

so if scum doesnt care about your town list because power roles are becoming evident then why would the doc? it's day 1 and the ideal situation is to not hit power roles. since scum are most in the dark today now is about the worst time you can post that list because they can settle for someone whos generally trusted

Also, it's not like there's going to be a new list revealed every phase. Day 1 and late game when discussion has reached a standstill with the town out of targets are when the list is useful.

no. those are the absolute worst times. d1 for reasons above and lategame because town shouldnt be out of targets at that point because well have the most information then. look at this exchange. yes its been going on for a while but i feel like this is more a playstyle difference than anything

That's a guarantee I can't take on your word alone. Give me all those little points then (and BS on that part too. One big point can be enough as well, but that's neither here nor there).

i dont know what you mean by this

If I say I trust X, Y, and Z and you think I'm wrong, you can help revise my judgment. Now I can some situations where you want to withold who you trust. Day 1 is not such a place. In Day 1, everyone pretty much has to acknowledge that their opinion is subject to change. I'm not going to develop Tunnel Vision about it.

covered this

we're still arguing.

this is definitely getting pushed past the point of diminishing returns. can you not agree to consistently just give us an idea of who you think is scum as opposed to what alignment you think everyone is?

I still would guess SquirtleSquad, Kevin, and possibly Melancholy/Cacti are wolves, but I'm not going to be able to garner enough support at this juncture.

please dont do this. if you think someone is scum and would like support to vote/wagon one of them then tell us why regardless of how youre perceived of by other players. for the record we agree that cacti is suspect

vote cacti

~Ronike

 

[mentosman8]

48+ hours

request melancholy prod

~Ronike

Haha thanks Ronike, was just gonna go look for prod-eligible people and you saved me the trouble on one at least.

SquirtleSquad(half of you isn't V/LA) and Melancholy have been prodded!

//Correction: Have just received request from Melancholy to be replaced, contacting Chaco.

 

[Moronik]

Vote count!

Magnificent Marth(4): Rainemuzi, Blue Yoshi, Scumfever, magnificentmarth
Ryker(5): ChiboSempai, SquirtleSquad, Gheb, KevinM, Cacti
SquirtleSquad(1): Ryker
Not Voting(2): moronik, Melancholy

seriously mm. unvote yourself and use it on someone you think is scum

~frozenflame

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What frozenflame hijacking the hydra? 0_o

Unvote Vote Cacti

 

[~Radiance~]

This post right here confirms to me we have to lynch one of them.

Please look at the bolded and tell me we are not dealing with something a lot more strange then just two players that circlejerk each other.

Basically acts as if they're a ****ing masonry for god sakes.

Also wanting to use our only deadline extension on D1 is a giant facepalm.

Lynch one of them.

Would rather lynch Ryker at this point for his blatant buddying and admitting to it as well.

God if we're in a good position go MM day 2 cause if what Ryker says is true then if we lynch either one of them the other is going to act like a detrimental *******.

Im going to have to disagree with this. I think that Ryker has had a slip but i dont think he's a wolf. His playstyle (which we have hopefully moved away from) is geared towards trying to bring out people suspicions and has only landed fingers at him because he's made unwarnted assumptions of who the wolves are and who he is allying with. Again i think this is a folly and is just loetting the wolves sit by idly. Blatantly claiming that the town will be introuble if we lynch him or mm just seems like something a wolf wouldnt do, it seems like a last ditch effort a townie would throw out in anger for being singled out.

 

[~Radiance~]

What frozenflame hijacking the hydra? 0_o

Unvote Vote Cacti

sorry for tangent but frozenflame bring back good ol chrono cross memories haha.

 

[Trillion]

This is absurd. Ryker you can't possibly figure out who the "wolves" are a week into D1 when you don't know the majority of the players.

If you don't know who the wolves are then why are you voting me and why are you not telling this to everyone else who has voted anybody? Invalid argument is invalid. You can guess at who the wolves are all you like at any point in time.

 

[Trillion]

God if we're in a good position go MM day 2 cause if what Ryker says is true then if we lynch either one of them the other is going to act like a detrimental *******.

I hope people read what I have to say about this particular quote and actually give it some though rather than disregard me this time.

So, far this guy has said my list is detrimental because it helps the wolves make night kill choices correct? Now, Kevin is suggesting that we set up 2 lynches for consecutive days on Day 1. If we set up a lynch in advance, then if it would be a mislynch, then there is no reason for the wolves to kill that person. I.e. in this case, he wanted to arrange to have me night killed on Day 2, so the wolves already know, that they would have no reason to kill me tonight because the town would mislynch me on Day 2.

The same guy who is mad at me for helping the wolves make a night kill choice wanted the town to agree to tomorrows lynch and help the wolves make a night kill choice. It's completely contradictory.

Vote Kevin

 

[mentosman8]

Macman replaces Melancholy

 

[#HBC | Mac]

NOT SCUM YES

i dont even know who im replacing

moronik, SS and Kevin tell me who to vote

dont really have much time to read the thread today, due to lack of internet in my apartment, but ill try to get to it tomorrow

 

[#HBC | Mac]

oo ninja ok

 

[KevinM]

Vote one of these two ****tards before I replace out.

Can't believe MM claimed Watcher D1.

Next time new players join up that have played for a while on other sites count me out.

They're to busy sucking each others ***** rather then playing the game.

**** rykers got the shaft so far down his throat he hasn't spoken a word of town over the gurgling insanity he's posted for a week.

 

[KevinM]

Also THIS IS TWICE Ryker has pointed out roles that don't exist, if you read his response to my Masons post he said

"maybe we are"

MM then proceeds to claim Watcher.

Ryker is so ****ing scummy i can't believe it.

 

[KevinM]

It's ok though MM don't look at all the garbage your buddy has posted, after all your friendship is what matters most not the game better protect him and gang up on me for being mean to him.

He ****ing tried to throw an inkling that you guys were masons, no red flag for you?