BBR Weekly Character Discussion #25: Ness

[Bartolon]

I disagree, Ness his nair is really helpful in the matchup against wario.
I played against Glutonny last tourney, and I saw that nair working really well when wario's pressuring (and for approaching)
I've also played against a campy wario named 'Chair'

Tell me why it's really bad for ness? Is it because of the grab release to fsmash, if that's all I don't get it honestly lol.

 

[M]

Wario can shut down Ness' jumps quickly.

Ness can have a hard time landing a kill on Wario, or even getting that gab before Wario grabs him.

 

[Bartolon]

Is that all?

 

[M]

All I can think of atm. lol

It's definitely bad though. Best player in my region is a Wario main. Poor me. =(

 

[Bartolon]

Tedeth, the wario with 60-90 airdodges in one match.

I still think the matchup isn't too bad.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Well dang, that was a lot more positive than the last one.

 

[Pierce7d]

We don't need a secret forum to discuss character. We do prefer it for votes though. That's why the character discussions are being released to the public. And so I can go check the threads to see all the useful things people have to say about their character I can learn.

 

[Eagleye893]

^keep PKjump in mind when evaluating ness. I'm gonna start to force the move onto the other ness mains.

Oh... While ness isn't extremely ground-game oriented, don't forget about those moves. All of them can be used well for a number of instances... I just don't like jab.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

^keep PKjump in mind when evaluating ness. I'm gonna start to force the move onto the other ness mains.

Oh... While ness isn't extremely ground-game oriented, don't forget about those moves. All of them can be used well for a number of instances... I just don't like jab.

Doesn't PK Jump still leave you in that terrible landing lag from doing PK Fire in the air? Seems pretty risky...

 

[Eagleye893]

^not really at all. The only risk in it is the fact that you are without your double jump, but even then, if you space it correctly, you will always be able to land safely on the ground.

Basically, the PKfire from the PKjump comes out at just the right time to allow ness to avoid punishment or capitalize on an opponent's messup by using an aerial or airdodge at a certain point on ness' flight. Few if any attacks have enough range to hit us before our airdodge comes out, and we have fairly safe aerial followups, because they can poke through a weakened shield for some (bair, if you fall behind opponent), the forward momentum from the PKjump doesn't last for an unbearable amount of time (fair for retreat), and uair/nair will get some good damage on an opponent who does get trapped in the fire (even if they aren't trapped in the fire, a lot of the time you can just push forward more with ness and still hit with uair or nair), or can get a quick hit to beat out slower punishment attempts our opponents might use.
I say a possible problem is that our opponent can jump OoS and use an aerial on us, but I need to see. a perfectly placed PKfire bolt will probably hit the shield and allow ness to be safe, but I really don't know for sure. I haven't been to tourneys in forever, and I haven't seen anyone else use PKjump almost at all. Even if they do know that, we can bait the OoS response and instead of going for all forward, bring back slightly with a fair at the end of the pkfire.

If I had any means of showing what I mean, I would... I'm just hoping you get what I'm saying.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I dunno. I've seen it in use; it has its place, but it's still too risky, which is why it's not used at all.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I thought the whole point of PK jump was to decrease ground lag time. When you use PK fire so high in the air and use it while jumping, it shifts the lag from PK fire to airtime lag (which isn't so bad) from the ground lag. This makes it harder to punish PK fire out of a PK jump - ie, you PK jump to decrease lag and make it less likely to get yourself punished. That's the entire reason I use it O_O

 

[Eagleye893]

^ditto.

Do you still second ness?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Actually your both kinda wrong,

PK jump allows you to go higher which allows you to air dodge before you hit the ground which like EP said changes it to normal landing lag, however if you don't air-dodge you still suffer the same pkf landing lag. For whatever reason it has a lingering amount of time in which it will lag.

Also most people don't use pkJump because most of us agree the c-stick is more important for aerials, and performing it the other ways are hard.


Personally i don't like it because it gets rid of your second jump, which if telegraphed someone could hit you off stage and you wont have your second jump. At which point Ness is generally screwed

 

[Eagleye893]

I knew that. It's just that I always use some aerial or airdodge out of my fh or pkjumpd pkfire, so I didn't feel the need to say that.

My method doesn't involve the cstick; Change the shoulder button that you use the least to jump, and train yourself to use that only for pkjump.

It can be telegraphed. however, if you use it out of a fh'd aerial, it allows more randomness. Fh, retreating fair is a great way to use it, but you can also do nair or bair fairly successully, although the latter needs you to have skill to use a wavebounced pkjump (super fast fingers to flick in the opposite direction instantly... And trust me, it's not as difficult as it seems).

If you get grabbed or hit before you can airdodge, you can instead alter your usage of pkjump by only using it high up, as in using your fh more than sh. I find fullhop safer than sh, because you will almost never get grabbed after failing in your usage of an aerial and you can follow the aerial you used with basically anything (except dair).

 

[_clinton]

I <3 Ness' PKT, I also <3 it as a recovery move over things like super jump punch and fire fox/bird at least as well. However, I'm a bit crazy when I recover with it so that might be why ^_^.

 

[Eagleye893]

we all know you're crazy...

 

[_clinton]

Well as long as that is clear we are good then ^_^

 

[tedeth]

Tedeth, the wario with 60-90 airdodges in one match.

I... LOVE.... this post.

I'm sigging that **** right now.

 

[_clinton]

Whenever I play as Wario I do things like ride his bike off the stage just for fun, haven't been gimped yet doing it ^_^

 

[Jiffyboob]

BBR needs a Ness main.

 

[_clinton]

I nominate me! I promise I won't **** around there all the time like I do here!

(Or Shaky, and so on. You know, Ness players that actually do contribute to his results ^_^)

 

[Eagleye893]

I agree... But what happened to neonness?

I nominate myself... The only problem is that I'll say too much about... Random techniques that nobody uses.

So you guys had better start learning these random things!!! They help much more on offline, because the reactions are quicker, and my reactions to my opponents mistakes/reactions would be quicker.

I just haven't played offline in forever.

 

[Neon Ness]

I agree... But what happened to neonness?

Me???

I have no notable tourney results, I doubt they'd want me to be a back room member...

More importantly though I lost interest in MU discussions, and I agree with pretty much everything in our competitive ruleset format-- 8 min/3 stock/double elim/most stages are fine to me except maybe Rainbow Cruise. There's no point in me being a BBR member even if I was qualified.

 

[Yink]

BBR needs a Ness main.

I always thought Shaky would be in there, and I thought he was lol. I obviously can't tell grey from purple, seeing as he doesn't have a purple name. >_>;

 

[AvariceX]

I just wanna say I'm really impressed with how this discussion went compared to the last BBR discussion about Ness. Also I gotta agree with DMG, I've felt that Wario is actually our hardest matchup for a while now. I don't really have anything to contribute as my tourney performance has been slipping (not that it was ever very good), but kudos to the BBR for this thread.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't think Ness-Wario is all too terrible. Proper spacing should prevent Wario from nacking Ness' jumps. GR > Fsmash should rarely happen (really, why are you getting grabbed?).

It may be in Wario's favor, but no way it's Ness' worst MU.

 

[Pierce7d]

You really think Wario is harder than Marth?

I mean, I've never personally fought Shaky or Fow, but I've never struggled against any Ness I've fought. Not trying to toot my own horn, I'm obviously just stating that it's a bad MU.

 

[Kinzer]

You really think Wario is harder than Marth?

I mean, I've never personally fought Shaky or Fow, but I've never struggled against any Ness I've fought. Not trying to toot my own horn, I'm obviously just stating that it's a bad MU.

You'd have trouble against FOW.

I heard he's got a mean Meta Knight now.

 

[Shaya]

Fow was too scared to use ness against my marth. I destroyed his Lucas.
Bardull won with Marth when he had never played the match up before in his life.

I sat watching qqing at how bardull could lose this because he had no idea how to destroy nessy poo.
And he kept getting dash grabbed.
God ****it don't get dash grabbed, ughh

 

[Bartolon]

FOW isn't good at the Marth MU at ALL, from what i've seen.
He got grabbed like 5-6 times in 30 seconds I was like "wut".

Imho I really think Marth isn't that hard as most people say, you just have to play really smart.

Ness mains just go to aggressive into the matchup itself and get screwed over. And idk why people keep mentioning FOW while Shaky is above him.. really. Shaky plays alot smarter and knows what to do in specific matchups. (He isn't that good at the Marth MU though)

 

[Lord Chair]

So practically, no one is good at the Marth matchup so no one is actually capable of proving it to be not all that bad?

Come on....

 

[Bartolon]

No one has really proven it yet, I agree. =D

 

[Yink]

You really think Wario is harder than Marth?

I mean, I've never personally fought Shaky or Fow, but I've never struggled against any Ness I've fought. Not trying to toot my own horn, I'm obviously just stating that it's a bad MU.

I agree. Wario's not so bad once you figure it out. Marth (and D3) require a lot of good spacing. You just need to be playing smart.

 

[PKNintendo]

At least it's tons better than the last BBR weekly discussion. Hell you guys almost had it down to a T.

Anyway, I came here to agree with DMG. Ness vs Wario is definetely a bad matchup for Ness, who has a hard time with Wario in general. (Landing that KO, fighting him in the air etc) and that GR Fsmash is killer.

LOL @ Cyphus. We Ness mains already now about the infinite dude. It's no biggie that Ness can't touch DK but that's okay because I can just CP to Wario/DDD and infinite your ***. What's DK going to do lol.

 

[Lord Chair]

Wario can't infinite DK.

DK can pick MK.

 

[Neon Ness]

And idk why people keep mentioning FOW while Shaky is above him.. really. Shaky plays alot smarter and knows what to do in specific matchups. (He isn't that good at the Marth MU though)

Really? I've never seen his matches against a Marth, or Snake for that matter. I want to see how he does, those are tough fights for Ness. I've seen him play against Seibrik's D3 before which was interesting.

I have no idea about Wario lol. Perosnally I always considered Ness' worst matchups the characters that just plain outrange him--like Marth, Snake, D3, DK etc. His projectiles aren't as great as something like Falco's laser in my opinion, so it's like in those fights he has to find a way to get in. Fair can only get you so far, so the problem is how do you get past an arsenal of moves that outrange you only using one attack (fair)?

GR > Fsmash doesn't decide the matchup, but it is kind of dumb for Ness, and it does happen. I think Ness loses the offstage battle. Just a guess though, I've never played this fight the other way around.

 

[_clinton]

From my own preferences I prefer Ness > Lucas when it comes to fighting Marth, G&W, MK, and some other characters. However, that doesn't mean Lucas has no preferences over Ness (D3, and DK for starters).

 

[Eagleye893]

I just say Marth destroys ness... Marth has the GR for sure.... that puts him fairly high above ness....

An even greater issue though, is that nearly everything outranges ness and also fairly quick. PKfire is pointless. PSImag wind sets him up for perfect tippers ( ). PKT can help, but if you use it at the wrong time you will say hello to the pain of GR and tipper stuffs.

I really know little that any ness can do against a defensive Marth. My friend basically went super defensive on me one time and completely destroyed me... I haven't played him in a long time, but that was basically a "I win because you have no great approach against me" game.

Marth is still a very bad MU for ness, even without the GR craziness.
DK is meh. He has grab stuff on us, he has range.... but if we play our cards right, we get a couple of crushing advantages.
Wario... I don't know. I've played maybe one good wario a long time ago IRL... Otherwise, I don't know. Wario is pretty annoying though. If you don't play just right, you are dead.
Snake is meh. Sure he has a great advantage on the ground over nearly everyone, but once he's in the air, only a couple of things that could beat us (nair is snake's great option for range and quick hit on us, but if they fail with it, we get a good opportunity for attack; he can also airdodge to something on the ground... It depends on the situation) We've got a couple of things. Also, staying with snake:
*****If you are awesome like me and can pull off an epic thing, you can PSImag wind snake when he DACUSes to an edge of the stage and he will be blown off! The only bad thing is that if the snake sees it coming, he'll just react correctly and hit you with something. BUT!!! YOU CAN PULL HIM OFF WITH THAT WIND FROM HIS FRONT!!!! (you jump off the stage and he is charging at you with a DACUS, and the snake just falls off the ledge, canceling his DACUS... true facts!) This is slightly better than going behind him, because he can't bair you getting back to the stage and his nair will need to be DJ'd to help him. His fair is laggy enough to allow us to airdodge or DJ airdodge. So if you know what you're doing, all you need is to SDI up or jump back to the stage and you will essentially have a kill if you get to the right spot. If snake DJ's back with an AD to the stage, the whole thing is a failed attempt, but at least you tried to make it work. you just start where you left off, but offstage and in a slightly worse situation.

DDD is easily advantage over us... freaking CGs and range and high KO potential!!!
diddy is meh... we get the DJC nannerz from diddy.
falco is in falco's favor. the CG and falco's speed, but we can force some approaches. the phantasm is beaten by nair and bair.
who else do we have that I'm forgetting who may possibly have an advantage over us?

Ike? I personally hate ike.... could be wrong.

 

[_clinton]

DK's grab release stuff is by far better than Marth's stuff for starters he has a better KO move to hit us with out of it plus a better chain than Marth's that is harder to get away from. He also lives longer than Marth, so the grab kill advantage is in his favor as opposed to being equal like it is with Marth and his Dsmash that he has for sure.

He also kills better in general, out ranges us more than Marth does as well IIRC, and he also has a better recovery than Marth as well IMO.