BBR Weekly Character Discussion #26: Bowser

[Darkmusician]

Bowser's f-smash punishes Marth for constantly trying to space at tip range. More proof that Sakurai disapproves of thinking.

 

[MrEh]

Exactly. Predicted grounded swings from Marth can be punished by Fsmash, assuming the Marth was spacing. (What Marth doesn't do this?) Of course, it's inadvisable to attempt Fsmashes until you get a good read on your opponent's particular spacing and habits. Once you figure that out, start throwing out your big head.

Fsmash and Ftilt are tools that condition a Marth player to stop playing like a Marth should. It's a pretty stupid how Bowser can actually Marth for spacing properly, but again, Sakurai doesn't approve of thinking.

 

[Darkmusician]

Another annoying (but good thing) thing about up B on the ground is that even if you block it he can spin around your shield and make you guess what side to turn to punish him. Some chars can punish regardless of what side he ends up on, but most players first instinct is to go for a grab or something big depending on the character. It's so ambiguous and if you're off on the punish by even half a split second Bowser will just spin again. And the active frames on the up b keep you in your shield until the very end of the move.

 

[Zigsta]

Snake and Marth are two of the big reasons I started using Bowser a lot more. Those are two MUs I've been having trouble with as PT, and I personally find Bowser to do better against both of them.

 

[Darkmusician]

I stopped using Snake on MrEhs Bowser because he never misses his bair edgeguards whenever I cypher. It's so big and fast especially from a ledge hop up.

 

[Kofu]

I use Game & Watch, and his match-up with Marth is really icky. I do think that Marth's kinda fun to fight, though, as long as you don't rush it.

As for Snake, Game & Watch's Match-up with him is... irritating. Winnable, but irritating. So I figure Bowser will help there.

Of course, I could just go Ganon. lol

 

[MrEh]

Mind as well go Ganon.

Snake gets *****.

 

[Cassius.]

I only have problems with Diddy and Ice Climbers...if I feel like being bold I usually go Bowser vs MK.

If not, I use Falco on everything except ICs. I haven't found anyone for them yet <_<

 

[lordhelmet]

I only have problems with Diddy and Ice Climbers...if I feel like being bold I usually go Bowser vs MK.

If not, I use Falco on everything except ICs. I haven't found anyone for them yet <_<

Snake.

He's EZ just ftilt and keep a grenade in your hand.

 

[Zigsta]

I only have problems with Diddy and Ice Climbers...if I feel like being bold I usually go Bowser vs MK.

If not, I use Falco on everything except ICs. I haven't found anyone for them yet <_<

Snake and R.O.B. are solid choices.

I prefer PT myself.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon is better than Bowser. Bowser is terrible.

I'm not sure about AA saying Bowser is 2nd worst, but that ballpark is fairly close imo.

He has the worst recovery in the game, and he's free on juggle. And he doesn't really have a real approach. Ganon can beat this character with some semblance of viability.

 

[MrEh]

Falcon is better than Bowser. Bowser is terrible.

I'm not sure about AA saying Bowser is 2nd worst, but that ballpark is fairly close imo.

He has the worst recovery in the game, and he's free on juggle. And he doesn't really have a real approach. Ganon can beat this character with some semblance of viability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2PovD2wd1g#t=0m18s

 

[KillerJawz]

Falcon is better than Bowser. Bowser is terrible.

I'm not sure about AA saying Bowser is 2nd worst, but that ballpark is fairly close imo.

He has the worst recovery in the game, and he's free on juggle. And he doesn't really have a real approach. Ganon can beat this character with some semblance of viability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2PovD2wd1g#t=0m18s

I couldn't help but chuckle.

A2Z do you play Falcon or Bowser? You're posting in these BBR threads, spewing this... rubbish? No approach? Dude he isn't Zelda.

 

[Dumbfire]

I think Ganondorf - Bowser is overrated for Bowser, Ganon cant do anything safe on shield and his grab is trash, the only good thing he can do here is Flame Choke and if you miss thats like another 18 Damage. And worst Vertical Distance Up B isnt the worst recovery. His air momentum, fastfall speed and DJ length make it less worse then recoverys like Link. And he cant be hit out of hit by most characters like Ganon can be hit out of his up b. And the arial version has SA frames too right?

 

[Flayl]

One of these days A2Z and BPC will make it into the back room.

And I won't even be surprised.

 

[Dumbfire]

They should let Vex in first :]

 

[A2ZOMG]

I couldn't help but chuckle.

A2Z do you play Falcon or Bowser? You're posting in these BBR threads, spewing this... rubbish? No approach? Dude he isn't Zelda.

As a matter of a fact, I'm fairly competent with both characters. There's quite a few characters I've had spare time to get better with.

I'm kinda sad that people still get baited by stuff like airdodge -> Up-B, and that a lot of people don't have a real idea how proper edgeguarding/edgetrapping works. For his approach, he's basically got sliding shield, which is pretty fundamental for all characters, and he has a slow and laggy grab. Up-B is okay but doesn't pose as much of a threat against characters with good vertical spacing, and he kinda doesn't have much else to really reliably anti-air with when you stay away from his F-tilt range. Oh yeah and then Aerial Klaw, yeah it would be amazing if it was something like a frame 9 move, but it's frame 17, something you can avoid or interrupt on reaction.

Bowser is overall probably one of the most exploitable characters in the game when it comes to how many positions you can dominate him a lot in. He sucks above you, and his recovery has the least amount of vertical mixup available out of all characters. This character can do nothing to avoid getting hit when recovering, and in several matchups, that means he also is easy to gimp or KO despite his weight class.

Falcon has better run speed which means more characters whose zoning he's cappable of breaking. He's pretty decent at consistent juggles and can kinda play to camp and run away. Oh and his recovery is significantly better, as well as his Jab game. And he has an existent safe spacing game with B-air as well as a few other safe KO moves like D-smash and U-tilt. He has good matchups against Wario and ROB at the least.

 

[Kofu]

How are you supposed to approach him from the air by "stay[ing] away from his F-tilt range" when his FTilt horizontally outranges almost all aerials? Projectiles?

You seem to be unable to differentiate between "hypothetical perfect gameplay where frame data is everything" and "actual gameplay where stuff that shouldn't work does". Plus you're not giving Bowser nearly enough credit. Like KillerJawz said, he isn't Zelda (and thankfully so ).

 

[KillerJawz]

A2Z I'm really curious now. Which offline, decent Bowser's have you played and defeated or done well against? You post in a lot of these BBR threads, spewing this frame orientated stuff when it's all just.. theorycrafting :/.

Bowser's Klaw is frame 17, have you seen it's disjoint? It has grab armour frames, can be cancelled.... Frame data isn't good enough.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

One of these days A2Z and BPC will make it into the back room.

And I won't even be surprised.

I'm fairly the BBR would die within a week due to mass amounts of members quitting, and then nobody taking the remainder seriously. As in: even less then some people do now.

 

[Zigsta]

The R.O.B. MU's not bad at all for Bowser.

I would LOVE to see A2Z play a REAL Bowser main sometime.

 

[Kofu]

The R.O.B. MU's not bad at all for Bowser.

I'm kinda theory-crafting here (since I don't fight many R.O.B.s) but why isn't it that bad for Bowser? R.O.B. has similarly ranged tilts, two projectiles, and a much superior offstage game.

 

[KingKong_ad]

Bowser against rob is not hard. probably an even match up...

 

[Kofu]

But... why?

I'm not saying it couldn't be even, but I don't understand why.

 

[MrEh]

Oh yeah and then Aerial Klaw, yeah it would be amazing if it was something like a frame 9 move, but it's frame 17, something you can avoid or interrupt on reaction.

I played DEHF. His reactions are amazing. I hit him with an aerial Klaw. Many times.


lololol

I'm kinda theory-crafting here (since I don't fight many R.O.B.s) but why isn't it that bad for Bowser? R.O.B. has similarly ranged tilts, two projectiles, and a much superior offstage game.

Bowser vs ROB is only unbearable if you let ROB camp. Once you get in his face, it's Jab time. It's still in ROB's favor of course.

 

[B!squick]

Bowser vs anyone is only unbearable if you let them camp. Once you get in his/her face, it's Jab time. It's still in everyone else's favor of course.

Fixed for further accuracy.

 

[Teh Future]

bowser is the worst character in the game.

not trolling

 

[Dumbfire]

Bowser vs ROB is only unbearable if you let ROB camp. Once you get in his face, it's Jab time. It's still in ROB's favor of course.

Yeah I played a ROB, I got off 80 percent Bair kills on his Up b but still got *****.

 

[B!squick]

bowser is the worst character in the game.

not trolling

 

[PK-ow!]

I lol'ed.


Ok, I need to make a serious post now.


words


tl;dr

Bowser is bad. He is not bottom tier bad.

Two things.


1. I'm gonna play Bowser now.

2. If "spacing" is where Bowser chokes up the opponent, then the counter to abuse Bowser's flaws is zoning, or footsies (except Smash doesn't have backstep) or something. "Spacing" if I understand is defined as attacking at utmost range. If Bowser moves through utmost spaced attacks vs. dragon punching close hits, then the trick would be to be unseeably random between those two options, creating a mistake.

Bowser's troubles in mobility then do appear relevant and crushing.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Speaking of being good at exploiting low mobility characters, Bowser is a dream come true for Jigglypuff.

You mean its a nightmare for Jigglypuff.

 

[PKNintendo]

If he's so terrible, why was he placed in Low Mid tier?
(It's a not a jab towards you guys, I just want to know)

 

[Zigsta]

If he's so terrible, why was he placed in Low Mid tier?
(It's a not a jab towards you guys, I just want to know)

He's terrible compared to characters like MK, but he's nowhere near as terrible as characters like Ganon, essentially. He'll probably go down a bit, but he shouldn't drop that far.

 

[Flayl]

I think his question is why the hell did they randomly decide he was a mid tier character if all along they thought he was more terrible than he actually is.

 

[Cassius.]

Vex Kasrani?

 

[B!squick]

My money's on MrEh's influence.

 

[MrEh]

My money's on MrEh's influence.

If only I actually had that. XD


Bowser will probably drop to the middle or lower part of low tier. Do I think he's better then that? Yeah, but theorycraft isn't a good argument...and the bottom part of low tier certainly reflects Bowser's tournament results. lol

 

[Cassius.]

Of course he's better than the majority of low tier, but no one's really doing much.

Oh well. As long as we know, we know.

 

[kekie1]

Bowser isen't THAT bad.

You have probably never played a REAL bowser main. if you had, you wouldn't be saying how bad he is. but any ways, the new tear list is messed up. Pit should be WAY higher. his side-b is realy anoying if you go up to the edge with it, somebody w a bad recovery would probably fall. and it reflects projectiles too. he also has a INSANE recovery. not that he needs it, he is already so good, but back to Bowser. Bowser's side-b is good if he has more stock than his opponent. i have trouble w it, but it's like Mr. game and watches areal down-a, it just takes a while to get use to. my friend is a Bowser main, and HE'S INCREDIBLY GOOD!!!! trust me, Bowser's not that bad. the only bad things are his horrible recovery, and he's so slow.

 

[Flayl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPUX1L32hrg