Bandana Dee, the Legend of Dee - Our Star Ally as DeeLC?! (v(- ' ' -)>↑

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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but yes you're right about there being logical Zelda choices if you're not.

I don't understand why Zelda is brought up every time we talk about Sakurai and Kirby but whatever.
I guess they’re often compared because both Kirby and Zelda have been stuck with 3 “characters” for a long time (if you count the Links and Zeldas as each a single character) and both games have a lot of characters that are popular but are one-offs. Main difference is that most of the popular Zelda one-offs get notable representation while most of the Kirby one-offs don’t, so it really isn’t the same situation.
 

Mogisthelioma

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I guess they’re often compared because both Kirby and Zelda have been stuck with 3 “characters” for a long time (if you count the Links and Zeldas as each a single character) and both games have a lot of characters that are popular but are one-offs. Main difference is that most of the popular Zelda one-offs get notable representation while most of the Kirby one-offs don’t, so it really isn’t the same situation.
That's all true, makes sense.

Zelda isn't in a tough spot however, just an annoying one. Six fighters is OK, but three of them are more or less the same as another one. The series is popular enough to warrant a seventh or even eighth fighter but ATM it doesn't seem like the dev team has prioritized that. The series has recurring characters that could be fighters but most Zelda games are represented with a stage or assist trophy. Not that stages and AT's are excellent representation, but it's not like they're being shafted.

Kirby? 90% of all of the Kirby content in Smash (probably more) comes from the earliest days of Kirby and especially Super Star. From a series with a reported 38-40 million sales and counting, places top charts in fighter requests, has (subjectively) loads of creative potential, and many more merits, it makes zero sense that the series is seeing so little representation in Smash, and most of that representation comes from before modern Kirby.

So comparing Zelda to Kirby isn't necessarily comparing apples to oranges, it's more like comparing a ripe apple to a rotten one crawling with maggots.
 

fogbadge

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That's all true, makes sense.

Zelda isn't in a tough spot however, just an annoying one. Six fighters is OK, but three of them are more or less the same as another one. The series is popular enough to warrant a seventh or even eighth fighter but ATM it doesn't seem like the dev team has prioritized that. The series has recurring characters that could be fighters but most Zelda games are represented with a stage or assist trophy. Not that stages and AT's are excellent representation, but it's not like they're being shafted.

Kirby? 90% of all of the Kirby content in Smash (probably more) comes from the earliest days of Kirby and especially Super Star. From a series with a reported 38-40 million sales and counting, places top charts in fighter requests, has (subjectively) loads of creative potential, and many more merits, it makes zero sense that the series is seeing so little representation in Smash, and most of that representation comes from before modern Kirby.

So comparing Zelda to Kirby isn't necessarily comparing apples to oranges, it's more like comparing a ripe apple to a rotten one crawling with maggots.
well how franchises are being treated is somewhat speculative i think both series have been treated somewhat poorly at different extents

frankly they should both have more characters than fire emblem
 

Mogisthelioma

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frankly they should both have more characters than fire emblem
Truer words have never been spoken.

It's annoying because you'll never (ever) see a Fire Emblem apologist say that there are too many FE reps. They refuse to recognize the Incineroar-style promotion of the series, the amount of obligatory fighters we've gotten, and some go to the extent to say that Corrin was highly requested for DLC. If my opinion on the series' representation in Smash wasn't already low enough the pathetic way the fanbase has tried to justify it doesn't help.
 

Mogisthelioma

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So in other words, people who only became fans because of Verg promote it more than the series' devs?
Uh

No

I meant that, considering Incineroar was only added as an obligatory pokemon fighter (Sakurai stated he was chosen to fill the only reserved slot in the game: The one for pokemon, specifically to promote Sun and Moon), it's annoying because seeing him was more like "Oh, well there's our pokemon quota," and less "Wow! A newcomer who was chosen from the ground up!"

Has nothing to do with Verg.
 
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fogbadge

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Uh

No

I meant that, considering Incineroar was only added as an obligatory pokemon fighter (Sakurai stated he was chosen to fill the only reserved slot in the game: The one for pokemon, specifically to promote Sun and Moon), it's annoying because seeing him was more like "Oh, well there's our pokemon quota," and less "Wow! A newcomer who was chosen from the ground up!"

Has nothing to do with Verg.
yeah it does take something away from it if pokemon had a spot reserved for them
 
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yeah it does take something away from it if pokemon had a spot reserved for them
It's like there are some franchises that just HAVE to get new reps like Mario, Pokemon and FE (with the latter 2 having promotional reps shoehorned in), while ones like Zelda and Kirby just get shafted multiple times in a row despite merit and fan demand, which only makes the representation problem worse.

I remember writing a Hyness-level rant about how Kirby keeps getting shafted (with DLC being the 4th time in a row), mentioning how Link and FE: Awakening have as many reps as Kirby.

And the situation only got worse from there, since Sakurai is STILL pandering to Super Star and it's as bad as the recent Genwunner Pandering in Pokemon, IMO. We thought we finally got past the bias at E3 with Masked Dedede and the Galacta Knight Alt, but nope. I think the only way we're EVER getting past this bias is either if HAL steps in and says something directly to Sakurai or if there's a new Smash game that doesn't have Sakurai as director. Otherwise, Bandana Dee will forever be less likely than Shrek and Goku just because Sakurai won't give any Kirby games that aren't Super Star, DL1, Adventure or Air Ride the light of day.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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It's like there are some franchises that just HAVE to get new reps like Mario, Pokemon and FE (with the latter 2 having promotional reps shoehorned in), while ones like Zelda and Kirby just get shafted multiple times in a row despite merit and fan demand, which only makes the representation problem worse.

I remember writing a Hyness-level rant about how Kirby keeps getting shafted (with DLC being the 4th time in a row), mentioning how Link and FE: Awakening have as many reps as Kirby.

And the situation only got worse from there, since Sakurai is STILL pandering to Super Star and it's as bad as the recent Genwunner Pandering in Pokemon, IMO. We thought we finally got past the bias at E3 with Masked Dedede and the Galacta Knight Alt, but nope. I think the only way we're EVER getting past this bias is either if HAL steps in and says something directly to Sakurai or if there's a new Smash game that doesn't have Sakurai as director. Otherwise, Bandana Dee will forever be less likely than Shrek and Goku just because Sakurai won't give any Kirby games that aren't Super Star, DL1, Adventure or Air Ride the light of day.
And what's worse than all of this is when people say "Can't you be satisfied with the main 3 Kirby characters?" It's the most obnoxious and uneducated statement there is because it implies that Kirby is both well represented with what it has (it's not) and that we're all acting like a bunch of entitled babies (we're not).

Kirby isn't well represented and that's almost objectively a fact. The reason some people believe that the series is only composed of a main trio is because the emphasis on Super Star and games prior to it is so heavy that most people who don't know much about Kirby will assume that the three fighters we have are all there is to the series and that by asking for BDee we're asking for a generic enemy just to inflate the roster.

I hope Sakurai is aware of how some people in the Smash fanbase treat Kirby. It can get really ugly sometimes, the way some people have treated Kirby like a punching bag to make their points seem more valid.
 
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Asking for Bandana Dee isn't inflating the roster. But wanting them to force in 8 Kirby characters because fire emblem bad is.
I kind of wish there was a limit to how many reps a series can have in Smash so that other series can get a chance to get their important reps as well. 4 to 6 reps is definitely enough in my opinion because going over 7 is when it's going overboard.
 
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I kind of wish there was a limit to how many reps a series can have in Smash so that other series can get a chance to get their important reps as well. 4 to 6 reps is definitely enough in my opinion because going over 7 is when it's going overboard.
I don't. There are series with more "important reps" than others, including the dreaded Pokemon which doesn't even have all of them playable.
 
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I don't. There are series with more "important reps" than others, including the dreaded Pokemon which doesn't even have all of them playable.
Mario and Pokemon are the two series that deserve to have the most reps no matter how many characters that is. Pokemon will never have all the Pokemon playable because there are over hundreds of them. There are so many Pokemon, that you can make a Smash game with just the whole roster being nothing but Pokemon. Fire Emblem though, doesn't deserve to have as many reps as Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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I don't. There are series with more "important reps" than others, including the dreaded Pokemon which doesn't even have all of them playable.
What's your definition of "important?" For me, the only reps that are "important" are the ones the fans care about or the ones that represent an important time/era in Nintendo's history (subjectively, gaming "icons), or simply the characters that are recognized most by the people Nintendo is trying to target. I could argue that some of the Mario and Pokemon fighters we have are or aren't "important" based on how they apply to my logic. If you feel like some of the Mario and Pokemon fighters are "important," why?

Personally I dislike the idea of Mario and Pokemon having quotas for fighters because it takes away some of the excitement (usually most of the excitement) knowing they were picked as obligatory reps and not primarily for any other reason. And it also sucks to know that in the selection of newcomers one or more of however many newcomer spots there are is going to be taken up to fill a quota for Mario and Pokemon.

But yeah at the end of the day, building off of what RetrogamerMax RetrogamerMax and fogbadge fogbadge said, the stupid amount of obligatory Fire Emblem fighters shoehorned in creates a disgusting level of overrepresentation, and there's no way that series deserves a close amount of fighters to Mario and Pokemon, and it's outrageous that Fire Emblem has more fighters than both Zelda and Kirby.

The unnecessary situation with Fire Emblem (and some of the dumb [IMO] Mario and Pokemon fighters we have) is the result of having spots reserved for fighters. Obligatory reps are just a bad idea IMO, period.
 
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Man, I really don't think reps should be based on number. Like Zelda has perfect representation for the series with the characters now (though Young Link is superfluous but "Everyone is here!" is a thing. I feel like the roster should try to capture the series more with reps and not worry about number. Like we should consider FE bad not because it has a lot of characters but rather because there's more to the series than some lord swinging his sword at people. I would much rather them do that than just add characters from the last 5 years or enforce silly limits on series because they aren't as big as series who don't need more characters.
 
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Personally I dislike the idea of Mario and Pokemon having quotas for fighters because it takes away some of the excitement (usually most of the excitement) knowing they were picked as obligatory reps and not primarily for any other reason.
I don't dislike the idea, I just think the Pokemon quota was filled the wrong way. Mimikyu, Lycanroc, and Alolan Vulpix are all being pushed as bigger mascots for Gen 7, and then there's Eevee. I would definitely pick Pikachu instead if I cared about Let's Go, but Eevee was chosen as the alternative because its family is just so goddamn popular.

If you can't tell from this, I think a character's "important" status has to do with frequent appearances in marketing or otherwise. Kirby marketing pushes the entire Waddle Dee species as the forth main cast member, for example, and Bandana Dee gets bigger appearances in a couple games where Dedede or Meta Knight play more minor roles. If you don't make frequent appearances, being the main character of your series can also make you important (IE: Isaac).
 
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I don't dislike the idea, I just think the Pokemon quota was filled the wrong way. Mimikyu, Lycanroc, and Alolan Vulpix are all being pushed as bigger mascots for Gen 7, and then there's Eevee. I would definitely pick Pikachu instead if I cared about Let's Go, but Eevee was chosen as the alternative because its family is just so goddamn popular.

If you can't tell from this, I think a character's "important" status has to do with frequent appearances in marketing or otherwise. Kirby marketing pushes the entire Waddle Dee species as the forth main cast member, for example, and Bandana Dee gets bigger appearances in a couple games where Dedede or Meta Knight play more minor roles. If you don't make frequent appearances, being the main character of your series can also make you important (IE: Isaac).
Here's how I think it should go involving series representation:

Any reps they refuse to give Sakurai rights to unless he add them (I'll get to that later)
Did a series go unrepresented in newcomers last game? Is it still relevant? If so, add the best rep, preferably a Fan-Favorite or main character (Bandana Dee's both, despite being hated and mistaken for a mook).
Any other franchises that have main, important or highly requested characters left out?

Here's how it actually goes:

Ok. Give the 3 franchises that have gotten a rep every game in the series another one with zero (or maybe even negative) regard for popularity. Waluigi? Geno? NAH. Pirahna Plant. Decidueye? Mimikyu? NAH. Incineroar. No more FE reps? NAH. Corrin. (I can't say Chrom because I think he was a last-minute addition and he actually had people requesting him)
Now add other Nintendo corporate assets (Inkling) and some promotional reps (*cough pokemon*) and then just do whatever I want. What's that? People want another Kirby rep? LOLNOPE!

I get that some companies won't give the rights unless they get new reps, but at least try to listen to fans with those TRULY obligatory reps. Incineroar feels more like a Vergeben and Box Theory representative than he does a Sun and Moon Rep since he wasn't popular like Decidueye, Lucario or Greninja were. And it's not like Greninja where he was chosen before launch. Incineroar was chosen after the launch of Ultra Sun and Moon, so Sakurai knew full well who was and wasn't popular. Similar thing can be said about Simon for Konami, since Bomberman was requested a lot more than Simon.

I know DK and Metroid had a turn-around, but they, as franchises, didn't need it nearly as much as Kirby, since DK is a Mario sub-series (meaning DK and Diddy are known as Mario characters) and Metroid only recently came back with Samus Returns and Prime 4, while Kirby is one of Nintendo's top sellers that gets at least a spinoff 9 out of 10 years, but is treated like it ended with Air Ride.
 
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Squirtle/Mario guy

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I can get why Super Mario and Pokemon gets the qoutas, Super Mario is basically the "face" of Nintendo if u get what i mean and Pokemon to me, either that he's friends with Ken Sugimori or that it's the 2nd highest grossing franchise of Nintendo.
Third highest grossing franchise is the Wii but we got Miis and the Wii Fits
 
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fogbadge

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Man, I really don't think reps should be based on number. Like Zelda has perfect representation for the series with the characters now (though Young Link is superfluous but "Everyone is here!" is a thing. I feel like the roster should try to capture the series more with reps and not worry about number. Like we should consider FE bad not because it has a lot of characters but rather because there's more to the series than some lord swinging his sword at people. I would much rather them do that than just add characters from the last 5 years or enforce silly limits on series because they aren't as big as series who don't need more characters.
well thats the thing isnt some other series have character beyond what someone might call perfect representation and you end thinking well why cant zelda have more

as for numbers of characters nobody can deny that at least it makes sense for mario and pokemon to have a lot of characters being the two most successful video series of all time and yet for some reason fire emblem (in terms of characters at least) is treated like its number three despite zelda, donkey kong, yoshi, metroid, kirby and animal crossing doing better (at least ac it makes sense) though to be fair three of the fe characters are in as roster padding

yet i fear now that the smash is getting an even bigger third party presence smaller nintendo series and under represented ones are going to be the ones to suffer
 

Mogisthelioma

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Man, I really don't think reps should be based on number. Like Zelda has perfect representation for the series with the characters now (though Young Link is superfluous but "Everyone is here!" is a thing. I feel like the roster should try to capture the series more with reps and not worry about number. Like we should consider FE bad not because it has a lot of characters but rather because there's more to the series than some lord swinging his sword at people. I would much rather them do that than just add characters from the last 5 years or enforce silly limits on series because they aren't as big as series who don't need more characters.
I agree totally but I think we can all understand that when a series as small as FE and has a central focus in Japan outnumbers the roster of DK, Kirby, and freaking The Legend of Zelda in fighter count we have a bit of a problem.
 
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Heroes has 14 million downloads and made hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't think it needs a ton of more newcomers, but the whole "it's obscure" thing is highly outdated.

Besides, if they force in several Kirby/Zelda/DK characters just to """""balance""""" the roster then the Wario/Metroid/Star Fox/Animal Crossing/some other Nintendo series fans are gonna be pissed.
 
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fogbadge

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Heroes has 14 million downloads and made hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't think it needs a ton of more newcomers, but the whole "it's obscure" thing is highly outdated.

Besides, if they force in several Kirby/Zelda/DK characters just to """""balance""""" the roster then the Wario/Metroid/Star Fox/Animal Crossing/some other Nintendo series fans are gonna be pissed.
well theyve all done better than fe so itd be fair
 
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Like Zelda has perfect representation for the series
No it doesn't because of :ultganondorf: still being a semi-clone of :ultfalcon:. It looks like Sakurai will never completely declone :ultganondorf:, so we need Classic Pig Ganon so we can have a Zelda villain rep with a original moveset. And while :ultganondorf: is basically Ganon, their personalities, planning, and magic are completely different from one another. If you look back at All Star Mode in the previous games, :ultganondorf: is listed in the late 90s section of the cast which means Smash doesn't count :ultganondorf: as the Classic Pig Ganon from the older Zelda games. Ganon deserves to be in the roster as much or even more than :ultganondorf: because of him appearing in more games and being there since the beginning of the series.

Here's how I think it should go involving series representation:

Any reps they refuse to give Sakurai rights to unless he add them (I'll get to that later)
Did a series go unrepresented in newcomers last game? Is it still relevant? If so, add the best rep, preferably a Fan-Favorite or main character (Bandana Dee's both, despite being hated and mistaken for a mook).
Any other franchises that have main, important or highly requested characters left out?

Here's how it actually goes:

Ok. Give the 3 franchises that have gotten a rep every game in the series another one with zero (or maybe even negative) regard for popularity. Waluigi? Geno? NAH. Pirahna Plant. Decidueye? Mimikyu? NAH. Incineroar. No more FE reps? NAH. Corrin. (I can't say Chrom because I think he was a last-minute addition and he actually had people requesting him)
Now add other Nintendo corporate assets (Inkling) and some promotional reps (*cough pokemon*) and then just do whatever I want. What's that? People want another Kirby rep? LOLNOPE!

I get that some companies won't give the rights unless they get new reps, but at least try to listen to fans with those TRULY obligatory reps. Incineroar feels more like a Vergeben and Box Theory representative than he does a Sun and Moon Rep since he wasn't popular like Decidueye, Lucario or Greninja were. And it's not like Greninja where he was chosen before launch. Incineroar was chosen after the launch of Ultra Sun and Moon, so Sakurai knew full well who was and wasn't popular. Similar thing can be said about Simon for Konami, since Bomberman was requested a lot more than Simon.

I know DK and Metroid had a turn-around, but they, as franchises, didn't need it nearly as much as Kirby, since DK is a Mario sub-series (meaning DK and Diddy are known as Mario characters) and Metroid only recently came back with Samus Returns and Prime 4, while Kirby is one of Nintendo's top sellers that gets at least a spinoff 9 out of 10 years, but is treated like it ended with Air Ride.
From a relevant sells point perspective wise you're right. But :ultridley: and :ultkrool: definitely deserves to be in the roster mainly because of them being the two most iconic Nintendo villains after :ultbowser:and :ultganondorf:. :ultkrool: especially needed it because he was on his way on becoming the next Wart or Tatanga which, is a fate :ultkrool: doesn't deserve.
 
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Wow a lot of hate for Fire Emblem today, I guess as the resident FE fan I better step in.

First off, I know that it can be frustrating when you don't feel your series isn't getting what it "deserves" when it comes to Smash but the one thing I have always appreciated is how the BWD fans have generally been a very positive group that didn't get mixed up in the drama or need to put down other fan groups and I would hate to see us drop to the level of some of the other fan groups. We're all Smash fans at our core and we need to make sure we don't forget that.

Now on to Fire Emblem. While I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Fire Emblem is "as big" as Mario/Kirby/Zelda/etc. but one thing I will say is that it has been doing very well in recent years so its hardly an obscure series any more. But instead of talking about the series I want to talk about the nature of each Fire Emblem rep and "why" they got in so its easier to understand how we got so many fighters. I would also like to take a second to point out that we only have 4 "unique" fighters, with the other 3 being semi-clones or echos.

Fire Emblem got its first fighter in Melee with Marth. A relevantly unknown series at the time having only been released in Japan Marth's inclusion was odd but not out of form as Ness had already been added previously as a Japanese only character (Earthbound came to NA earlier than I realized). Along with Marth came Roy, who got in during the push to increase the roster by adding clones and was used to promote his upcoming game. While this was the first time they had tried this with a Smash fighter the Smash fans ended up liking Roy and his popularity took off despite his own game's lackluster sales.

In Brawl we got Ike and lost Roy. Ike's inclusion made sense because the Fire Emblem series had finally made its way to the west and his game was the most recent one at the time. Despite this Ike was already becoming one of the most popular Lords of the series and Smash only helped to solidify this, making him leaps and bounds the most popular character in Fire Emblem.

Smash 4 is where many people start to point to the FE series as being over represented, but lets take it from the beginning. On top of both Marth and Ike from previous games we gain the addition of Robin and Lucina on the base roster. Awakening at this point is selling like hotcakes and is being attributed as "saving the series" so its not a huge reach that there would be a character from here and Robin brings a fresh take with a magic based moveset that no other main character from the series can offer. Lucina tags along as a clone, who was originally just going to be a costume swap however when Sakurai realized he could change the tipper mechanic he decided to just add her as a clone. At Smash 4 release we are at 3 unique fighters and one clone.

Smash 4 DLC is announced and one of the first characters is fan favorite returning vet Roy. Roy is more of a semi-clone now but remains faithful to his Melee identity as a Marth inspired. At this point Roy's game had long past and was often considered a low point in the FE series so the only reason he got back in was because of the Smash community's desire to see him return, not for promotion. After him we get Corrin. While Corrin was indead added to promote the Fates games, Sakurai acknowledges that he at first turned them down. He only decided to change his mind when he saw the potential for a unique moveset due to Corrin's partial transformations. So while Corrin did get in to promote a game it was ultimately Sakurai's choice to add what he felt would be a unique fighter.

Finally we get to Ultimate. At this point the only addition to the roster is Chrom as an echo. Awakening is many years past at this point so he is not being added as a promotional character, instead it's suggested that he was added because of how well he did on the ballot and how easy he'd be to add due to him already having a model for Robin's FS.

Fire Emblem does have several fighters but at no point were they ever "reserved a slot for promotion" like people suggest. Instead what we have is just a unique set of circumstances that has led to a large amount of echos and semi-clones, in part due to the nature of the main lords all being "blue haired sword lords" that people love to hate about the series.

Anyway sorry for the long rant in an unrelated thread, I can take it down if the mods decide its off topic.
 
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Wow a lot of hate for Fire Emblem today, I guess as the resident FE fan I better step in.

First off, I know that it can be frustrating when you don't feel your series isn't getting what it "deserves" when it comes to Smash but the one thing I have always appreciated is how the BWD fans have generally been a very positive group that didn't get mixed up in the drama or need to put down other fan groups and I would hate to see us drop to the level of some of the other fan groups. We're all Smash fans at our core and we need to make sure we don't forget that.

Now on to Fire Emblem. While I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Fire Emblem is "as big" as Mario/Kirby/Zelda/etc. but one thing I will say is that it has been doing very well in recent years so its hardly an obscure series any more. But instead of talking about the series I want to talk about the nature of each Fire Emblem rep and "why" they got in so its easier to understand how we got so many fighters. I would also like to take a second to point out that we only have 4 "unique" fighters, with the other 3 being semi-clones or echos.

Fire Emblem got its first fighter in Melee with Marth. A relevantly unknown series at the time having only been released in Japan Marth's inclusion was odd but not out of form as Ness had already been added previously as a Japanese only character. Along with Marth came Roy, who got in during the push to increase the roster by adding clones and was used to promote his upcoming game. While this was the first time they had tried this with a Smash fighter the Smash fans ended up liking Roy and his popularity took off despite his own game's lackluster sales.

In Brawl we got Ike and lost Roy. Ike's inclusion made sense because the Fire Emblem series had finally made its way to the west and his game was the most recent one at the time. Despite this Ike was already becoming one of the most popular Lords of the series and Smash only helped to solidify this, making him leaps and bounds the most popular character in Fire Emblem.

Smash 4 is where many people start to point to the FE series as being over represented, but lets take it from the beginning. On top of both Marth and Ike from previous games we gain the addition of Robin and Lucina on the base roster. Awakening at this point is selling like hotcakes and is being attributed as "saving the series" so its not a huge reach that there would be a character from here and Robin brings a fresh take with a magic based moveset that no other main character from the series can offer. Lucina tags along as a clone, who was originally just going to be a costume swap however when Sakurai realized he could change the tipper mechanic he decided to just add her as a clone. At Smash 4 release we are at 3 unique fighters and one clone.

Smash 4 DLC is announced and one of the first characters is fan favorite returning vet Roy. Roy is more of a semi-clone now but remains faithful to his Melee identity as a Marth inspired. At this point Roy's game had long past and was often considered a low point in the FE series so the only reason he got back in was because of the Smash community's desire to see him return, not for promotion. After him we get Corrin. While Corrin was indead added to promote the Fates games, Sakurai acknowledges that he at first turned them down. He only decided to change his mind when he saw the potential for a unique moveset due to Corrin's partial transformations. So while Corrin did get in to promote a game it was ultimately Sakurai's choice to add what he felt would be a unique fighter.

Finally we get to Ultimate. At this point the only addition to the roster is Chrom as an echo. Awakening is many years past at this point so he is not being added as a promotional character, instead it's suggested that he was added because of how well he did on the ballot and how easy he'd be to add due to him already having a model for Robin's FS.

Fire Emblem does have several fighters but at no point were they ever "reserved a slot for promotion" like people suggest. Instead what we have is just a unique set of circumstances that has led to a large amount of echos and semi-clones, in part due to the nature of the main lords all being "blue haired sword lords" that people love to hate about the series.

Anyway sorry for the long rant in an unrelated thread, I can take it down if the mods decide its off topic.
:ultness: wasn't a Japan only character during Smash 64, because Earthbound/Mother 2 was released in the USA in 1995.
 
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No it doesn't because of :ultganondorf: still being a semi-clone of :ultfalcon:. It looks like Sakurai will never completely declone :ultganondorf:, so we need Classic Pig Ganon so we can have a Zelda villain rep with a original moveset. And while :ultganondorf: is basically Ganon, their personalities, planning, and magic are completely different from one another. If you look back at All Star Mode in the previous games, :ultganondorf: is listed in the late 90s section of the cast which means Smash doesn't count :ultganondorf: as the Classic Pig Ganon from the older Zelda games. Ganon deserves to be in the roster as much or even more than :ultganondorf: because of him appearing in more games and being there since the beginning of the series.
I meant purely on terms of who was chosen to be here. Ganondorf still being based on Falcon is gross. Also in the Melee poll all votes for Ganon and Ganondorf were treated as the same character so I'm pretty sure the listing him as a 90's character is just in reference to when the Ganondorf side first debuted. Unless they don't count Shiek as a 90's character then when Ganondorf appeared isn't evidence they aren't the same in Smash.
 

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Man. It's feels really weird being both a Bandana Waddle Dee supporter and a FE fan in this thread.

-Marth and Ike were pretty much guaranteed to come back regardless.
-Roy was originally added back in Melee to promote FE. He was a highly requested vet to come back in Smash 4.
-Robin was added in Smash 4 because he was unique from the other FE characters enough to warrant a slot (unlike Chrom).
-Lucina, like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, was a clone/echo. She was added to increase the Smash 4 roster. She's also incredibly popular, even prior to Smash.
*Her removal wouldn't have resulted in any other series getting another rep, including Kirby.
-Corrin was added because the dev team though they could make a unique fighter out of them, which they did. (Promotion could've also been a factor, but it wasn't the only reason)
-Chrom was added because he was an easy echo (which ironically was the reason why he didn't get into 4) and he was a popular request.

"Everyone is Here" means everyone comes back, which is the main reason why we have 7 FE reps.

Look, I'm just as upset as you are that BWD isn't in this game right now.

But don't take it out on FE, because every FE rep in Ultimate either has uniqueness or popularity that warrants their spot on the roster.

And please... don't even try to bring up the "every character uses a sword" argument.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really getting tired of the FE hate just because of the number of reps they have.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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Heroes has 14 million downloads and made hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't think it needs a ton of more newcomers, but the whole "it's obscure" thing is highly outdated.

Besides, if they force in several Kirby/Zelda/DK characters just to """""balance""""" the roster then the Wario/Metroid/Star Fox/Animal Crossing/some other Nintendo series fans are gonna be pissed.
Downloads.

Free downloads.

Unless you're arguing something else, it's not like other free games don't sell that well. I'm not saying the series is small at all. I'm saying it's small in comparison. Unless I'm mistaken (and I hope I am), no Fire Emblem game with a price tag has sold more than 2 million units, with Fates selling the most at 1.9 million.

No one here is asking them to force fighters in the game at all. There are people who genuinely want more fighters from those series, enough to outnumber FE. No one here wants fighters from a series just to inflate the roster or shove anything own anyone's throats.

No one here is taking it out on FE, we're just using it as the best example. There are plenty of other examples that demonstrate our problems, the thing is, FE is the biggest offender.

Also who is arguing that there are "reserved spots" for FE? Only pokemon gets those.
 
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Also who is arguing that there are "reserved spots" for FE? Only pokemon gets those.
I mean...you lol
The unnecessary situation with Fire Emblem (and some of the dumb [IMO] Mario and Pokemon fighters we have) is the result of having spots reserved for fighters. Obligatory reps are just a bad idea IMO, period.

EDIT: I guess I'll go ahead and reply to the rest of the post.

Downloads.

Free downloads.

Unless you're arguing something else, it's not like other free games don't sell that well. I'm not saying the series is small at all. I'm saying it's small in comparison. Unless I'm mistaken (and I hope I am), no Fire Emblem game with a price tag has sold more than 2 million units, with Fates selling the most at 1.9 million.
Yes FEH is free but its been one of the top grossing mobile games and is topping charts for downloads, to ignore it as just a free game is a little dismissive.

No one here is asking them to force fighters in the game at all. There are people who genuinely want more fighters from those series, enough to outnumber FE. No one here wants fighters from a series just to inflate the roster or shove anything own anyone's throats.
This is the issue, why does it have to be a contest? I get if you're saying that you want more Kirby/Zelda/etc. fighters but when you qualify it with "enough to outnumber FE" like you won't be satisfied with the roster until these series have more fighters then FE it sounds like you're more worried about quantity or some perceived slight against these other series than the actual roster.There is no denying that one fighter getting in means others can't and you could argue that someone like BWD should be in over Roy but that isn't what you're saying.
 
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-Corrin was added because the dev team though they could make a unique fighter out of them, which they did. (Promotion could've also been a factor, but it wasn't the only reason)
I agree with most of what you say but I just want to point out that Corrin was mainly added due to promotion no "could've" about it. Originally we weren't going to have any Nintendo Newcomers as DLC but a higher up asked Sakurai to add a character from an upcoming game for advertising purposes. So yes not the only reason but it is the main reason.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Reserved as in for Pokemon. Obligatory as in for Mario and FE. There's no official reservation for Mario and FE (I think), but it's clear that the devs cant's go one game without a newcomer from those series (Unless you count Mario in Brawl, but some people consider Wario a Mario character......It's confusing. I try not to think about it).
 
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I agree with most of what you say but I just want to point out that Corrin was mainly added due to promotion no "could've" about it. Originally we weren't going to have any Nintendo Newcomers as DLC but a higher up asked Sakurai to add a character from an upcoming game for advertising purposes. So yes not the only reason but it is the main reason.
Yes but he initially said no, and only came around later when he decided they had a cool moveset. So it's not entirely a promotional thing.
 

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Yes but he initially said no, and only came around later when he decided they had a cool moveset. So it's not entirely a promotional thing.
Yes but then right after (unless I'm taking him seriously out of context) Sakurai stated he felt like there were too many FE fighters.

And for the record Corrin was decided before Fates was even released so it's not like anyone wanted Corrin in the game.

To take this away from FE.........

I've been thinking about the possibility of HAL making a spinoff Kirby game starring Bandana Dee. Kind of like capain toad, but it's more like BDee's origin story and how he came to get his bandana and spear (and maybe his real name?). A platformer or even a story-based RPG. What do you guys think?
 
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PsySmasher

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Downloads.

Free downloads.

Unless you're arguing something else, it's not like other free games don't sell that well. I'm not saying the series is small at all. I'm saying it's small in comparison. Unless I'm mistaken (and I hope I am), no Fire Emblem game with a price tag has sold more than 2 million units, with Fates selling the most at 1.9 million.
You're kind of missing that this free download FE game has generated over $400 million in sales (and that's as of August 1st, 2018).

It's only been beaten by Pokemon Go, in terms of Nintendo IPs on mobile (and we all know how big that game was).

Considering that you don't have to buy anything in that game to get a full experience, the amount of sales it has is something you can't really ignore.
(I've been playing the game for over 6 months and haven't spent a penny on the game.)

FE has seriously grown as a franchise ever since Awakening, even without taking Smash into account.

And now people have get used to the fact that's it's becoming one of Nintendo's major franchises.

But this is starting to go for too long, so I won't make any FE posts unless someone brings it up again.
 
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I've been thinking about the possibility of HAL making a spinoff Kirby game starring Bandana Dee. Kind of like capain toad, but it's more like BDee's origin story and how he came to get his bandana and spear (and maybe his real name?). A platformer or even a story-based RPG. What do you guys think?
I love spin-off games lol I know we joked earlier but a Kirby Warriors would be great and an RPG would be tons of fun too.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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You're kind of missing that this free download FE game has generated over $400 million in sales (and that's as of August 1st, 2018).

It's only been beaten by Pokemon Go, in terms of Nintendo IPs on mobile (and we all know how big that game was).

Considering that you don't have to buy anything in that game to get a full experience, the amount of sales it has is something you can't really ignore.
(I've been playing the game for over 6 months and haven't spent a penny on the game.)

FE has seriously grown as a franchise ever since Awakening, even without taking Smash into account.

And now people have get used to the fact that's it's becoming one of Nintendo's major franchises.
I'm not denying FE is big. It's huge. I'm saying it makes no sense that it outnumbers so many just as popular (if not, more popular) series.
 
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I'm not denying FE is big. It's huge. I'm saying it makes no sense that it outnumbers so many just as popular (if not, more popular) series.
Okay one last one then I'll drop it, I think the thing with Fire Emblem and even Animal Crossing to an extent is that they are selling better and better as they go making them rising stars and much more valuable from a business standpoint, the whole "strike while the iron is hot" deal.
 
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