Spyro
Smash Ace
Who do you think are the top 12 best teams characters?
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Best teams characters?
- Thread starter Spyro
- Start date
King5280
Smash Journeyman
1.fox
2.puff
3.-12. other characters and stuff
and i loled at that pic ^^^
2.puff
3.-12. other characters and stuff
and i loled at that pic ^^^
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
/thread. MESSAGE IS TOO SHORT
Beat!
Smash Master
S
Fox
Puff
A
Sheik, Falcon, Peach in some order
Falco
B
Pika, Ganon, Marth, Doc, Luigi (?) in some order
bunch of other characters
Fox
Puff
A
Sheik, Falcon, Peach in some order
Falco
B
Pika, Ganon, Marth, Doc, Luigi (?) in some order
bunch of other characters
Wake
Smash Master
Peach is good in teams.
stelzig
Smash Lord
I believe the MBR made a teams tierlist a few months ago, lol. IIRC they placed sheik rather low and falcon really high (3rd or something).
Looks like people still rate puff extremely highly in teams because of that rest. Still disagree with that placing.
Looks like people still rate puff extremely highly in teams because of that rest. Still disagree with that placing.
Beat!
Smash Master
Rest is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being the only reason. At least in my view.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
lo lno
stelzig
Smash Lord
Rest is just the argument i'm used to seeing. I think her floatiness and slowness, plus people not having to care about her camping with Bair (just go and **** her teammate then) are pretty considerable disadvantages. Knock the floaty character away and go to town! 
Here is the mbr tier: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301867 (a few months = 8 ^x^)
(I also have yet to be impressed by any swede copping out to puff in teams (only one in particular I remember is GsE, but i'm sure i've seen more do it), but I suppose they indeed just aren't that good with puff in the first place, lol)
Here is the mbr tier: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301867 (a few months = 8 ^x^)
(I also have yet to be impressed by any swede copping out to puff in teams (only one in particular I remember is GsE, but i'm sure i've seen more do it), but I suppose they indeed just aren't that good with puff in the first place, lol)
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Lol @ people saying Falco is better in teams than Peach. That is just flat out incorrect.
But yeah, I think Fox, Puff, Peach/Sheik, Falcon, Pika, Ganon. Probably in that order.
But yeah, I think Fox, Puff, Peach/Sheik, Falcon, Pika, Ganon. Probably in that order.
Massive
Smash Champion
Even if Jiggs didn't have rest, the ledgegimping ability alone would be more than enough to make him a viable team member. Good jiggs players take forever to kill in teams and can deliver safe buildup damage and huge punishes to others with little difficulty.Rest is just the argument i'm used to seeing. I think her floatiness and slowness, plus people not having to care about her camping with Bair (just go and **** her teammate then) are pretty considerable disadvantages. Knock the floaty character away and go to town!
Nobody camps with bair in teams, that's silly.
Also, since people can't afford focus completely on jiggs in teams, you can throw out sneaky rests more frequently with fewer consequences.
stelzig
Smash Lord
I never said jiggs wasn't viable in teams. I just think some people overrate how good/broken she is in it.
leffen
Smash Champion
I got your back stelzig.
Jiggs has a lot harder to get rests when your opponent plays to prevent it, which 99% of players don't (they have very little exp vs jiggs in teams overall)
Grab-Rest is also EXTREMELY ****ing overrated
Most people don't even know that grabbing->any attack makes the attack do HALF DAMAGE and have less knockback...
Jigglypuff is also one of the characters who gets team combo'd the easiest and just double teaming overall, I think if people actually put real effort into teams people would realize how she isnt really THAT good in teams.
This is not to mention that shes terrible with like, 90% of the cast.
Jiggs has a lot harder to get rests when your opponent plays to prevent it, which 99% of players don't (they have very little exp vs jiggs in teams overall)
Grab-Rest is also EXTREMELY ****ing overrated
Most people don't even know that grabbing->any attack makes the attack do HALF DAMAGE and have less knockback...
Jigglypuff is also one of the characters who gets team combo'd the easiest and just double teaming overall, I think if people actually put real effort into teams people would realize how she isnt really THAT good in teams.
This is not to mention that shes terrible with like, 90% of the cast.
Leffen: But with your opinions on DI and stuff you are dead anyway against a Puff team. One thing that make Puffs team combo game extra strong is her ability to cover both the stage and the offstage game.
Grab to rest is overrated because of the reasons you said for sure but her team combo game with rest is REALLY underrated. To be honest I think Darc is the only puff that is/was even close to some of the potencial puff had with rest. People in general are just to bad at playing with Puff and I think that's why people really don't understand how good she is.
And like you said (IRL not this thread) me and Hack never team and even without that we were able to rest both of you and Zoler a lot of times every game when we played Puff/Falco (More often against Zoler but it's not like we didn't used it against you either).
A really fun thing with teams is the combinations to be effective with your team8. Puff is really good at this with both the rest part but also the of stage game. Puffs edgeguard is good but she lacks in speed in singles in some situations and that's why the edgeguards is not perfect (still really good though). In teams it is way easier to cover everything around the edge to if you have a team8 that know HOW to stay on the ****ing edge in some situations and let the puff take them easily.
People don't play teams enough (in general) to understand the entire thing with teams I think.
Puff is in my opinion the best char in teams with Fox as a close second.
Grab to rest is overrated because of the reasons you said for sure but her team combo game with rest is REALLY underrated. To be honest I think Darc is the only puff that is/was even close to some of the potencial puff had with rest. People in general are just to bad at playing with Puff and I think that's why people really don't understand how good she is.
And like you said (IRL not this thread) me and Hack never team and even without that we were able to rest both of you and Zoler a lot of times every game when we played Puff/Falco (More often against Zoler but it's not like we didn't used it against you either).
A really fun thing with teams is the combinations to be effective with your team8. Puff is really good at this with both the rest part but also the of stage game. Puffs edgeguard is good but she lacks in speed in singles in some situations and that's why the edgeguards is not perfect (still really good though). In teams it is way easier to cover everything around the edge to if you have a team8 that know HOW to stay on the ****ing edge in some situations and let the puff take them easily.
People don't play teams enough (in general) to understand the entire thing with teams I think.
Puff is in my opinion the best char in teams with Fox as a close second.
stelzig
Smash Lord
I can't really say i'm good at comboing puff in teams, but I saw what you and nizro did to Oskar at terebi so i'll accept that point if you say so. Even more reason to think puff in teams is overrated. 
leffen
Smash Champion
Sigh, I'm not even gonna debate this topic with you since you're so incredibly biased on the topic (sad but true, and you know it, even if I did crush your arguments you would still believe Puff to be the best in singles and teams)
Team combos into rests are also really overrated, they will ALWAYS require bad DI and bad support (both of which, zoler is objectively goddamn awful at). Jigglypuff is way too slow to cover multiple DI's and you know this.
Sure, you can force your opponent to never tech into puff and you can force them to never DI into her which makes it easy for your opponent to follow up but these followups aren't really that scary.
Again, sure, she is good at doing 2v1 edgeguards where you assume that your teammate can just cover the edge without any pressure from the other teammate, but what top tier ISNT good at that?
Its always fun when you use Darc because while he "gay'd" you and aniolas he didn't do **** except for that.
I also think you're forgetting that Jigglypuff sucks at killing (outside of rest), sucks at dealing damage and dies at 50
Team combos into rests are also really overrated, they will ALWAYS require bad DI and bad support (both of which, zoler is objectively goddamn awful at). Jigglypuff is way too slow to cover multiple DI's and you know this.
Sure, you can force your opponent to never tech into puff and you can force them to never DI into her which makes it easy for your opponent to follow up but these followups aren't really that scary.
Again, sure, she is good at doing 2v1 edgeguards where you assume that your teammate can just cover the edge without any pressure from the other teammate, but what top tier ISNT good at that?
Its always fun when you use Darc because while he "gay'd" you and aniolas he didn't do **** except for that.
I also think you're forgetting that Jigglypuff sucks at killing (outside of rest), sucks at dealing damage and dies at 50
I can except Puff to be third in singles behind the spacies but not lower then that (think she is first but I can see her as third).
You seems to think that every singles DI can make a follow up impossible and that is not true. Melee is not like SF but a lot of stuff is guarrantee in this game. If you DI into puff you get ***** and if you don't DI you get *****. Only option is off stage and puff is really good at playing that game.
2vs1 is not a valid point cause you don't win because a char is good in 2vs1 cause that's a lead you have worked on.
Use Darc cause he won against us?
Not hard to understand you are a new school. Darc and Scar placed 2nd at Genesis and did beat Mango/lucky easy (especially second game) and also beat m2k/Jman in WF so how is that "he didn't do **** except from that".
I already knew before me and Aniolas played against Darc/Hax that Darc is/was incredible. Don't use arguments about players preformence when you don't know **** about it.
You seems to think that every singles DI can make a follow up impossible and that is not true. Melee is not like SF but a lot of stuff is guarrantee in this game. If you DI into puff you get ***** and if you don't DI you get *****. Only option is off stage and puff is really good at playing that game.
2vs1 is not a valid point cause you don't win because a char is good in 2vs1 cause that's a lead you have worked on.
Use Darc cause he won against us?
Not hard to understand you are a new school. Darc and Scar placed 2nd at Genesis and did beat Mango/lucky easy (especially second game) and also beat m2k/Jman in WF so how is that "he didn't do **** except from that".
I already knew before me and Aniolas played against Darc/Hax that Darc is/was incredible. Don't use arguments about players preformence when you don't know **** about it.
King5280
Smash Journeyman
Damn armada goin in
leffen
Smash Champion
Here you assume that its 2v1.
If you DI a shine to the left when puff is standing on the right, maybe you'll get combo'd by the falco, but you won't get killed. Sure, you get "*****" but when you insert the fact that teams aren't 2v1 (which you use for every puff example) you could EASILY contain the damage done by the shine by the player DI'ing left and his teammate punishing the falco if he chooses to follow.
This is also assuming that you are playing as Fox/Falcon/Falco, the three easiest characters to rest.
There are OBVIOUSLY situations where a rest is more or less guaranteed, but these situations are so much harder to set up in a 2v2 game that the other characters kill moves are so much easier to land out values the fact that rest kills earlier. This is without including that REST HAS ****TONS OF LAG. Sure, if your teammate is there, he can save you with a jab, but a lot of the times he can't (assuming that the teammate is skilled at the game, he could easily punish the falcos setup of the rest and then just kill Jiggs at 20% while the falco recovers).
YOU where the one spamming these points, I was flaming you for it. Please reread the argument -_-
Darkrain and Silent Spectre placed 2nd at pound 4, which was bigger, more recent.
Sure, Darc placed in the top, but how is that different from Kage doing the same thing now with Ganon? Objectively, Kage has done much better than Darc.
Darc isn't what you are for peach and what hungrybox is for puff (in singles).
He never won anything. He placed high, just as the far larger amount of spacies also did. I'd argue for him just being a good teams players rather than his character carrying him and he was definitely not at a level that Mango/Hbox puff aren't close to so all your spamming about "omg jiggs is op just noone plays like darc" is just silly.
ruhtraeel
Smash Ace
Roy is great in teams
Zelda is high tier
Zelda is high tier
Leffen: Maybe it was a bit unclear (sorry if it was) but a lot of those scenarios I tried to describe happens in 2vs2 too (it did against you and Zoler too).
A lot of team combos in this game excist cause one of the players have the wrong position. This can be cause they are offstage/ don't read correct exc. I know a lot of situations when you play in teams 2 where team combos starts in 2vs2 that in a lot of situations could have been a rest (if you/your team8 was a puff).
Yeah the shine thing assume on fastfallers for the most parts but ofc you mix those things up if you play against other chars. It feels like with your kind of thinking about teams (correcy me If Im wrong) no team combos should happen cause your team8 should always be there and if not you can always DI away (the last part of the question is more based on our friendlis in teams when you talk about DI from team combos).
No offense to Darkrain/SS but m2k/Jman was DQ and they took not a set from Mango/Lucky either.
Kage is really impressive in teams to for sure but I think both m2k/Axe are closer to the top then Scar was back at Genesis.
Darc never getting carried just cause he played puff. Darc has A LOT of skills in this game and he is really good at reading situations in this game for sure. But yeah Darc is not as good as Hbox/Mango in singles and I have never tried to say that either but I honestly think he was better in his prime with jiggs in teams then Hbox/Mango
A lot of team combos in this game excist cause one of the players have the wrong position. This can be cause they are offstage/ don't read correct exc. I know a lot of situations when you play in teams 2 where team combos starts in 2vs2 that in a lot of situations could have been a rest (if you/your team8 was a puff).
Yeah the shine thing assume on fastfallers for the most parts but ofc you mix those things up if you play against other chars. It feels like with your kind of thinking about teams (correcy me If Im wrong) no team combos should happen cause your team8 should always be there and if not you can always DI away (the last part of the question is more based on our friendlis in teams when you talk about DI from team combos).
No offense to Darkrain/SS but m2k/Jman was DQ and they took not a set from Mango/Lucky either.
Kage is really impressive in teams to for sure but I think both m2k/Axe are closer to the top then Scar was back at Genesis.
Darc never getting carried just cause he played puff. Darc has A LOT of skills in this game and he is really good at reading situations in this game for sure. But yeah Darc is not as good as Hbox/Mango in singles and I have never tried to say that either but I honestly think he was better in his prime with jiggs in teams then Hbox/Mango
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I think teams tier list is
Top tier:
1) Puff
2) Fox
2nd tier:
3) Peach
4) Sheik (maybe 3rd)
5) Falco
-Axe's pikachu makes me think pikachu is really good in teams too, although idk where i'd place him tier wise
armada ill disagree; I think mango's puff is the best in teams for sure, just not against your peach
Top tier:
1) Puff
2) Fox
2nd tier:
3) Peach
4) Sheik (maybe 3rd)
5) Falco
-Axe's pikachu makes me think pikachu is really good in teams too, although idk where i'd place him tier wise
armada ill disagree; I think mango's puff is the best in teams for sure, just not against your peach
Yeah the last part can be true cause Mangos puff is not that good against Peach. I also know that Darc was SUPER rusty when you guys played (could not guess it was him if I only saw the matches and not what players that was included).
But yeah Mango being much better in singles overall and haveing the abillity to out-play more players maybe makes him to a better choice but Darc was at least really close.
But yeah Mango being much better in singles overall and haveing the abillity to out-play more players maybe makes him to a better choice but Darc was at least really close.
Ohsh*t whats going on in this thread XD
I think puff is amazing in teams but fox is still probably better (in NTSC at least), I agree with leffen that it shouldn't be that easy to be rested if you have experience playing vs jigglypuff team.
Though even one rest could be enough to win you the match, because of that puff is in my opinion at the very least 2nd.
Also Armada don't use me as an example, I'm bad at this game.
I think puff is amazing in teams but fox is still probably better (in NTSC at least), I agree with leffen that it shouldn't be that easy to be rested if you have experience playing vs jigglypuff team.
Though even one rest could be enough to win you the match, because of that puff is in my opinion at the very least 2nd.
Also Armada don't use me as an example, I'm bad at this game.
leffen
Smash Champion
"It feels like with your kind of thinking about teams (correcy me If Im wrong) no team combos should happen cause your team8 should always be there and if not you can always DI away"
Wrong, I believe that teamcombos into REST can almost always be avoided with good DI. The other top tiers are all about twice as fast as jiggs and can cover multiple DI's, whereas Jiggs struggles.
You don't seem to understand my argument about Darc, and to be honest, you don't even seem to understand your own argument.
How is Darc soooooooooooooooo different from all the other jigglypuffs (who also always outperform him in doubles except for genesis 1, more than 2 years ago)
If it was that he rested like noone else and that his style was perfect for teams, then rest obviously isn't that good and you're heavily overrating it since he didn't perform that well.
Mango's puff (and Hboxs) is EASILY MUCH MUCH better than Darc ever was.
Also, listing "whos the best in teams" by character and not teams (for example, Fox/fox etc) is ****ing ******** and you should be ashamed for even considering a character (instead of a team) as "the best in teams"
I think that teams is much more even overall and that the best character/team will always change.
For example, I think Jiggs/Fox loses to Fox/Fox and Fox/Falco (possibly double falco) while it ***** peach teams.
Peach (such as Peach/Sheik) teams however **** spacies (esp falco teams) while Fox/Puff **** peach teams.
I think Fox/Falcon beats Fox/Puff too tbh.
Wrong, I believe that teamcombos into REST can almost always be avoided with good DI. The other top tiers are all about twice as fast as jiggs and can cover multiple DI's, whereas Jiggs struggles.
You don't seem to understand my argument about Darc, and to be honest, you don't even seem to understand your own argument.
How is Darc soooooooooooooooo different from all the other jigglypuffs (who also always outperform him in doubles except for genesis 1, more than 2 years ago)
If it was that he rested like noone else and that his style was perfect for teams, then rest obviously isn't that good and you're heavily overrating it since he didn't perform that well.
Mango's puff (and Hboxs) is EASILY MUCH MUCH better than Darc ever was.
Also, listing "whos the best in teams" by character and not teams (for example, Fox/fox etc) is ****ing ******** and you should be ashamed for even considering a character (instead of a team) as "the best in teams"
I think that teams is much more even overall and that the best character/team will always change.
For example, I think Jiggs/Fox loses to Fox/Fox and Fox/Falco (possibly double falco) while it ***** peach teams.
Peach (such as Peach/Sheik) teams however **** spacies (esp falco teams) while Fox/Puff **** peach teams.
I think Fox/Falcon beats Fox/Puff too tbh.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Darc in his prime was pretty freaking incredible yo
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
YL is surprisingly good in teams. Surprise dsmashes, he's excellent at breaking up situations with his mobility and nair, his projectiles, his slow recovery (but not TOO slow) during which a fast teammate can break up an edgegaurd, he's fairly good at saving teammates from falls, and he has a ton of quick and difficult to punish moves. He dies pretty easily though.
Leffen: from what I heard Darc stopped playing for a long time and I don't mean the results nowadays as a part of the prime he once had.
Always outpreform?
When Darc was really good it wasn't many teams that outplaced him especially not if he had a alright team8.
Darc wasn't perfect and will never be but if you at all try to say he wasn't really good at reading situations in teams and also be a really good team player you are really blind tbh.
Yes both Mango and Hbox was better then Darc in singles even when Darc was in his prime but Darc had more understanding for teams then anyone of those had. I guess Mango being much better in singles still can make him to the better choice but I think Darc at least back then realized teams much better and he had some good results with different team8s too.
"who also always outperform him"
So you are saying that everyone that placed better then you at Apex/Genesis 2 in teams are better then you in teams. They have outplaced you 100% of the tournaments you/X have been to so you can't be a better player in teams it have to be impossible if we listen to your own argument.
And the thread is asking for the best CHAR in teams. Not what kind of combinations of chars that makes the strongest team. I also think it would be more fun to talk about what teams that possibly would be the strongest.
And yeah I agree that teams is more even/balanced sience a lot of worse chars also have a better chance since playing support is a huge factor and worse chars (YL for example) becomes WAY better.
Yeah Peach/Sheik rapeing double fox is at least a john so you have something when UGS beat you + someone else =)
Always outpreform?
When Darc was really good it wasn't many teams that outplaced him especially not if he had a alright team8.
Darc wasn't perfect and will never be but if you at all try to say he wasn't really good at reading situations in teams and also be a really good team player you are really blind tbh.
Yes both Mango and Hbox was better then Darc in singles even when Darc was in his prime but Darc had more understanding for teams then anyone of those had. I guess Mango being much better in singles still can make him to the better choice but I think Darc at least back then realized teams much better and he had some good results with different team8s too.
"who also always outperform him"
So you are saying that everyone that placed better then you at Apex/Genesis 2 in teams are better then you in teams. They have outplaced you 100% of the tournaments you/X have been to so you can't be a better player in teams it have to be impossible if we listen to your own argument.
And the thread is asking for the best CHAR in teams. Not what kind of combinations of chars that makes the strongest team. I also think it would be more fun to talk about what teams that possibly would be the strongest.
And yeah I agree that teams is more even/balanced sience a lot of worse chars also have a better chance since playing support is a huge factor and worse chars (YL for example) becomes WAY better.
Yeah Peach/Sheik rapeing double fox is at least a john so you have something when UGS beat you + someone else =)
Massive
Smash Champion
Since all the logic about tier placement in this thread is based on how well a certain combination of characters works together, I think this is a thread about the strongest possible team.
3 Years ago I would've said it was Sheik/Jiggs due to the ease with which grab>rest occurs and how easily both can ledgeguard and zone other characters.
Right now my vote is for Fox/Jiggs is the best team, mostly because of the survivability/recovery both characters have and how easily both jiggs and fox gimp/KO at low %.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I think Puff >> Fox (NEVER has to worry about being gimped, ever, and can go off stage to edge guard with NO risk, where fox loses his laser camping which is his strong singles tool, all of jigglypuff's attributes are strengthened)
and I think Pikachu >> Falcon
Divinokage
Smash Legend
M2k, I think Falco is only good with Fox because Fox can cover his *** pretty well.. other than that I think Falcon/Ganon benefit a lot more with all the other top tiers a lot better because they both are tanks and can summon the bull**** in certain situations which shifts the game VERY quickly.
I also agree Fox/Puff Top 2.
Ok ok, Leffen. I think you should tell that to me and M2k when Mango performed about at least 10 rests on Brinstar. The setups can always be there, I think you underrate the chaos that can happen in teams, it's definitely never cookie cutter. You know just a couple of hits in between a sandwich of 2 players = You can't really know where to DI exactly so those rests can definitely happen at any moment.. it's impossible to have perfect DI to avoid everything. Your ally can't save you all the time and it's definitely no fluke that Hbox + Plup got 2nd in teams at Apex either... Oh and did I mention I got rested by Hbox too and plenty of sets in the past too? I understand that I'm fat and comboable but so does the FFers who are in most teams anyways.
So ya, no matter how you try to see it, you will get rested one way or the other.
I also agree Fox/Puff Top 2.
Ok ok, Leffen. I think you should tell that to me and M2k when Mango performed about at least 10 rests on Brinstar. The setups can always be there, I think you underrate the chaos that can happen in teams, it's definitely never cookie cutter. You know just a couple of hits in between a sandwich of 2 players = You can't really know where to DI exactly so those rests can definitely happen at any moment.. it's impossible to have perfect DI to avoid everything. Your ally can't save you all the time and it's definitely no fluke that Hbox + Plup got 2nd in teams at Apex either... Oh and did I mention I got rested by Hbox too and plenty of sets in the past too? I understand that I'm fat and comboable but so does the FFers who are in most teams anyways.
So ya, no matter how you try to see it, you will get rested one way or the other.
Spyro
Smash Ace
Yes Pika does really well in teams, he's a very flexible character for teams.Where is Luigi on this list? And is Pika really THAT good in teams?
stelzig
Smash Lord
I like how I got told off for saying people used puffs rest as a big reasoning for thinking why puff is so good in teams. Then 3 top players come in and use that argument (with a fourth top player arguing against it). Kage just went ahead and talked about 10 rests being done now.
(actually i'm not sure m2k ever went into the whole rest debate, but i'm sure he would only agree with armada and kage)
(actually i'm not sure m2k ever went into the whole rest debate, but i'm sure he would only agree with armada and kage)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well in 2v2 there's MORE setups as to how rests can happen not less.. It's stupid to think otherwise. lol.