We all know what WIFOM is. We've used it several times in this thread. In the end why DEAL with the wifom by putting all thoes thoughts out in the first place. If you don't put all that crap out to begin with, theres no WIFOM case to deal with.
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Boondock Saints Mafia(Day 5 begins)
- Thread starter mentosman8
- Start date
EBWOP: stop being dumb and thinking the way you play is the only correct way to play. its only hindering the town.
Trillion
Smash Ace
I figured you'd seen it before. There is always a WIFOM in every case. This one is no exception. Every night kill could be looked at as a WIFOM case even when nobody makes a suspicion list. I.E. Kev voted me today, I might die tonight, does that mean Kev is a wolf? Every single day the same thing applies regardless of whether or not a suspicion list has been posted.
Trillion
Smash Ace
The way i am playing the game IS correct. As you saw, BlueYoshi reacted to my suspicion list in a rather suspicious way. Drawing out reactions that help the town determine who is mafia and who is town can never hurt.
Trillion
Smash Ace
I'm glad you've realized the flaw in your argument. Now, that you have, hopefully we can move on.
your stupidity has no bounds.
unvote BY vote: MM
unvote BY vote: MM
Trillion
Smash Ace
Every day you have the exact same issue of who killed who and why. Making a suspicion list does not change that.
Vote Count!
Magnificent Marth(4): Rainemuzi, Blue Yoshi, Cacti, Scumfever
Ryker(4): ChiboSempai, SquirtleSquad, Gheb, KevinM
SquirtleSquad(1): Ryker
KevinM(1): magnificentmarth
Not Voting(2): moronik, Melancholy
Deadline is Saturday, January 23rd at 11:59PM central
Magnificent Marth(4): Rainemuzi, Blue Yoshi, Cacti, Scumfever
Ryker(4): ChiboSempai, SquirtleSquad, Gheb, KevinM
SquirtleSquad(1): Ryker
KevinM(1): magnificentmarth
Not Voting(2): moronik, Melancholy
Deadline is Saturday, January 23rd at 11:59PM central
This could be directed to any of you as well.
You guys are persisting that you are playing the only correct way. We bring a new style in and we're labled stupid. Any time we try and explain why we do what we do, we just get ridiculed. We don't get a chance to argue because you just say "lopl u dum" and try and move on.
Scumfever, you claim that his stupidity has no bounds, what was wrong with his argument. It's completely solid from every angle I can see.
If we're going to have to have this argument eventually, let's get it out of the way. If we have to ask for a deadline extension to deal with it, we can see if Mentos will oblige. Personally, I think we have plenty of time to deal with it and then move on. If you lynch him, I'll do the same things you call stupid. Ditto if you lynch me. It's been said repeatedly that we're being lynched for what you perceive as terrible play. Do you want to lynch two innocents and lose because you couldn't take the time to reach a consensus with a party that doesn't agree with your methods?
I'm beginning to get pissed. That means it's time to call everyone to calm down and try and fix the god**** problem.
Scumfever, you claim that his stupidity has no bounds, what was wrong with his argument. It's completely solid from every angle I can see.
If we're going to have to have this argument eventually, let's get it out of the way. If we have to ask for a deadline extension to deal with it, we can see if Mentos will oblige. Personally, I think we have plenty of time to deal with it and then move on. If you lynch him, I'll do the same things you call stupid. Ditto if you lynch me. It's been said repeatedly that we're being lynched for what you perceive as terrible play. Do you want to lynch two innocents and lose because you couldn't take the time to reach a consensus with a party that doesn't agree with your methods?
I'm beginning to get pissed. That means it's time to call everyone to calm down and try and fix the god**** problem.
~Radiance~
Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
but what if it turns out that BY isnt scum at all? then you have people coming off on false accusations and in turn possible executing townies for no reason besides them having on slip that other capitalize on and exploit.
If what you brought out in BY was true then sure it could help identify a possible mafia, but by saying that you are playing the game the right way when it is in fact very so not the right way just makes you look arrogant.
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
Detailed analysis of why you both suck later. Spoiler alert: it ain't because of your playstyles, it's because you are too stubborn to realize swf play is considerably different from allisbrawl and the like. More later. Sorry I'm not on the hydra account Mentos, but I can't get on from my phone and felt this needed to be posted.
Ronike, I realize there are more ways to play this game. You apparently do too. In something like an MMO where there is most certainly one build that works infinitely better than any other for your class, then I would be fine with listening. This is not though. This is mafia. A psychological game where there are multiple approaches with each one having merit.
I realize that you guys play differently. I don't understand your logic. When I try to ask questions as to why my logic is faulty, I'm greeted with this:
tl:dr
Neither side wants to give.
I realize that you guys play differently. I don't understand your logic. When I try to ask questions as to why my logic is faulty, I'm greeted with this:
tl:dr
Neither side wants to give.
You have yet to convince me that it is wrong or detrimental at this stage in the game.
Cacti
Smash Journeyman
Alright, I was talking about other people voting you two.
Still, it was a horrible bit of metagaming.
No, I was talking about magnificantmarth in this post:
In this post, mainly the bolded, some of his reasoning is OMGUS. Not as in voting someone back that voted you, but as in "I know I'm town, and you're pushing a lynch on me, so you must be scum". In the bolded, he states that KevinM is mafia trying to push a quicklynch on him; however, this is assuming that he is town, and is OMGUS reasoning. Not really a big scumtell, maybe even a null tell, but it's bad play.
I never said in that post that I wanted to lynch you for your play, I said that other people wanted to lynch you because of your play, and that I wanted you dead. This is just bad wording on my part, as when I say I want you dead, I mean that I just really don't like how you're playing right now and you would be better off dead, but I wouldn't waste a lynch on you for that.
There's nothing wrong with voting somebody that voted you as long as you give good reasoning that's not OMGUS reasoning. Am I not making sense?
Cacti
Smash Journeyman
Yay ninjas.
~Radiance~
Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
at this point we cannot truly say who is scum and who is town, we can only guess off the limited amount of info weve gathered so far. why it dosent work though, is that while it tries to bring put the scum it can also lead to convicting the inocents who just dont know how to deal with it. When people get pressured because of early bandwagoning and cant defend themselves it can lead to a quick lynch and other players just wanting to have someone die already and get the day over with
Trillion
Smash Ace
I don't recall ever once saying that my way is the ONLY correct way, just that I am playing correctly. Don't put words in my mouth.
Trillion
Smash Ace
Where you play does not change the fact that the game still works the same way. Whether I have a different style from you does not determine the effectiveness of my play.
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
What the hell are you on? Of course different styles are better or worse! Are you telling me a person that limits themselves to using only b button attacks in brawl will be anywhere neR as effective as someone taking advantage of all of the ats and everything? Because lemme tell you, the latter is much more effective...
Trillion
Smash Ace
Yes, you are making sense, but I believe that you misunderstand my argument for Kevin. It's not supposed to be that I am town so he must be scum. Obviously, townies are sometimes going to be suspicious of each other. I certainly wouldn't say that when I had 5 votes, that all 5 of them must be scum. My reasoning was this:
His reasons for voting us are not consistent. He keeps changing them to suit the moment so that he can keep justifying his vote. It wasn't supposed to be an OMGUS vote. The part you were bolding was supposed to show that if he were wolf, then pushing a quick lynch would make sense because obviously a quick lynch doesn't benefit the town as much.
Trillion
Smash Ace
What I meant to say is where I developed my style is not what determines its effectiveness. Obviously there are good and bad ways to play. But when I can defend my actions with sound logic, then our differences become a matter of opinion and not a matter of scum or town.
My list might not seem like the best move to you, but I think I gave good reason as to why I think it is and why I think it's not dangerous. While I disagree that your reasoning is best, I do understand it and respect the opinion. I'm not telling everyone else that they play wrongly for not playing how I do, I simply ask that rather than label me scum for not doing it your way, that you ask yourselves if my way might have some merit even if you disagree that it is best.
No, I'm not saying they aren't better and worse. I'm saying they each have merit. You've yet to convince me that mine is worse.
Trillion
Smash Ace
Then it means we messed up. Do you mean to tell me that my way is wrong because a mislynch could result? If so, does that mean that your way has NEVER resulted in a mislynch? If it has, then by the same reasoning, wouldn't that mean that your way should also be rejected?
I do think my way is right. I never said that any other way was wrong, so any appearance of arrogance is a complete misunderstanding. There can be multiple right ways and there can be multiple wrong ways. I've seen plenty of wolves get lynched without full lists being posted and I've seen plenty of wolves get lynched when multiple full lists have been posted. Both can work and if my way DID find result in a successful lynch of a mafia BY, then would you still say that I am "so very not the right way?"
Exactly. We cannot truly say at this point, so I do not see it helping the wolves.
The quicklynch scenario you're suggesting is easily stopped by a couple townies with the brains to wait for a minute. Everything can lead to the possible mislynch of a townie.
The list also gives the town a springboard for discussion:
"Why is X so high on the list?"
"I don't think Y should be so high. Here's why."
"I thought Z was suspicious. Why is he so low?"
I think discussion is a pro-town thing at all times. It forces wolves to pick a side or else they get nailed for constantly sitting on the fence.
This is good. A chance to explain the why of our logic versus your's is much better than a facedesk image.
~Radiance~
Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
hmmmm ok
i can see where your going with this.
But how well it works on bringing the wolves out needs to be greater than the way it confuses the town and causes a ruckus, otherwise its only helping the wolves.
I have a feeling we're causing a ruckus today with or without it.
Moronik
Ronike|marshy
Ok, so here's the deal with the town list:
A) It tells scum who town explicitly trusts, even more so when we debate said list. In a game where scum relies on town NOT trusting each other in order to win (night kills are nearly a constant, mislynches are a variable) the smart kill is who the town trusts.
B) Yes, this list also gives the doctor a list of who the town trusts, but then it also tells the mafia who the doctor will protect, thus allowing them to hit someone else, thus making night kills an ACTUAL constant. Plus theres all the "What if the most trusted is doc? discussion. Well, in that case, more likely than not we have a dead doc.
C) It allows for the framing of a town. We don't want that kind of WIFOM floating around. Some WIFOM is good, but any avoidable WIFOM is best avoided so as to not confuse issues further.
D) It introduces discussion. Yes, this is true, but as I have stated with my previous 3 points, this is not discussion we want. We're better off discussing things like this. Playstyle and what seems off.
Now then, theres your unwillingness to adapt. Look, mafia is different where you play it. Mafiascum uses formulas, we use hardcore WIFOM a lot of the time along with discussion and what not. Two entirely different ways of playing. And I'm sure allisbrawl plays completely different as well, especially since you said its in the "silly stuff" section.
Now in a different environment, you have to adapt. Which thusfar you have been completely unwilling to do. True, we may not be going about it the best way, but your style of play pretty much plays right into the way our scum tend to play.
Between the town lists, the willingness to clear someone pretty much just cause you know them (a personal pet peeve), and arrogance tends to make people even more unwilling to listen and or help.
Oh and this:
Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, you both are buddying like crazy. Each other especially, but posts like Ryker's right after I said "I'm going to try to help you learn how to play" that are basically flattery and saying "I see how you are more reasonable that everyone else" qualify as well. This mindless buddying is seen as a sign of scumminess, as it creates a subconcious response to try to defend those that were nice to you early on, something you want as scum. Please try to stop.
Also, I realize this is likely not your fault, but you both are sucking up way too much attention with your constant bickering and omnipresent quadruple posts. Its likely allowing scum to fade into the background. Hell, when half of the page is taken up by 2 people, everyone else is going to be in the background regardless.
Anyways, thats what I got. If other want to add on, feel free. If you got other questions, also feel free to ask.
~Ronike
A) It tells scum who town explicitly trusts, even more so when we debate said list. In a game where scum relies on town NOT trusting each other in order to win (night kills are nearly a constant, mislynches are a variable) the smart kill is who the town trusts.
B) Yes, this list also gives the doctor a list of who the town trusts, but then it also tells the mafia who the doctor will protect, thus allowing them to hit someone else, thus making night kills an ACTUAL constant. Plus theres all the "What if the most trusted is doc? discussion. Well, in that case, more likely than not we have a dead doc.
C) It allows for the framing of a town. We don't want that kind of WIFOM floating around. Some WIFOM is good, but any avoidable WIFOM is best avoided so as to not confuse issues further.
D) It introduces discussion. Yes, this is true, but as I have stated with my previous 3 points, this is not discussion we want. We're better off discussing things like this. Playstyle and what seems off.
Now then, theres your unwillingness to adapt. Look, mafia is different where you play it. Mafiascum uses formulas, we use hardcore WIFOM a lot of the time along with discussion and what not. Two entirely different ways of playing. And I'm sure allisbrawl plays completely different as well, especially since you said its in the "silly stuff" section.
Now in a different environment, you have to adapt. Which thusfar you have been completely unwilling to do. True, we may not be going about it the best way, but your style of play pretty much plays right into the way our scum tend to play.
Between the town lists, the willingness to clear someone pretty much just cause you know them (a personal pet peeve), and arrogance tends to make people even more unwilling to listen and or help.
Oh and this:
in response to "your way is not the ONLY way to play." pretty much means you are saying your way is the only correct way.
Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, you both are buddying like crazy. Each other especially, but posts like Ryker's right after I said "I'm going to try to help you learn how to play" that are basically flattery and saying "I see how you are more reasonable that everyone else" qualify as well. This mindless buddying is seen as a sign of scumminess, as it creates a subconcious response to try to defend those that were nice to you early on, something you want as scum. Please try to stop.
Also, I realize this is likely not your fault, but you both are sucking up way too much attention with your constant bickering and omnipresent quadruple posts. Its likely allowing scum to fade into the background. Hell, when half of the page is taken up by 2 people, everyone else is going to be in the background regardless.
Anyways, thats what I got. If other want to add on, feel free. If you got other questions, also feel free to ask.
~Ronike
Thank you. I'll be back in a bit. Playing Wi-Fi tourney atm. Double C.Falcon is working it's way up the Loser's.
Moronik
Ronike|marshy
just wanna emphasize this and request that you guys condense your posts and/or use multiple quotes in one post if need be. see a few string of posts responding to 1 quote each and stuff like that. to put things in perspective:
magnificentmarth 46
Ryker 44
Scumfever 28
ChiboSempai 19
KevinM 19
~Ronike
~Radiance~
Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
lets just try to move on from peoples playstyles, it isnt good scumtell and is giving the wolves time to sit on the fence.
Condensing posts I can and will do. You're reasoning about that list I will address when I have more time. Atm I'm going to bed.
I'm all for this, but where would you suggest we go then because the two players with the most votes do not look like options I like.
One thing I also wanted to point out before I go that I forgot:
I am buddying. I really don't care about it. It shows where my suspicions lie and who I think is town (which we're still going over). I'm not going to be blinded by it. My opinion can change. Until something surfaces to change said opinion, I really don't care that you know who I trust.
I am buddying. I really don't care about it. It shows where my suspicions lie and who I think is town (which we're still going over). I'm not going to be blinded by it. My opinion can change. Until something surfaces to change said opinion, I really don't care that you know who I trust.
~Radiance~
Meow-Meow, Choco-Chow
knowing who you trust at any given time shouldnt be something that other players should know, and isnt bad that others dont know. If we are to assume who some people trust the town could be totally blind sided by the wolves who may have been trying to steer the townies in the wrong direction by planting incorrect alliances from the start.
Right I agree with this. I'm bothered by Cacti / Melancholy not contributing or in the latter's case even refuse to contribute. Then again Ryker has shown some pretty scummy behaviour - if I had to lynch one of him / MM I'd go with him. I think MM is just unhelptown trying to get a grip though it's hard to tell if you don't know how a player usually plays.
This post right here confirms to me we have to lynch one of them.
Please look at the bolded and tell me we are not dealing with something a lot more strange then just two players that circlejerk each other.
Basically acts as if they're a ****ing masonry for god sakes.
Also wanting to use our only deadline extension on D1 is a giant facepalm.
Lynch one of them.
Would rather lynch Ryker at this point for his blatant buddying and admitting to it as well.
God if we're in a good position go MM day 2 cause if what Ryker says is true then if we lynch either one of them the other is going to act like a detrimental *******.
Cacti
Smash Journeyman
Unvote Vote: Ryker