Best Brawl+ AI?

[Kei_Takaro]

Been playing CPUs, and that I've been wondering about was that they have had fantastic improvements. As far as my fight records go, I played against the whole roster in AI.
What has intrigued me the most IMO was Luigi.
Having looked at the Best Brawl AI thread, I don't see why we could have this thread.


EDIT for fun:
Why don't we have a record match against him. 4 Stocks, 8 Minutes, No Items, Final Destination.

The goal is to defeat lvl 9 Luigi as fast as possible, and It's ok if you lose a stock (It's Friggin' Luigi)
Then have a Youtube link of your match.
Anyone like the idea? =D

 

[MK26]

Luigi. no doubt.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Yeah, definitely Luigi.

But AIs don't adapt. They play the same way they were programmed to play in vBrawl. So AIs will suck as they always do.

 

[Mic_128]

Lugi is so good, Level 9 Luigi has actually been accepted as a permanent smasher in the Perth lineup

 

[Isatis]

Level 9 Luigi's are on the Power Rankings in Washington.

 

[zephyrnereus]

now people are paying attention to weegee! (he's crazy good! he'd be unstoppable if he didn't dodge after every hit...)

 

[Kei_Takaro]

O.O .... Didn't know everyone was so strong about Luigi XD.
Since we have a winner by default, we should see which one's 2nd best, haven't really seen anything good yet but I'll find out soon enough.

 

[leafbarrett]

Yeah, definitely Luigi.

But AIs don't adapt. They play the same way they were programmed to play in vBrawl. So AIs will suck as they always do.

Actually, that's not entirely true. If you play with Luigi enough, they'll mimic you, and if you play Luigi+ the way he's meant to be played, then the AI will mimic that (at least to some extent).

 

[person701]

So you're referring back to the "computers learn from replays" thing leaf? Wasn't that blown out of the water ages ago? o.O

 

[Dracs]

Actually, that's not entirely true. If you play with Luigi enough, they'll mimic you, and if you play Luigi+ the way he's meant to be played, then the AI will mimic that (at least to some extent).

If I remember correctly, CPU does improve, but not by mimicking human, files concerning CPU AI were found on the Brawl data, and it seemed they were reguraly upgrade by Nintendo trough online...
But I'm not really sure.

By the way leadbarrett, where did you found your Avatar ?

 

[Shadic]

1) Luigi
2) CPU's don't learn. It's provable via how replays work.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

CPU AI were found on the Brawl data

This is what I meant by "programmed to play in vBrawl".

They are made by actually doing exactly what the files made for them tell them to do. If a character is above you, follow their movement and do an uptilt, upsmash, or shield. That's what most CPUs do. Simple programming, at least when spoken like that.

 

[Dracs]

2) CPU's don't learn. It's provable via how replays work.

What do you mean ?

Besides, I think CPU are stronger in B+ than in vB, even if they cant adapt, they react faster than humans.
The only problem is that some of their programmation doesn't fit in B+ (like the recovery).

 

[IndigoFenix]

There's plenty of evidence that CPUs, at least Level 9s, have some learning capability. Although their initial and overriding programming is pre-determined (attack in the direction of the opponent, move toward the stage if knocked away, etc.), and it is unlikely that they have the intelligence to actually observe a replay and figure out exactly how and why certain move patterns work, it's pretty easy to program a machine with a simple reward/punishment system that lets them remember which sequences of events yield good or bad results. Besides, we already know that Brawl maintains a short-term memory of which moves a player used recently and in what order - that's how Stale Moves work.

If a CPU sees that when a player is in such-and-such a position and uses such-and-such a sequence of moves then they generally land their hits/don't get hit/beat the opponent, it doesn't take an overly powerful AI to realize that that sequence of moves is a good idea to do in such circumstances. They might also be able to recognize certain move strings used during certain events, and imitate them if that player wins the battle (which is where you get things like CPU's doing crouch-taunts and the like). They don't need to look at replays, they only need to store information in short-term memory and then save it if the opponent wins, or discard it if they lose. They don't need to know how or why something works, only that it does or doesn't work.

CPU's can actually learn combos or move strings that work only in B+, provided that you only play B+ for a long period of time (switching between them gets them confused, understandably). I've even seen them use moves that only work with certain PSA characters, although for major revolutionary changes they tend to be slower learners. For example, my Toon Link CPU (which plays mainly as Cosmic Geno) has not yet learned how to land Geno Beam or Geno Blast, but it has learned that these moves shouldn't be used as often as Toon Link's Bow or Bombs.

 

[Almo40192]

i've been playing brawl+ for a long time now, i mainly use samus. When i do a samus vs. samus fight within the first few seconds we do the same pattern of moves every match and she even plays in my style, it gets pretty difficult because it seems like i have to beat myself.

but anyways that samus sort of freaks me out because it plays EXACTLY like me, so it puts up a very good fight

 

[Meru.]

I find Peach harder than Luigi, actually. But that's probably because I main her, the copycat. For some reason, Zelda is getting harder too o.o

Fox, Falcon and the IC's suck.

 

[JayFizzy]

id say weegee and zelda are tied.

 

[STUFF2o]

I have memories of frustration and pain with lvl 9 Luigi... it's disturbing the type of stuff it can do. It perfect-shields everything and always follows immediately with a 1 hit KO with Up B or Up Smash... Not to mentions its gimping skills...

EDIT: Zelda has some weird moments too. I turned on Smash balls one time (don't remember why) and Zelda got every single one with her Fair in one shot each.

 

[Shadic]

*Post about CPUs learning

I'm pretty sure the connections you're making is just your brain wanting to do so. It's logically impossible for CPU's to learn because of the following:

1) Replays store only player inputs, with the CPUs movement is determined based off their AI, what the player does, and the environment. (Compare the file size of a 1 human. 3player CPU replay vs. that even of a 1v1 player match. The human match should be larger.

2) Replays can be transferred between Wiis without ever desyncing.

 

[CloneHat]

The CPU adapts to my playstyle, no matter what you might say.

In the past it's picked up on VERY noticeable things that I do, and used them against me. It's pretty scary, actually.

 

[Zook]

My CPUs have learned how to dash dance, and I've heard of many other cases of this. That's pretty strong evidence they have some sort of learning capability.

 

[Dracs]

Replays store only player inputs, with the CPUs movement is determined based off their AI, what the player does, and the environment. (Compare the file size of a 1 human. 3player CPU replay vs. that even of a 1v1 player match. The human match should be larger.

That would mean that each time you dont touch the pad during a match, you will see EXACTLY the same match, and I dont think that's the case.

 

[Blues98]

I haven't played against everyone but I have to say Pikachu & Zelda. I'll go try my luck w/ Weegee later.

 

[STUFF2o]

I haven't played against everyone but I have to say Pikachu & Zelda. I'll go try my luck w/ Weegee later.

Be Luigi, too. I had so many failed dittos in a row against that blasted Luigi... but it was epic, and definitely a needed challenge.

 

[IndigoFenix]

I'm pretty sure the connections you're making is just your brain wanting to do so. It's logically impossible for CPU's to learn because of the following:

1) Replays store only player inputs, with the CPUs movement is determined based off their AI, what the player does, and the environment. (Compare the file size of a 1 human. 3player CPU replay vs. that even of a 1v1 player match. The human match should be larger.

2) Replays can be transferred between Wiis without ever desyncing.

You do bring up an interesting point. I have seen CPUs behave logically in cases where the rest of the replay is desynced, implying that either the CPUs do not learn, or the learning data is stored in the replay itself.

However, since the learning program can be 'harnessed' by repeatedly doing the same illogical actions to cause strange, frequent, and illogical results (including but not limited to crouch-taunting, Up Tilt spam taunting, or other previously unseen taunting methods, and constant and repetitive use of certain less-than-useful moves like Falcon Punch), I don't see how it is possible to say that the reports of CPUs learning behavior is 'all in your head'.

The only explanation I can think of is that the learned behavior is, in fact, stored in replays, and that whatever method the game uses to store learned behavior only uses a small, negligible amount of memory space. This is not impossible. If the only data stored is in the form of small 'strings' of moves which may each take up less than a single byte, and previously learned behavior can be canceled out by learning new behaviors (I very much doubt that the game would store ALL information, it probably just remembers a small number of move-strings which it places over its underlying situation-based code), then even the information stored by 3 CPUs wouldn't be noticeable next to other replays.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Wow. I'm surprised that there are so many people said Luigi, because I was about to say him as well.

Whenever we do any sort of three person team game, and are in need of a cpu, we always pick a lvl 9 Luigi. They are too smart sometimes, haha. Walk towards, barely dash back, up-angled Fsmash towards me.

 

[Unknownlight]

I'm pretty sure the connections you're making is just your brain wanting to do so. It's logically impossible for CPU's to learn because of the following:...

...I have the feeling you didn't even read that post, as he wasn't talking about replays. EDIT: My bad, read your post wrong.

Anyway, CPUs learning was pretty much confirmed by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXNQo71shCQ

 

[Rappster]

don't they have blank slots that they fill with whatever input patterns you use a lot?
thats what i heard on teh melee boards

 

[JamesRaynor]

...I have the feeling you didn't even read that post, as he wasn't talking about replays. EDIT: My bad, read your post wrong.

Anyway, CPUs learning was pretty much confirmed by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXNQo71shCQ

I do not think so, I think it's a glitch because the AI wasn't made for B+ (that I know of) so it may be vulnerable to funny glitches like what you saw.

 

[IndigoFenix]

Crouch-taunting is good evidence. You can't really prove anything from CPU's imitating your smart strategies, since it's possible to say that they were pre-programmed and you're just seeing your own strategies in them. You can only recognize learning behavior for certain when they start doing stupid things.

For example, this:
http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=10408

My guess is that the learning behavior is linked to the same system that calculates Stale Moves. The game does store a list of your last moves used, so it makes sense that that list, or ones like it, could be stored in CPUs as learned behavior. It's not really all that hard to do.

 

[JamesRaynor]

Crouch-taunting is good evidence. You can't really prove anything from CPU's imitating your smart strategies, since it's possible to say that they were pre-programmed and you're just seeing your own strategies in them. You can only recognize learning behavior for certain when they start doing stupid things.

For example, this:
http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=10408

Maybe a Pseudo learning ability, but I doubt that it's any true learning ability. But if this is only noticed in B+ then it makes more sense to say that this is a glitch (sort of) that occurs because of B+

 

[IndigoFenix]

Maybe a Pseudo learning ability, but I doubt that it's any true learning ability. But if this is only noticed in B+ then it makes more sense to say that this is a glitch (sort of) that occurs because of B+

Nobody ever claimed that the CPUs were geniuses or strategists, only that they're monkeys. The CPU sees you doing Up Smash after Down Air, or Sword Spin after Gale Boomerang, or Crouch Spam after Enemy Death, and it does the same thing. I don't think there was a huge amount of time and money spent on making Smash Bros into an experiment in robotic consciousness, but if some programmer could spend a few days making CPUs that could learn the habits of their opponents to make the game a bit more interesting I don't see why they wouldn't. There are a whole lot of other games (mostly sports games) that use the same or more advanced AI systems, so why not put one in Smash? It just makes sense, is what I'm saying.

As for B+, no claim has been made that CPUs learning behavior is more noticable in B+, on the contrary, B+ would presumably make them fail if their AI was fixed. The only question was whether or not the learning system is advanced enough to make them able to learn how to work well in B+ despite the altered physics.

 

[Unknownlight]

Maybe a Pseudo learning ability, but I doubt that it's any true learning ability. But if this is only noticed in B+ then it makes more sense to say that this is a glitch (sort of) that occurs because of B+

Actually, the idea that CPU players "learned" from players was brought up before Brawl+ even existed. The crouch-taunting video I posted was from vBrawl.

 

[Blues98]

Ok well I tried to fight a level 9 Weegee a few rounds and uhhh...

I WANT TO JUMP OUT A WINDOW NOW.

I still think Zelda and Pika are harder though.

 

[JamesRaynor]

Nobody ever claimed that the CPUs were geniuses or strategists, only that they're monkeys. The CPU sees you doing Up Smash after Down Air, or Sword Spin after Gale Boomerang, or Crouch Spam after Enemy Death, and it does the same thing. I don't think there was a huge amount of time and money spent on making Smash Bros into an experiment in robotic consciousness, but if some programmer could spend a few days making CPUs that could learn the habits of their opponents to make the game a bit more interesting I don't see why they wouldn't. There are a whole lot of other games (mostly sports games) that use the same or more advanced AI systems, so why not put one in Smash? It just makes sense, is what I'm saying.

As for B+, no claim has been made that CPUs learning behavior is more noticable in B+, on the contrary, B+ would presumably make them fail if their AI was fixed. The only question was whether or not the learning system is advanced enough to make them able to learn how to work well in B+ despite the altered physics.

Hence why I said pseudo learn.

 

[Dantarion]

CPU's dont learn. The replay format has been figured out, and it contains NO information about CPU AI, other than a random seed.

 

[Christian_CAO]

I don't think they can learn but... During a match I jump and committed suicide, and while I died the computer runs to a corner and starts bobbing up and down like I do on Wifi on a constant basis and I laughed so hard. If they don't learn then at least they can mimic effectively.

 

[Deleted member]

1234567890

 

[STUFF2o]

Back in my vBrawl days, My replays would sometimes desynch, on one occasion the CPU lost in the real fight, and won in the replay, lol, though it was mostly because the desynch caused my character to kill itself. This was before Ocarina codes, so that wasn't the cause.


My CPUs used to crouch taunt, too, In vBrawl. The problem is nobody that has played on my wii crouch taunts. So, they do that out of the box. I wonder why they stopped doing it in B+?

They learn from online Brawls, too. Also, I'd have to say that mimicking = learning. They are learning new possible patterns, crouch taunting being a noticeable one. And I do have some CPU's that crouch taunt. Obviously, CPU's don't think, like humans do, but they certainly learn to copy basic patterns after they've been repeated by humans.

 

[mobilisq]

then why does my level 9 ness suck at recovery