Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[Krynxe]

What is being facetious?

 

[Mahone]

I always liked wheel of fortune better than jeopardy, its easier and you cant go negative... Also i think there is more strategy in WoF, Jeopardy is boring and just about memorization, but in WoF you have to adapt on the fly

 

[Yakal]

^____^


Mahone's avatar <3

 

[Metà]

Right now I think Falco Puff is even. But Falco will eventually beat Puff as the game progresses (IMO, as far as I can tell based on how the characters seem to move and how MUs change over time). He just needs to figure out how to abuse his gayness and complex character design even further. He's a space animal so by virtue of being a space animal he has a zillion moves. I am doubtful we have a full grasp of how to optimize his moveset selection vs such an obscure character - I think a lot of characters are really unrefined vs Puff... although it's not as bad as it was a few years ago (in a related note, I hate how Puff is obscure despite being top tier). I think Falco's game in the MU is only going to go up as he develops it and figures out little things that smooth over the whole procedure better - spacies by nature have a absurdly high skill ceiling because of how much they can do (and Falco is a scary dude - all those relevant threats all the time).

Puff, conversely, has very few relevant threat moves. Her top tier magic power generally works by using her physics to make the opponent suck and their stuff not work. But since Falco has a zillion moves, I think he'll eventually find moves that bypass this pretty much entirely. He has the best 'combo' move one could possibly want vs Puff (Falco dair with FFer body) because it forces her to tech all the time and her tech rolls suck (a weakness almost no other character can really exploit to a substantial degree right now). He also has really good way of trolling her main poke at a lot of relevant heights (laser so strong).

But for the moment I think it's even. Puff still keeps pace by... killing Falco really fast. Out of nowhere. Down+B. And I don't think the combo tree is as refined vs her as it is vs most other characters yet either (and her 'to be comboed' conditions are kind of strict) so she usually does a good job of avoiding his normally massive punishment.

yeah this is spot on. down-air is SO good against puff, that's how Sion always beats my puff with falco, it's just like, 2000 d-airs per game

also, puff players know how to play falco waaaay more than any falco knows how to fight puff. I don't get why people consider Puff 3rd best in the game, but so few people play her, and even fewer ever do well with her. if more people played her, she would probably get worse at the match-up over time because people would figure it out.

 

[Massive]

True story: Falco is my favorite opponent on any character.

He dies so easy from stupid crap.

 

[dudutsai]

yeah that only happens on yoshi's or with really bad DI

I rested hbox on yoshis and he came back from it

 

[hungrybox]

poke stadium isn't a real stage

 

[Wake]

PS is a stage that shouldn't exist I think.

 

[Krynxe]

The poke stadium we perceive is merely an imperfection which aims to be an ideal stage

#metaphysics

 

[Wake]

And then a Fox was born, and he saw the stage, and it was good.

 

[idea]

I hate when you rest them and the wall saves them somehow

But it's funny when they get screwed over by that weird top part of the right edge

 

[ViperGold42]

is it wrong that now I wanna pick up Puff all because I've seen Mango play her on Youtube over and over and destory people.

 

[Bieber]

is it wrong that now I wanna pick up Puff all because I've seen Mango play her on Youtube over and over and destory people.

yes, puff is gay, takes no skill, etc.


stadium is so much worse for puff than yoshi's


what do you guys think about ic's vs puff? since chu and fly have both beaten hbox recently i've heard a bunch of people say it's ic favored, but i feel like there are a few things that hbox doesn't abuse in the matchup (platform camping, retreating SH nairs from inside ic's wavedash range, random *** f-smashes and pounds to catch ic's on most of their approaches/oos options and separate them) that can actually make it pretty tough for ic's. and once nana's out of the picture, sopo has a pretty tough time coming up with an answer to puff's bair. it seems like all ic's can really do is poke at puff the whole match, but as long as you don't fall for their ice blocks/blizzard cheesing they can't really combo you. i dunno, ic's aren't covered in mahone's guide so i wanted to see what other puffs thought about melee's cutest couple

 

[dudutsai]

I think its puff favored. I play a lot against kyu puff

 

[Krynxe]

Did you say ICs?

I could barely hear over the sounds of my nair rest

 

[Massive]

ICs are the only character I will seriously use rollout on.

One of them ALWAYS gets hit.

 

[Krynxe]

I use rollout versus low tiers

Might as well have fun when you have a three stock lead

 

[Mahone]

yes, puff is gay, takes no skill, etc.


stadium is so much worse for puff than yoshi's


what do you guys think about ic's vs puff? since chu and fly have both beaten hbox recently i've heard a bunch of people say it's ic favored, but i feel like there are a few things that hbox doesn't abuse in the matchup (platform camping, retreating SH nairs from inside ic's wavedash range, random *** f-smashes and pounds to catch ic's on most of their approaches/oos options and separate them) that can actually make it pretty tough for ic's. and once nana's out of the picture, sopo has a pretty tough time coming up with an answer to puff's bair. it seems like all ic's can really do is poke at puff the whole match, but as long as you don't fall for their ice blocks/blizzard cheesing they can't really combo you. i dunno, ic's aren't covered in mahone's guide so i wanted to see what other puffs thought about melee's cutest couple

Ya i agree, hbox doesn't do any of the stuff you said and all of that stuff is good in the matchup (except maybe platform camping, i'm not too convinced that is good, but i think it would **** vs popo if you wanna just chill on the top platform and time him out lol)...

I disagree that their blocks/blizzard is "cheese", i think they put a lot of thought into it and focus on making a wall with it.

I think this matchup is very high variance though because of those pound/fsmash predicts... i feel like those are necessary, but when you are wrong you get hit hard by both of them. Grab to pummel to blizzard to upsmash kills HELLA early On the flip side, the pounds and fsmash usually lead to a death or at least killing nana so this matchup has a lot of high risk/ high reward situations. Top players generally don't like high risk/high reward stuff and value consistency, which is why hbox plays the way he does probably, but ics is one of those characters that can punish your spaced bairs pretty hard, so imo you should just play nair heavy, bait a lot and watch their habits then punish those habits with hard predict stuff

I could write a matchup guide on this because after chu beat me twice i focused a lot on learning this matchup, but i wanted to wait until i played him again to make sure all of the stuff i worked on actually works, even though im pretty sure it does. Unfortunately he did really well at Zenith and legit decided to retire. It almost makes me want to quit because when i started playing this game my goal was to beat all 3 of h2yl and i only haven't beaten chu and i think i could now or soon, but i talked to him yesterday and he invited me over but only to learn/play brawl and it really seems like he's completely done with melee...

tl;dr: i think its slight puff but a really weird, high variance, SUPER FUN matchup

ICs are the only character I will seriously use rollout on.

One of them ALWAYS gets hit.

they can just blizzard and safely beat it

 

[dudutsai]

Don't use rollout on those who know how to hard counter rollout. I won't reveal the secret so you guys are fine.

 

[Mahone]

last time i saw rollout in tourney was when i puff did it in teams and i rested him out of it lol...

people are always impressed but its hella easy to rest it...

EVERYTHING beats rollout... except if ur in 06 and consistently try to beat it with airdodging before you land lol

 

[ViperGold42]

you're telling me, there's no Guide on Jiggs here? how the hell am I suppose to learn how to play her correctly and perfectly with no guide?

 

[Bieber]

Ya i agree, hbox doesn't do any of the stuff you said and all of that stuff is good in the matchup (except maybe platform camping, i'm not too convinced that is good, but i think it would **** vs popo if you wanna just chill on the top platform and time him out lol)...

it does ****, i timed out trail last time i played him in tourney lol (i didn't mean to! we were both just playing mad safe and it ended up going to last stock high percent @ time. sorry for the gayness trail )

but yeah, i definitely agree with everything else you said. yeah if they shield the pound/f-smash their grab punish is super strong, but when you're behind their shield it's not usually too unsafe to go for (i guess they could wavedash oos in place to pivot grab if they're quick enough but i think most ic's would just end up bairing), so i feel like cross-up sh nairs, bairs, or even empty hops would work well as a set up for a safer pound/f-smash to avoid that grab --> up-smash stuff

dang i hope chu doesn't legitimately quit, his ic's are so smooooth

 

[Massive]

EVERYTHING beats rollout... except if ur in 06 and consistently try to beat it with airdodging before you land lol

The last time I played an IC main was probably in '06.

WHAT NOW MAHONE?

 

[Mahone]

you're telling me, there's no Guide on Jiggs here? how the hell am I suppose to learn how to play her correctly and perfectly with no guide?

There is a guide: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298777

it does ****, i timed out trail last time i played him in tourney lol (i didn't mean to! we were both just playing mad safe and it ended up going to last stock high percent @ time. sorry for the gayness trail )

but yeah, i definitely agree with everything else you said. yeah if they shield the pound/f-smash their grab punish is super strong, but when you're behind their shield it's not usually too unsafe to go for (i guess they could wavedash oos in place to pivot grab if they're quick enough but i think most ic's would just end up bairing), so i feel like cross-up sh nairs, bairs, or even empty hops would work well as a set up for a safer pound/f-smash to avoid that grab --> up-smash stuff

dang i hope chu doesn't legitimately quit, his ic's are so smooooth

ya i see what ur saying, but doing crossup aerials on ics is really weird, its like ur moving through jello... you have to get though both ics and hit the lcancel, plus chu usually lightshields with one, making it even weirder, i've never actually attempted to do that kind of stuff cuz i think ud just get *****, but it can't hurt to try in some friendlies...

and i think chu did quit, he had m2k at his house for the whole ****ing day and he just sat there watching, not even playing a single friendly with anyone...

The last time I played an IC main was probably in '06.

WHAT NOW MAHONE?

lol oh ****, then rollout is instakill for nana, but you know, don't let me cramp ur style, if its working for u keep on doing it

 

[KrIsP!]

you're telling me, there's no Guide on Jiggs here? how the hell am I suppose to learn how to play her correctly and perfectly with no guide?

There's a match-up guide aka mahone's thread

and a starter guide
aka Jigglypuff 101
Both are stickied.

 

[Tekk]

you're telling me, there's no Guide on Jiggs here? how the hell am I suppose to learn how to play her correctly and perfectly with no guide?

oh my GOD
I hate my life

 

[KirbyKaze]

loooool get ***** Tekk

 

[hungrybox]

platform camping is pretty hard to do on FD

 

[Wake]

You got this Hbox.

 

[dudutsai]

Having some trouble... how do I DI falco's upthrow so I don't get comboed?

 

[Bing]

I keep getting urges to use Jiggs. I miss maining that little ball of Puff

Also Mango's using Jiggs again

 

[Krynxe]

Having some trouble... how do I DI falco's upthrow so I don't get comboed?

up and away usually

If falco up+throws you, you should be able to jump away or nair before he can combo you anyways. It generally should be much of any issue, because he doesn't have fox uair

 

[Mahone]

i always di full behind, and then at like 70-80 i sdi the lasers

someone should probably thoroughly test it, but puff players are hella lazy

 

[Krynxe]

Get that strong bad guy to do it once he namesearches in here

 

[KrIsP!]

lol krynxe

I should compliment you on skype by name dropping. only way you'll see it there.

 

[dudutsai]

Maybe I'm not doing full DI back, but sometimes I get hit by the lasers, and they push me forward to let him dair combo me, and sometimes I don't.

I'll try up and away.. it sounds good.

 

[Krynxe]

It's true

But I actually haven't been on skype in awhile

And in case strong bad doesn't arrive due to his name being two words, I'll go ahead and say:

strong_bad

I bet he namesearches that just to tell the person who said it not to use an underscore

 

[idea]

oh yeahhh there's a skype group

...maybe some other time

 

[Bieber]

Having some trouble... how do I DI falco's upthrow so I don't get comboed?

i di the throw straight up into the lasers and then sdi the lasers up and behind him. if you do this every time he should never be able to hit you. actually i don't think any of falco's throws combo into anything if you di them all correctly, except maybe at really low percents

 

[Zanx8]

<3 So much fun in the Jigglypuff skype chat.