BBR Weekly Character Discussion #25: Ness

[Eagleye893]

yeah, with all those strengths, one would think that DK is an easy advantage for him... but I still feel it is slight advantage DK.

My computer room is too hot. I'm gonna try to explain later....

 

[Shaya]

You have a down air spike and you think DK's recovery is better than Marths?

I dair spike good DKs recoveries with Marth... often.

Also DK doesn't have versatility in his ground moves and aerial moves to handle ness' jump reliably.

 

[Shaky]

I have no trouble with Warios, I think the matchup is only like 55-45 Wario (I think I have some matches vs Waft-Oli on youtube). As for Marth, it requires a lot of spacing but it's not impossible to do (I recently beat Florida's best Marth). To me, DDD is really hard and ICs is pretty much impossible. Snake is my best matchup, so most of my opinion on this matchup is biased but I think realistically it's about 60-40 Snake (I haven't lost to Snake in a while though) I think the only matchups on the 70-30 range or 65-35 range for Ness are DDD, ICs and possibly Marth.

 

[_clinton]

What DKs have you gimped? Also, what make you think DK doesn't have versatility in his ground game (I'll give the air game what with how DK really only has Bair as his best air move, but at least that is truly an awesome aerial in his case)?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

HEhe...you guys thinking DK grab =/= stock. YOu realize it is one grab to stock...right? It is REALLY REALLY REALLY easy.

 

[Yink]

I have no trouble with Warios, I think the matchup is only like 55-45 Wario (I think I have some matches vs Waft-Oli on youtube). As for Marth, it requires a lot of spacing but it's not impossible to do (I recently beat Florida's best Marth). To me, DDD is really hard and ICs is pretty much impossible. Snake is my best matchup, so most of my opinion on this matchup is biased but I think realistically it's about 60-40 Snake (I haven't lost to Snake in a while though) I think the only matchups on the 70-30 range or 65-35 range for Ness are DDD, ICs and possibly Marth.

I love this post. <3

I really do agree with most of it too, except I think Snake vs Ness is a little lower, because I don't have that much trouble with Snake either. (still, arguing 5 on a ratio seems ridiculous)

But, ICs...really? Guess I need to play them more.

 

[AvariceX]

But, ICs...really? Guess I need to play them more.

Eh I train with swordgard and have played lain and Ambrose (old-school top Canadian IC's) in tourney and I still feel IC's matchup is around 5-5, 45-55 at worst. It's a strange matchup for Ness to adjust to at first, but awkward doesn't necessarily mean hard. Gotta play really defensive against them and keep your movement unpredictable so you don't fall into pivot grabs. PKT is pretty bad in the matchup unless you're really really far away and in good position, as is grounded PKF... retreating zap-jump PKF is very useful though. Honestly there's like 7 characters that 0-death us from a grab and IC's have one of the hardest times landing that grab out of any of those characters.

 

[Neon Ness]

As for Marth, it requires a lot of spacing but it's not impossible to do (I recently beat Florida's best Marth). To me, DDD is really hard and ICs is pretty much impossible.

Yeah, I think I remember you saying that about ICs before. I remember I fought Aglow back in March and got destroyed, one misspaced dair and suddenly I'm getting CG'd. I had trouble separating the ICs with Ness, whereas with Lucas at least Nair is somewhat reliable. Personally I have no clue what to do against them...

Everyone seems to either have forgotten about G&W or maybe no one finds it difficult anymore. ._. FL has like none though except GDX sometimes.

 

[Eagleye893]

To answer all problems, integrate pkjump into your game.

 

[PKNintendo]

So... what do you Nesser's think the DK matchup is?

4-6, 35-65, or 0-100 like Swamp claims?

 

[AvariceX]

It's definitely not 0-100, but it's certainly one of our hardest. 35-65 sounds about right, but I might even go as far as 3-7. The only things we really have going for us in this matchup are spiking his recovery, some PKT juggling, and camping with PKT on really big stages. DK is faster than us in the air and outranges us everywhere, PK Fire is completely unsafe because of DK's tilts, he kills us at crazy low %'s and our only reliable ways of killing him aside from recovery gimping involve huge risk because they all put us in reach of his dsmash/fsmash, and unlike most matchups we don't have ways of setting up a safe opening to go for the kill with something like a PK Fire pillar.

There's that grab thing too...

 

[_clinton]

4-6 DK, if only because of that GR stuff, otherwise I'd say it is close to even (Lucas I'd say he would have the advantage if it wasn't for the GR stuff as well).

 

[lordhelmet]

Wait so does DK have an infiite on Ness or is just a CG -> Dsmash? I don't see how anyone could possibly think that's a 4-6 MU

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

Sounds more like 3-7 at best:

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

I believe Falcon goes even with Ness simply because Ground Release -> (Jab) -> Regrab and Air Release -> Uair/Knee.

 

[AvariceX]

DK has an infinite on us, if he can dsmash afterwords as well that's news to me but I haven't checked the frame data on it...wouldn't be surprised tbh though.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure it's 3-7 DK's favor. This board really hates to admit when matchups are heavily against us it seems though =/.

I've actually thought Falcon has a slight advantage over Ness for a while, but that may be because 100% of my experience against Falcon is against Ally.

 

[Eagleye893]

It's not like dk's chain/infinite breaks the mu...

 

[lordhelmet]

It's not like dk's chain/infinite breaks the mu...

Is it a Cargo infinite or is it a ground release regrab infinite?? Either way he should be able to dsmash out of a ground release because it's less than 10 frames.

I mean if D3 vs DK is 2-8 I can't see Ness doing any better than 3-7 against DK. I'm not sure how an infinite/CG of that magnitude isn't considered "shutting down" Ness.

 

[PSI Nexus]

Ness vs. Falcon even? I'm not so sure, more like 6 : 4 Ness' advantage.

Falcon has low priority while Ness has high priority (for not having a sword). Up and D-Smash cancel out Falcon Kick.

Falcon's recovery is pretty good but extremely predictable, it's like a free PKT1. He can also be PK Fired pretty easily (Fire Spike?)

Falcon also has a really small grab. I'm not sure about the GR stuff except an U-air.

DK... is just bad for Ness (and Lucas). It's worse than 40 but definitely better than 25, even with infinite. But why is it that DK's think it's only 60 : 40 in their advantage?

Ally's just a beast, he does really well against M2K's MK when the MU is supposed to be 20 : 80 for him.

 

[lordhelmet]

Ness vs. Falcon even? I'm not so sure, more like 6 : 4 Ness' advantage.

Falcon has low priority while Ness has high priority (for not having a sword). Up and D-Smash cancel out Falcon Kick.

Falcon's recovery is pretty good but extremely predictable, it's like a free PKT1. He can also be PK Fired pretty easily (Fire Spike?)

Falcon also has a really small grab. I'm not sure about the GR stuff except an U-air.

DK... is just bad for Ness (and Lucas). It's worse than 40 but definitely better than 25, even with infinite. But why is it that DK's think it's only 60 : 40 in their advantage?

Ally's just a beast, he does really well against M2K's MK when the MU is supposed to be 20 : 80 for him.

I don't really want to start another argument on one of these threads so I'll try to keep it short

Um... priority = 2009 thinking, it honestly doesn't apply to MUs unless it's a huge/obvious difference (sword/Snake's ftilt). And who uses Ness' yo-yo? It's trash and Utilt beats it anyway. Falcon's priority isn't even that bad tbh, the only moves we have trouble with is PK Fire and fair, I actually think utilt beats Ness' fair but I'll have to double check that.

PKT1 Falcon's recovery? Works to a degree but doesn't "**** us".

Falcon's ground releases are all legit. I'm not too sure about Knee but Player-3 says it's guaranteed (I'll have to confirm in Frame Advance). Falcon actually has a very easy time getting grabs due to (nearly) guaranteed setups (Jab, FH Nair). That's one of the reaons the Wario MU is so good.

 

[AvariceX]

I just want to throw it out there that Yo-yo isn't trash. Usmash is one of our best oos punishes against long-range attacks like Snake ftilt, and dsmash is one of our highest damaging moves. Edit: After checking the Damage Per Hit thread in tactical, dsmash is in fact our highest damage-per-frame move even without charging it.

DK infinite is cargo infinite.

The grab infinite alone doesn't completely shut-down the matchup because unlike DK, Ness played properly is very difficult to grab... we're like the Wario of mid/low-tier (puff being the bottom tier Wario).

GR -> knee is legit, I've tested this with Ally :X

 

[Eagleye893]

Man... lh... You sure as hell have no clue of what pkt is and what it does...

A smart ness can easily get a pkt tailwhip on you and lead that into hitting with the head. If you are nearing the ledge, we put out pkt in time to do that. Sweetspotting the ledge isn't an option when we have our pkt around it and after you. We get at least one hit assured.

Back to DK: it isn't impossible for ness to get in and attack like it is with marth. Marths attacks are all insanely quick and well ranged. Dk has the range, but has enough lag on each end to give us just enough time for punishing. Bair wall? Get off of wifi! New idea: fh pkfire immediately after the first bair might hit an unsuspecting DK. jump out with retreated fair. It'll be safe unless the dk is too close.

Grounded DK? he's got some stuff, but as I said before it is all fairly laggy. Dtilt? Okay, that move is good. It has nice speed. It can do some stuff to us. If we keep higher, it's fine though. Another reason why I recommend ness mains use FH often: keep out of good tilts and smashes that hit low. Dsmash is quick to start, but it has fairly high ending lag. If you get around it, you win some percent. Perfect shield it, shield and fh pkfire, shielded dashgrab... There are ways to see it coming. Know their hitbox and percents that it kills at. Judge based on actions they are doing currently. It's fairly easy to see where it's going to come out. Fsmash? If you do get hit by it, you deserve to die. There is a ton of range, but you should get enough time to shield or dodge. Ftilt of DK is also ranged, but easy to see and shield and punish. Utilt is quick to start... It's okay. Jab is okay. Grab is quick... Just keep somewhat distanced.

This is like how marth should act against ness, except ness against DK: the mu is helped a lot if the ness plays more defensively. DK doesn't have a ton to safely break through everything ness' defense, but still enough to have an advantage. Also, offstage = ness wins. Air is about tied... Maybe slightly in ness' favor. Ground is in DK's favor. Air v ground of both is fairly even. Edgeguard options of ness are Better than that of DK... other than that one CG/infinite, it's not much in dk's favor. Even with it, you can mash out just right... Ness mains know to avoid grabs and know how to avoid certain grabs. Just having gr stuff on us doesn't mean that the opponent wins outright. Marth has stuff to back up the insane GR stuff. His range and speed and other stuff are mean.

Edit: also, dsmash yoyo is great ranged and good for punishment. It also can get some people who are on the ledge if spaced superbly. The angle almost always causes a stage spike. I've tried it quite a bit. Usmash is good OoS and also can mindgame or fool people with reverse hyphen usmash.

 

[PKNintendo]

What the hell? Have you even played a good Ness LH? Stop theorycrafting and get out there. Go challenge yink, Shaky or Eaglyeye for an accurate representation of Ness.
I won't deny that your a good Falcon. (I lurk a lot)

As for DK... I honestly don't know. I told my bro about the infinite and the matchup got a lot harder. That Downsmash out of grab is annoying. Still, Ness isn't easy to grab and PKF is lethal on DK. Killing DK is hell... he's ridiculously heavy. -_-

I think the matchup is probably 35-65.

 

[Eagleye893]

Me, really? I'm not accurate for the COMMON ness by any means... I spam dtilt, psimag, and am shifting towards well placed pkfire spam. (my fh pkfire allows uair to hit as I go to the ground, so it's nearly unpunishable)

I agree with shaky and yink if you want an accurate representation of the best common ness that you can play on wifi. Offline, barto, shaky, smash64, and lots of others. I say Kenny and MM Are worthy of mentioning, but we have good people scattered.

I forgot chrono for online...

Now if anyone wants epic stuff, change L or R to jump, then FH pkfire so that it comes out instantly as you jump (x/y then b isn't instant... And very difficult to get so). The uair will always come out if you do it.

 

[Bartolon]

lol I think ness has a slight advantage over falcon 55-45.
Falcon is tougher than you think he is.

 

[Eagleye893]

I wasn't saying he was tough... I've fought ally's falcon and that was

A good falcon can give some trouble. I was just saying that while we are well onstage and he is off, we will almost always hit with pkt.

 

[Bartolon]

I wasn't really aiming my answer to you though, just in general

 

[lordhelmet]

Wait so if we get ***** by PKT then does Ness not get gimp ***** by us cancelling it out when you're recovering?

Low tier mains sure are funny. Yes that would include me as well.

 

[Player-3]

hi guys i'm lurking out of boredom and i see you are discussing cf


falcon can kill him at like... 60 from a gr knee

it's like 5-5

for some reason ally thinks falcon wins the matchup but idk about that,

(http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10672377&postcount=1444)

 

[Yink]

I'd say it can go even, but I still am liable (more like biased) to say that Ness vs Falcon is 55:45 because...well besides the grab release stuff it's a pretty straightforward matchup. Also if you get the percentage lead, go camp. Camp all day.

BUT, let's all not start swearing and all that fun stuff in here alright? Be good.

FYI, I'm flattered that people consider my Ness good now (but I play more offline than online haha).

 

[Eagleye893]

I SAID WHEN WE ARE SAFELY ONSTAGE!!!!!!! READ THE WHOLE POST, NOT PART OF THE POST!!!

Some people have selective hearing/reading sometimes, and it angers me sometimes.

 

[lordhelmet]

Eagle did you even read my post?

*facedesk* I'm out

 

[Eagleye893]

Ness isn't easy to gimp!!!! How many times does that need to be said?! A good ness will surely avoid the gimp.

Even then, I said hit by at least one pkt... That isn't *****. It's just assured percent.

 

[lordhelmet]

Ness isn't easy to gimp!!!! How many times does that need to be said?! A good ness will surely avoid the gimp.

I can say the same thing about Falcon... man I really need to stay out of these threads.

 

[_clinton]

Falcon might have more issues with his recovery at a higher level of play than Ness due to how I'm certain Ness has more options to a point, but I'm not 100% sure on that due to how I've never been freak gimped by a ****ing balloon on SV when using Falcon's recovery lol.

 

[Eagleye893]

But under correct circumstances, ness being onstage and falcon offstage vs the flipped, falcon is less advantaged than ness in the edgeguarding situation: ness has pkfire and pkt. Falcon has uair fair and other things.

Offstage, Ness can airdodge easily if they have put themselves to a proper recovering position and get back to stage with little damage done if any (maybe the falcon will be smart enough and get us as we land... Idk). If there is an expected jump out or whatever, we start our pkt as soon as we see a jump offstage coming. We get just enough time to loop around and catch falcon with the tailwhip and pkt2 to the stage. Many other situations allow ness at least two ways to get back to the stage.

Falcon recovering: we have pkt and pkfire. You may say that you can avoid it, but it is less avoidable than an expected gimp seen a mile away. Every ness main should see that an opponent wants to gimp and adjust to allow alternative routes. I always allow myself just enough space to dj onto the stage from where I'm at offstage. But back to falcon. You can approach the stage with uair, maybe nair, maybe other things, but they may end up leaving you at a lower position, allowing us to have more reason to use pkt. It's a logic thing; falcon says "I don't want to be pushed back too far or lower myself too much, so I'll just use less aerials offstage." ness' aerials are all viable and covering some of his weak points. Falcon has uair... Otherwwise, his aerials aren't disjointed to the point where it covers everything from pkt. We can loop around if we see uair and redirect to force an upb into our pkt, if you don't uair again. If you do, you're in trouble of height with respect to recovery.

Anyone can make an argument against something. I don't wanna be trolled again by some blind person who doesn't take the time to examine mentally what is going on before spouting off idiocies. I can refute any argument you pose against ness' recovery if I have the time. Right now I need to sleep. The above statements trying to describe what I'm thinking of are very jumbled and not accurately representing what I'm trying to say, but I don't care to correct them right now. Just learn to accept that falcon isn't a pro offstage. I know ness isn't, but I play to maximize options. Falcon just can't get through a good ness main's pkt going at him from below a ledge offstage. If above, that'd be a different story. I wouldn't even care. I would wait out or see where you are at first and determine where you'll fall to, then play accordingly. If you have your dj, I dont bother. Just aerials like fair and stuff to try and get you further out.

What does falcon have as a great way of gimping ness anyways? He can snipe out the pkt? Well anyone CAN, but few do it every time. That's like saying I trip with every dtilt and can chain trips together. It doesn't happen every time, or consistently at all, that someone can just run out and gimp ness, so stop assuming you can. I never said I was gimping falcon. Only putting percent on him.

I used to second falcon. Don't say or assume I don't know what he can do. I know he isn't easily gimped, but that doesn't mean he won't ever get hit offstage. Ness has preventative measures all around: fair, psimag wavebounced if close to ledge, nair, rising airdodge(ness'doublejump is insane), dair(retreated at first slightly and move forward completely when going above opponent), etc. What makes falcon so equal to ness or even better?

 

[PKNintendo]

I can say the same thing about Falcon... man I really need to stay out of these threads.

At least try to hide your fanboyism and Show some **** respect. If you don't want to discuss the matchup normally, then leave.

Seriously, if your going to leave, then leave.

 

[Player-3]

falcon v ness offstage

falcon jumps at ness while he has his DJ if he's at around edge level, and baits a dj nair/fair from ness to hit falcon away, or he can just do nothing and get flub kneed.

if he does dj fair, if you have decent reaction time you should be able to double jump uair him out of it from below assuming you have good spacing and don't get hit by his fair.....then ness is offstage with no double jump... which means more flub knees!!!!!

if he just does uair/nair/fair w/e without jumping flub knee > dj dair and ness can't really avoid it except with a dj uair (i THINK not sure on the frames) since he can't airdodge or he practically SDs due to positioning and falcons gimping tools lol

i could be wrong and ness can probably do some kind of funky psi magnet stalling or something but that's my thoughts on gimping ness


on the other hand, ness can't really GIMP falcon as much as give him a good amount of % while he's off. since his PKT pulls him towards ness (iirc... been playing alot of melee lately lol so i'm not sure, since in melee it pulls him towards wherever you hit the opponent with it)

 

[Eagleye893]

Ive been saying he can't gimp falcon... Its just assured percent in a majority of situations

Also, assuming that ness will always use an aerial when dj'ing is dumb. If anything, it is best for ness to dj first then react based on opponent's placement. Not the oncoming move, the placement of where falcon is in relation to ness. Basing your movement off of that is infinitely easier; if your opponent wants to do x, they have to be a specific distance away. If they are that specific distance away, ness' y can be used to cover that x. If x can instead be x-1, then ness thinks of a new approach or sticks with y if it gets past/through both x's.

eg: falcon is approaching an offstage ness. Ness has his dj still. Falcon is just out of range of using uair. Ness does?
--options:
Dj above with either rising pkfire or empty.
Wait out, then dj with either airdodge or fair, depending on what falcon does (uair=fair him, otherwise, airdodge behind him)
... Ive got more, but I have somewhere I need to be. Once I get back to this, I'll ellaborate. This argument isn't going to end in favor of your side, so I would stop now if I were you.

 

[Yink]

*Sigh* Alright guys, if you are still so intent on talking about Ness vs Captain Falcon talk about it in the sticky "PKAY FIAH".

It's not necessary here. *lock*