Best Buy Demo Discussion - What do you think of Zelda in Smash 4?

[Wavebuster]

Visually, it looks like it has shorter range. The hitbox seems to be closer to her body now. The GFX is also noticeably smaller - it looks like it could whiff against small characters and those with good crouches. I could be wrong, though.

That's because it's based on Brawl's jab, which has sucky range and hits too high off the ground.

 

[BJN39]

About this small period of time where Zelda can act while the Phantom's still out: how long is it? If it's a few seconds, I can see this potentially becoming a huge help in 1 v 1 situations. Zelda greatly benefits from being able to act while traps are out in Project M, and the Knight could become just a far more limited version of that depending on how long Zelda can act while he's onscreen. Like Din's in PM, I can see myself seldom using it for its initial strike (especially against characters with fast reflectors) but rather for the additional control it provides.

It depends on the charge level.

Having it at maximum or very close charge can keep it out for around 2 seconds of free Zelda movement. While very low charge won't really keep it out at all.

So you can theoretically throw out an entire Din's Fire while having high projectile defenses.

It only takes around 1.5 seconds to charge... Whether that means anything more or less for the move for you.

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Wait, so let's say theoretically I have two people attacking me from two sides. Than I could throw phantom at one of them as a distraction/ attack and then immediately afterwards (or as soon as I could move) turn around and attack the person on the other flank. What I'm starting to see the phantom slash as is a sort of wall that Zelda can make, even if it's just for a few seconds. I kind of want to know what this would mean for team matches.

 

[Foojin]

BJ do sis do NAWT support the casuals like this.

 

[Wavebuster]

I propose that whenever someone falls out of Zelda's smashes, that this happens as divine retribution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brzSqXqwZjg

 

[BJN39]

I propose that whenever someone falls out of Zelda's smashes, that this happens as divine retribution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brzSqXqwZjg

I decree this be added in P:M. For that time a multi-hit move whi-- Oh wait it doesn't...

 

[EOE]

I didn't know Zelda had a blonde costume.

0:11 - Look at the amount of hitstun her N-air causes!! It seems like the last hitbox is a spike, making follow-ups extremely easy.
0:20 - Farore's Wind almost killing DK at 76%.
1:05 - Sweetspot kick GFX. <3
2:04 - Farore's Wind not only carries momentum from her second jump, but also seems to give a HUGE jump boost.

 

[L2 Sentinel]

The buff to Farore's Wind is definitely one of the most promising changes. I'm cautiously optimistic that they will buff her some more before the game launches.

 

[Toadallstar2]

That has to be the best vid I've seen so far. Really nice. FW looks incredible.

 

[Novice_Brave]

That n-air and Farore's Wind are super, super hot.

 

[Katy Parry]

I don't think the Nair has a spike in it, it behaves the same in PM. Donkey Kong was grounded after Zelda brought him down with her, and then he was still being hit while standing.

 

[「 Derk 」]

I don't know why people are so negative about Zelda. They didn't gimp her, If anything she received a lot of awesome changes. Farore's Wind got a huge buff in speed, recovery, and also functions as a kill option... If that was not enough it even combos from the start up to the finish. This will be great if ledge cancels return for mind games and getting around the stage faster. Her offstage punish options are even better now with the addition of Phantom Slash and probably one of the best in the game being able to safely block recoveries from afar. Zelda is overall faster now and while her Ftilt lost power it gained combo potential. This is not a bad change at all since Zelda already has so many kill options. Keep in mind we still have yet to see any of her custom moves. People calling her bottom tier either don't play Zelda or don't care to learn anything about her and just place her on the bottom because she was there in Brawl.

Here is my super simple example of how Zelda could make great use of Phantom Slash:

Knock opponent offstage. Jump forward and begin charging Phantom Slash. Once you are lined up with the opponent release Phantom Slash and jump backwards. Begin charging Din's fire while floating backwards safely onto the stage and secure the stock. This is just theory based on what I have seen from videos of Zelda gameplay from demos, but it seems like it would work.

 

[L2 Sentinel]

Nice animation. Let's hope that's how it works.

 

[tetraforce]

The meta-game for the Phantom has not been explored it may end up being like a pseudo luma it depends on how quickly it can be summoned i think it will at least be able to act as a defensive move or distraction to set up the Din Fire sweet spot. Farore Wind is definitely her most noticeably buff it has great combo potential and can KO now.

 

[ZombieBran]

I gotta say, that Best Buy video raised my hopes for Zelda. Maybe too much, even =P
That Zelda showed off probably more of her Smash 4 self than any other Smash fest video I've seen (and certainly more than the Invitational).
FW does indeed look better than ever. Safe, fast, and a good kill move? Yes please.

I hope Nair functions as it does in P:M, because I really do like the landing hitboxes.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

What I love with SSB4 Farore's Wind is that I already used it in offensive ways in Brawl, so I'm confident I'll be able to be good with it quickly.

 

[Wavebuster]

I don't know why people are so negative about Zelda. They didn't gimp her, If anything she received a lot of awesome changes. Farore's Wind got a huge buff in speed, recovery, and also functions as a kill option... If that was not enough it even combos from the start up to the finish. This will be great if ledge cancels return for mind games and getting around the stage faster. Her offstage punish options are even better now with the addition of Phantom Slash and probably one of the best in the game being able to safely block recoveries from afar. Zelda is overall faster now and while her Ftilt lost power it gained combo potential. This is not a bad change at all since Zelda already has so many kill options.

The problem is that the changes that she seems to have are not the ones that she really needs to advance up in a competitive environment. Yeah, she got new stuff. It all appears to be rather paper thin, though.

I think you're referring to her utilt, not ftilt. Ftilt lost its combo potential but can kill, and utilt lost kill potential and is all combo. I'm on the fence about this, because for all of the kill options Zelda is purported to have, she's not that good at actually landing kills in Brawl. Utilt also filled a niche as a vertical KO move, which Zelda has difficulty capitalizing on in the matchups where they help. And if she goes into release with dysfunctional Usmash/Fsmash and Brawl move staling limiting her already limited set of reliable kill options... yeah.

 

[Big-Cat]

I didn't know Zelda had a blonde costume.

0:11 - Look at the amount of hitstun her N-air causes!! It seems like the last hitbox is a spike, making follow-ups extremely easy.
0:20 - Farore's Wind almost killing DK at 76%.
1:05 - Sweetspot kick GFX. <3
2:04 - Farore's Wind not only carries momentum from her second jump, but also seems to give a HUGE jump boost.

That Zelda player definitely knew what (s)he was doing.

I still say that there's going to be a sniping emphasis with her. I think every character in Smash 4, veteran or not, will have to be looked as new characters entirely.

 

[Katy Parry]

I don't know why people are so negative about Zelda. They didn't gimp her, If anything she received a lot of awesome changes. Farore's Wind got a huge buff in speed, recovery, and also functions as a kill option... If that was not enough it even combos from the start up to the finish. This will be great if ledge cancels return for mind games and getting around the stage faster. Her offstage punish options are even better now with the addition of Phantom Slash and probably one of the best in the game being able to safely block recoveries from afar. Zelda is overall faster now and while her Ftilt lost power it gained combo potential. This is not a bad change at all since Zelda already has so many kill options. Keep in mind we still have yet to see any of her custom moves. People calling her bottom tier either don't play Zelda or don't care to learn anything about her and just place her on the bottom because she was there in Brawl.

Here is my super simple example of how Zelda could make great use of Phantom Slash:

Knock opponent offstage. Jump forward and begin charging Phantom Slash. Once you are lined up with the opponent release Phantom Slash and jump backwards. Begin charging Din's fire while floating backwards safely onto the stage and secure the stock. This is just theory based on what I have seen from videos of Zelda gameplay from demos, but it seems like it would work.

This is sweet, but, do we know if Zelda goes helpless after casting a full Down B? Can she jump back that quick?

 

[「 Derk 」]

She can still act after using phantom. There are a few videos from the demo of Zelda using phantoms in midair. The phantom follows a direct path in the air and stays there until it disappears. I will try to find a video for it.

Edit: here is the video.

Zelda jumps offstage while charging a phantom and jump afterwords at 1:55

 

[Katy Parry]

She can still act after using phantom. There are a few videos from the demo of Zelda using phantoms in midair. The phantom follows a direct path in the air and stays there until it disappears. I will try to find a video for it.

Okay, thanks, I'd like to see it.

 

[Toadallstar2]

Knock opponent offstage. Jump forward and begin charging Phantom Slash. Once you are lined up with the opponent release Phantom Slash and jump backwards. Begin charging Din's fire while floating backwards safely onto the stage and secure the stock. This is just theory based on what I have seen from videos of Zelda gameplay from demos, but it seems like it would work.

Pricisely what I was thinking as well with the introduction of Phantom. He definitely seems more suitable for offstage recovery-blocking, and doesn't leave Zelda very vulnerable either.

What I love with SSB4 Farore's Wind is that I already used it in offensive ways in Brawl, so I'm confident I'll be able to be good with it quickly.

As did I, so it made me way excited. As awful as it was in Brawl, it was still one of my favorite moves.

 

[BJN39]

*Looks at most recent post's poster name*


"Phugin"

Srsly, make some real false names. You''ll last longer. *eyeroll*


EDIT; The post is gone.

BYE.

 

[Rickster]

http://berathen.com/2014/07/smash-bros-wiiu-3ds-balance.php About 1/3rd down the page.

*sigh*

Even I'm beginning to lose hope...

 

[Novice_Brave]

http://berathen.com/2014/07/smash-bros-wiiu-3ds-balance.php About 1/3rd down the page.

*sigh*

Even I'm beginning to lose hope...

If you go and look through the comments, you'll see a lot of people adding to the Zelda discussion, and he admits several times to not having using a lot of her moves, or not having noticed so and so changes - I doubt he's a very big Zelda player, and I doubt he took a lot of time with her comparatively to some others.

Her smash attacks in the demo honestly look about on-par with Brawl's, in terms of knockback/killing power. I went into training and made a Fox dummy, then changed his % to the percentages at which she was hitting him with various attacks in the Zelda vs. Fox match video, and her smashes were all doing around the same knockback from the same distances - obviously, there's gonna be system changes and such, but they still looked around the same - and their knockback is fairly solid in Brawl, so I don't think that's a big issue for her still. Her dash attack, on the other hand, was greatly increased in terms of knockback scaling, able to kill very respectably. It looked like her ftilt, utilt, and uair all had lowered overall knockback, on the other hand - contrary to his statement that uair has more knockback. It also comes out quite a bit faster. We've also gotta think - "does decreasing the knockback on her tilts and aerials actually hurt Zelda in the long run?" - since she is a character who's problem is not a lack of moves with strong enough knockback to kill, but rather, one of her problems is that her moves have too much knockback, making it impossible for her to chain moves and rack damage. Decreasing the knockback and increasing the speed of some of her moves allows her to more easily get potential combos off. I'm not so sure that these moves having decreased knockback is truly going to be a nerf to her, overall.

That's in addition to the fact that her Smash attacks are now less likely to be DI'd out of (they appear to be slightly quicker to end, and apparent system changes have fairly significantly lowered the imapct of SDI) - and therefore more likely to connect with her strong final hitboxes; her Farore's Wind teleport is much faster and ends in a very strong kill move with decent damage (12-13%); she has a new and unexplored special whose intricacies - weaknesses and strengths alike - won't fully be understood until we've had some time with her; and I've heard it said her sweetspotted aerials are easier to hit with (particularly dair, which I've heard does more when not sweetspotted now as well).

She's a character who needs a lot, and I won't be surprised if she still can't rise out of the lower portions of the tier list, but I think she has a lot more subtle changes up her... gloves(?) that we need to fully realize before we make any real judgement about her.

And who knows? By the time the game comes out (next month in Japan!) we may be seeing a Zelda who is ten times better than demo Zelda, or potentially even ten times worse. We also don't know how she fares in comparison to the cast who wasn't available in the demo, which was likely less than 1/3 of the total roster if the roster ends up being around 50 characters!

 

[Rickster]

If you go and look through the comments, you'll see a lot of people adding to the Zelda discussion, and he admits several times to not having using a lot of her moves, or not having noticed so and so changes - I doubt he's a very big Zelda player, and I doubt he took a lot of time with her comparatively to some others.

Her smash attacks in the demo honestly look about on-par with Brawl's, in terms of knockback/killing power. I went into training and made a Fox dummy, then changed his % to the percentages at which she was hitting him with various attacks in the Zelda vs. Fox match video, and her smashes were all doing around the same knockback from the same distances - obviously, there's gonna be system changes and such, but they still looked around the same - and their knockback is fairly solid in Brawl, so I don't think that's a big issue for her still. Her dash attack, on the other hand, was greatly increased in terms of knockback scaling, able to kill very respectably. It looked like her ftilt, utilt, and uair all had lowered overall knockback, on the other hand - contrary to his statement that uair has more knockback. It also comes out quite a bit faster. We've also gotta think - "does decreasing the knockback on her tilts and aerials actually hurt Zelda in the long run?" - since she is a character who's problem is not a lack of moves with strong enough knockback to kill, but rather, one of her problems is that her moves have too much knockback, making it impossible for her to chain moves and rack damage. Decreasing the knockback and increasing the speed of some of her moves allows her to more easily get potential combos off. I'm not so sure that these moves having decreased knockback is truly going to be a nerf to her, overall.

That's in addition to the fact that her Smash attacks are now less likely to be DI'd out of (they appear to be slightly quicker to end, and apparent system changes have fairly significantly lowered the imapct of SDI) - and therefore more likely to connect with her strong final hitboxes; her Farore's Wind teleport is much faster and ends in a very strong kill move with decent damage (12-13%); she has a new and unexplored special whose intricacies - weaknesses and strengths alike - won't fully be understood until we've had some time with her; and I've heard it said her sweetspotted aerials are easier to hit with (particularly dair, which I've heard does more when not sweetspotted now as well).

She's a character who needs a lot, and I won't be surprised if she still can't rise out of the lower portions of the tier list, but I think she has a lot more subtle changes up her... gloves(?) that we need to fully realize before we make any real judgement about her.

And who knows? By the time the game comes out (next month in Japan!) we may be seeing a Zelda who is ten times better than demo Zelda, or potentially even ten times worse. We also don't know how she fares in comparison to the cast who wasn't available in the demo, which was likely less than 1/3 of the total roster if the roster ends up being around 50 characters!

Thanks for renewing some of my faith in Smash 4 Zelda.

It's just that so many players that have done full analyses have said mostly negative things about her, and have to resort to "maybe I just haven't figured her out yet" to make her not sound terrible. It's not like say, ZSS, where everyone has been saying she's better even if they don't main her since the buffs are so obvious.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Trying to keep the faith up for Smash 4 Zelda is my main purpose on Smashboards as of late

Yeah, ZSS' buffs are very obvious - as are Bowser's. I think that with characters like Zelda, their differences are things that more subtly affect the way she will play as a whole. The only real full on nerf I've seen is... unfortunately, Din's. I'm hoping that demo Din's is not final product Din's - but overall, I do think she is improved from Brawl in very important ways - and some of her "nerfs" end up working in her favor moreso than against her (like the reduced knockback). But of course, we can't be certain of anything until the final product launches. Thankfully, we're only a month away from the Japanese release - then a short (but ever so long feeling) three weeks later, it's our turn.

I really wish I had played her when I went to my Best Buy :/ opted to play WFT and Rosalina instead, but in retrospect, seeing how much time I've poured into Smash 4 Zelda - I wish I could say I had played her and didn't need to rely so heavily on scraps of other footage.

 

[L2 Sentinel]

I played Zelda at Best Buy, but the 2-minute match wasn't enough time for me adapt to the pro-controller, much less get a good feel for the Zelda's changes. And in a 4-player free-for-all with items turned on, the items determine the match more than character balance, or even skill level.

 

[Rickster]

Trying to keep the faith up for Smash 4 Zelda is my main purpose on Smashboards as of late

Yeah, ZSS' buffs are very obvious - as are Bowser's. I think that with characters like Zelda, their differences are things that more subtly affect the way she will play as a whole. The only real full on nerf I've seen is... unfortunately, Din's. I'm hoping that demo Din's is not final product Din's - but overall, I do think she is improved from Brawl in very important ways - and some of her "nerfs" end up working in her favor moreso than against her (like the reduced knockback). But of course, we can't be certain of anything until the final product launches. Thankfully, we're only a month away from the Japanese release - then a short (but ever so long feeling) three weeks later, it's our turn.

I really wish I had played her when I went to my Best Buy :/ opted to play WFT and Rosalina instead, but in retrospect, seeing how much time I've poured into Smash 4 Zelda - I wish I could say I had played her and didn't need to rely so heavily on scraps of other footage.

Unfortunately I haven't even been able to play any Smash 4 at all. I'm pretty much going off of what I hear others say, so my opinions on aspects of the game are most likely quite flawed.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Go watch all the replays that we have seen of Zelda so far and tell me you wouldn't put her in bottom tier if that was all you have seen for her and didn't know better. Every single Zelda player has been pretty bad so far exept maybe 1 or 2 that I spotted from the best buy demos. It is easy to see that the people making the tier lists are putting her at the bottom based on the terrible gameplay we have seen, which is understandable but wrong. Multiple tier list have said she plays the same as brawl and has received some nurfs, but nothing about the buffs. You will also see multiple people then correct the tier makers by telling them all this new information about Zelda that they apparently had no clue about... does that sound like a good person to base a characters tier? "Zelda is bad. I am not sure why because I don't know the character but she is because that's what everyone else said about her so far." That pretty much sums up every tier list for Zelda currently. Don't jump to conclusions because people keep telling you the character is bad when they are just saying so because they don't know any better. Wait until October (or September for you early peeps) and show them what she can do.

We still don't know her custom specials. She could end up getting some crazy customization like a Din's Firewall, Phantom Counter, a Nayru's with a pull in effect, etc... the customization potential for a magic user is limitless. Sakurai already showed that moves can be much different than their standard move like Rosalina's Luma Shield replacing Gravitational Pull. Those moves are completely different and offer a very different playstyle. Zelda already looks amazing with all the new buffs so anything that the specials bring is a bonus.

tl:dr: Wait until we actually see a good Zelda and stop believing tier list that know nothing about Zelda.

 

[ihskeyp]

Go watch all the replays that we have seen of Zelda so far and tell me you wouldn't put her in bottom tier if that was all you have seen for her and didn't know better. Every single Zelda player has been pretty bad so far exept maybe 1 or 2 that I spotted from the best buy demos. It is easy to see that the people making the tier lists are putting her at the bottom based on the terrible gameplay we have seen, which is understandable but wrong. Multiple tier list have said she plays the same as brawl and has received some nurfs, but nothing about the buffs. You will also see multiple people then correct the tier makers by telling them all this new information about Zelda that they apparently had no clue about... does that sound like a good person to base a characters tier? "Zelda is bad. I am not sure why because I don't know the character but she is because that's what everyone else said about her so far." That pretty much sums up every tier list for Zelda currently. Don't jump to conclusions because people keep telling you the character is bad when they are just saying so because they don't know any better. Wait until October (or September for you early peeps) and show them what she can do.

We still don't know her custom specials. She could end up getting some crazy customization like a Din's Firewall, Phantom Counter, a Nayru's with a pull in effect, etc... the customization potential for a magic user is limitless. Sakurai already showed that moves can be much different than their standard move like Rosalina's Luma Shield replacing Gravitational Pull. Those moves are completely different and offer a very different playstyle. Zelda already looks amazing with all the new buffs so anything that the specials bring is a bonus.

tl:dr: Wait until we actually see a good Zelda and stop believing tier list that know nothing about Zelda.

You need to watch the 1v1 match of her and Fox from comic con, non items were on, and it REALLY showed her buffs.

 

[「 Derk 」]

You need to watch the 1v1 match of her and Fox from comic con, non items were on, and it REALLY showed her buffs.

I watched it during the Comic con and a few times after. Nothing really there that we didn't see already. Bill was focused more on talking than fighting. The Farore's kill at the end is pretty much it. I spent a lot of time watching all the videos that involved Zelda so I am well aware of her buffs. Idk if you misread my post?

I think this video is the best we have seen as far as Zelda gameplay goes:

 

[ihskeyp]

I watched it during the Comic con and a few times after. Nothing really there that we didn't see already. Bill was focused more on talking than fighting. The Farore's kill at the end is pretty much it. I spent a lot of time watching all the videos that involved Zelda so I am well aware of her buffs. Idk if you misread my post?

I think this video is the best we have seen as far as Zelda gameplay goes:

Nothing? Farores killed him at 42%, her up smash PULLED fox DOWNWARD which means DI probably won't be an issue for her anymore, and that was one if the main reasons she was low tier. So the video showing that is a big deal. It also showed her dash attack has a sweet spot, and her the crystal in her neutral b is larger, with less ending lag. It showed off a lot that you ignored.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Nothing? Farores killed him at 42%, her up smash PULLED fox DOWNWARD which means DI probably won't be an issue for her anymore, and that was one if the main reasons she was low tier. So the video showing that is a big deal. It also showed her dash attack has a sweet spot, and her the crystal in her neutral b is larger, with less ending lag. It showed off a lot that you ignored.

I included the Farore part in my last post... We already knew that her f-smash and u-smash had a draw in effect. The same thing with Nayru's hitbox being larger. If you go to the Zelda forums you can see posts about this a few weeks ago. I am not ignoring it. It is just old news. I didn't come here to argue and would rather not. That is not why I post here. If you want to continue this just send me a message or something. No point in cluttering up a thread with useless arguing.

Edit: Here is the link to the info.
http://smashboards.com/threads/hd-6...t-feed-zeldas-upsmash-pulls-people-in.362435/

 

[ihskeyp]

I included the Farore part in my last post... We already knew that her f-smash and u-smash had a draw in effect. The same thing with Nayru's hitbox being larger. If you go to the Zelda forums you can see posts about this a few weeks ago. I am not ignoring it. It is just old news. I didn't come here to argue and would rather not. That is not why I post here. If you want to continue this just send me a message or something. No point in cluttering up a thread with useless arguing.

Edit: Here is the link to the info.
http://smashboards.com/threads/hd-6...t-feed-zeldas-upsmash-pulls-people-in.362435/

You do realize that they are talking about the Zelda vs Fox vid in that thread. So it wasn't well-known before the video. And I'm not arguing, I was saying what I discovered from the video. It's like one of the (if not THE) only 1v1 match of Zelda. It's easier to observe than a 4 player match with items.