Best Buy Demo Discussion - What do you think of Zelda in Smash 4?

[Toadallstar2]

Found the video where we can see it: http://youtu.be/MpO3vip5FLY?t=10m19s

It really looks better than in Brawl.

I love Brawl's version but I like this too. The down taunt is her wave which is adorable. I wonder what side is, I hope its altered as well.

In regard to combos, idk if these count but I always did (depending on which char I'm against) up smash>up smash>up tilt. dtilt a couple times then dsmash or even fsmash. grab, down, then bair or up smash.

Considering up tilt is weakened, it might not be too hard to do a nair/fair. Or at low %, up smash.

 

[Fujin the unbannable]

Ignore any sort of tier list as of now. We ain't no bottom b***h.[/qoute]




Sis....

Have you played brawl before???


Also I can't with all these people getting excited cause her back throw kills earlier, or her second hit of Farores is stronger(with the new ledge mechanic, did we really need this??).

Keep in mind her u tilt got nerfed hard.

Dins Fire got nerfed overall.

Nayrus looks like it lost and follow up potential

And what's with the whole "can she combo now) discussion?

Zelda has never been a combo character nor does she need one or two extra combos to fix her.

She needs to play how she was (poorly) designed, a defensive glass cannon who can pressure opponents into approaching and wall them out when they get close.

I know this is just a demo but if Zelda is not drastically changed when the game comes out I don't think I'll be maining her.

 

[BJN39]

@ Fujin the unbannable ^ Nayru's could never combo or have followups. Remember? it has 30 lag frames, silly.

At least now it MIGHT be able to KO someone at a reasonable percent.

Keep in mind too that her utlit might now be able to "combo" into itself, Usmash, or NAir. Besides, it wasn't doing its job as a KO move well anyways.

Din's has been beaten to death. Find another terrible change.

As for her Bthrow, it's having something to actually DO when you connect with her grab. (Which is physically possible now.)

Farore's changes overall have been very good, making it possible to actually NOT get hit during the startup because it's quicker. It also can get ledges fluidly because of the auto-snap, and the raised KB means you could threaten them with a powerful hit, raising you recovery mixups with her trash Up B.
Overall, its options have been expanded.


If you aren't gonna play her anymore, you can't whine about her. Get out quitter queen.

BYE.

 

[Squii The Fish]

@ Fujin the unbannable


If you aren't gonna play her anymore, you can't whine about her. Get out quitter queen.

BYE.

5 stars mang.

 

[Toadallstar2]

@ Fujin the unbannable
BYE.

Drag her, sis.
Don't even remember saying half the flawed accusations thrown at me.

I'm all for discussion and nitpicking, but for the information available to us now (which isn't much), we aren't sure how the outcome will be. So giving up and maining a top tier as of now is desperate.

 

[Alacion]

Ouch.

Zelda needs her Melee kicks back.

As a bit of a frame of reference:

Melee: Kick based playstyle
Brawl: Ground/smash attack based playstyle

In Brawl, Zelda's sweetspots were much harder to land plus sourspots did 6% less damage (4%). In exchange, she got better knockback (assuming it isn't stale which is a huge issue...) and 1% more damage. I really don't like the "hope opponent approaches, spam smash attacks" mentality and hope it escapes Smash 4, but from what I'm seeing Zelda looks to be far more similar to Brawl than Melee.

Apparently staling is the way it was in Brawl which is awful news for Zelda. The worst thing to happen to somebody with so many sweetspot moves is this. At the very least, please give Zelda some form of l-cancel or auto-cancel on her aerials. Cancelled nair combos in Brawl were great, but not so much in Melee since nair was so easily escaped.

 

[Kamikazek]

I really think the balancing in not finished, by the way.

Although some balance attempts relative to Brawl have probably been made going in and some tweaks along the way, Sakurai has said before that the actual balancing phase is the absolute last phase of development. Like Ethanrodgers said, I don't think balancing has even started yet.

On that note, making a tier list at this point, though I'd be damn surprised if no one did, is completely pointless. A tier list before balance tweaks happen. That's like if someone played Brawl and then made a Project M tier list based on it.

That all said a lot of the specific buffs people want probably aren't going to happen.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

LordT

i have no hope for smash 4 zelda

I can definitely see her being low tier gurls

Here's Queen Zelda's problems:

Slow
Tall
Light
Unreliable smash attacks
Grab? If it's the same speed as Brawl then it's still unusable
Recovery is still linear, but is it faster???
Din's got NERFED (whaT nintendo???)
Her only reliable vertical killer got nerfed (utilt, does 6% I read???)

mmmmmm


sis

im so sorry

I mighT have to main Palutena

who looks good.

 

[Katy Parry]

LordT

i have no hope for smash 4 zelda

I can definitely see her being low tier gurls

Here's Queen Zelda's problems:

Slow
Tall
Light
Unreliable smash attacks
Grab? If it's the same speed as Brawl then it's still unusable
Recovery is still linear, but is it faster???
Din's got NERFED (whaT nintendo???)
Her only reliable vertical killer got nerfed (utilt, does 6% I read???)

mmmmmm


sis

im so sorry

I will have to main Palutena

who looks good.

It's a demo. Balancing is done last. They just wanted to show off the game for momentum.

 

[UnownLegend]

guys, just because zelda is placed in low tier (assuming that ct ZeRo's take holds up after release) doesn't have to mean she is bad

especially if the balance is better in this game and the tiers are a lot less separated in viability level

 

[Katy Parry]

guys, just because zelda is placed in low tier (assuming that ct ZeRo's take holds up after release) doesn't have to mean she is bad

especially if the balance is better in this game and the tiers are a lot less separated in viability level

Please see my post above yours.

 

[•Col•]

I will have to main Palutena

who looks good.

Who we've seen about 30 seconds of pre-recorded footage.

I only peeked into here because I was curious about Zelda's new Down B and I'm surprised to see so many downers in here.

Like someone else mentioned, customized moves might actually be a thing for competitive smash. For all we know her other options for customized specials might be the most ******** things ever. But aside from that.. I think you all have the wrong mindsets about buffing characters.... All of you are whining about how she has a lot of her old weaknesses still. I've always felt rather than getting rid of a characters weaknesses, you should buff their strengths. Which.. Granted Brawl Zelda didn't have many of those. But they did give her a strong recovery and better projectile game.

Not to mention the fact that the balancing for Smash 4 is automatically going to be better than Brawl because there is actually more than one sole person doing it now. They have a legit team that has made several fighting games working on it.

I'm not saying Zelda isn't going to be low tier in Smash 4 or comparatively better to other characters.. But purely compared to Brawl? SHE ACTUALLY HAS A DOWN B NOW. She literally has +1 entirely new move without getting rid of her old ones. I think you fail to grasp how significant that is. It's not going to solve everything for her, but it already means she has more options than she did in Brawl.

One of the biggest flaws in her gameplay in Brawl was that she was really bad at approaching and other than Din's Fire(which on its own makes you fairly vulnerable), she had no way to force the opponent to approach her. Now she has a new projectile which ALSO acts as a shield/wall, Din's Fire seems to be sped up some, and Naryu's Love(which can act as a reflector) seems a bit better. From my point of view, she's supposed to be a spammy projectile character and get enemies to approach her, and I think she's going to be able to beat a lot of enemies in firefights, which she really couldn't do in Brawl. Not to mention her offstage game is wayyyy better now considering Farore's Wind seems to autosnaps to the ledge(amazing for recovering[especially since you can 'bump' enemies off ledges now] and edgeguarding). Mostly theorycraft: Jumping offstage to charge down b is going to wreck enemies that like to recover low.

Anyway.. I'm usually a huge pessimist and I don't even play much Zelda, just wanted to tell ya'll to stop being so negative. Even if she's not a great character, I really feel she'll end up better than she was in Brawl and her gameplay design seems much more defined. In both Brawl and Melee she lacked direction I feel. Her specials were absolutely horid in Melee, and she mostly relied on her fair/bair which admittingly were amazing. In Brawl her specials got buffed to actually be somewhat useful, but they still weren't up to par to make up for the fact that she still lacked an overall gameplan. Now the specials are getting buffed AGAIN in addition to getting a new move to give her a better keepaway game, or at the very least, give her more options.

tl;dr Zelda's most likely better than her Brawl version, at least, don't get too upset just yet

 

[Squii The Fish]

Who we've seen about 30 seconds of pre-recorded footage.

I only peeked into here because I was curious about Zelda's new Down B and I'm surprised to see so many downers in here.

Like someone else mentioned, customized moves might actually be a thing for competitive smash. For all we know her other options for customized specials might be the most ******** things ever. But aside from that.. I think you all have the wrong mindsets about buffing characters.... All of you are whining about how she has a lot of her old weaknesses still. I've always felt rather than getting rid of a characters weaknesses, you should buff their strengths. Which.. Granted Brawl Zelda didn't have many of those. But they did give her a strong recovery and better projectile game.

Not to mention the fact that the balancing for Smash 4 is automatically going to be better than Brawl because there is actually more than one sole person doing it now. They have a legit team that has made several fighting games working on it.

I'm not saying Zelda isn't going to be low tier in Smash 4 or comparatively better to other characters.. But purely compared to Brawl? SHE ACTUALLY HAS A DOWN B NOW. She literally has +1 entirely new move without getting rid of her old ones. I think you fail to grasp how significant that is. It's not going to solve everything for her, but it already means she has more options than she did in Brawl.

One of the biggest flaws in her gameplay in Brawl was that she was really bad at approaching and other than Din's Fire(which on its own makes you fairly vulnerable), she had no way to force the opponent to approach her. Now she has a new projectile which ALSO acts as a shield/wall, Din's Fire seems to be sped up some, and Naryu's Love(which can act as a reflector) seems a bit better. From my point of view, she's supposed to be a spammy projectile character and get enemies to approach her, and I think she's going to be able to beat a lot of enemies in firefights, which she really couldn't do in Brawl. Not to mention her offstage game is wayyyy better now considering Farore's Wind seems to autosnaps to the ledge(amazing for recovering[especially since you can 'bump' enemies off ledges now] and edgeguarding). Mostly theorycraft: Jumping offstage to charge down b is going to wreck enemies that like to recover low.

Anyway.. I'm usually a huge pessimist and I don't even play much Zelda, just wanted to tell ya'll to stop being so negative. Even if she's not a great character, I really feel she'll end up better than she was in Brawl and her gameplay design seems much more defined. In both Brawl and Melee she lacked direction I feel. Her specials were absolutely horid in Melee, and she mostly relied on her fair/bair which admittingly were amazing. In Brawl her specials got buffed to actually be somewhat useful, but they still weren't up to par to make up for the fact that she still lacked an overall gameplan. Now the specials are getting buffed AGAIN in addition to getting a new move to give her a better keepaway game, or at the very least, give her more options.

tl;dr Zelda's most likely better than her Brawl version, at least, don't get too upset just yet

A lot of the bad stuff regarding zelda has gotten beaten to death in this conversation over the last couple of days and I don't feel like regurgitating it all.

But on the upside her dash is improved so running out of shield/spot dodge looks like it might be handy. Also I would really like Faore's wind to have full motion aiming so I can aim it at the ground at a angle and hit somebody for god sake because that move got BUFFED. And backthrow kills, yay. Nayrus looks alright.

She MAY be better than her brawl iteration. But I would need to play her to make any assumptions and unfortunately there was no best buy near me.

 

[•Col•]

She MAY be better than her brawl iteration. But I would need to play her to make any assumptions and unfortunately there was no best buy near me.

I guess in the end I was mostly just trying to say.. Yeah, Brawl Zelda was terribad. Legit one of the worst characters in Smash history. It's really hard to get worse than that.

Anyway, my friend got to play her, and I watched a decent amount of her while at Best Buy.. She really doesn't seem as bad at it was in Brawl. Of course, it's pretty hard to garner much from only playing her for 2-4 mins in a free for all match with items on, playing the game for the first time, and using a controller you're unfamiliar with.. But yeah.

Btw, he said that the fair/bair sweetspot seemed easier to connect with than it was in Brawl. So that's something at least.

 

[ZombieBran]

Sakurai has said before that the actual balancing phase is the absolute last phase of development.

Please tell me this is true (or link to it!)

I really fawkin want The Queen to be viable, or at least decent in SSB4. I don't think I can handle another official Smash game where Zelda is my "main" that I ignore if my opponent already knows the basic mechanics of the game.

 

[UnownLegend]

I guess in the end I was mostly just trying to say.. Yeah, Brawl Zelda was terribad. Legit one of the worst characters in Smash history. It's really hard to get worse than that.

Anyway, my friend got to play her, and I watched a decent amount of her while at Best Buy.. She really doesn't seem as bad at it was in Brawl. Of course, it's pretty hard to garner much from only playing her for 2-4 mins in a free for all match with items on, playing the game for the first time, and using a controller you're unfamiliar with.. But yeah.

Btw, he said that the fair/bair sweetspot seemed easier to connect with than it was in Brawl. So that's something at least.

Pretty sure melee zelda was overall worse than brawl zelda

 

[Kamikazek]

Please tell me this is true (or link to it!)

I really fawkin want The Queen to be viable, or at least decent in SSB4. I don't think I can handle another official Smash game where Zelda is my "main" that I ignore if my opponent already knows the basic mechanics of the game.

I usually don't link Sakurai quotes because it takes forever to find the right interview, but since you specificly asked I hunted it down.

Reading it again he doesn't specificly say it's the last thing, just that it's near the end of development.

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...d-where-new-smash-bros-fits-between-old-ones/


"We’re not at a stage in development where we’re going through those fine sorts of adjustments. When we get towards the end of development, we will have what we call monitor playtests, where we watch people play the games. We perform thorough analysis based on those observations. There have been cases in the past, admittedly, where we didn’t gather sufficient data for certain characters, and that resulted in certain game imbalances. Patches are something we’d definitely like to be able to do, if possible"

Another interesting thing from that article is that apparently they are at least trying to balance the custom moves. The fact that they're banned online gave me the impression they were just trying to make them interesting but not balanced. That's good because if custom moves end up being allowed in tournaments it could be a big help to characters like Zelda. I'm sure her down B and side B have more useful variants.

Oh, and the fact that he wants to patch the game is obviously good for bottom tier types.

 

[ZombieBran]

Oh wow, didn't expect you to find it again. I really appreciate it!

It's not that I didn't believe you, it's just that Sakurai is often take out of context or misunderstood.
But, again, thank you for finding it.

This is hopeful news. I hope their playtesters are good enough and that they spend an adequate amount of time =P

 

[BJN39]

I usually don't link Sakurai quotes because it takes forever to find the right interview, but since you specificly asked I hunted it down.

Reading it again he doesn't specificly say it's the last thing, just that it's near the end of development.

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...d-where-new-smash-bros-fits-between-old-ones/


"We’re not at a stage in development where we’re going through those fine sorts of adjustments. When we get towards the end of development, we will have what we call monitor playtests, where we watch people play the games. We perform thorough analysis based on those observations. There have been cases in the past, admittedly, where we didn’t gather sufficient data for certain characters, and that resulted in certain game imbalances. Patches are something we’d definitely like to be able to do, if possible"

Another interesting thing from that article is that apparently they are at least trying to balance the custom moves. The fact that they're banned online gave me the impression they were just trying to make them interesting but not balanced. That's good because if custom moves end up being allowed in tournaments it could be a big help to characters like Zelda. I'm sure her down B and side B have more useful variants.

Oh, and the fact that he wants to patch the game is obviously good for bottom tier types.

Patching the game, that sounds like a big deal. It actually sounds like HUGE trouble. I say this frequenting the project M boards.

I love the game, and It's great a game can be balanced every half year or so, for the sake of worse characters, but it has made the P:M community somewhat spoiled, talking almost ALL the time of changes, instead of advancing the current designs. "Nerf this!" and "Buff Ness!" Y'know what i mean?

As long as Sakurai doesn't give a bunch of power to the players or anything concerning changes, though, it will be fine.


"...admittedly, where we didn’t gather sufficient data for certain characters, and that resulted in certain game imbalances."
^
I think this caught my eye the most, knowing just about EVERYTHING concernig Brawl Zelda's stats, I can tell that they heavily overlooked Zelda. She's ridden with glitchy or just plain lazy or bad designs. (Including, but not limited to: Fsmash's multi-hit hit angles, multi-hit moves having SDI multipliers that are too high, Nayru's love's entire hit-box design, Farore's Wind; reappearing in the air with no horizontal movement for over 2 seconds, and UAir having NO auto-cancel frames, when EVERY OTHER aerial does.)

 

[Alacion]

Pretty sure melee zelda was overall worse than brawl zelda

LOL no. That is THE furthest thing from the truth. She had up throw chain grabs on spacies, and could combo it into a kick on pretty much all of top/high tier. Zelda's dsmash is a beast at edgeguarding plus crouch cancel dsmash and she actually has mobility to the extent that both of her kicks are viable. Do you know how amazing her kicks were compared to Brawl?

Zelda's smashes could be SDI'd of course but she plays a kick based game more so than spamming smash attacks.

 

[Rickster]

I think we're making her out to be worse than she really is. Yeah, her utilt and Din's got nerfed, but she got some big improvements too (already been listed).

Her combo ability has been increased. From that VGBootcamp video showing her move set, it looks like dtilt pops characters up more at lower percents. That could lead straight into an utilt, and with its weaker knock back, lead into an uair, nair, or even a kick. The point is that she's not THAT bad.

One other thing I've noticed is that we've split into 2 groups: The Zelda Optimists and the Zelda Pessimists.

 

[BJN39]

I think we're making her out to be worse than she really is. Yeah, her utilt and Din's got nerfed, but she got some big improvements too (already been listed).

Her combo ability has been increased. From that VGBootcamp video showing her move set, it looks like dtilt pops characters up more at lower percents. That could lead straight into an utilt, and with its weaker knock back, lead into an uair, nair, or even a kick. The point is that she's not THAT bad.

One other thing I've noticed is that we've split into 2 groups: The Zelda Optimists and the Zelda Pessimists.

Well, I hope you aren't mentally placing me with the pessimists, :V because I do believe she could turn out alright. Regardless, she's already better than before. That's for sure.

Also, I already said it, but Utlit was NOT nerfed overall. (Its positive/negative ratio is close to parallel.) Considering it and Usmash did pretty much the same thing in Brawl but Usmash did it better, this gives her another option, and allows her to ALSO keep Usmash fresher for KOs.
^ So that basically, instead of 2 KO moves, one of them being FAR easier to use in Brawl, she has a KO move that can't combo very well, (Usmash) and a move that is better for combos but doesn't KO well. (Utilt)

Also, did anyone notice that IASA on Utilt? So fast! I must admit though, the damage reduction was a bit bigger than it needed to be.

 

[Rickster]

Well, I hope you aren't mentally placing me with the pessimists, :V because I do believe she could turn out alright. Regardless, she's already better than before. That's for sure.

Also, I already said it, but Utlit was NOT nerfed overall. (Its positive/negative ratio is close to parallel.) Considering it and Usmash did pretty much the same thing in Brawl but Usmash did it better, this gives her another option, and allows her to ALSO keep Usmash fresher for KOs.
^ So that basically, instead of 2 KO moves, one of them being FAR easier to use in Brawl, she has a KO move that can't combo very well, (Usmash) and a move that is better for combos but doesn't KO well. (Utilt)

Also, did anyone notice that IASA on Utilt? So fast! I must admit though, the damage reduction was a bit bigger than it needed to be.

I wasn't really pointing fingers, just pointing out that some of us are being a little more positive than others. But nah, I don't think you're a pessimist. You've provided a lot of info on Zelda's better aspects.

I guess "nerf" was the wrong word to use. It's more like its been changed a lot from what we're used too. I agree with the more options thing. In Brawl, I would almost never use utilt, since, like you said, usmash simply outclassed it.

Didn't notice the IASA frames. Good find! I wholeheartedly agree with you on the damage reduction. I think it's a bit unnecessary.

 

[Toadallstar2]

Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems some moves were designed to be combos into fair/bair. So on their own, it may look bad. But give it some time and experience to discover a suitable gameplay, and things look better.

Not to mention the versatility of Phantom. Could be a real problem for those recovering. Rather than before Zelda could only attempt a Dins, or risk jumping off stage to perform an aerial which seems easily avoidable.

Just some thoughts. Don't understand the bleak pessimism. Us Zelda mains get creative, we have a lot more art to play with this time.

 

[ZombieBran]

I see the Utilt change as a buff too.

The damage needs to be drastically raised, however (with the knockback adjusted to match).
And Usmash needs to be inescapable if it is to take over as her best vertical killer. Really, all smashes shouldn't be escapable on hit.

 

[Luthien]

Nice to see Aleate dropping some truth bombs, as reliably as ever.

Look everyone, a part of why some people are reacting more pessimistically than others is because some of us were on these forums - having these exact same conversations - in anticipation of Brawl's release. Granted, back then none of us understood how profoundly some of Brawl's universal changes would effect Zelda's ability to compete, but try to understand that initially Zelda looked vastly improved compared to her Melee counterpart. A few weeks before the game's North American release and a few months afterward, most of the Zelda-maining community was living the dream. She was mid-tier?? And that was with untapped potential?? Better than Sheik?!

I think we all know how that story ends. Today Brawl!Zelda has almost no real options in the competitive metagame, and the rewards she reaps don't even come close to compensating for the risks she's forced to take to try and claim them.

"Better than Brawl" should really not be the bar for success here, guys.

This is why, when we look at this new iteration of Zelda and see what we see, we are less than enthused. I'm seeing a lot of "One just has to get used to her playstyle" and "She has a steep learning curve, it's part of her character" and "We'll just have to practice more." But many of you need to understand that - as a fundamental part of how she's designed - Zelda's learning curve does not work for her, it works more and more against her the more time passes and the further up the competitive ladder you go. The strengths of your sweetspots don't matter if you don't have a variety of real options for landing them, or tools to strip your opponent's options down to a point where you can safely throw them out like PM!Zelda can.

And thanks to the way Non-PM!Zelda has always been designed, once her opponents figure out the matchup she's pretty much done. She just doesn't have the right tools to deal with what so many other characters can dish out, and most of them have all have the tools they need to deal with what she can put out there herself. Ultimately, Zelda's momentum trend in the competitive Smash community is this: she starts where she starts, and then she goes down from there.

And right now, it doesn't look like Zelda is starting particularly high.


Of course we know it's too early to say for sure. Right now, all any of us can do is look at the signs. But when the developers are leaving completely unnecessary weaknesses that have a) cursed Zelda since her Smash Bros induction, and b) been incredibly easy to fix all along, please don't blame us for seeing that and going "Uh oh. They really don't seem to be learning the right lessons here" instead of "Oh, but look at how this other stuff has been mildly improved!" They've had almost 15 years to fix her up and side smashes, something Zelda has desperately needed for viability. If they haven't fixed those by now, I see little reason to hold my breath for the devs fixing them in the next 5 months.

 

[Kamikazek]

Patching the game, that sounds like a big deal. It actually sounds like HUGE trouble. I say this frequenting the project M boards.

I love the game, and It's great a game can be balanced every half year or so, for the sake of worse characters, but it has made the P:M community somewhat spoiled, talking almost ALL the time of changes, instead of advancing the current designs. "Nerf this!" and "Buff Ness!" Y'know what i mean?

As long as Sakurai doesn't give a bunch of power to the players or anything concerning changes, though, it will be fine.


"...admittedly, where we didn’t gather sufficient data for certain characters, and that resulted in certain game imbalances."
^
I think this caught my eye the most, knowing just about EVERYTHING concernig Brawl Zelda's stats, I can tell that they heavily overlooked Zelda. She's ridden with glitchy or just plain lazy or bad designs. (Including, but not limited to: Fsmash's multi-hit hit angles, multi-hit moves having SDI multipliers that are too high, Nayru's love's entire hit-box design, Farore's Wind; reappearing in the air with no horizontal movement for over 2 seconds, and UAir having NO auto-cancel frames, when EVERY OTHER aerial does.)

Knowing Sakurai, he'd probably only fix glitches and really glaring problems with balance with patches, or moves that end up not having their intended effect, ect.. He's the type of guy who likes to stick to his vision. I'm guessing he'll make fixes that obviously need to be made, like for instance Meta Knight REALLY needed to be nerfed in Brawl, but overall I don't think he'd be willing to change that much, and he certainly won't be taking open suggestions. Even if Sakurai isn't in charge of balance, most official games aren't nearly as patch crazy as fan games tend to be, especially Project M(or at least, especially how a lot of people want project M to be).

 

[Wavebuster]

The Japanese way of balancing games post release isn't at all congruent with how PM is being balanced. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[BJN39]

The Japanese way of balancing games post release isn't at all congruent with how PM is being balanced. I wouldn't worry about it.

Oh, good.

...

Wait, how do they balance post-release?

 

[Big-Cat]

Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems some moves were designed to be combos into fair/bair. So on their own, it may look bad. But give it some time and experience to discover a suitable gameplay, and things look better.

Not to mention the versatility of Phantom. Could be a real problem for those recovering. Rather than before Zelda could only attempt a Dins, or risk jumping off stage to perform an aerial which seems easily avoidable.

Just some thoughts. Don't understand the bleak pessimism. Us Zelda mains get creative, we have a lot more art to play with this time.

I'm not a Zelda mainer, but I agree that I think a lot of people are being so pessimistic with Zelda. If you ask me, she's going to have a sniper oriented playstyle with hitting with Din's Fire and Phantom Knight to hit opponents and then get in with the buffed recovery on Farore's Wind.

 

[BJN39]

I'm not a Zelda mainer, but I agree that I think a lot of people are being so pessimistic with Zelda. If you ask me, she's going to have a sniper oriented playstyle with hitting with Din's Fire and Phantom Knight to hit opponents and then get in with the buffed recovery on Farore's Wind.

Also, because Phantom Slash has no special fall in the air, it can be used as an offensive (Or weird defense) recovery mixup.

Also, a fully charged Phatnom Slash can stay out up to 2 whole seconds after Zelda finishes her animation, and it takes around 1.5 seconds to fully charge. You can even finish charging it just before touching the ground if you start it at the start of a max height DJ, meaning you could > jump towards the opponent, DJ away while starting a PS, and release it just before you hit the ground... In theory.

This would allow you to possibly do a fake out approach into a 2 second defensive wall. Which is enough time to use din's fire while having high projectile defense.

EDIT; Add on.

I just realized, since some aerial attacks apparently don't have auto cancel windows anymore, and ADLL (Air Dodge Landing Lag) Din's Fire will be a lot more effective on low airborne opponents. (Which is the main target for Din's Fire.)

She could force them to airdodge and then they'll take landing lag, which will make it harder to punish Zelda. They'll also have a harder time cancelling it out while airborne if they have little to no auto cancel aerials.

 

[Kaeldiar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqgyC3Nhyw&feature=youtu.be&t=2m48s

In this video, Zelda has a special "running off platforms" annimation! It's at 3:28! She does a front flip!

This is a new mechanic in Smash 4. It was talked about in the Treehouse at E3. It seems to be pretty useful!

 

[Katy Parry]

This is a new mechanic in Smash 4. It was talked about in the Treehouse at E3. It seems to be pretty useful!

I wouldn't call it a mechanic, more so a cosmetic change.

 

[Z1GMA]

Looks like she finally got an Utilt - Weaker , faster, and spammier.
In Brawl, she had two Usmashes and two Fsmashes.
If only her Ftilt was changed into something else as well. :/ A long range magical poke, or something.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Looks like she finally got an Utilt - Weaker , faster, and spammier.
In Brawl, she had two Usmashes and two Fsmashes.
If only her Ftilt was changed into something else as well. :/ A long range magical poke, or something.

I was liking the combo potential on up-tilt. I wish that f-tilt could hit them towards you like in P:M, so that you could combo it into other things.

 

[BJN39]

You queens have fun playing a garbage character and losing to people you're clearly better than because of it.

I'll be #TeamSheik overe here

BYE

Sis...






































BYE.




​

 

[EOE]

Good job on collecting all this info guys.
Here's what I gathered from the video:

-Jab has shorter range
-F-tilt looks the same, but I haven't seen it position the opponent slightly behind Zelda like it did in Brawl which was good for an U-smash follow-up. Can anyone clarify??
-U-tilt seems to be made for juggles (much faster and positions opponents above her on hit) and has lost its KO potential
-D-tilt still looks really fast with little cooldown
-Dash attack looks different (?). Doesn't seems to travel as far during the cooldown. Does it have multiple hitboxes? It looks like it should
-N-air and kicks look the same. I am SO disappointed to see F-air return, was really hoping for an actual approach option.
-U-air knockback nerfed
-D-air range increased
-Din's Fire looks slower than before. Shorter range but larger and weaker hitbox if not sweet-spotted
-Farore's Wind is a lot faster and second hit has KO potential
-Phantom Summon looks worse than Din's Fire (potentially new worst move in the game?). Charging times and distance travelled seem inconsistent. This is something I really hope they fix before release.
-Movement and grab speed still bad (grab range is still good)
-New Air-dodge (much faster?)

Overall, I'm not really happy with how she looks atm. Obviously, this is an early build, and knockback/damage scaling was all over the place in the demo, but it seems like she's still not able to be the glass canon she was designed to be, even after 3 attempts by the development team (then again, they seem to be taking FFAs into account when balancing - not saying they shouldn't, but it just doesn't bode well for Zelda in 1v1s).

My dreams

Reality

I'm going to at least try to remain optimistic for Zelder, because she obviously still has potential and I really want to keep her as my main. If knockback and cooldown are fixed, I can see things like D-throw > U-tilt > Kick being viable. And also a lot of combo potential if D-tilt/F-tilt are changed a little. If Phantom Slash had less cooldown, it could be a nice wall to approach behind. Din's is pretty much dead, imo - it can barely even be used for sniping/covering options because it's even slower and has shorter range - there also won't be much use in detonating it behind/in front of the opponent like we used to in Brawl because of the nerfs. Farore's is noticeably buffed, which is great.
I'm hoping Zelder can get some nice customizable specials (if they're even legal) to ensure that she doesn't have the worst set of specials in the game.
And at the very least, I have some really fun newcomers to main if Zelda is unusable tier again. I'll undoubtedly be using her first when the game is released, though and I can't wait to see the final result.

 

[BJN39]

Good job on collecting all this info guys.
Here's what I gathered from the video:

-Jab has shorter range
-F-tilt looks the same, but I haven't seen it position the opponent slightly behind Zelda like it did in Brawl which was good for an U-smash follow-up. Can anyone clarify??
-U-tilt seems to be made for juggles (much faster and positions opponents above her on hit) and has lost its KO potential
-D-tilt still looks really fast with little cooldown
-Dash attack looks different (?). Doesn't seems to travel as far during the cooldown. Does it have multiple hitboxes? It looks like it should
-N-air and kicks look the same. I am SO disappointed to see F-air return, was really hoping for an actual approach option.
-U-air knockback nerfed
-D-air range increased
-Din's Fire looks slower than before. Shorter range but larger and weaker hitbox if not sweet-spotted
-Farore's Wind is a lot faster and second hit has KO potential
-Phantom Summon looks worse than Din's Fire (potentially new worst move in the game?). Charging times and distance travelled seem inconsistent. This is something I really hope they fix before release.
-Movement and grab speed still bad (grab range is still good)
-New Air-dodge (much faster?)

Overall, I'm not really happy with how she looks atm. Obviously, this is an early build, and knockback/damage scaling was all over the place in the demo, but it seems like she's still not able to be the glass canon she was designed to be, even after 3 attempts by the development team (then again, they seem to be taking FFAs into account when balancing - not saying they shouldn't, but it just doesn't bode well for Zelda in 1v1s).

My dreams

Reality

I'm going to at least try to remain optimistic for Zelder, because she obviously still has potential and I really want to keep her as my main. If knockback and cooldown are fixed, I can see things like D-throw > U-tilt > Kick being viable. And also a lot of combo potential if D-tilt/F-tilt are changed a little. If Phantom Slash had less cooldown, it could be a nice wall to approach behind. Din's is pretty much dead, imo - it can barely even be used for sniping/covering options because it's even slower and has shorter range - there also won't be much use in detonating it behind/in front of the opponent like we used to in Brawl because of the nerfs. Farore's is noticeably buffed, which is great.
I'm hoping Zelder can get some nice customizable specials (if they're even legal) to ensure that she doesn't have the worst set of specials in the game.
And at the very least, I have some really fun newcomers to main if Zelda is unusable tier again. I'll undoubtedly be using her first when the game is released, though and I can't wait to see the final result.

LOL. Lovin' that reality GIF.

Here, this is my most recent data list. It might clear some things up.

Take note; The workings of damage seem unusual and inconsistent between hits, (Example: a hit-box doing 11% fresh one time, but 12% fresh the next.) and I've recorded two different percents for just about every attack. (The variation is only a 1% difference.) With that in mind, if you see two percents > 11\12% < connected like this, it means the varying percents.

EDIT: Some damages were recorded from the 3DS, which does NOT have this varying percent thing.

Note 2: Everything here is subject to being changed before the full release.


MOBILITIES:

* Her running appears to be a slight bit faster. Not a whole lot, though...

* Her second jump is now much larger! It used to only be about "one Zelda high" but now it's equal in height to her first jump. (which is around "one-and-1/2 Zeldas high")

* Many people have reported that she falls faster. IDK how I like this...


NORMALS:

Jab:
* The attack does 6% over 3 hits.
* It retains its Brawl IASA or very similar IASA.

66A - Dash Attack:
* Seems to do some combination of 12\13%, 9\10%, and 6%. (It's unknown if the damage differences happen with different timing or placement.)
* The 90 degree angle seems to be done away with, and now the WHOLE attack does a 45 degree angle.
* It still has varying KB dependin on which damage you do. The strongest hit can KO at around 130%.

Ftilt:
* The move ONLY hits forward now; at an angle of around 45 degrees.
* Does some range of 10\11\12\13%
* It still has pretty decent knockback; KO'ing around 130%.
* It's unconfirmed, but Ftilt may hit VERY SLIGHTLY faster, and end VERY SLIGHTLY faster. Take with a large grain of salt.

Dtilt:
* Now does 4\5%, and ONLY hits at 80 degrees. (This was likely done to reduce the power of the Dtilt lock.)
* The move no longer trips.
* Retains very similar IASA to Brawl's, if not the same.

Utilt:
* It now does only 5%, and sends at 90 degrees in the front, and 80 degrees in the back.
* Its knockback has been HUGELY reduced. (Only half a screen of KB at 100%.) Now very combo friendly.
* The startup appears to be reduced, the swip goes faster, and the IASA happens earlier. Now very quick.

Fsmash:
* Occasionally, people "fall out" of the multi-hits, disappointingly...
* Now does 17\18%.
* Retains very similar knockback to Brawl. Still ends with a 45-ish degree angle.

Dsmash:
* Front hit does 12\13%.
* Back hit does 10\11%.
* Retains very similar to Brawl knockback. Still hits at 20 and 160 degree angles.

Usmash:
* Occasionally, people "fall out" of the multi-hits, disappointingly...
* Does 15-17% and is now only 8 hits. (The order goes "3, 3, 3, 3, 1, 1, 1, 5." But it only does around 15-17% by reducing the 3s to 2s.)
* It appears to have some sort of IASA (Not confirmed) that makes it faster than it was in Brawl.

NAir:
* Her hands do 1% per hit, the center of the move does 2% per hit, and the final hit does 3%. Can do 11% in 5 hits.
* The final hit still sends at around 45 degrees.

FAir/BAir:
* The Sweetspot hit-lag is reduced from Brawl.
* Sweetspot does 20%, and hits at around 45 degrees. Still VERY powerful.
* Sourspot does 4%.
* The move has normal priority. (It could be seen cancelling a Samus homing missile.)
* Landing lag appears to be quicker. (Un-confirmed.)

DAir:
* Sweetspot does 16% and still hits straight down.
* The lower Sourspot does 4%, and the upper Sourspot does 5%.
* The sweetspot can connect with grounded opponents!
* It can auto-cancelled land in a short hop.

UAir:
* The hit-box appears to be larger and there appears to be two different ones: The main hit-box, and the edging.
* The main hit-box does 15% and hits upwards. The KB appears to be nearly the same.
* The edging is a weaker hit-box edging the main one. It does 10%. (This hit-box was ONLY seen once by me, and seems weird. I don't even surely know if this is a real hit-bx on the move...)


SPECIALS:

Neutral Special - "Nayru's Love":
* Does 11% in 4 hits. (In the order "2, 2, 2, 5".)
* The move appears to connect better than in Brawl.
* The final hit has increased knockback. (It nearly KO'ed ZSS ataround 100%.)
* If you're behind Zelda, the final hit in the back now knocks the opposite way Zelda is facing, (Like Melee/P:M) instead of only forward her direction like in Brawl.
* The move can still be B reversed!

Side Special - "Din's Fire":
* The move now consists of two different hit-boxes.
The core, a VERY powerful, but tiny hit-box in the center, that does 8-15%, and the edging, the rest of the explosion; an incredibly weak, set knockback hit-box. It does 3-7%.
* The fireball travels slightly faster (Not confirmed, but reported to be so by multiple people.)
* The channel distance, fireball maneuverability, and explosion hit-box, have all been nerfed.
* The fireball explosion still retains "normal" priority, and it still causes special fall if used in the air.
-- This is just terrible...

Up Special - "Farore's Wind":
* Farore's Wind now carries jump momentum during the startup animation. (Actually, It always did. It's just FAR more noticeable in SSB4 because her 2nd jump is so much bigger.)
* The vanishing animation, and the invisible travel time, are quicker. Apparently, though, the reappear animation length is the same.
* Reappearing while airborne still forces you to fall a great deal with no horizontal movement.
* The disappear hit-box does 6%. (Unknown if it does anything more.)
* The reappearing hit is now made up of two hit-boxes. The larger hit-box is larger than it was in Brawl, and does 10%. The second hit-box is smaller (Still large-ish.) and is centered on Zelda. This one does a whopping 12% and has very large knockback.
* The reappearing hit-box no longer has a flame effect, but instead, a slash effect. (FINALLY.)
* The disappearing animation can once again snap ledges! (Like in Melee. This feature was removed in Brawl.)
* It appears that Zelda will now auto-grab ledges at ANY TIME during her invisible travelling period if they're near enough to her.

Down Special - "Phantom Slash" AKA the NEW MOVE:
"Zelda creates a small-ish purple portal/vortex that once released, lets loose Phantom Armor (Like the one Zelda possesses in Spirit Tracks.) That lunges forward and swings its sword to attack opponents, and defend Zelda."
* The move can be charged, and doing so increases the range, power, and damage. (5-16%?) More charge also changes the type of Slash it does.
* No charge and it does a small, horizontal slash. Mid charge and it does an overhead, downwards slash. Fully charge it and the Phantom lunges forward and then does a MASSIVE uppercut slash, doing two hits.
* The fully charged Phantom Slash does two hits, yes, but it can do up to 26%! The sliding lunging hit does 12%, and the uppercut slash does 16%(?).
* When fully charged the purple vortex quickly flashes pink. It takes around 1.5 seconds to fully charge.
* It can be used while airborne and causes NO special fall afterwards. (woot!)
* The Phantom has NO gravity properties, and will stay on a single Y-plane when used. (It looks sorta funny when released in mid-air.)
* The Phantom can take hits from projectiles and shield Zelda. It can be seen taking 25% at full charge. It can take multiple projectiles before being destroyed too! (As it took one of Samus's missiles, and didn't die.)
* The Phantom is considered a projectile, and can be reflected by projectile reflecting moves. (UGH!!!)
* There is a brief period of time after the Phantom slashes where it's still there, and Zelda can act.
* Trying to use Phantom Slash while the Phantom is still on-screen causes Zelda to do a "no bullet whiff" animation.
* The Phantom appears to have some sort of "wall-like" properties. (Not Confirmed.) (It could be seen pushing Mega Man back slightly.)

Grab/Pummel:
* Her standing grab appears to connect significantly faster. ("And that day there was a collective sigh of relief and happiness.")
* Pummel does 3\4%.

Fthrow:
* Does 12\13% and sends at around a 45 degree angle.
* Its knockback seems nearly the same as Brawl.

Bthrow:
* Does 11\12% and sends at around a 135 degree angle (45 degrees behind her.)
* The knockback MAY be different/stronger. It sure acts weird. (It could cause a "red flash"--KO styled flash at only 59% on another Zelda, but couldn't get very close to a KO on a bowser at 88%.)

Dthrow:
* The damage it does has been reduced to 6% over 5 hits. (Like... Why...)
* It now knocks slightly farther at lower percents, and releases at a higher angle.

Final Smash is still The Light Arrow. It does 40%. It also seems to be slightly more powerful. Neat!
(Most recent: 6/18/14)

Also, how did you figure/discover Jab has shorter range? I'm curious.

EDIT: Just adding this about Din's on:

I just realized, since some aerial attacks apparently don't have auto cancel windows anymore, and ADLL (Air Dodge Landing Lag) Din's Fire will be a lot more effective on low airborne opponents. (Which is the main target for Din's Fire.)

She could force them to airdodge and then they'll take landing lag, which will make it harder to punish Zelda. They'll also have a harder time cancelling it out while airborne if they have little to no auto cancel aerials.

 

[Luthien]

About this small period of time where Zelda can act while the Phantom's still out: how long is it? If it's a few seconds, I can see this potentially becoming a huge help in 1 v 1 situations. Zelda greatly benefits from being able to act while traps are out in Project M, and the Knight could become just a far more limited version of that depending on how long Zelda can act while he's onscreen. Like Din's in PM, I can see myself seldom using it for its initial strike (especially against characters with fast reflectors) but rather for the additional control it provides.

 

[EOE]

Also, how did you figure/discover Jab has shorter range? I'm curious.

Visually, it looks like it has shorter range. The hitbox seems to be closer to her body now. The GFX is also noticeably smaller - it looks like it could whiff against small characters and those with good crouches. I could be wrong, though.