Beating the Infinite. Feel free to add.

[1048576]

I call BS!!!

First off, Wobbles is awesome for two reasons:

1. He's managed to piss so many people off for using something that everyone else is too much of a stoner to figure out that it's a GOOD WAY TO WIN. And better still? He's just as well known as ChuDat for doing so. Whoa, shawty.

2. He plays to win WHEN IT MATTERS. When you want to just have fun, then no infinite will be performed in friendly matches. When there's money on the line, you can bet your soul that Captain Jack will forever chain throw in the finals, Isai will chase you off the stage with the knee and U-air, all Fox's will be shining-to-death 0% opponents, and Peaches and Marths will be abusing the Smash attack for the hopeful 0-Death attack. Stop pretending like the Ice Climbers infinite is lamer than anything else, while still trying to defend the rest of the game's integrity.


Hypocrisy is awesome when it's performed while still completely unaware of it's presence.

I think the infinite is lamer than anything else (with the possible exception of the shinespike.) Re-read my first post. I'm not saying he shouldn't be using it. In fact, I'm glad he brought it to the attention of the smash community. I just have a problem with people who deny the move is cheap and broken.

 

[Wobbles]

If it were broken, I'd be winning every tournament. And you should not have a conception of "cheap" in competitive fighting games.

You want to know why I get mad at mood4idiocy?

1) His post contains false information. Chu used the infinite at MLG Vegas. He started using it as far back as OC2, and even pulled it on people at his bi-weeklies.

2) I know several people who have been unable to figure out the infinite. In fact, I get PM's from people asking me questions about how to sync it up right, when it can be done, and if there are any strategies for it.

3) It's not as easy as the moron claims it is. Just because you can do something on a training dummy doesn't mean you are gonna be able to pull it on a skilled opponent (let alone under the pressure of a tournament). In fact, if he weren't so hung up on "durr it's cheap," then I'd challenge him to use it on a big name player with any real success. But he'll never back up his claim, which shows him for the scrub he is.

4) He maligns my skill without playing me. You saw a video, huh? Yeah, real good way to discern my ability. Here's an idea; go ask the following players if I'm skilled:
Taj
Forward
King
Germ
Zelgadis
HugS
BloodOfTheFallen
CAOTIC
Edrees
Any number of highly ranked Texas players
Groups of skilled NorCal and SoCal players
Your mom. Was that uncalled for? Don't care. Bite me.

5) Do you know just how good Edrees and HugS are? Or, how about this: Forward, who I just managed to (barely) beat in a tournament? Zarelid, whom I also beat? Edrees, who I rarely EVER get to grab and still manage to secure wins against? Or maybe my close sets against Taj where I land about one infinite every lunar cycle?

You want me to summarize how to beat the infinite? First, play in a way that avoids grabs. Space your moves properly and don't make idiotic mistakes. Two, focus your fire on Nana and keeping us separated. If you know IC's and Nana's AI patterns in the slightest (something that comes from just a little experience and research), then you will have an easy time doing this. . Three, mash yourself out of the grab before I can begin the infinite. I can do it pretty quickly since I've practiced, but there's still a window. The only time I'm going to land an infinite IMMEDIATELY is if you're dumb enough to get shield grabbed.

You want my justification for using it? Here it is:

1: If it's effective and NOT banned, I'd be dumb for not using it.
2: I need to maximize every opportunity I get. The better you are, the fewer chances I have to punish you, and if I can use the infinite, I will.
3: Of course my grab game is centered around the infinite: all other grab combos are inferior, apart from the tried and true smash combos. So it makes sense I would use the best one.

Why it shouldn't be banned:

1: It's highly situational!
2: Skilled opponents, you know, the kind that deserve to win, can avoid it by following measures outlined above.
3: It may have changed the way you're used to thinking about the game, but it has not redefined it in a way that makes other characters not worth playing.
4: If it were broken, Chu would have won MLG Vegas using it, yeah? Instead, he loses to Azen and Isai. Wait, you mean he lost to THE Isai that he always beat before without the use of this supposedly broken tactic? So you're telling me that when Isai simply plays better, Chu loses infinite or not? Huh. How about that.
5: Difficulty has little to do with it's deserved ban. In fact, if it's SO easy, why aren't you doing it?
6: The infinite has a POSITIVE (i.e., not a negative one) impact on the people around you. It encourages them to become better. Let me rephrase that. It MAKES them better. Even in friendlies, Forward would insist I use it to help him learn to avoid grabs. He wanted one grab to equal a stock so that he would learn even more dominant strategies. That's the mindset of a winner, and that's why Forward is playing on the level of people like ChuDat, HugS, and DSF. I theorize that if each community had an infinite using IC in its ranks, then the general level of smashers would rise.

Sorry if my post was a bit too acrid for your tastes, Numbers. I do not take myself that seriously, but if mood gets to spread his stupidity any farther, we'll have a lot of people on smashboards dying because they forgot how to breathe.

 

[Hozart]

6: The infinite has a POSITIVE (i.e., not a negative one) impact on the people around you. It encourages them to become better. Let me rephrase that. It MAKES them better. Even in friendlies, Forward would insist I use it to help him learn to avoid grabs. He wanted one grab to equal a stock so that he would learn even more dominant strategies. That's the mindset of a winner, and that's why Forward is playing on the level of people like ChuDat, HugS, and DSF. I theorize that if each community had an infinite using IC in its ranks, then the general level of smashers would rise.

That's a really good point there, which I'll tell my play group. I'm very interested in seeing how this game will evolve from here. Next tournament I go to I will be using the infinite just to see if it can be beat, which means I shouldn't get first place when greater skilled players attend, and I'll be bringing my Ipod to drown out the booing.

If it can be defeated, however, I may feel justified in using it even in friendlies. Ice Climbers may have no counter now.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

yea wobbles is a solid ic, i just watched him vs hugs and he knows what hes doing. lol wobbles i see hugo jabs a lot now vs ic after i had to lay massive destruction upon him at mlg chicago.

 

[AS Money]

lol the only quote i have heard of wobbles is "i lived in cali for a while and it is as gay as it sounds"

if you cant beat gay than you cant beat skill

wobbles is too good from what i hear though and i will probably never play him so oh well

unless he gose to FC10 if there is one

 

[1048576]

I'm aware that the infinite requires some skill. I'm also aware that you are a very good IC's player even without the infinite. I'm one of the people that respect your game. I just think that the results gained from using the infinite are disproportionately greater than the input skill required to perform a "wobble," which is my definition of cheap. Heck, I suck, and even I can (and do) wobble. Peach's Downsmash, Marth's F-Smash, and Falco's SHL are also cheap, but not to the degree that the infinite is. You say you hardly ever get a grab on Edrees, but in the video most of us have seen, you grabbed him three times for three stocks. That's how most people assume you play because that video is how you are known to the smash community. In the match against HugS, Hugs never even shielded; that's how he won. With all due respect, I don't think you can appreciate how frustrating, or difficult it is to have to eat every attack thrown at you, (because you can't shield) while your retaliation is met with a double shield, just because (almost) every time you get grabbed, you die.

By the way, I never understood that comeback: bite me. Is it some sort of ******** slang innuendo? I wouldn't want someone to bite me. It sounds like it would hurt. It seems like you may as well have said, Was that uncalled for? Don't care. Punch me.

 

[Lixivium]

You say you hardly ever get a grab on Edrees, but in the video most of us have seen, you grabbed him three times for three stocks. That's how most people assume you play because that video is how you are known to the smash community.

Then you probably also saw the match where HugS got infinited twice in one game and still won. The infinite is not game-breaking at high levels.

In the match against HugS, Hugs never even shielded; that's how he won. With all due respect, I don't think you can appreciate how frustrating, or difficult it is to have to eat every attack thrown at you, (because you can't shield) while your retaliation is met with a double shield, just because (almost) every time you get grabbed, you die.

It's just as frustrating to get chain grabbed by Marth from 0-death. I wish they'd stop doing it too. But as I see it there are two options when you encounter a frustrating tactic:

1) Step up your game and bring yourself to a high enough level to counter that tactic.
2) Ask the other player to step down their game.

You make your choice.

 

[Wobbles]

Numbers, you assume that I never played against an IC who infinites, when the opposite is true. My best friend, when playing as the IC's, would infinite me every time I let him get a grab. I do, in fact, know what it's like to play against somebody who infinites.

"Bite me" was directed at mood4food77, and yes, is a slang term.

 

[1048576]

It's significantly less frustrating to get chaingrabbed by Marth from 0 to death because you can DI, making it much harder for the Marth to continue the grab. You can also use DI to prevent the tipper and transform it into an unsweeetspotted garbage attack. The way I see it, a Marth player who is skilled enough to follow my DI and then land the tipper gets a much less cheap kill than an IC's who is skilled enough to look at another game on another screen while going dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, etc... It feels unfair when the IC's goes in for a wild Smash, leaving Nana behind and all sorts of other crazy stuff, and takes about 50% from a random grab/smash combo, yet I put up my shield and lose a stock.

 

[AzN_Lep]

The way I see it, a Yoshi player who is skilled enough to follow my DI with JC'd u-airs consistantly hitting with every one gets a much less cheap kill than a Marth player who simply chainthrows me and gets a tipper.

Characters are going to have "cheap" attacks, combos, you name it. At one point you get past what is considered "cheap" and play to win. As long as the infinite isn't banned, it would be dumb not to use it at your disposal.

 

[1048576]

I'm aware that not using the infinite would be dumb. I'm just saying that it is the most cheap maneuver in the game because the results of the tactic (a stock taken) are disproportionately greater than the required input skill ( looking at another game on another screen while going dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, etc...) Because of this, I advocate its banning by setting an arbitrary limit on how many tilts Nana is allowed per grab (three sounds good). I agree, though, that as long as the infinite is not banned, people should continue to use it everytime they land a grab.

 

[Hozart]

A noble idea Numbers. Although I must note that it seems like too much work to try and keep track of how many tilts a player has done, also, there's a possibility that one's opponent could say "Hey! You used four tilts!" regardless of whether you did so or not. What would happen to the offending player?

 

[mood4food77]

ok, wobbles, i apologize for my comment, just relax and everything will be ok

i have never seen your ICs in a match, so i assumed that it would take a while to reach up to a high level, and that you were "cheating" in a way by using the infinite, i hate this tactic, i feel it should be banned because of what MLG states what tactics banned, but whatever, i refues to use it, i consider it cheap and not a pure showing of skill, since the only hard part about it is grabbing the opponent with popo, which isn't the hardest thing in the world, so you keep using hte infinite and i won't, deal?

 

[Lixivium]

A noble idea Numbers. Although I must note that it seems like too much work to try and keep track of how many tilts a player has done, also, there's a possibility that one's opponent could say "Hey! You used four tilts!" regardless of whether you did so or not. What would happen to the offending player?

I think the mods have already come up with a rule that you can't go past 300% damage using the infinite, to prevent excessive stalling.

 

[1048576]

ok, wobbles, i apologize for my comment, just relax and everything will be ok

i have never seen your ICs in a match, so i assumed that it would take a while to reach up to a high level, and that you were "cheating" in a way by using the infinite, i hate this tactic, i feel it should be banned because of what MLG states what tactics banned, but whatever, i refues to use it, i consider it cheap and not a pure showing of skill, since the only hard part about it is grabbing the opponent with popo, which isn't the hardest thing in the world, so you keep using hte infinite and i won't, deal?

You're going to lose every tourney you enter if you refuse to use cheap tactics. What about Shinespiking? SHL? Marth's F-Smash? Peach's Down Smash? Anyway, Lixivium, I don't see the problem as stalling, I see the problem as the undeserved stock loss from such a cheap tactic. When a player can't shield anymore, there's a problem. Anyway, if you use four tilts, you forfeit a stock if someone can prove it. (Responding to Hozart) This way, you can still use your three tilts, (or two, if you want to play it safe in case you mess up) and chaingrab to practically infinity anyway. This way, the results of the tactic are the same (a loss of stock) but the input skill required to achieve the result is much greater.

Heh, Wobbles, they worship you. Nobody's called me numbers before now. Look what you did.

 

[Buddha]

we all know its gay. no one is debating that. but its not banned and nobody here is in a place to make that decision. nor does your opinion count on that subject at all. whatsoever. so until they ban it, stfu about it already. i personally dont use it (well, maybe on occasion :/), but i play to win like everyone else. pull your panties up.

 

[Thomaz]

"Bite me" was directed at mood4food77, and yes, is a slang term.

lol, that reminds me of Yuri Hyuuga for some reason. ^_~

Oh, and good post about the infinite. It's not a broken move. Learn to do something against it. ^.^

 

[Sock]

how hard is it to kill that stupid female dwarf?

People are so rude about Nana. She's been around longer than you have, show a lil respect.

 

[1048576]

we all know its gay. no one is debating that. but its not banned and nobody here is in a place to make that decision. nor does your opinion count on that subject at all. whatsoever. so until they ban it, stfu about it already. i personally dont use it (well, maybe on occasion :/), but i play to win like everyone else. pull your panties up.

That seems unnecessarily abrasive. Nobody with any power over the tourrnament game cares what you have to say either, but do I flame you for it? I have just as much right to post in this thread as you. You act as if I'm one of those people who whine that people who use the infinite are soulless douchetards. I hate the maneuver, not the user. I've accepted its current use in the community just as much as you have, if not more, because I also have to deal with the whining that comes with using the tactic. (I do it, too.) If you don't use it even though you have the skill to do so, then you are unnecessarily penalizing yourself. I'm not stupid. I know this. I can understand that you might be upset if you feel that I've pulled the thread away from it's original intention, but you certainly didn't help in bringing it back. In fact, all you did was start a potential flame war, and you're lucky I'm not participating, as I'm clearly more articulate than you.

Anyway, to beat the infinite, platform camp. Run from platform to platform, and only come down to peg them with a few projectiles. If you make a mistake, you're done, so just drink coffee beforehand I guess

 

[mood4food77]

i use cheap tactics, but i refuse to use the infinite grab, it demotes people as an IC user when we use it, i can be gay as heck when i want to be, especially with ICs (taking off 2 stocks in 30 seconds is pretty gay in my standards), and using the SHL is cheap too, i still use it, all fighting games are about being cheap, so, gotta be cheap to win, i consider using the infinite grab as cheating and i refuse to cheat in a fight

 

[1048576]

I'm not sure if the developers realized that Nana could start an infinite with her tilts. If they did not realize this, then the move goes from cheap to broken, (an unintended creation flaw.) On the other hand, I'm not sure if the developers realized that the shine could be used as an offensive maneuver, so w/e. It doesn't really matter if the infinite is broken or not. The point is that it's extremely cheap.

I know this post broght nothing to the discussion, but it seems like a waste to delete all that stuff, so, ummm... eat post noobxorz.

 

[purekorea]

I'm sure the developers were atleast somewhat aware of it. If you watch the special movie when it gets to ice climbers there is a scene where popo grabs someone and nana starts ftilting.

 

[Hozart]

Don't forget level counter-picks

Another method for countering the infinite is selecting Peach (or equivalent floaty character) and counter-picking Brinstar, Poke Floats, or Rainbow Cruise. Brinstar, in my opinion, may be one's best bet, for the lava can save you at times.

 

[purekorea]

Why is peach a counter to ICs?

 

[Hozart]

In many areas Peach out-prioritizes the Icys, but the most painful is hte down-smash, which not only separates the Ice Climbers, but also turns Nana the other way, so she ends up dying earlier than she usually does. Another reason might be that her floating enables a sort of "mobile platform" at any point on the stage. Camping the platforms already gives Icys trouble, Peach can camp the platforms at any location. I won't delve into the art of platform camping, but someone who does it right will find multiple opportunities to attack the Icys.

Luckily, with the advent of the infinite, Peach is more apt to stay in the air, so there should be less down-smashing.

 

[mood4food77]

it's not the fact it's powerful, it's the fact it's disjointed, so the ICs can't grab her, very annoying

 

[mog112]

honestly my biggest problem with it is just the fact you have to sit there and watch it.

if you could infinite and kill them automatically it wouldnt really bother me and i would already be playing, it is just the fact that i sit there for a couple of mins doing nothing.

 

[1048576]

honestly my biggest problem with it is just the fact you have to sit there and watch it.

if you could infinite and kill them automatically it wouldnt really bother me and i would already be playing, it is just the fact that i sit there for a couple of mins doing nothing.

You could try to make your opponent laugh so they screw up. At least then watching it won't be as painful

 

[chu12ch]

i like to pause just once... it usually works...

 

[1nfern0x]

hmm thats a tad cheap..

but fun in friendies...

also do it to a recovering ness for many laughs

 

[/\/1/\/J4]

yea pausing would definetly screw up their timing but a little cheap no? guna be pretty funny though.

 

[1048576]

Or you could say A, A, A, etc... with a slightly different timing than what is required to Wobble perfectly. Don't know if that would work though. At least it's not illegal unlike pausing (I think)

 

[chu12ch]

or you can make a motion like ur gonna unplug their controller...

*new idea... if someone wobbles you... instead of 3 tilts max, they can do it as long as they can, but you can knock their controller/hands around...

 

[1048576]

or you can make a motion like ur gonna unplug their controller...

*new idea... if someone wobbles you... instead of 3 tilts max, they can do it as long as they can, but you can knock their controller/hands around...[/QUOTE:

*ahem

 

[Ghostype]

Meh, I don't care about the infinite. It'd be kind of hard for me to get caught in it since I'm a Peach that downsmash whores.... There's worse in other games as many have already posted anyway; so people shouldn't whine about something this silly.

We look like look a bunch of punks that can't handle a challenge in our game. We should just join the fighting games with gay infinites club, quit complaining, and learn how to not suck at combating them.

 

[1048576]

Yes, thank you for setting the discussion back about three pages. First off, if the IC knows how to wavedash, you will get grabbed if you spam downsmash (It's not too hard to predict). Secondly, the problem isn't so much that there is an infinite in Smash (although it would be nice to play a competitive fighting game without one). The problem is that the IC's have the only real infinite in the game, and it's easy to set up and execute, thus the IC's are now an unbalanced character. If every character had an easy infinite, then it wouldn't be so bad, but where most characters can only take off about 40-50 damage given a seven frame opening, the IC's can knock off a whole stock.

 

[chu12ch]

about my messing with their controller technique, i thought of a way to make it less broken... they can move as much as they want, trying to stop you from messing them up... but the interesting thing is that it's a gamecube controller, dont have very far to move...

 

[TAK$]

Yes, thank you for setting the discussion back about three pages. First off, if the IC knows how to wavedash, you will get grabbed if you spam downsmash (It's not too hard to predict). Secondly, the problem isn't so much that there is an infinite in Smash (although it would be nice to play a competitive fighting game without one). The problem is that the IC's have the only real infinite in the game, and it's easy to set up and execute, thus the IC's are now an unbalanced character. If every character had an easy infinite, then it wouldn't be so bad, but where most characters can only take off about 40-50 damage given a seven frame opening, the IC's can knock off a whole stock.

you obviously don't understand him/never played him, so i wouldnt talk if i were you, and as far ic's having the only real infinite, i hope you're joking.

 

[Nafix]

If your talking about fox having a true infinite then you must be joking.

 

[TAK$]

fox's is a true infinite, i did it to someone on corneria for 7 mins till the match was over, and there are like, what 2-3 more in teams? sheik's, fox's, and falco's, if i recall correctly, maybe more but that's all i can remember for now. there are more, but you should know what they are, if not, then i don't really need to waste my time responding to you, but if anyone else that knows what they're talking about wants to input anything, sure. this thread is pretty much over with and pointless now anyway.