Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
"If you can't beat it, ban it" is the epitome of the scrub mentality. It doesn't matter how easy wobbling is. It's not game-breaking, so stop crying about it and figure out how to beat it.
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Beating the Infinite. Feel free to add.
- Thread starter chaddd
- Start date
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
fair enough; however let me modify my argument. Obviously if you could DI out of a given move at any %, comboing would be impossible. I assume you are reffering to things like chaingrabs when you say % specific escape; I have no problem with this b/c they still afford the person being thrown a few chances to get away. According to Wobbles the Phoenix, once he starts the wobble, it only ends if he messes up. You might as well put your controller down. What other combos does this apply to?
Also stop talking about mashing the buttons really loudly. It's not as though your opponent can't normally hear you pressing the buttons. All you will do is break your controller.
BigRick
Smash Master
When I was referring to other combos, I wasn't talking about chaingrabs, although they could fit in there to a certain extent. There are plenty of combos out there that are guaranteed/semi-guaranteed at specific percentages, and they won't work only if the player doing the combo messes up. Sure these combos will require alot more of skill in order to have perfect execution every time, but hey, you said earlier that skill doesn't matter...
Wonder why many non-Marths counterpick the space animals with Marth on FD? Basically cause Falco on FD playin a good Marth is the same as if he was playin good ICs... If he gets grabbed, he loses a stock.
I know that the ICs infinite gives them single most powerful move of the game. And that's just how it is, there will always be a char that has a more powerful move.
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
The problem is when the move becomes so much more powerful than any other move that the only recourse is to pick the same broken character, as clutch seems to be suggesting, or to be about 3x more skilled than the IC player so as to not leave yourself open for seven frames. Oh, and a grab on Falco with Marth is not auto-death. So far, human minds and hands have been incapabe of consistently 20-deathing Falco's who DI. The IC's are able to 20-death every character because the mind-numbing simplicity of the manuver renders DI nonexistent.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't know much about MVC2. Didn't they ban Akuma because of his fireballs raining down at a 45 degree angle. I guess MVC2 players have a scrub mentality. They couldn't beat it, so they banned it.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't know much about MVC2. Didn't they ban Akuma because of his fireballs raining down at a 45 degree angle. I guess MVC2 players have a scrub mentality. They couldn't beat it, so they banned it.
BigRick
Smash Master
See, you found the answer to the question by yourself! Either pick ICs or become better than the IC player!
Thank god we have this thread to share strategies about how to beat the ICs... So I guess I'll follow KishPrime's example and post a few vids as examples as how to play to ''not get grabbed''
Fox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2BJt5baU0
Falco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjUgOreekUc&mode=related&search=
Hmm, I don't play the space animals, so I'm too dumb to know a thing about them... but WOW, judging by these videos, it seems like they have that shiny move that comes out faster than an IC grab... and zomg it separates the ICs!
Marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOomgRLzYFM
Poor little eskimos! It seems like they can't get any close to that sword guy, since the sword is like 3x the length of their hammers!
No they didn't ban **** in MvC2...
Akuma was banned from SF2 because he is a boss character, and you have to use a cheat in order to use him. Boss characters are always banned from games in competitive play, like in our case, Giga Bowser.
Plz refrain from talking about other games in this thread. This thread is all about the ICs infinite, how to defeat it. Oh and sry for posting illegal OC2 vids lol.
Ending Comment: Every1 above ICs in the current tier list has a few tricks that they can use to kick the crap out of them.
chu12ch
Smash Journeyman
Seriously... if the person you are playing knows not to get grabbed, every character has a decent move that is quick or separates the climbers... i've even had my nana killed by ganon jabs at 0%...
leviathan_
Smash Journeyman
People against the infinites make it seem that they are easy to pull off. They are not, even the IC infinite ("wobbling") is tough to be consistent with.
chu12ch
Smash Journeyman
its not hard at all... it takes like one small practice session to find the timing... the only hard part is landing the grab against someone who knows they will die if they get grabbed (with nana around)...
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
It's easy once you get it started, but getting a grab with the ICs synched up against someone who knows what he's doing is fairly difficult.
chu12ch
Smash Journeyman
Exactly what I'm saying... It's just hard to land that syncd grab vs people who know what they're doing... Not everyone jumps right into your shield grabs...
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
Yeah, because the ICs have a pretty short grab range, you can't shield-grab a lot of aerials if your opponent spaces them appropriately. You can't shield-grab a Falco or Fox who L-cancels into JC shines. It's very hard to shield-grab a Marth unless the Marth is ********.
I've been working on my ICs for a while now, and just because I can do the infinite, it doesn't mean my ICs are good. I still have several characters that would do better in tournaments at this point, despite using this supposedly broken tactic.
I guess C-stick Marths would be angry because they can't spam fsmashes without getting punished for it with a wavedash => grab infinite. And various other bad kids.
Learn to space and don't miss L-cancels. Separate Nana and Popo, then destroy Nana. It's like comboing a lvl 1 cpu. If you can't kill Nana then you should just give up on this game now.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
just because it is "avoidable" doesn't mean it shouldn't be illegal.
chu12ch
Smash Journeyman
being avoidable isnt in the criteria for banned techniques... the only banned techniques consist of breaking the game, or making the game last indefinitely (or until the match ends)... which is why wobbling is considered banned only when used as a stall...
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
i'm not suggesting that it be not be banned b/c it's avoidable. i think it breaks the game. if the freeze glitch is banworthy why isn't the wobble?
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
IC's grab range isn't that short. It's hard to L-Cancel properly when you have the double shield to contend with, and if you miss one, it's over. C-stick Marths would be unhappy, yes, but C-Stick Ice Climbers can still spam their hammers because there is no way to completely take the stock away from them for performing one f-smash. That's unbalanced, that the IC's can spam noobiness about 20 times without dying whereas if Marth slips up four times, that's game. It's hard to kill Nana when Popo is there trying to prevent it.
Oh, and my bad about being misinformed on MVC2. It just feels like when the only reliable recourse in countering a character is to choose that character, as some are suggesting, there is a major problem in the balance of the game.
Oh, and my bad about being misinformed on MVC2. It just feels like when the only reliable recourse in countering a character is to choose that character, as some are suggesting, there is a major problem in the balance of the game.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
your point about IC's being able to spam w/o penalty is not particularly relevant. everyone knows that the game isn't balanced, however; i completely agree w/your final point.
edit: also, no one has actually defended the wobble as being a tactic that isn't broken. the arguments in favor of it simply blame the victim for not killing nana.
edit: also, no one has actually defended the wobble as being a tactic that isn't broken. the arguments in favor of it simply blame the victim for not killing nana.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
The freeze glitch has a serious risk of infinite stalling. What if Nana does up-throw and freezes with that? What if you accidentally hit the opponent too high to grab (sometimes when the opponent is frozen he moves slightly up when struck and never seems to move back down)? Sometimes the results of the freeze glitch cannot even be controlled by the Ice Climbers, while with wobbling they are always in control.
Bailey
Smash Hero
Congrats to everyone posting in this thread because you all just got post count increased and made me pick the ICs against people who complain about Wobbling I have no problem of what Wobbles did that is still why Wobbles is in my sig because Wobbles is the man. And comlaining about the Infinite has really done nothing at all and I think that this thread is pointless. The Infinite Grab has been around for so long and people start complaining now because Wobbles won a tournament. I mean does complaining a lot and *****ing a lot really stop anyone. Someone who throws you off the stage and Shines you doesn't get booed. It doesn't matter if it is cheap if you haven't noticed a lot of crap in this game is Cheap. Sheik, Peach and Marth. So if you can't beat them then either find a way or quit life BYE BYE.
~Bailey
~Bailey
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
like i gve a d***about my post count. if the thread is pointless, why are you posting? you just made a bunch of claims w/o substantiating any of them, but i'll entertain you for a few moments. i'm glad you mentioned the sheik, peach, and marth. while their moves may be annoying as hell and tough to counter, you can still get out of them-- not so for the wobble. fortunately , nana's not too hard to kill off (as so many people wobble apologists have pointed out), but that doesn't make the move any less broken.
Bailey
Smash Hero
Ok so Wobbling is cheap woo hoo we have established that. All I am saying is that people are going to natuarally complain about **** in this game and we know it. If it isn't this then it is CGing if it isn't CGing then there is gonna be Fox's Waveshine. THIS THREAD HAS NO PURPOSE BESIDES POINTING OUT THE FACT THAT YOU ALL DON'T LIKE IT THAT WOBBLES WON USING THE INFINTE GRAB. I BET IF YOU NOOBS WON USING IT YOU WOULDN'T GIVE A **** ABOUT THREADS LIKE THIS I AM OUT THIS CRAP SHOULD BE CLOSED.
cemo
white walker
Tar, I don't think you know what broken means.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
wobbling is not comparable to chain grabbing. you seem to think i have some vendetta against wobbles. i don't know wobbles, but i know that he uses the wobble when he can. i don't think he's good just b/c of the wobble, but i still think it should be illegal. the recent tournament is just a showcase of why i think the wobble should be banned.
like i said b/f, don't post if you don't like the thread.
edit: and stop typing in caps like you are screaming.
like i said b/f, don't post if you don't like the thread.
edit: and stop typing in caps like you are screaming.
Bailey
Smash Hero
Ok this thread is doing its main purpose increasing my post count and nothing else. It can be illegal but what if you grab Blizzard, D-Tilt, Blizzard, D-Smash are you gonna ban that too?
BigRick
Smash Master
Man this thread isn't really about if we should ban the infinite or not...
It's about giving tips on how to beat it.
The infinite won't be banned in major tournies... so there's no point in argueing about this anymore. Tar if you wanna see the infinite gone then host your own little tourney man.
It's about giving tips on how to beat it.
The infinite won't be banned in major tournies... so there's no point in argueing about this anymore. Tar if you wanna see the infinite gone then host your own little tourney man.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
i'm using the word broken denotatively. as far as i'm concerned banning it is beating it.
Stryk9
Smash Journeyman
i agree that it doesn't entirely break the game
but it does make iceclimbers substantially better than every other character and i also hoped never to have infinites in smashbros because its not that type of game in my eyes
but it does make iceclimbers substantially better than every other character and i also hoped never to have infinites in smashbros because its not that type of game in my eyes
Bailey
Smash Hero
I hope Tar holds a tournament so I can Wobble my way down there and win with ICs lol. Nice little debate Tar good job. As for beating it don't get grabbed.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
if i have one i'll let you know, but the wobble won't save you.
also, you're bound to get grabbed eventually. you just have to hope you ko nana b/f it happens.
also, you're bound to get grabbed eventually. you just have to hope you ko nana b/f it happens.
McCloudDash91
Smash Cadet
I have a way to beat the infinite. If the other guy is using it simply to annoy you and you cant break free, just punch him in the face. Instant win if you ko him.
For real though, nobody wobbles to stall a match. Button mashing fails at life, and the rhythm is screwed up real easy by your own thoughts so it doesnt even last long. Hence it's impossible to use as a stall, and therefore has no reason to be banned. imo, its a fair way to gain cheap damage, much like Fox's laser is a fair way to gain cheap damage, even easier in fact, so why not ban fox too?
For real though, nobody wobbles to stall a match. Button mashing fails at life, and the rhythm is screwed up real easy by your own thoughts so it doesnt even last long. Hence it's impossible to use as a stall, and therefore has no reason to be banned. imo, its a fair way to gain cheap damage, much like Fox's laser is a fair way to gain cheap damage, even easier in fact, so why not ban fox too?
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
I can wobble indefinitely. It's easy. The only time I tend to mess up is right near the beginning if my opponent is mashing the buttons extremely loudly or something else that distracts me before I get it set up.
petre
Smash Lord
LOL!!! im gonna MM you. but wait! its my ruleset. youre banned. YAY I WIN!!!
dont ban stuff, unless it makes the game unplayable. if the ic's could begin the infinite as soon as the game started, then yeah, id would be cheap. but they acutally have to DO something to even ATTEMPT to BEGIN it. it IS possible to AVOID BEING GRABBED FOUR TIMES IN A ROW IN A WAY THAT LETS THE IC'S START THE INFINITE. ok? not impossible. maybe difficult against really advanced players, but then again, what match wouldnt be?
McCloudDash91
Smash Cadet
And again.
Hey petre
And shai, im saying there are almost always outside circumstances and distractions that make the wobble impossible to be a true stall. Its as simple as killing the enemy's concentration and voila, you're free.
Hey petre
And shai, im saying there are almost always outside circumstances and distractions that make the wobble impossible to be a true stall. Its as simple as killing the enemy's concentration and voila, you're free.
chu12ch
Smash Journeyman
I dont understand how wobbling cant be comparable to a chain grab... its just a grab combo...
LuCKy
Smash Master
lol wobbleing isnt that bad and why do you hate it so much who has ***** you so bad with the wobbles to make you hate it this much??? i have been wobbled a couple times and it dosent piss my off at all i know i can do it but its my fault for getting grabbed before killing nana that is how i see it atleast if you kill nana the wobbles is gone.now what i realy hat is jiggly her down b is a ****in kill like after 10 damage no matter what and me as fox as my main all she has to do is grab me and throw me up fast enough before i di and no its not that simple to di it for me i know it seems simple but play like king or mango lol as fox and it will happen and even gayer she can throw you off and hit just tap you like twice and your dead there is so many gay things in this game but trying to ban them is not the way find a way around it like the wobbles kill nana
jiggly pick something even gayer to get the jiggly pissed lol thats the reason for my ic's
chu12ch
Smash Journeyman
(vs jiggs as fox, i usually just run away with lazers then usmash or uair to kill, if i do get caught in the uthrow rests, i di towards dying, come back, shoot a bunch of lasers, charge a usmash and kill...)
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
Why not read some of the posts before making one of your own, eh? Oh, and for the earlier discussion about the word broken, I see "broken" as an unintended creation/development flaw that imbalances the game. Ice Climbers, I don't think, were meant to be able to Wobble, hence, the wobble is broken, IMO. Fox's shine was also not supposed to have offensive capabilities. It, too, is broken. The difference is that Fox's shine requires substantial technical skill to be able to use effectively, thus rendering a reward for the player with that amount of skill to harness, and thus not being "cheap." Wobbling requires minimal skill, hence it is "cheap."
http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
read this
I would argue that until the IC's become unbeatably dominant, there's no reason to gripe about the chain grab. Until we see wobbles (or some other IC) winning every tourney consistently, the infinite is just part of the game... because if an IC player isn't winning every tourney, then... well, someone's found a way to beat the grabs, so you can too.
The other articles on the site are pretty interesting too.
PS. the IC's infinite is by no means lose-proof (unlike akuma).
And I don't mean to imply that anyone is a scrub or anything like that, that's just the terminology the author uses.
read this
I would argue that until the IC's become unbeatably dominant, there's no reason to gripe about the chain grab. Until we see wobbles (or some other IC) winning every tourney consistently, the infinite is just part of the game... because if an IC player isn't winning every tourney, then... well, someone's found a way to beat the grabs, so you can too.
The other articles on the site are pretty interesting too.
PS. the IC's infinite is by no means lose-proof (unlike akuma).
And I don't mean to imply that anyone is a scrub or anything like that, that's just the terminology the author uses.
LuCKy
Smash Master
lol that was his second post and he made more sence than all 14 pages of this thread XPhttp://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
read this
I would argue that until the IC's become unbeatably dominant, there's no reason to gripe about the chain grab. Until we see wobbles (or some other IC) winning every tourney consistently, the infinite is just part of the game... because if an IC player isn't winning every tourney, then... well, someone's found a way to beat the grabs, so you can too.
The other articles on the site are pretty interesting too.
PS. the IC's infinite is by no means lose-proof (unlike akuma).
And I don't mean to imply that anyone is a scrub or anything like that, that's just the terminology the author uses.
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
First of all, thank you for being an intelligent smash newb and not spamming the thread with, "infinite is not cheap, play to win scrubbes roflzzz" I read the article. The way I see it, the infinite is a "bug" in that it immobilizes your opponent's character and kills them no matter what they do. It is an unintended programming flaw, IMO. As the article suggests, we should examine whether the bug is "too much." You are correct in stating that IC's do not currently dominate every major tourney. I think that this is largely attributed to the fact that many players, especially pros, who have spent much time perfecting their mains, do not want to switch to the now unbalanced IC's. However, many amateurs who have not developed their characters as well (including myself) have switched to the IC's and are performing much better than they could with any other character. It is only a matter of time before a third of the smash community reluctantly gives up their main for a chance to perform and defend against the wobble. This is already beginning to occur, as hordes of previously nonexistant IC mains are entering the tourney scene. Why not nip this in the bud right now? IC's have a competent grab game and can infinite chaingrab at least as many characters as Fox can waveshine. The infinite is not lose proof, but it does allow the IC's a large discrepency in skill.http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
read this
I would argue that until the IC's become unbeatably dominant, there's no reason to gripe about the chain grab. Until we see wobbles (or some other IC) winning every tourney consistently, the infinite is just part of the game... because if an IC player isn't winning every tourney, then... well, someone's found a way to beat the grabs, so you can too.
The other articles on the site are pretty interesting too.
PS. the IC's infinite is by no means lose-proof (unlike akuma).
And I don't mean to imply that anyone is a scrub or anything like that, that's just the terminology the author uses.
Hm. Well, the thing is that at upper levels of play, the infinite is really just another move to keep away from, like say jigglypuff's rest (though a lot less punishable of course). So at upper levels of play, like say in the MLG, its not necessary to ban the infinite... in fact, the infinite helps somewhat to balance the ice climbers, maybe moving them up ranks in the tier since they can now more effectively compete with the high/top tier characters.... by more effectively punishing mistakes.
The IC's are the same old icy's they used to be... they still rely on grabs and desyncs for damage/kills as they did before... just that now a grab can be situationally a stock depending on the existance/position of nana.
So yeah, it sucks for less-skilled players. But at the top it won't matter as much... just there might be a new fox rival in town... or two halves of one. I'm sure top players will find ways to counter the IC's if they become a real threat, just as people adapt to any new strat... and most likely just with an increased emphasis on killing nana.
This is pretty similar to the mass of shieks and then the mass of fox/falco's after shine was mastered. Yes the infinite grab is easier to get a hang of than fox or falco, but if all you know how to do is excecute the infinite after a grab, you aren't going to get that far against people who are better than you as they wil not get grabbed or will kill nana easily...
So the non-IC newbies will learn how to kill nana effectively, and until they get there the IC newbies will do a lot better than them, which sucks for them, but in the long run the IC newbies will be a lot worse off finding them in situations they don't really know how to handle.
Basically, yes, the infinite is rather cheap, but its still not game-breaking... at least not yet. Once it is, then ban it by all means - if a 1/3 of people really only play IC's. But for now the extent of the problem seems overexaggerated, and you can't know that it will become that serious until it does.
The IC's are the same old icy's they used to be... they still rely on grabs and desyncs for damage/kills as they did before... just that now a grab can be situationally a stock depending on the existance/position of nana.
So yeah, it sucks for less-skilled players. But at the top it won't matter as much... just there might be a new fox rival in town... or two halves of one. I'm sure top players will find ways to counter the IC's if they become a real threat, just as people adapt to any new strat... and most likely just with an increased emphasis on killing nana.
This is pretty similar to the mass of shieks and then the mass of fox/falco's after shine was mastered. Yes the infinite grab is easier to get a hang of than fox or falco, but if all you know how to do is excecute the infinite after a grab, you aren't going to get that far against people who are better than you as they wil not get grabbed or will kill nana easily...
So the non-IC newbies will learn how to kill nana effectively, and until they get there the IC newbies will do a lot better than them, which sucks for them, but in the long run the IC newbies will be a lot worse off finding them in situations they don't really know how to handle.
Basically, yes, the infinite is rather cheap, but its still not game-breaking... at least not yet. Once it is, then ban it by all means - if a 1/3 of people really only play IC's. But for now the extent of the problem seems overexaggerated, and you can't know that it will become that serious until it does.