Bad Idea Mafia 4! Game Over, Scum Wins!

[#HBC | Dancer]

I didn't see Delvro's post before I made mine, so kind of. Doesn't really affect my thoughts on the playerslot though.

Not sure if you answered before but how would you feel about shooting toDay Sword?

Would whather Gova shoot but honestly don't care othetwise, as long as I get to shoot Kuz. <3

 

[Xivii]

Clown it's not reaching in the slightest. You're likely scum if Gova is town because you have the preconception that he is town. You're saying that he is not scummy BECAUSE he is town. Like you know he is town even though you have no reason for why you feel him to be town. Even what you just posted are not reasons for him being town.

-Suspicion on him being silly does not make him town. Show me how that works.
-Show it is just preference. You're working off the preconception that he is town.

 

[Clownbot]

Call it personal instinct, then. The fact that he's getting a stupidly high amount of negative attention for doing something that's not particularly scummy makes me feel like a) he's probably not scum and b) scum has listed him as a suspicion.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Kuz isn't as much a high-profile target as Ran/Lux/inactives (including Gova).

 

[Xivii]

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna shoot Gova.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Shoot him if he doesn't post before midnight CST, but you shoot him, Zen. I do not condone a shot from anyone else.

 

[Xivii]

Unless. Ryker, would you be good with Ran shooting Gova?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Would rather have you psuedo-cleared on this one so I can make up my damn mind.

 

[Xivii]

Very well.

 

[Xivii]

Kuz I know you have been online. And I know you have been in this thread. And I know you have time to post.

 

[July]

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna shoot Gova.

Honestly I would prefer Ran shoot, I think that Ryker is the only one who finds Zen suspicious.

If this does happen though, we need to figure out something about two of Kuz, Vocal, Ran and Luxor toMorrow. Just realized Vocal hasn't posted in here in a while either, which I'm not liking.

 

[July]

Shoot him if he doesn't post before midnight CST, but you shoot him, Zen. I do not condone a shot from anyone else.

Actually, now that I think about it isn't Gova v/la for WHOBO? So expecting him to post today is probably not a good bet. Zen, are you still going to shoot him at midnight if he doesn't post?

 

[Xivii]

Kuz is viewing the thread at this very moment.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Actually, now that I think about it isn't Gova v/la for WHOBO? So expecting him to post today is probably not a good bet. Zen, are you still going to shoot him at midnight if he doesn't post?

BSL and someone else in Skype was going to WHOBO. I thought it was Gord, but now I remember he's trying to go to Tallahasee next weekend, same as me. I think you're right.

TBQH though, I'd still be content with Zen shooting him or Luxor/Ran.

Don't get me wrong, Kuz's lack of content is scummy as hell. I AM NOT SAYING IT ISN'T. However, I would much rather kill off Luxor/Ran/inactive. Shoot Kuz if he stays unhelpful.

 

[Clownbot]

Zen, why are you even advocating the vote system if you're going to shoot to appease a single person's requests.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Kuz is viewing the thread at this very moment.

Actually, I was in the social thread talking about smash64. Man, that game.

Anywho, definitely shoot me if I don't start contributing soon. I have some schoolwork I need to finish up and I have been procrastinating by coming on these boards in the first place. I need to finish things up before catching up on my games.

Zen, why are you even advocating the vote system if you're going to shoot to appease a single person's requests.

This is exactly the sentiment that came to my mind. I understand Ryker wants a psuedo-clear on you, Zen, but it goes against what you have been pressuring me about this entire game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Want Zen pseudo cleared because, atm, I can't play for second guessing my read on him and wanting a gun to shoot Ran with.

 

[Xivii]

Nah I'm sticking with the system most likely.

Unvote bsl shootie; vote: summoner shootie

Ryker I will likely not even live past n2. The insurance that you need on my alignment will come in time.


@All: What do you think about setting the deadline to Wednesday?

 

[Clownbot]

So confused. Was your #807 just out of exasperation then?

Pretty sure Wednesday's fine.

 

[Clownbot]

Ebwop: #805

 

[Xivii]

No, I really want to shoot Gova. I'm weighing out the benefits of shooting scum and going against the system and following the system and possibly not hitting scum.

 

[Clownbot]

Wait, I misunderstood your post. It was in orange and BSL was who you had voted for shooter but you saying "shootie" caused confusion :S

 

[Xivii]

@____@ oops lol.

Unvote; bsl shooter; vote: Kuz as shooter.

Disregard my 818 vote.

---

Clown where are you at right now with who you want to shoot and be shot again?

 

[Xivii]

Unvote Shootee
Vote: Luxor Shootee

This is following up my 779.

However, I do realize two things:

1) I do not think Gova is the best play for toDay. Yet if his flip is going to help a lot of people with their reads (at least Swords and Zen that I saw), Gova would be a viable lynch for the Day if no other decision can be reached.

2) Delvro just posted, and as long as we get input from him soon (he said over the weekend) he isn't the scummiest person here and shouldn't be lynched. However, if we never get that content, then Delvro would really need to go because we will have no read on him whatsoever.

Basically, I want Kuz/Luxor as shooter/shootee, will be happy even if that is reversed though tbh. Willing to reach to Gova if we can't agree on anyone else toDay, and Delvro only if we don't get the content that he promised toDay.

In your 779 you wanted Kuz specifically to be the shooter though so what changed?

Swords and July: Would you be willing to compromis? You both want kuz as shooter/shootie. I want Gova to die. Will you guys agree to Kuz shooting Gova?

 

[Clownbot]

I'm not set on who should be shot toDay. There are several people I'd prefer to be the shooter though: Luxor, Sword, Delvro, and ehhh maybe Summoner. I want to agree with July that if it'll help people's reads this much we can shoot Gova but I really think we could hit a better candidate, probably if we designated one of the above people as shootee. May be willing to go Kuz.

Here's a basic outline.

I realize I should narrow it down a bit. I think right now I'm leaning Luxor for shooter.

 

[Xivii]

Also July Nvm @ that question about kuz/Luxor. Got confused with the shooter/shootee.

 

[Xivii]

I will be fine with any of the following as shooter:

Kuz
Luxor
Summoner
Vocal
Delvro

I will be fine with any of the following as shootee:

Gova

 

[ranmaru]

Zen, can you shoot?

 

[ranmaru]

Btw guys, I have done my catch up read... It's gonna be long.

 

[ranmaru]

Also, do you think July can shoot?

Do you think scum can hide within the voting system?

 

[ranmaru]

If I get quick shot after this post, the person shooting may likely be GF (Kuz)

and no. I will not support voting.

Just remember three things.

Bombs dont claim
To end each day, scummy people will shoot scummy people AFTER THEY CLAIM.
Anyone who quickshoots before scummy people can shoot the other scummy people is the scum godfather and will be killed as such the following day SO DON'T QUICK SHOOT.

I don't think one would care about survival over doing the right thing. I do not think if someone quick shot before a shooter shoots, would be the gf. I would think the that person would be a possible townie. We'd have to look at the reason why they chose someone else then the majority picked.

If you are against voting, how do you propose when and who shoots?

I will retract my scum stance on you. It's null now. It's between you and Zen. One of you is lying.

Wanna know why seph, I am so town, nator?

Because people like me and gova can ***** about not liking the system and therefore have an excuse not to use it, giving us a free pass from making connections while others do make them. This gives scum a better selection for NKs and spreading fake WIFOM the next day from NK deaths. Kapish? Did not work in the last three BiMs and it won't in this one.

Whoever said the hammerer should be the one to shoot is scum and should die asap.

Listen up. FAKING A SHOT IS A MODKILLABLE OFFENSE.

Scenario: We have one scummy person shoot another scummy person.

1. If the person says he cannot shoot when we decide he is the shooter, he must claim a PR. If he gets CCd we decide who is lying and shoot him. If someone interrupts this process and quickshoots someone else, we know that person is the godfather trying to save a buddy.

2. If the person can shoot then they are most likely town (with a small % chance of being the godfather). If we get them to shoot another scummy player than we have DOUBLE that chance of outing scum through not being able to shoot and shooting another scummy player.

This is the way we will operate. If people don't get hasty and quickshoot people, town will win. Quickshooting has literally been the driving force behind every town BiM loss thus far.

Also, Cops don't claim unless you have a guilty and a clear. That or you deem it necessary to.

Goes without saying we no shooting someone until the person being shot claims.



Now take all that in, realize scumKuz would tell you all of this hoping to get on your good side, and then realize its bad meta and discard it. What are you left with?

townKuz.

Now lets kick some scum *** for once. kthx

"Whoever said the hammerer should be the one to shoot is scum and should die asap. "

For example, I don't understand why you felt this way. You condemn others for taking your fluff for granted, yet you don't even make your own points clear.

You didn't have to ask us if scumkuz would do this, so this is townkuz. That is why I questioned you. But now I'm null on you because of Zen using your scum meta against you from SC. He is using it strongly.

mmmmmmmhm, explain why they don't.

Could it be the fact that I intentionally WIFOMd the possibility that I was scum twice in an attempt to make you think I was not scum?

Yeah, I bet that was it.

Nice way to skip everything I actually said and just focus on the fluff. Now tell me Swordscumder. Why have you continued to implement the stupid voting system when I myself just explained why it was dumb. If you were going to be stubborn about it, you could have at least tackled my points and tried to show me that voting was actually the best solution. Instead, you summarily dismiss my argument by focusing on the unimportant sentences and try to make it seem as if you are scum hunting. Sound about right?

If I actually believed in voting, I would be voting you right now.

That in the blue. You say that, but your explanation of how the voting system failed was confusing. I didn't like that post, especially the part about you and gova taking free passes. Please elaborate on that and how the voting system failed?

I can see that it isn't doing well here. I don't really care about voting, though. So don't say I was taking stances on people who were against voting. Gova had a good reason. Yet he is still null to me.

What makes you special? Why do you refuse to do it without laying down logic or proof of why it's wrong to do so?

Votes are in mafia games for a reason, and by not implementing it, we put town in a serious disadvantage.

Well, Seph, he doesn't have to. Just make him accountable for his own actions. For example, if Kuz shoots someone with no reason or weak reason, shoot him the next day. (We'll have to have a shoot quickshooters policy unless we believe the quickshooter had good reason to)

This is a different kind of mafia. I think it would be best to listen to Kuz about why it may fail, since he was in the last BIM. Zen was too, so I want to see why voting would counter quick shooting with ample time and reasoning. Did it work before? Why didn't voting work before, and how could it be perfected in this game?

Btw, I want to see Luxor putting an effort for the vote system. Can't let July do it herself (since Seph is v/la).

The second half I don't really get, but the first half is adequate and true. You correctly say that the problem with a voluntary voting system is when people start to ignore it or game it or otherwise abuse it. However, I'd like to at least attempt to use a voting system and try to get it to work. If it works, great; if it doesn't, we don't lose anything. That sound fine to you?

fixed this btw
votee|voters
Sworddancer| SummonerAU
Kuz l Sworddancer Sephiroth Luxor

Hey broski, could you continue to alternate with Seph/July for implementing it? The town really needs it. **** whatever Ryker or whoelse says. If you believe the town needs it, do ettt.

First of all. Vote counts are a waste of time. There's a reason mods keep track of the votecounts; so the players can actually play the game. Town is going to be so distracted trying to remember who is voting who that it will be a distraction from scum hunting. Also the person who keeps track of the vote count will be fake contributing and has an excuse for lack of content. You know what solves this problem? Forcing stances out of people over and over agian. It's similar to popcorn mafia on AIM except now everyone has a gun. BIM is also fundamentally different and that's why there aren't vote counts, simply because this game doesn't need them. Trying to implement a mechanic in a game that doesn't need it is a big waste of time and is bound to fail. There's also the chance that someone quick shoots effectively making your efforts worthless. Also with out votecounts reasoning for shooting take a high priority in this game. I.E if someone shoots they better have a damn good reason for doing so. Vote counts essentially add a bandwagon factor to this game that we don't need. We need to see everyones individual opinion and if they see a votecount they can just ride on the scummiest person that the votecount shows. Basically this is a game where people need to be held accountable for what they say and do because almost everyone has the power to end the day.

I like your post, and the end of it too.

Your first two reasons are kind of invalidated by the system I supposed. Nobody can claim activity for doing votecounts if everybody just updates as they vote, which also distributes the workload making votecounting as easy as voting.

Also, votecounts alone aren't going to make people scummy- with or without them, there will be scummy people that are easy prey for daykills. Bandwagons will always exist due to mob psychology.

Forcing stances out of people and holding them accountable also needs to be done in every game. Pretty much everything you said is irrelevant to whether an official votecount exists or not, since it isn't that hard tonread public opinion.

I'm going to reiterate my official stance on voting. If it doesn't work after a while, I'll abandon it- but I'd like to try it out first. Consider it a test run. Maybe we could even vote Day 1 and not vote Day 2 and see which works better.

Did you already abandon it? Why?

You can force stances with a vote count Seph but why add something uncessary? It's waste of time. Quickshooting is not scummy, it's anti-town. A townie is more likely to quickshoot than mafia, just saying. Also, the vote count thing didn't even work in BIM3. Keeping track of a vote count is a waste of time and effort. There are better things to do.

Gova, who would you not trust with shooting in the town?

I ask this because then you'd be putting trust in the townies that can shoot, and even the gf (if he isn't scummy). Are you ok with that? Especially since Bsl and Ryker claimed pr's? (even though they aren't fully uncc'd yet)

Quickshooting is what made town lose BIM3. And yes it is anti town. Why the hell would you quick shoot? It really is just self servicing which does more harm then good.

And the vote count will only not work, if self serving town decide to ignore it or quick shoot. Gova, adding the vote count isn't unnecessary, it helps keep track of stances and helps town have a controlling factor in the game. There is no flaw other than the sheer laziness of town.

I'm pretty sure the town is not dumb enough to quick shoot when frustrated. I was a bit frustrated, but I think with the town in mind.

Has the town acted selfish to you since?

Also, how are you going to carry out your "lynching" policy with vote counts? When someone reaches the correct amount of votes then what? I'll tell you right now, if I get "lynched" off your voting system I will shoot before you even get a chance to kill me.

This is true. How do you propose someone shoots someone that is scummy? Would you wait for someone to take the initiative?

If we don't have a votecount, and there is multiple scummy people, how do we decide who to shoot?

We don't, like Gova said. Now that I know you and Ryker are partially confirmed pr's, I could understand that you'd rather vote the person who you think is scum.

Maybe people should have posted stances and scumpicks. Most important would be the scumpicks. I do not think people who can shoot should say they can shoot or that they are willing to shoot. Why? Because scum would kill daykillers as if they were pr's.

"Gord you should copy our aim convo from earlier into here.

So yeah as I was saying earlier, we just need a mishot today on a day killer. Then we Night Kill a Day Killer (someone we know can shoot) and the game would be at 3 - 2 -3 d3.

You quickshoot (someone we know is a DK), putting it at 2 - 2 - 3.
We NK a DK. 1 - 2 - 3 on d4.

You're quickshot + cop outs himself (or not). 1 - 2 - 2 in the night. Then we NK the final DK for the win.

d4 I would also probably claim bomb if the opportunity presented itself, allowing us to get the actual bomb killed over you that day perhaps."

I was reading BIM3 qt with Zen as gf.

Anyways, then with the people who could shoot, would step up and want to shoot their top scumpick. Not all would agree, but since they do have more scumpicks, I'm sure they could argue and compromise. Only drawback I can see with this is a swingy "Sorry I don't feel like those are good choices, imma shoot MAN X" and bam.

Of course the shooters who would come forward, SHOULD NOT shoot within 5 minutes. They should give their scum pick ample time to claim and defend themselves, and for others to refute you. Also, keep in mind that if you try to be hasty another townie may quickshoot before you, so don't be rough. Give the whole town time to react.

Also I would suggest everyone wait to see if other shooters come forward. Try not to come out all at once. Also, if you are deemed scummy yet are a townie with a gun, decide whether to quick shoot another scummy or just be shot so that people can see you were right/telling the truth. (It still is up to you, just make sure the choice you make is right for town) I would choose the latter because I don't want a chain of shootings on quick shooters. (Even though the policy is there, to prevent people from shooting and losing for town)

Of course, this is just an idea. If the voting system fails, try to fall back on this. This does not show that I am against voting. I don't really care for it.

Only thing that matters is scumhunting, and making the right decisions to catch them red handed. If a majority or individual picks, it doesn't matter.
The individual would have to have a strong reason to decide to shoot, as a wagon leader would have to. I wouldn't think someone would shoot without good reason, because no one wants to be shot back for a dumb mistake. Also, the individual would have to had a consistent stance on that player. That way we would know that person legit wanted that person gone as scum.

Some of the ideas in this might not work since everyone has said they are willing to shoot, but it's here regardless for future speculation.

I know Clown already addressed the bulk of it but there's a few things I would like to add.

Gova, you realize that even without votes, there will still be people who won't share there thoughts with us, right? You make it sound like having a vote count will somehow give scum something to hide behind. This is not the case. With or without the votecount, scum has just as many options to "hide" behind.

scum can fake stances without voting
scum can fake stances with voting

So you might as well have a convinent system to tell us when person A was going after person B, if you catch my drift.

Also, I noticed that one of the main reasons why you're against vote counts is because you say it will generally encourage scummy activity. Here's what I have to say to that:

If someone votes without giving reason, then go after them mofos.
If you think someone is bandwagoning, then go after them mofos.
If you think someone is using the votecount as a way to provide false content, then go after them mofos.

Gova, you say you're most willing to shoot either me or Luxor right now. Why is that?

"scum can fake stances without voting"

So does it boil down to finding scum by seeing who can and cannot shoot then?

Think of this: Scum and pr's can't shoot (except gf). Townies don't need to vote, since they can practically "Lynch scum" themselves. As we could see, BSL was for voting (since he as a pr who could not shoot), Ryker was telling others they could shoot and they have the power. Ryker had to play a confusing style so scum would avoid him. Scum want misshots, but they can only get that to happen by convincing or forcing others to shoot possible townies. Voting can accomplish this. Essentially there should be 2-3 other townies who would want a vote to happen. (Unless they hide) I say 2-3 since the GF can shoot, but we don't know if he'd want people to know if he can shoot.

Vote counts are dumb. I'm too lazy to repost the vote list every time I vote and I'd rather just shoot someone dead. Why can't we just say no shots until at most 2 days before deadline?

IMO, mafia love to excessively calculate crap about the setup when it's open. It's easy because all the information is out there and they can talk extensively about it without risk of lying. I did it extensively in TWEWY.

Pretty much all of you are doing it, so all of your are scummy and need to die. Except maybe Sworddancer.

K thanks bye!

I won't retract my scum stance on you. It would be a weak stance, but replace now or be shot. Or pick up on your activity. Do not think people will go easy on you since you coasted to victory in Celeb.

@Sword

Luxor is inherently trying to appease both sides of the arguement imo by saying we should try the vote count and if it doesn't work we drop it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with him trying it. I don't like that he didn't commit to it though.

All it takes it three people for the system to not work.

"But Kuz, then we can just quickshoot the three people who are not cooperating"

Three townie deaths equal an endgame if we're all town. Not saying that me gova and delvro are all town though, just saying the mechanics behind it are thus. Or maybe I am saying they are all town. Yeah, probably that.

Scummies shooting scummies is an amazing strategy. If we know someone is obvtown and he shoots, then we just learn he is more obvtown while finding out the alignment of the other person who died. If a scummy shoots a scummy, we find out both of their alignement more or less (as the shooter either shoots, or claims a pr; or is the scum gf is we are unlucky.)

Anyone else notice swords using the same fake analysis over and over again? And Gova actually phrased in quite nicely (I was suprised). Quickshooting is not scummy, as it gives you like a 8:1 ratio that you're town, but its anti-town in that fact that it messes up games.

True. Which is why the shooter should give time and reasoning before shooting. I do not think the people against voting are scum for that reason.

In fact, I believe scum would be for voting, since they cannot misshoot people themselves. They'd have to force/convince others to shoot for them. Like Ryker has been. (Yet he is a bomb)

I think it would be in our best interests to see who were for voting, strongly for voting, and anyone who was coasting/ vla/ hiding their stances etc.

Zen says going against the group majority reduces the chances of winning even if you had a sure read. Does he explain how it does? No. Why would a majority be more right then a single individual with a SURE READ.

It's just as if two individuals disagreed with each other. This is just that there would be two groups: The Group, and the Individual. How can the Group be more right than the individual? In Mafia games here, do we get scum on the first Lynch? NO. So whats wrong with an individual taking the decision into his own hands? Nothing, if he does it right.

Zen had implemented the voting thing, but isn't really pushing the partaking of it. For example, Luxor has given up on keeping a check on the votes. Has Zen said anything about this? I feel without the occasional vote count being here, that someone may just shoot since they don't even know if the majority has officially made a decision.

Will you be doing this about stance on people in game too? If we ask you for more substance you'll say "No, my reason is good enough, if you don't like it, or think it needs more to be enough, sucks for you!"?

You don't get it do you? You can still force stances with a vote count!

You know what? How about we try doing the vote count without you guys? Just because you three won't be using the system doesn't mean the rest of town won't be. If you guys decide to join mid game or even mid day, go right ahead, but in the meantime. We'll be using the system.

I agree that people should open up more about their stances. If you try to hide your stances, you should be shot.

Why should it be done without them, Seph?

i'd say quickshooting is still pretty damn scummy. if it was a 100% confirmation that shooting makes you town, then it isnt scummy. but there is a chance that a mafia member is the quickshooter.

so yeah, odds are that a shooter is town, but since it directly hurts town, no town member would do it, and therefore the quickshooter is scum.

not saying its a 100% scum tell, but more often than not, i would think a quickshooter is scum.

I disagree. More likely to be town then scum. Do you think GF would quickshoot early? I do not think so. Quickshooting is anti-town, though. It messes stuff up for town. This is why we are trying to decide what to do with those shooters.

Why so willing to give up on the voting idea already? The game hasn't even started yet and I don't think the discussion was really a "crapstorm". I still think that voting is worth trying to determine the lynch, and that if the shooter for the Day isn't voted they at least need to be determined by town.

You are currently the only one keeping the voting system in check. You need help, and even Luxor has given up. Even so, I'm sure scum would rather vote to be able to channel others to shoot for them.

Tbh I'm fine with just riding public opinion now. As long as a pseudomajority/plurality are for it, it'll give basically the same results as voting. Being all indy and shooting on your own is still a no-no.

Why are you fine with it, Luxor? Why have you given up on the voting system?

And **** voting.

I like your stance. I'm thinking now that people who are for voting or strongly for it may be scum. (Or just those hiding, but what scum would let the town run itself?)

Once again, do votes always reflect a person's stances in a standard game of Mafia?

Seph is using his votes the same way some people would in any other game. He feels something is best for town so he's obviously going to push for it.

Yes. But we forget that scum would NEED voting to manipulate the crowd to misshoot. Of course, you could say that they would only need their words to really do that, but wouldn't the crowd get suspicious if the person talking the talk hasn't shot himself?

Basically, scum can hide behind the vote system.

Seph, we don't need stability with a vote count. Almost everyone has a gun and that's what gives this game stability though it is fragile and hard to regain once upset. Show me where I claimed I'll be playing lazy this game. You can't because I didn't Why are you lying so soon? And hey if this game doesn't have a vote count we don't need one. People with more experience than us couldn't do it and don't bring in your appeal to experience fallacy or w/e because it means nothing to me. This is a game of convincing people and you don't always have to do it logically. No, Seph. It has always been circular. We're argueing about mechanics your opinion can't be wrong and neither can mine. We are just going to be saying the same things over and over again. That's why I told you to drop it.

Gova, how else then logically can people be convinced of someone being scum?

This Seph/Gova conversation caught my attention, although admittedly because most of the dialog between Seph and Gova has just been going in circles. However,

Seph: I also dislike Gova's argument that we can't make votes work because the vets can't, however this:



Is an exaggeration. That one point doesn't nullify the rest of Gova's argument, and I get this feeling you are really trying to tear down Gova's entire argument when that's not going to do any good. I highly doubt that doing so would make Gova agree to a voting system. I'm sure it won't make Delvro, Kuz, and Ryker all change their minds about the system and re-instill confidence in Luxor, so there is no use fixating on it.



The bolded part I disagree with, this set-up seems inherently instable, because we almost all have guns regardless of if there are rules and voting systems in place or not, and anyone with a gun has the ability to act out of impulse and throw the game into chaos. In all honesty there's not much we can do about it anyways.

@Seph, I feel like you've been keeping this conversation between you and Gova going on for awhile. Do you consider this conversation scum-hunting? Do you find Gova scummy?

Also, I was unclear about Zen's 144 but BSL already asked a question about the 100% town part. Still confused by the basketball game part though, so Zen, if you could explain what you mean by that (I'm also not sure if it's addressed strictly to Ryker, or to town), that would be good too.

July, can you tell me the pros and cons of a voting system? (Keep in mind that townies can shoot, and that only one GF can shoot)

All caught up ^_^. Kuz, Gova, and Delvro are all ******** (and now Ryker, but I expected as much from him). Kuz is playing just aweful. Probably scum. Kuz you say you want scummies to shoot scummies, but how the hell would we determine who the scummies are without some sort of votecount!!!?? Everyone's opinion differs so we need to take vote counts to determine who the majority want to shoot and be shot. Your wanting scummies to shoot scummies is contradictory to not wanting a vote count.

Gova, the vote count didn't work in BIM3 because it was a horrible town. So far this game looks like it will have a decent amount of activity. BIM3 are so called experienced players, but they sucked hard core because of this arrogance. It's players like you that prevent town from progressing as you simply create dishormony. You're preventing a system from possibly succeeding before it is even tried out with this group. Your refute of the vote system is so anti-town, it's ridiculous.

Here is what we are doing:

-We vote for who we want lynched. Seph, Lux, and July will take care of the vote count.
-Once majority is reached at any time, we will then proceed to the second vote count of who we want to be shooter. Again, Seph, Luxor, and July will be keeping track.

SO LONG AS WE STICK TO IT WE WILL WIN. The problem past BIMs have had is that everyone is so caught up in the power that THEY themselves have and thus fail to work as a group authority. I came into this game so so so tempted to shoot Gova because of how obv scum he is. But no matter how much I think he is scum, doing so would illogical. Going against the group reduces the chances of winning so much even when you do have a sure read. If you have that much certainty, then you should be able to convince others as well. Shooting on your own would just be illogical when we could get someone scummy to do it.

Now as for the problem of the chosen target shooting against town's will: we absolutely quickshoot them the next day. As I said before, establishing an absolute town authority is necessary for ensuring we win this. SOMEONE (who is chosen as the lynch) GOING AGAINST THE TOWNS WILL AND SHOOTING SOMEONE ELSE WOULD CAUSE MORE DAMAGE THAN ACCEPTING BEING LYNCH. Doing so would not only potentially cause a mislynch seperate from yours, but it would also cause result in your quicklynch the following day. Thus if you are town you would be causing 2 myslynches and a loss of a day. Anyone who would do this is just out right playing against their wincon and a bad mafia player who should be blacklisted. Not even joking. The goal is for town to win. If you are town and the majority set's you as the lynch, your mislynch would be more beneficial to town overall than you shooting someone else which would just hurt town. I hope everyone gets what I'm saying with this. We need to establish it as absolute law that quickshooters WILL be quickshot the next day. It's been the mistake of the past 3 BIMs of assuming that establishing such a rule is more devistation to town. It is not. It eliminates quickshooting as a whole so long as our threats our not empty. Yes it's more likely that a quickshooter is town than godfather, but establishing this rule will stabalize town and provide an effective environment for the vote system. We may still get a ******** stray who feels the need to be rebellious. In that event then oh well they stupid as hell and **** us up. We could still recover though and at least they die.

We need this rule though. If we establish an organized rule, we are putting ourselves in a way better position than the past 3 BIMs. They failed to realize their fault. We can make a difference.
The vote system will work. Kuz will join and Delvro may join
(depending on his alignment). Thus Gova and Ryker will be the only one's not voting. We can simply get their stances indavidually. Same if Kuz and Delvro do not join in.

With the established rule of shooting whoever goes against the majority, we can keep this system stable. Those who do not vote or contribute reason simply are throwing away their influence they have on that majority.

Seph, July, Me, Swords, Luxor, Summoner, bsl, and Clown are all for this, yes? If there are no disagreements, it will be assumbed so, and this will be taken into effect starting asap n_n.
Liberating but stupid. Play the game right.

Try it for today. There is absolutely no reason not to.

Why the exception of Sworddancer?

Why were you suprised?

Did he really change your view that easily??? What specificalky changed your mind frame?

^lol Vocals scumbuddy.

No, I thought I'd let you give it a try n_n.

Will you be the shooter n_n? I really want you to be the shooter. Also you didn't answer me about basketball =D.

"SO LONG AS WE STICK TO IT WE WILL WIN. The problem past BIMs have had is that everyone is so caught up in the power that THEY themselves have and thus fail to work as a group authority. I came into this game so so so tempted to shoot Gova because of how obv scum he is. But no matter how much I think he is scum, doing so would illogical. Going against the group reduces the chances of winning so much even when you do have a sure read. If you have that much certainty, then you should be able to convince others as well. Shooting on your own would just be illogical when we could get someone scummy to do it."

Yes, but the thing is: The town doesn't have to convince the others. Only thing they need to do is give fair warning and let the target give a defense and others time to refute it and decide after that. I would look down upon quickshooting though. We do need public opinion, it could give us different angles of perception. I do not think one should be shot back if they DID give fair warning, ample time for the target to defend themselves, and ample time for the town to refute the shooter's case. If one does decide to shoot THAT shooter, they cannot say "He quick shot" because he didn't. Yet this shouldn't happen if that person had time to refute the reasoning.

Let's call it smart shooting.

=====================

Also, I disagree. They still have the power to shoot back. If they can, we should ask them to claim, their scum picks, and if they have the ability to shoot.

Although it would be better to take the lynch since if you shot someone just because you panicked, you'd be under pressure the next day and it'd just become a distraction. Like I said, shooting that person the next day needs to be considered.


Zen, do not call anyone ******** for going against the voting system. If the town can't work with each other because of this, why not try to find a compromise?

I feel that someone shooting with reasoning, and fair warnings and all, (smart shooting), would NOT warrent a blacklisting. Of course I want to win, and I don't want crazy shots hit up before anyone can say anything. Although I would find that thread baseless. (Because there isn't a rule against being dumb and quick shooting, it only shows you really want the voting system in place)

This is why a deadline NEEDS to be put up tho. That, I can agree with.

Zen is fishing for them townie points really hard.

I agree.

Omg Zen, did you REALLY just give free license to quick shoot for someone being a hero? That's ********.

Hey town, if you decide to shoot me and I then shoot Gova (for example, not a scumpick) and he flips mafia, are you gonna quick shoot me to "establish authority?" I'ldl state right here that I'll scum hunt better than any of you and will act on that assumption. Even if I hit town, are you going to quickshoot me and end the phase? That's like saying since I lead a wagon on a townie, I should be immediately bandwagoned and lynched without discussion.

Scum Team ATM:

Zen
Luxor
Sworddancer

Don't just quick shoot broski. Give some time at least. (or if you had a gun, now that u claimed bomb)

So? It happened, but I'm town. I've already expressed that I'm going to do what I think is right if it comes to it, so what will you do about it. Will you be the one to quick shoot me and end the day phase with no discussion? I'm damn sure the godfather would be down to do it for you and make sure no one got to talk about anything.




This game is a sea of WIFOM. You guys are drowning and I'm doing the ****ing backstroke.

I think if anyone wanted to shoot you for quick shooting, they'd have to think about it long and hard if they want to win for town.

It's only an anti-town decision if I'm wrong. Is this about justice now Seph? I should

PAY THE PRICE......

Disregard whether the decision is anti-town or not, you're GOING to have to deal with it if I think it's significantly more likely to hit scum. Say outright whether you would or would not quick shoot me.

Yes, if you are wrong and don't give the town time to react/say anything.

Right now I'm not feeling great about Luxor based on how quickly he changed his mind on the voting system with the reason being



I feel that as the issue became divisive he started to ride the line between both sides. Swords has been pretty clear with his opinion on voting, but idk how he feels about any players right now so he's pretty null atm.



I would restrain myself from shooting you, then vote for who the scummiest person other than the quickshooter (you) for shooter. I'm assuming **** will hit the fan, someone else will quickshoot you after I post my opinion or the town will decend into chaos and decide against the shoot all quickshooters plan. First case scenario we now have your flip and another quickshooter to be dealt with the next Day. Second scenario then considering shooting=good chance your town I'd pick two other scummy people for target/shooter, and go from there. If by some chance the original concept holds up, then you should be lynched that Day by someone else scummy. If you quickshoot happens its pretty much a lose-lose in every situation unless you flip scum or the idea gets overturned and we happen to hit scum with a different lynch, but either way the lesson is don't freaking quickshoot, so we don't have to deal with such a ****ed up situation.

Yeah I don't like that either. Has Zen ever assigned someone else to do it since Lux stopped? What if you had midterms all week, what do then?

I honestly don't care about the system. Scum can hide behind voting. (Since they don't have guns)

Just look at who was for voting, and see if they would either shoot themselves, or assign others to shoot for them. Be wary of that.

No, I wouldn't 1. Quick shooting someone without any discussion at all is dumb. Quick shooting someone who quick shoots is dumb and contradictory to your original idea of deciding who shoots who with votes. Quickshooting a quickshooter is more anti-town that the original quick shot imo.

I agree. I think one should think long and hard before shooting.

Also, would much rather hit Sworddancer or Luxor than Zen, atm.

July, Seph, and myself are town.

Null on everyone else not mentioned.

I'd like Zen dead, ya.

Where was the talk with Ryker going Seph? It was leading to either Ryker changing his mind (unlikely imo) or you getting sick of it and dropping it. I want you to think about how that discussion was helping us find scum. If you still think it was helping us find scum and you now find me scummy because I told you to stop, bring that up, but if you don't find me scummy and you just want to argue that it was helping. I'm not going to reply to it because it'll be a waste of time talking about it. You should just continue talking about whatever you want if you think I'm wrong and don't find me scummy for telling you to stop.

I forgot if I posted about BSL's post and right now I want to make dinner so I'm going to post about it here. BSL's post was bad. No doubts about that. I don't remember him saying anything significant at all either. I would not mind BSL getting shot/shooting someone if he continues doing this.

I agree. I disagree with the Seph conversation being unhelpful though. In this game we'd have to argue about the mechanics and bring up plans to get to victory. Of course I am suspicious of the motive behind it.

Indeed. You're already moving up to townie for me though. You just make it so obvious. Though iir you were obv town when you were scum as well eh?

Hmmm mm mmm. Well how about this. We vote for scummy #1. Then we vote for scummy #2. Then we vote for who shoots and who gets shot ^O^.

She was. She was afraid she might have had to quick write something and come off as scum.

Idc about voting. I think people who are for voting should try shooting, hmm?

because scum knowing who the bomb is with the GF around is bad. We want to deny scum as much knowledge about it as possible. If you ask me if they should claim after the GF dies, I'm going to say "it depends on the situation".

Why are you asking this Zen, it isn't getting us anywhere. The only reasons I can see for asking me this string of questions is to see if I've actually thought about the game (which shouldn't be an alignment read) or you're trying to make some point about what I said to Seph by giving me reads off what I've said which shouldn't give you any alignment reads because the things I said were straight up numbers.

Oh wow. That's a hell of a scum tell right there.

No it wasn't. I feel as though you are half-assing on your scumpicks, bro. Like Luxor. Weakest scumpick ever. I know that you are essentially picking people you wouldn't trust in Endgame. Not really like they are dumb, we are new to the game you know.

**** your stable system, just be right about your scum picks and act decisively when the time comes to act. I mean, if you have any confidence, then simply convince me that you're right and I'll pull the trigger if need be. They won't be shooting anyone if they aren't godfather and I feel that I can distinguish between godfather and disgruntled town, so I WELCOME that shot. That means you simply have to convince town shooters that you're right so they don't usurp you. Do you think you are good enough to do that Zen?

I do not think he did convince me well. I suspect him. Why? Why has he said he wanted to shoot Gova, then he would ask if it was a better idea that I should shoot? I'm kool with shooting.

Activity level (& content level):

1.) th3kuzinator =]
2.) Kirbyoshi =]
3.) Gova =]
4.) Zen
5.) Clownbot =]
6.) Ryker
7.) BSL =]
8.) Luxor =]
9.) Sephiroths Masamune =]
10.) SummonerAU =]
11.) Delvro =]
12.) -Vocal- =]
13.) Sworddancer =]
14.) July =]

Grouped ( no particular order)

4.) Zen
6.) Ryker
7.) BSL =]
9.) Sephiroths Masamune =]
13.) Sworddancer =]
14.) July =]
5.) Clownbot =]
10.) SummonerAU =]
1.) th3kuzinator =]
3.) Gova =]
8.) Luxor =]
2.) Kirbyoshi =]
11.) Delvro =]
12.) -Vocal- =]

Delvro should not be allowed to slide by this game as he had in Celebrity. Gova shouldn't be allowed to go through his inactivity spurts either. Inactives seriously need to pressured and die this game. We can't afford inactivity this game at all.

I would laugh if the three in the red were scum. But that can't be since Gova isn't in there.

I disagree, I do not think Gova is scum.

What, do you want me to put together a team? Top scum pick right now is probs BSL. Kuz is still null as well as Kirbyo and Delvro. I don't feel as bad about Sword as it seems others are but I'm not a fan of his last post.

A lot of people are leaning town to me right now. I think that's a good thing. I hope it is.

Zen, are you going to say what you think is the only reason Bomb shouldn't claim? I don't see a problem with Summoner's response, I think it pretty much fits with what Sword said about why the bomb shouldn't claim when he answered my question about it.

Clownbot, I hope you can fix that list. Bsl is your only scum pick, and he claimed cop. Try again bro.

I'd then think you are a cautious scum if you do not get 2 more scum picks.

Wow... I can't believe that we have 100 posts in a row talking about whether or not to quickshoot. Quickshooting. Is. Horrible...... duh (town bomb makes it even worse).

Zen, I find it annoying that you lump me in with Ryker on this topic. I specifically said that scummies should shoot scummies. That inherently means that I'm against quickshooting because every townie knows that he is town.

Also Zen. I'm not going on some kind of anti-voting charade. I simply don't feel like copy pasting a bunch of stuff every time I make a "vote". I want to give my scum suspects at least two at a time, one who will shoot and one will get shot. That would require two votes.
In general, I like the way you ruffle things around, but You're making a lot of aggressive statements toward people for things that aren't really all that scummy. Stop nitpicking.

Ryker, I've seen you play vigilante roles in mafia games before. So do you mind if I politely make a request of you? Please don't shoot anyone. Ever. It's a waste of a good read.

If I had to end the day now, I would want to see Summoner shoot Luxor. Everything they say reeks of scum. I didn't think Kuz was scummy, but Swords's post made me suspicious. Maybe Kuz could shoot Luxor instead, Either one.

I think Zen should die. He is for voting, yet seems to be avoiding shooting.

I don't think you should have gotten an alignment read from what I said Zen, what I said wouldn't have changed for either alignment. I'm not answering your question because it could be used in speculation about my role.

This doesn't apply anymore. Cop and bomb claimed, so why else would you want to hide speculation from your role?

I was really quiet in the newbie game, I think a lot of people found me town just because each Day we had one or two scummy people who drew a lot of the attention of town.

Right now I don't care which is lynch target/shooter, but my top scum picks are Luxor and BSL.

BSL has more posts than Luxor, but both have been almost silent about their scum picks. Luxor provided his thoughts early on when there was a discussion about mechanics, but seemed to follow public opinion and I haven't seen many strong stances from him in general, but especially about players.

BSL on the other hand has posted quite a bit but with so little content. And even after Zen and Clown called him out for not being vocal about his scum picks I'm still not seeing any scum picks or even scum-hunting from him.

Swords has had some good posts and some bad posts, really a null read on him. I saw at least Delvro bring up the possibility of Summoner as scum but I haven't found his answers particularly scummy.

@Delvro, could you explain at least one post that makes you think Summoner is scummy?



Speaking for myself, yes to being nocturnal .



I'm not sold on Kuz scum, and I don't think the examples you pull out here are inherently scummy, but more you are looking for scummy intent behind them. I would really like to see more from Kuz though.

@Kuz, feeling on Delvro and Zen so far?

Also, not quite sure what you mean by "backseat". I'm not posting as much as others but I'm on Spring Break so until that's done (tomorrow unfortunately), I shall be reading and catching up at night THEN asking and answering questions and such.

As for Ryker, he is one of the people I have a town read on, as well as Clown and Seph. He's been active, very openly providing his opinions and asking questions, all good things.

Yep! One of em was me. I was the scummiest. I was the cop... I was trying to be as vocal as possible. I was trying to be a leader.

July was null the whole time but I thought the scum lied within Oki/the two IC's.

I did play badly there, though, as I did in SC. Thanks to X1 I play a bit better.

I go skiing for ONE DAY and I come back to all of this. Remind me not to have a life lol.

@Zen: The issue with voting is that everyone kind of has to be on board. Gova made a (surprisingly logical) post explaining how if everybody BUT X, Y, and Z votes, then X, Y, and Z get an *almost* free pass to avoiding hard stances, unless it's deliberately forced out of them. My scummy flip-flop came from reading that post and then noting that there are a few players who pretty much won't ever vote. I'm just not sure it will work without cooperation among the town- I feel Ryker/Gova/Kuz are scummy for being so hostile to the idea, or even the idea of merely experimenting with it. I don't really feel like they're putting town first.

Will post after church when I have all day to kill.

Luxor I feel being opposed to idea isn't scummy. Remember that scum need people to shoot for them, so voting would be an ideal strategy for them.

Delvro, glad to see you are town. I hope you remain town ^_^.

Delvro why Summoner & Luxor? And what are your thoughts on July & bsl?

As for the vote counts, July/Seph/Luxor are going to take care of it. All you have to do is vote ^o^

Now this is interesting. Tell me Summoner, are you putting thought into anything you say? This post right here is balogna (Just got done watching cloudy with a chance of meatballs so food seems to be on my mind O_O).

You're not answering if you had thoughts about if bomb should claim before I asked you because it could used for speculation about your role?? For one, not really. By this I assume you are saying that the bomb would have thought about it, but a regular townie wouldn't have? This is not the case at all. So far it has been brought up and commented on by at least 4 people, and I would think I'm not the only one who actually thinks about how we can best win this game. It even shows in BIM3 that both townies, bombs, and scum had all shown consideration towards this. So for you to refuse to answer for the so called reason of it possibly outing you as bomb or townie is ridiculous. Second of all, this statement in itself causes more speculation than you answering the question would have ever done! This would be like someone saying "I don't want to talk out loud because I don't want people to know if I have a voice or not!" By saying the statement they are in fact revealing that they can speak and thus have a voice. Based on what you are attempting to prevent with this (speculation of your role), you are, in the very process creating it.

Now then what reasons would you do this for? Let's go through each of the possible roles you could be to find out.

1. Bomb. No bomb would ever say this if it was truly their belief that they should remain hidden. If they did, they would be as stupid as the kid who speaks out that he doesn't want people to know if he has a voice or not. Since there is no such person in existance as this kid, except for maybe Bunny from Powerpuff girls episode #45, you are not the bomb. No one is that stupid. Therefore, we can scratch that off.

2. Cop. Cop bringing attention to himself for no reason? No. Scratch that off.

3. Townie. This would be the most likely out of the town-aligned roles. But what reason would a townie have for hiding that he is townie? Townies need to be up front in this game. Trying to keep whether they are they can shoot or not would be ridiculously anti-town. That would screw with the biggest advantage we have over scum. Finding out who can't shoot is our most sure chance of outing scum. So for a townie to be shady over whether they can shoot or not is anti-logical/anti-BIM/anti-town. I'll leave it to the possibility that you are anti-logical so I wont fully discount it, but I think the fourth option is more likely.

4. Scum. We know that the bomb himself would never say such a thing as it simply brings attention that he could be bomb! Who would want the attention of being a bomb? Who would benefit from such speculation?

That's right, scum ^_^. As we know, two scum cannot shoot. So what's going to happen if one of them are found out not to be able to shoot? By then, they are screwed. Their only chance is to claim cop/bomb, get the real/Counter Claimer killed and spare them a day. So obviously it is the best interest of these two scummies to avoid being chosen to shoot as best as they can. And that's where your comment comes in to play.

Summoner: Hey I may be a bomb guys, I don't wan't scum to know.
Town Member: (Summoner might be bomb. I better not vote for him to shoot so that he isn't exposed :o)

Scum making a comment like this would wifoms town into keeping him off the shooting block. And if they are chosen to shoot/be shot they can claim bomb and be leik c i leik thats y i did nt wnt to anser tht cwestun erlier. Then town will shoot the counter claimer instead ^_^.

So let's sum this up. You are Not the bomb and Not cop. Which leaves two options for your role: Town with a lack of thinking capacity & Scum (Non-Godfather).

So what do we do to determine which of the two you are? Have you shoot of course n_n!

Vote

Shooter: Summoner
Shootee: Gova

July what happened to the vote counting :O???

Yo. Can you shoot Zen? Also, do you think the people who are for vote counting, can shoot?

1) Agreed that Summoner saying, that he can't say anything is really inferring that he has an opinion on it but is choosing not to say, in his own words "it could be used in speculation about (his) role", but that itself leads to speculation anyways.

Tbh Summoner is not one of the top two scum picks I have toDay, but he's very much in the fuzzy area of people who have posted but are still quite null, and I would be fine with him as shooter but not lynch target. BSL and Luxor are still my top scum picks, so I would really like

Shootee: BSL

I want to see Luxor's post tomorrow, as right now I think him and Summoner are both good options for shooter. Need sleep, then I will think about shooter more.

I agree, it has already been speculated anyways. The Pr's already clamied and are semi-cleared so far. So there would be no reason for him to hide this. Could there be a reason for a townie to want to hide their role in this setup?

Had you changed your vote from BSL since he claimed cop? Who did you vote again?

May I ask you to post the vote count again?

Oh, hey guys.

Is delv not against voting? I could've sworn he said he was.

Delv, gova, ryker and kuz are possible scum since theyre against the votingc, but I doubt all 3 are there.

And Luxor for backing down on voting support for whatever pseudomajority/plurality are for. It's kind of like my response to ryker's hypothetical situation where I didn't know what to do. I understand thatmine wasn't a good response, but IMO this is much worse.

Why does everyone keep ignoring me?

Being against voting ISN'T scummy.

I felt that Summoner didn't really give any insights early game, except for a quick comment about Sworddancer, he usually asked questions of others more than he offered his own insights.

However..



I'm going to assume that this is a claim. If this is correct, then I would have preferred that you waited until you were forced by the town to shoot someone.

What do you think of his 'claim' now that Ryker and BSL claimed pr's?

I would want to lean scum on July now. She seemed to agree that I should shoot instead of Zen. Yet if Zen isn't scum then that would be, confusing.

First thing wrong here is that bombs should never claim

I'm definitely intrigued by Kuz's play as well. Every game I've seen him in, he starts out energetic and jovial-seeming. Then again I've seen him in a couple of games and one of the times he was all smiley he was scum, but even so.

Yeah, doesn't matter now since Ryker claimed bomb. >_>

I'm not. So what if he has energy or not? How does that help with finding out if he is scum or not?

Are you saying that I've commited a scum tell, or are you just being sarcastic about the scumtell I used?

If you're just being sarcastic, think of it this way (and this goes out to everyone who doubts my scumread on Kuz): It shows that Kuz came into this game ready for a fight, but not ready to scumhunt.

@Clown: Please don't just dismiss my attack on Kuz as simple OMGUS. Yes I know I'm attacking him after he attacked me but I'm trying to be unbiased here about it and I'm legit getting scummy vibes from Kuz early posts.

@Smar: Backseat in the sense that you weren't really having your own conversations with anyone for awhile, instead you were just kind of commentating on other conversations. I saw you generally doing this in the 200-300 (maybe a litte less) range.

I don't think you commited a scumtell. Scumtells in this game should be more situational then normal games though.

How does that help find out if she is scum tho?

Smar =/= July

@_@

Haha you were scum in RG with Smarg, could this mean u scum? Nah jk.

That wouldn't net you as scum cuz smarg ain't here anyways. But maybe this could connect you with July tho.

This is a really interesting response, like...Summoner is definitely not null to me but I'm still not sure what to think about him.



BSL, you say Gova, Delvro, Ryker, and Kuz are all possible scum, Zen's point on Summoner is plausible, and Luxor is possible, yes? Who of Gova/Delvro/Ryker/Kuz (those against voting) do you find the most scummy and why?

So at this point he was town to you, since he wasn't null?

(Bandwagons are good btw, but we wont get into that).

2. Vote counts do force people to be held accountable for their reads. They force definite positions. If someone votes someone then they are going to have to be able to explain their reasoning. Just like in a normal game. You're basically saying that vote counts in all mafia games are dumb for this reason.
.

In a normal game, normal townies don't have guns. They do here. Vote counts aren't really needed in this setup.

Can you explain why bandwagons are good?

You never considered that scum could use votes to manipulate others who can shoot into shooting misshots. Can you shoot?

Zen, have you ever played with Luxor before? If so, is he going to remain obnoxious?

You are obnoxious yourself. Too bad, deal with it.

Luxor if I do something crazy this game like I did in Fire Emblem will you betray me again regardless of your initially strong vibes of me being town?

Well it seemed you let Beatstick follow you, who was scum. ;o I thought Beatstick/Luxor or one of them could have been scum for flipping on you after I replaced in.

How have you've come to the conclusion that I've dismissed anything? I have observed that it seems like you came into this game simply "ready for a fight" (from your attack on me). However, I did not in anyway shape or form say or imply that everything you've done is simply "looking for a fight."

@July:

Delvo's a cool guy.

His game though so far is lackluster. I honestly forogt he was in this game until you asked me for thoughts on him. I did a little ISO of him (he only has five posts, not to hard), and found that he has offered up some thoughts, but he hasn't really pursued his thoughts as much as I'll of like him to have. I expect better of him.

Need to see more from Delvo. Right now null slightly leaning scum.

Swords would you shoot Delvro because of his inactivity? He didn't declare V/la, nor did he replace out.

All: Did Delvro give his stances at all in Celeb?

Zen, I'm really beginning to think this day is going to end with me shooting you.

Nah. Zen should be shot, or July. I think if Zen flips scum, July could possibly be scum with him.

Gova is so anti-town right now I'd love to shoot him dead By continuing to rebel against a plan that the rest of us agree will bring at least marginally more stability to an unstable game, he divides opinions and hampers actual scum hunting because people keep focusing on arguing against him. Ignoring him will still leave him as anti-town because he doesn't seem to like co-operating with us, which is extremely frustrating as he could be town (not sure, he's pretty null to me right now). Wish I could slap him silly irl

*sigh*

At any rate, unless you are pursuing Gova as a scum read, I would please ask you all to direct your attention towards other matters. After reading this whole game it's pretty obvious that he won't be changing his stance because someone magically convinces him he is wrong; it's better to move on as best we can and try to focus on finding scum.

I don't think we all agree with the plan, herp derp. Although I disagree that voting is needed.

<_<

If you truly re-read my posts you would see I have been gunning for Sworddancer. almost every post after he bothered opening his mouth to spout nonsense at me.

Luxor is also scum because he has been playing a middle of the road type game that tries to make it seem as if he is actively contributing while not getting his hands dirty.

Do you think his scum buddies would let him do that?

First, what hes doing is not anti-town. Its the popular option and you perceive it as anti-town because you will receive less flak and more town points by agreeing with the option that a majority support.

Second, anti-town =/= scummy. Frankly, the ground which you state you want to shoot Gova with are bull**** and, if you think he is scummy enough to be shot, why are you dissuading others from focusing on him? Furthermore, why do you want to shoot him despite having a town read on him?

Sworddancer/Luxor/Vocal.

I agree that shooting Gova for that is dumb. I wouldn't shoot Gova. He isn't scummy.

sworddancer is scummier than kuz, imo.

Meh. They are null. But I'd take Swords over Kuz, ya. BSL I <3 U man. (no homo x10) Cmon. why u always think im scum. : D

Kuz: Gova is scum because he is taking a stance without reasoning. He was trying to be cool and stuff with his "vote counts are dumb" but ****ed up. I imagine he had it in his mind that disagreeing with the common opinion would make him look town who isn't afraid of anything when he made that post. But then he actually had to explain why. The thing is though, his reasons are bs. It's not a matter of different views in mechanics, it's a matter of logical reasoning. After making such a screw up, Gova had no choice but tobhold strong to his position. Scum often make the mistake that intransigency is a way to be town, when really it's a scumtell. Gova is arguing his position and against the points I have made against his irrational reasoning without any will to fold over and admit to being wrong. Not one thing. Even though I've shown that his points are invalid.

This, vocal and Kuz, is what makes Gova scum. Not the fact that his argument is the anti-town position, but for his refusal to see admit to fallicy when it is so clearly there.

Bull****. He isn't scum. It's not all about the common opinion. His first post about it seemed pretty logical. You are scum, why can't you shoot instead of me? Still want me to shoot?

Kirbyo is inactive everywhere. Request Prod/Replace

I am kinda worried for him. ;-;

To be fair I was equally lazy and equally scummy at the start of Day 1 in FE, lol. I'll have more time after I take my big chemistry test today, though.



Are you saying bombs should claim? Because they shouldn't- it's easy for scum to fakeclaim and then it gets messy. Maybe if we got every "bomb" to claim and had cops check them, but in any case bombs should never claim one at a time.

They should have, cuz then they would have been shot. (Like Ryker)

yeah. i wasnt able to tell if you were for or against the bomb claim. i thought you were for it, but it was a tad bit unclear.


not to address it.

i dont think bombs should claim. in fact, bomb claiming is something that should wait until "L-1" like anything else. if bomb doesnt claim, there's a chance that bomb gets NK'd, which would benefit town a lot.

if we have bomb claim now, then multiple people could claim bomb, and then how do we figure out who is telling the truth? investigate them one by one? it sets up for more chaos and confusion.

and of course, if bomb claims, then mafia will know who the bomb is and simply save them for the LYLO/MYLO or whatever it would be.

Yes! I agree. But Ryker claimed with NO pressure. How is that pro-town? If he is so good he would CLAIM to get me shot?

...Did we not just go over this? Bomb claiming is anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-town.

Nah. It's kinda like a double edged sword. Bomb shouldn't be known, but he still has to prevent people from shooting him. Yet Ryker wasn't in the situation in being shot. That is a bad bomb play I think.

Well ****, Luxor didn't give me the reaction I wanted. I'm not bomb. Thought he was.

Aren't you? :/

I don't really think Gova is scum. You're town. Ryker's town. July's town. Seph is probably town. Kirbyo is so null it hurts.

School now. Bbl.

No scumpicks in there. Just town and a null that really hurts.

Going against the majority is not anti-town! Typically, it's pro-town.

Speaking of pro-town:



This comment by itself makes me think Kuz is town.




Don't fish for the bomb. Or rather, if you do and you're town, don't tell the whole town who you think it is, please. =|

I'm still ok with Luxor getting shot.

Why did he do that as the bomb? Really? It is?

This game moves fast. )_)



Um, anyone else that's inactive I guess, lol.

Probably wouldn't want someone inactive lynched toDay, unless everyone else just somehow ends up null for awhile. Like, people who are truly inactive (as in not posting at all) really are just null themselves. Besides we don't have a deadline so we have an infinite amount time to decide so no rush right?

July are these questions going anywhere?

I think the points you bring up about BSL and Kuz are very interesting, especially considering that reading the thread after all this has happened you saw the same things Swords saw about Kuz from the beginning. One thing I would like to add to this: I re-read and have yet to see strong stances from Kuz about players (he took a very strong stance about voting).

@Kuz and Seph: What are your reads/scum picks?

I think Kuz/Zen/July are a scum team.

Can we shoot Luxor for being an unhelpful *******?

No. You want to shoot him because he was asking you questions. Stop being a *****. Go sing in the corner.

How am I being distracting and how is that worse than not being here at all?

You said I should be shot for being distracting, yet you yourself admit to being distracting. Survival much? Even though you are the bomb. ;o

Honestly I do have an idea based on the questions I've been asking and the interactions between everyone who I feel is town and who I feel is scum. I am very sure I want BSL to be the lynch target toDay, he is and has been my main scum pick for a while, and he's not getting any less scummy. I've also admitted that there are people I'm just having a hard time reading. Kirbyoshi is null due to inactivity. Gova's style of posting makes it hard for me to take away much from his posts other than dissent. Imo Ryker has been considering people scummy for not liking their play style, which is the feeling I get for why he's been flip-flopping on Zen.

And I've decided that I want this to happen:

Shooter: th3kuzinator

Can I ask why Kuz would be the shooter and not shootie?

I retract my stance of Swords over Kuz now. I retract my retraction of my earlier stance ON Kuz as well. You heard it here folks. I am re-evaluating my reads.

I am thinking Kuz is gf that is going against voting strongly, because he doesn't need to shoot.

Zen/July can't shoot, so they have to buddy each other.

Why is flip-flopping scummy?

In a game without votes, we can't tell if you shot a serious scum pick. Although you are the bomb so it doesn't matter for you. Just don't asplode k? : ]

Shoot him please. He doesn't ever shut the **** up. He is REALLY getting in the way.

I will talk if I like. Put it up your *** then.

PLEASE SHOOT HIM[/QUOTE]

Modkill me then.

Gee, then you don't seem like you want to play this game. Stop being a baby. Grow up. I talk, so what. Scenarios, big deal.

The thing with Ran is, he has it in his head that asking questions is the most pro-town thing you can possible do. Ever. In every situation.

Because of this, he asks every type of question imaginable, inconsequential or not. While asking questions is an important aspect of mafia, its not the end all.

Ran, you need to be able to parse through which areas of interest are worth focusing on and which aren't. There is not info to be learned by questioning the intent of every single post.

Now I personally find it annoying as hell too, but I can deal with it, as I am used to it. However, I will say this. There are questions posed from Ryker to specifically target a player or group of players that he wants specifics answers or lack of answers from. This will also create connections or lack of connections between players who come to defend and who simply ignore. The problem with what you're doing is you don't let that come to fruition and simply impose yourself into every conversation that is currently existing before the targeted player has time to respond. This effectively makes any other response corrupted, as they have a different avenue of conversation to talk about. Ya dig?

Now that was an extremely nice post, and I hope you can understand what I am saying from how I phrased it. Questions are good, but you don't need to fill the thread with questions that lead nowhere just because you want to contribute.





That said, I am going to read the last 7 pages or so now. With this game in the hands of Ryker, I've been getting lazy.

No I don't. I'm sure Zen has noticed it, but I tend to ask questions natuarally. So I'm sorry, I'm not trying to look pro-town by asking alot of questions. I just get a thought, and I then want to ask about it. I'm persistent and I follow up with my questions. I guess I just don't ask the right questions in mafia.

I know but I want to make a stand. I'm no sheep. Which questions did Ryker asked that I shouldn't have answered?

Correct. Is everyone doing it? They are not, therefore I see no need to waste my time with the democratic process. More likely that I didn't see it/didn't read it. I am sure it was full of "but if we want to know whos doing what, we need to vote on it." We do not need to implement a votecount system to make a group descicion. Does it make a difference whether we shoot a player 7 people find scummy rather than 8 people? No, it doesn't. One vote more or "hammer" does not make a difference "But Kuz, it does! If a majority wants someone dead then its justifiable." No I don't wanna hear that bull**** because 1.) not everyone supports the voting system which gives the game a voting demographic which may either be stupid/scum and 2.) the person being wagoned will likely quick shoot before they are lynched. And no, I don't want us to quickshoot them the next day, because if they simply ****ed up and are townie then we are already in deep **** as the GF just has to quickshoot D3.

Also I do trust scumhunting from other players more than others, you would be silly not to agree. Just look at how people are capitalizing on me this entire BiM for my entry post. Thats not scumhunting that just nitpicking my wording and sputing WIFOM that I was intentionally drawing attention to myself, which is also bull.

Well, I kinda did too. But I explained my thoughts about it above. I retracted my stance on you, but you are nuller than others. Get to posting more than just your defense bro.

I believe one of you and Zen is scum. I'm inclined to believe Zen is scum for trying to use that meta against you. Instead of looking at your own actions, he strongly tries to apply your actions from an old game. I think that is quite malicious.

Actually, I'm sorry. I take that back now. I think you have the possibility of being Grand Father. Or a goon, most likely gf. You are against voting, but if you have a gun, you don't need to vote. Of course gf's scumbuddies would elect the gf to shoot. (Do I ever let you breathe, Kuz? <3 man, just <3 )

I think Zen is a goon, who can't shoot. July as well. She responded pretty quickly

Then Zen says

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna shoot Gova.

He says he is willing to shoot Gova. Shooting would semi-clear him. and then says

Unless. Ryker, would you be good with Ran shooting Gova?

First, Zen says "Unless" as if a light came up in his head. Why did it come up? He should EXPLAIN why.

Poking at Ryker to see if he needs to shoot.Then Ryker still persists saying that he should because he wants him to be semi-cleared. If he doesn't have a gun, he is ****ed. Zen didn't respond quickly, then:

Now July comes in all (She came within 15 minutes after Zen responded to Ryker when Ryker insisted Zen shoot)

Honestly I would prefer Ran shoot, I think that Ryker is the only one who finds Zen suspicious.

If this does happen though, we need to figure out something about two of Kuz, Vocal, Ran and Luxor toMmorow

She also comes in preferring I shoot (To help her scumbuddy from being pressured into shooting, since he can't) , only because Ryker is the only person suspicious of Zen. I am suspicious of Zen.

"Ryker I will likely not even live past n2. The insurance that you need on my alignment will come in time. "

Why wait? I'd like to see you shoot. You are the pusher of the vote system, we'd like to see that it is legit.

I'm really sorry guys, I've simply been too busy to give this game the attention that it deserves. I've already told X1 that I'm replacing out. =(

I know you guys would love for me to grace you with my amazing deduction abilities, but I'm sure you can catch the scum without me!

(based on the first half of the game, I think Luxor was a good choice... dunno if he claimed or anything)

Good luck town!

Kk, that's good. Thanks.

Claiming not bomb.

Gova is town because the suspicion against him is silly and unjust, and his choice not to vote is a personal preference that shouldn't affect people's reads on him this much. Zen, your logic that I'm scum if he flips town is reaching to say the least. For that matter, people have been paying way too much attention to my town read on him. I don't know how long it's been since I've discussed something other than that (which is my fault too, of course).

I might be fine with Delvro going toDay, he's hardly done anything at all in this game let alone recently. I do agree with Ran that his play here is similar to his Celeb play but then you get into the WIFOM of whether he'd play the same scumgame in two games that were so close to each other... Eh...

Unvote BSL

I'm not set on who should be shot toDay. There are several people I'd prefer to be the shooter though: Luxor, Sword, Delvro, and ehhh maybe Summoner. I want to agree with July that if it'll help people's reads this much we can shoot Gova but I really think we could hit a better candidate, probably if we designated one of the above people as shootee. May be willing to go Kuz.

You mean you think there are scum on his "imaginary wagon"? Yeah. I'll agree with you then. Gova is town.

 

[ranmaru]

Yo, Ryker. I don't have a problem shooting Zen.

Could I hope to see some scumhunting on July and Kuz for me plz? : 3 I'll try to get out of your way if you can do that. U know, compromise. Only way we can get **** done in this town.

 

[Xivii]

O_o the hell

That's going to be such a pain to read.

 

[ranmaru]

Told you I would catch up.

 

[Clownbot]

Zen, humor me. Even if you won't stand for anyone other than Gova being shot toDay. Who's your #2 pick?

 

[Xivii]

Ran, do you think asking me if I can shoot is a beneficial question? What would you gain from me saying "yes"?

You think me and Kuz are scum mates yet I am calling him out on being gf and want him to die? And you do realize I am one of the few that is actually suspicious of July?

I don't understand how anyone can read through an entire game and not pick up the meaning of anything. It's like you have no sense of logic at all.

You said you read through the BIM3 QT. What did you get from that?

 

[Xivii]

Clown my #2 would be Kuz.

@Ran for now on when you have a thought, try thinking the opposite. That will likely be the correct thing.

And catching up doesn't mean responding to every dam post in the game. I told you this in FE.

 

[ranmaru]

Ran, do you think asking me if I can shoot is a beneficial question? What would you gain from me saying "yes"?

You think me and Kuz are scum mates yet I am calling him out on being gf and want him to die? And you do realize I am one of the few that is actually suspicious of July?

I don't understand how anyone can read through an entire game and not pick up the meaning of anything. It's like you have no sense of logic at all.

You said you read through the BIM3 QT. What did you get from that?

I want to pressure you on your ability to shoot. Why were you trying to weigh the options of voting instead of you shooting?

It's likely if you come up scum, July would be scum. (Because she came in and said that I would be a better shooter than you, as if to defend you from having to shoot)

I was just thinking Kuz as an indirect scum who can shoot. (And he is against voting, what else would that attention getter post be for?) Plus Kuz is posting little to avoid attention. Someone pointed out that he was strongly against voting, yet wasn't really scumhunting.

Zen, I'd like to see you shoot your scumpicks, not anyone else. Also, I don't think Gova should be shot at all.

You said July was town, right?

 

[Xivii]

Posting to get off this page.

 

[ranmaru]

Clown my #2 would be Kuz.

@Ran for now on when you have a thought, try thinking the opposite. That will likely be the correct thing.

And catching up doesn't mean responding to every dam post in the game. I told you this in FE.

Ok, what is the opposite of what I am thinking, Zen?

Do you acknowledge that scum would benefit from a voting system? (since 2/3 of them can't shoot, why not elect others to shoot else where?)

I'm sorry. I just don't feel like I am committed to the game without doing that. I feel imcomplete.

Could I see you shoot Kuz instead? I'd feel alot better about you if you could.