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Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

FinalDoomGuy

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If that doesn't work, you can go through the SD card route, which is going into the memory menu and choosing the SD card, a pop-up will come and say download bot.del or something to that effect. Press yes. It'll then boot up Riivoulution. Go to install, so there is a shortcut for it in the menu, and then press launch.
 

King Luigi 128

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If that doesn't work, you can go through the SD card route, which is going into the memory menu and choosing the SD card, a pop-up will come and say download bot.del or something to that effect. Press yes. It'll then boot up Riivoulution. Go to install, so there is a shortcut for it in the menu, and then press launch.
That's only true for the PAL version of B-Brawl.
The NTSC version is setup to use a different method.
 

Thinkaman

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Just got back from MLG, will answer all questions when I wake up!
 

Mit

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I saw that AA didn't place too bad in the brackets. I didn't see you Think D: I wasn't looking for either of you though, I just happened to notice AA's name (was looking for all the MI players, who didn't do so hot :\ ).

Big tourneys like these make me hate vBrawl even more. Even if MK didn't exist vBrawl would be a much more fun game, with a lot more character variety (especially since it's actually possible to counter Snake with some characters). It's just stupid -.- I wish they would make another Smash game before the end of the Wii's life.

FinalDoomGuy, I'm guessing you're asking about PAL, and as has been said many times before, there's no way of doing it right now. So it won't happen until someone makes the codes for it.


Any word on those planned BBrawl tournaments D:
 

Smoom77

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How do I use my own CSS? When I put it in, it only lets me select characters that are on the top of the screen (where the characters are in vBrawl's CSS). Do I need to take out a certain file? I've tried taking out all of the files in pfmenu2 but no luck.

Edit: 999 post! :D
 

A2ZOMG

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The main thing that would happen if MK was removed from Brawl (with no other changes) is that the other top 6 characters (Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth, Pikachu, Ice Climbers) would take MK's place as the overall top tier and would see fairly equal representation. And then everyone else would still pretty much not be viable as a standalone main, and wouldn't be affected too drastically by MK's removal, since MK is rarely outright the worst matchup for most characters who aren't particularly good. Generally speaking I feel the most imbalance in Brawl comes from the top 7 compared to everyone else.

I haven't really touched BBrawl 2, and there's an extremely low chance of me doing so this summer since I have a bunch of random things I want to do. Doesn't mean I don't still support the project.

If someone could do more in-depth research to G&W's Jab cancel, I would appreciate it. What I do know at the moment is that he has no guaranteed links off of Jab cancel in this game except...Jab1 -> Jab1 on I think DDD and Jigglypuff, which I believe has very strict timing. However what is more important to me is I want to know how many characters are able to interrupt G&W's Jab cancel -> Grab/D-tilt with their own Jabs or w/e quick move they have (don't tell me the obvious Marth's Up-B).
 

Thinkaman

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The main thing that would happen if MK was removed from Brawl (with no other changes) is that the other top 6 characters (Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth, Pikachu, Ice Climbers) would take MK's place as the overall top tier and would see fairly equal representation. And then everyone else would still pretty much not be viable as a standalone main, and wouldn't be affected too drastically by MK's removal, since MK is rarely outright the worst matchup for most characters who aren't particularly good. Generally speaking I feel the most imbalance in Brawl comes from the top 7 compared to everyone else.
Statistically, it's top 10. I've done the numbers.
 

ぱみゅ

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But there's also the underrated characters. DK's case is lame because of DeDeDe... and GW seems to be losing popularity as people learn to deal against aggros....
 

Smoom77

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How do I use my own CSS? When I put it in, it only lets me select characters that are on the top of the screen (where the characters are in vBrawl's CSS). Do I need to take out a certain file? I've tried taking out all of the files in pfmenu2 but no luck.

Edit: 999 post! :D
Impacientness ftl.
 

SmashBrother2008

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So, what was the point in giving Jigglypuff the ability to generate items?
To make up for its extreme lack of range. Personally, changes like this are close to 'crossing the line' in terms of keeping Brawl the way it is. BBrawl is the best thing to happen to Smash Bros. anyway!
 

MorpheusVGX

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I really love Balanced Brawl but I am having a hard time convincing people to play it. There are some players that doesn't want a change. They won't even read about it. By the way, I think Balanced Brawl needs a forum. Will it ever have one?
 

UTDZac

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Balanced Brawl Tournament Videos - Phase 9
My Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/shadowgripper (subscribe)
Phase 9 Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276987

Bwett vs Chuky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdivzbKhB_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbpfOtB8NI

Infinity vs Denti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubR-CyZw38s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKTTQgZsFvQ

Infinity vs Bwett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6mW2g6O2wU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RItKwcQGwo0

Bwett vs Tyson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjeEx_bAFoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-Tlg_sjZtY

Denti vs Awestin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzna2n7aNyU

Denti vs Tyson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jga0f0Tv9I

UTDZac vs Infinity WF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vZUQRRXrFc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7rQklkHEyk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEo6X4-ad1U

Denti vs Infinity LF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkR4eZROkD8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FwGIYfeDK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgtpUiUyj40

UTDZac vs Infinity GF Set 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5yo6Q2V0xY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw04SVEMl6k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDvKxr2w58M

UTDZac vs Infinity GF Set 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlHs3qfMdj8

Some [really] quick feedback:

MK is too nerfed. The changes on tornado are perfect. The change to shuttle loop (aerial and grounded) is perfectly fine. Nerfing dsmash that much really hurts, a lot. MK has very very few kill moves now (never had many to begin with). You'll see it in the vids; it just doesn't feel right. Infinity was having way too hard of a time killing me even at 150% while I could easily kill him at 70%
 

A2ZOMG

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Zac, was he aware of the Down-B buff? It's not the easiest move to land definitely, but it does kill at respectable percents now (kills Mario at 125% diagonal-vertically on FD)
 

UTDZac

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I'm fairly certain he was. I printed out the cheat sheets Thinkaman gave me and had one at each TV. He, like everyone else, read through them each time he played somebody new.

Imo, I still don't think DownB is a viable option for killing.
 

A2ZOMG

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If you know someone is going to airdodge though, I am CERTAIN that you can trap them with Down-B. ESPECIALLY since you can now vary the timing of the attack through the C stick exploit change.

Obviously it's not spammable by any means, I just am suggesting that it can be landed legitimately.
 

IYM!

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I really love Balanced Brawl but I am having a hard time convincing people to play it. There are some players that doesn't want a change. They won't even read about it.

that is because the top tier user dont want to lose against a new low tier characters

i love the new link in special his powerfull arrows, spin attack and his new recovery

MK, snake, diddy kong, falco, wario an all characters with unfair move
(now thei dont have itv:flame: MUUHAAHAAA (evil laught) :flame:)
will have to prove if their are really deserve to be top tiers, and fight like man XD
 

A2ZOMG

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Honestly I like the new Metaknight so much in this game just because it actually feels like he's properly designed.

Solid as **** with speed and priority and safe edgeguard options and recovery. The phrase "has to work for the kill" actually applies to him in BBrawl, in that either he's saving one of his safer moves for the kill, or he comes up with brilliant tricks that let him land his Down-B or F-smash when he needs to kill at a reasonable percent.

Killing with Down-B is just epic and feels right.

Now honestly, Falco users and Wario users should be the ones that need to get hyped about this game. No more grab shenanigans on them. And for Falco, his throw game in my opinion is better. In that it actually helps his problem matchups by increasing his ability to score a KO consistently. The chaingrab removal honestly shouldn't make a huge difference in his top tier matchups.
 

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Problem with his Dsmash is that it is TOO fast and in both startup and cooldown.
BBrawl's feels just right.

Now, MK seems to rely a lot on gimps, and GW is almost impossible to gimp. That makes it a hard matchup, tho...
 

Steeler

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i'd be okay with it being a little stronger, but still weaker than vbrawl.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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So, curious question on this MK factor. If you were to guess about where in the cast Bbrawl Meta Knight falls, what would you guess? I think everyone we asked still put MK in the top half, with the camps being evenly divided between "still top tier" and "a strong member of the 2nd tier". If your experiences are different, that would be interesting.

Hearing a little more about how things went would be interesting too of course. It does seem like everyone in those videos was playing it pretty safe, but maybe there's more than meets the eye on that.
 

A2ZOMG

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Metaknight clearly is disadvantaged to Olimar in BBrawl. That is probably his worst overall matchup in this game, salvageable through counterpicking, but overall still unfavorable since Olimar does better on neutrals.

As if it wasn't clear enough, Falco beats Metaknight on stages like FD. In fact it's pretty hard for me to say that Falco loses on any neutrals against Metaknight. Because he probably wins the matchup overall.

Wolf doesn't lose to Metaknight in this game, and probably does in fact beat him. He can get in pretty easily on Metaknight, is VERY good at shutting down any aerial approach Metaknight attempts, and kills Metaknight very very early, while his improved recovery guarantees he lives long against Metaknight.

Snake probably beats Metaknight, and is probably Metaknight's most "annoying" matchup for the simple fact that Snake refuses to die.

The above matchups imo are the "clearly uphill" matchups for Metaknight imo. It's unlikely other characters besides those ones have the advantage against him.

I don't think G&W beats Metaknight. In that theoretically, Metaknight still has a better spacing game and more consistent punish options. Oh yeah and Metaknight can in fact edgeguard G&W, and that hasn't changed in the matchup, although G&W in exchange is one of few characters who is able to safely edgeguard Metaknight. What will really help G&W in this matchup however is the increased frame advantage of his Jab, which should make Jab canceling much more reliable and harder to interrupt. I demand more research on that move just to check what options there are for other characters to interrupt G&W's Jab cancel grab. The frame advantage from my experimentation does not exceed +5 as I recall, which is the exact frame advantage necessary to crouch and link back into Jab1.

I think for the most part everyone has a fair chance at winning under a skilled player who knows all the matchups. At a glance, I would say the weaker characters in this game are Bowser, Lucas, Kirby, Sonic, and Ganon.

Bowser's awful recovery is still going to give him a lot of problems and make him a more fragile character than his design begs for. Like Metaknight for example doesn't really need to gimp Bowser. He can just opt to punish a forced on-stage landing with his buffed Down-B.

Lucas still needs a lot of shenanigans to consistently score a kill, since as rPSI keeps telling me, he has some of the worst options in the game for pressuring people who just roll away from him (buffed PK Fire...I guess helps slightly there). The rest of his game is decent enough, although he probably could use more grab reward since none of his throws really do anything extremely remarkable, minus some kills at moderately high percents with D-throw and some okay chip damage from pummels. And his grab is terrible. Starts up slow, and is only active for 1 frame.

Kirby reeeealy doesn't have much on G&W, Marth, and Metaknight who have a lot of options for destroying his recovery for free and outzoning him and his buffs....are mostly pretty situational gimmicks reserved for punishing mistakes. In those matchups, his saving grace is his pokes, which are something that did not get buffed.

Sonic like Lucas requires a lot of shenanigans to score a KO in most matchups.

Ganon well...he's still going to have a lot of problems since he is still very bad at getting grabs and technically doesn't have any safe ground pokes, and he STILL gets screwed by intelligent spotdodges. Fundamentally his entire gameplan is a guessing game that is statistically not in his favor. He does have the best overall grab reward in the game though in terms of raw damage, and that F-air buff is pretty awesomely versatile in all situations where Ganon has his opponent in a disadvantaged position.

I personally think that one of Ganon's worst matchups in this game is actually Mario. Mario has a pretty easy time shutting down Ganon with projectile camping or rushdown especially since Ganon's grab range doesn't pose a threat, and Mario's D-smash pretty much is virtually unpunishable in most situations, and it really isn't simple to just wizkick Mario for doing fullhop fireballs. Mario's Jab game is devastating to Ganon up close especially since Ganon's 7 frame shieldgrab isn't fast enough to grab between hits of Mario's Jab combo. Mario has a lot of options for easily killing Ganon in this game as well, ranging from strong Smashes to easy gimps from N-air/Cape/FLUDD/edgehogging and B-throw at high percents. And on top of that Mario combos Ganon at low percents extremely well. In short, Mario can do pretty much everything gay to Ganon.

Lastly the only thing I think Link needs in order to be a top contender is better grab reward, since probably his biggest problem aside from that recovery is still being pretty limited in terms of setup options. His Jab cancel is okay but kinda slow, and everything else is a lot more situational and bordering on shenanigans. Link as of now however pretty much has by far the worst grab reward in the game. Ike used to have the worst grab reward until that N-air came along (which probably should be toned down while in exchange improving the speed and autocancel window of his B-air slightly).
 

Ulevo

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MK still has two kill moves, glide attack and fsmash.
Forward smash is safe to use, hard to set up. Glide attack is easy to set up, unsafe to use. Many attacks clank with or go through glide attack, or can even be used to punish Meta Knight after a shield drop from a well spaced glide attack.

From what I could tell (this is just upon glance), his Nair seems fine.
 

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@A2:
MK vs Olimar is terrible, since MK gets punished out of pretty everything, while he just doesn't have the same ability to get Olimar offstage (theorically, MK vs Boozer should be pretty the same).

MK vs Falco is just annoying, since MK should be trying approach through lazers, and Falco just run away in order he doesnt get combo'ed to death. MK also must be careful:Dthrow>Usmash being a lightweight sounds awful.

MK vs Wolf is hard to tell... I think Wolf may needs a slight tonedown.....

MK vs GW was a spacing battle, since none of them could be gimped reliably. I don't think MK's new non-ridiculous Dsmash is MU breaking, but maybe a slight BKB increase could make up for him.

Overall, most vMetaknight's MUs are 60-40 or even, and just because some guys like to feel they're over their opponents (there are aruments like "don't play aggressive against Wario and you'll most likely win. That's 55:45", follwed with "I think Lucario is 60:40, because Wario says 55:45 and I've seen Wario does a lot better than Lucario", and most of his MUs still wasn't debated).
 

EraOfGames

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To make up for its extreme lack of range. Personally, changes like this are close to 'crossing the line' in terms of keeping Brawl the way it is. BBrawl is the best thing to happen to Smash Bros. anyway!
Thank you for answering. I kinda wish she had another buff to a move she already has though, like (dare I say) Sing. Changes her playstyle a bit this way.

Also I dunno if this is just me or if it even needs to be fixed etc, but I found a glitch that freezes the game. When playing vBrawl (i hate this term) with an sd card in the wii with BBrawl on it, I went to Group>Brawl, picked Snake in leopord costume, put lvl 9 random, and when it gets to the stage select screen, it freezes. I did this 3 times consecutively so it wasn't just that time, and when I took the sd card out it worked fine.
 

IrohDW

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Your wii is probably freezing because you are using stacksmash to launch geckoOS and don't have the disable custom stages code on.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Thank you for answering. I kinda wish she had another buff to a move she already has though, like (dare I say) Sing. Changes her playstyle a bit this way.

Also I dunno if this is just me or if it even needs to be fixed etc, but I found a glitch that freezes the game. When playing vBrawl (i hate this term) with an sd card in the wii with BBrawl on it, I went to Group>Brawl, picked Snake in leopord costume, put lvl 9 random, and when it gets to the stage select screen, it freezes. I did this 3 times consecutively so it wasn't just that time, and when I took the sd card out it worked fine.
This isn't a glitch. The issue here is that the SD card has smash stack on it which causes freezing when selecting a stage if the "no custom stage" code isn't on. Obviously standard Brawl (I don't like the term "vanilla Brawl" either) doesn't have this code so...

We actually discussed Sing as one of the first matters on Jigglypuff, and the conclusion was that Sing is unbuffable in a practical sense. The move is terrible and would require a massive rework to be useful at all, and it's the type of move that would probably be just plain stupid if it actually were good. A move that immobilizes the opponent completely is just a bad move concept, and we can't do anything with it. In general, Jigglypuff was kinda a design problem. She was also consistently near the very bottom of tester tier lists in version 1, and not even we thought her bad matchups were really that much better. She has a small number of very good moves and a large number of pretty terrible moves, and it would go against her whole playstyle to make most of them better. For instance, we could buff down tilt, but wouldn't that be ridiculous? The general idea of using a down tilt is kinda against what Jigglypuff stands for. Overbuffing her few good moves eventually just gets polarizing as well so the Mystery Gift was our ultimate solution. I think this is our best chance to make her a legitimately balanced character. We'd love to hear feedback in this regard.
 

Ulevo

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Why not just do what Brawl Minus did for Jiggs, and increase the hit box on Sing? Just not to that absurd magnitude.

- Rest doesn't kill until high percent
- Combos aren't prevalent, so high damaging follow ups are unlikely
- You can block the hit box easily
- Sing is highly punishable on block
- Sing doesn't effect aerial opponents

From experience, I can tell you B- Sing is mostly to punish rolls. It's hard to hit with Sing against an opponent who is watching for it while approaching, or camping, even with that massive size.

I think with a discrete increase in size, it could compliment her game (both in theme, and in play style).
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Uh, that would barely matter (and we'd have to figure out the graphic stuff which I haven't looked at). Sing is unsafe on hit until high percent at which point it's virtually instant kill as Sing -> Rest is about the fastest option (ledge-canceled Sing is obviously generally safe on hit, but that's really not worth going for at all). Furthermore, Rest itself is easier to land than Sing. There are many possible buffs to Sing that would make it still a bad move. In order to be a good move, Sing would need to be safe on hit almost always which means a pretty big rework of the move. If it were usually safe on hit (which is also the same point at which it "pretty much always leads to Rest"), it would quickly get ridiculous. The whole idea of a move that prevents the opponent from moving for a while so you can land a free hit is kinda dumb... Even more, there are already gimmicks with well-timed Sing to keep people pinned down. They are ridiculously impractical to do and even more ridiculous to consider fixing since they only work at such a percentage that you could easily kill with Rest out of that Sing. If Sing were good, we'd have to worry about those a lot more!

As per Jigglypuff's playstyle, Jigglypuff is an aerial specialist. She's about jumping around and maintaining high mobility. When she is on the ground, she prefers to mostly roll around and grab which is basically a strategy to avoid confrontation until you can get the opponent into the air as easily as possible. How is a move that doesn't work on aerial opponents possibly in line with her playstyle?

Thinkaman is the big Jigglypuff guy so maybe he has more to say, but Sing is seriously the archtypical bad idea for a move. The move is nearly doomed to be bad, and if it somehow became good, it would just be stupid. Mr. Game & Watch's Judgment Hammer and Ness's Pk Flash are other good examples of move concepts that are just bad, and I don't think we could reasonably improve them. Thinkaman would definitely mention Din's Fire here, but I like that move a bit more than he does (though still don't like how some Zelda players hyper-focus on it) so take that one as you will.

This project is lastly not about equality of moves but about equality of characters. Jigglypuff's worst matchups are against characters who can beat her at the jumping around game: Mr. Game & Watch, Wario, and Marth all have their ways about it, and apparently Wolf is suddenly scary for her since his existing good thing against her (his amazing bair!) is only complimented by his other buffs in Bbrawl. How does Sing help with any of this?
 

Ulevo

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While being a primarily mobile aerial character, the goal is typically for Jiggs to land a Rest. Possibly a Rollout. Both are unsafe to gamble on unless you know you can land them, and Jiggs doesn't have any reliable methods to do so. A buffed Sing would help ensure that. That was the main premise the suggestion was based on. I don't feel a guaranteed Rest (albeit not a guaranteed Sing) at high percents is a problem, since Jiggs was never very good at KO's to start.

I disagree that the hypothetical increased Sing hit box would be easier to land than Rest in all circumstances. But that's my take. I'm not a Jiggs main, so I won't delve too much in to the idea. Just thought I'd give my input.
 

MorpheusVGX

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Talking about stupid things (sorry, but no one answered a question I did before)... Isn't stupid to have all of Balanced Brawl discussions in this single topic? Are you thinking on having a forum or sub-form for Balanced Brawl. I think it deserves it and it needs it.
 

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No.
This thread is not very crowded to deserve its own sub-forum. Alo, AA and Thinka answer most likely everything...
 

MorpheusVGX

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Maybe but my question about the Balanced Brawl forum was not answered before. On the other hand, maybe is not crowded enough because all we have for a community discussion is in here. It seems poor ,weak and non-attractive. Take it as an advice.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Maybe but my question about the Balanced Brawl forum was not answered before. On the other hand, maybe is not crowded enough because all we have for a community discussion is in here. It seems poor ,weak and non-attractive. Take it as an advice.
I mean, do you really think making a forum would change the number of players we have? I doubt it's significant. Our intent has always been to expand if activity warranted it, and as saddening as it is, it's really not warranted right now.

Moderating a forum for a project like this is also a fairly annoying open-ended commitment, to say the least.
 

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4785-5700-5699
Switch FC
SW 3264 5694 6605
Actually, I noticed we really began discussing about matchups AFTER video footage was posted. That means that we really need it to work properly....

btw, any chance to have the .pacs for both Palkia and Dialga? I don't see Palkia's stage that bad, actually, I think is a good unique counter against high-movility characters...
 
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