ATTENTION! You are all UNSAFE on the ledge

[Clai]

We all know we can't edgehog the same way as we can in Melee: using the roll animation when the opposing character uses a recovery technique to avoid getting hit and letting the recovering character fall to its doom. Now, not only are we unfortunate enough not to have the roll animation count as still being on the ledge, but the roll animation, standing animation, any animation from the ledge is dangerous and punishable.

WHY THIS ISN'T WAITING FOR LEDGE INVULNERABILITY FRAMES TO RUN OUT AND ATTACKING THEN:

• You can see the animations of the character attempting to move back to the stage.

• The moves I used to research this was shorthopped, autocanceled aerials, something I could not do if the character was properly on the ledge

So the gist of this thread is: characters hanging on the ledge can get hit out of the beginning frames of their animation. Even worse, a well-timed spike can send someone trying to roll onto the stage off the stage and right down into oblivion. I've had experiences with standing animation, rolling animation, and ledge attack animation, time the spike correctly, and they're all going down before they can be considered "on the stage."

Implications:

• Characters that can walk off the stage, attack, and move back to the stage (Wario and Jigglypuff being the prime examples) can catch an opponent in these animations and then attempt to chase them off the stage. If the move fails, they can just move back on the stage and shield, all of this going on in less than a second.

• MINDGAMES! Not only does someone on the ledge have to worry about getting sniped while trying to get back, but the persuing character can fake aerials, empty shorthop on the ledge, and move off the stage and catch somebody on the ledge when the invulnerability frames run out.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtrHdz8Lq2s

Conclustion: The ledge is unsafe!

 

[nightSN]

funny cause i use the ledge for defensive purposes.

 

[Clai]

^^^^^

Like what? You use the ledge for a defensive purpose, then you have to worry about getting back to the stage after you hang onto the ledge. That's the purpose of my thread.

 

[DanGR]

for pit, it can be beneficial to stay on the ledge. he has so many options once he's there.

 

[ndayday]

Isn't any part of the stage unsafe if you're facing a good player? Ok but seriously, you have a good point, I've spiked people when they've tried to roll onto the edge, and so the ledge IS very unsafe...all the reasons you gave are good reasons as well, but now we just need ways to not let the ledge be dangerous...

 

[Aminar]

I'm pretty sure this has always been true. Thats why you have to trick your opponent. You need to be unpredictable to get back up. It could be worse.

 

[KernelColonel]

Shine spike still exists

 

[Brahma]

The ledge is very dangerout to camp if you get predictable. All options can be punished, that's why you have to mix it up. If someone keeps attack you in your roll/getup animation, ledgehop an airdodge to get back on the stage. Or use jump from the ledge.

 

[Tristan_win]

The ledge is my home and I feel I'm in no danger when I'm there.

Everyone just need to step up their edge game.

 

[Saltix]

The ledge is my home and I feel I'm in no danger when I'm there.

Everyone just need to step up their edge game.

same.
QFT.

 

[Jewdo]

**edit: Wow, I'm sleepy. I completely missed this -

Now, not only are we unfortunate enough not to have the roll animation count as still being on the ledge, but the roll animation, standing animation, any animation from the ledge is dangerous and punishable.

.... a well-timed spike can send someone trying to roll onto the stage off the stage and right down into oblivion. I've had experiences with standing animation, rolling animation, and ledge attack animation, time the spike correctly, and they're all going down before they can be considered "on the stage."

Conclusions (revised):

1) Edge-hog via roll is even less effective than we thought. Granted, Edge Roll sucks already, but even a minor change in a move is still a change.

2) Ledge-hang is now a death sentence.

3) Forcing ledge-hang is now a strong kill set-up. If you can kill a ledge hanger no matter what their recovery choice, then forcing a ledge-hang means you can force a kill.

Pretty big discovery, one that will haunt the meta-game for awhile.

Pro Tip - If you doubt you can time a spike to hit during this small vulnerable opening, hovering an attack with a long duration over their character will practically guarantee damage instead. e.g. DeDeDe's D-air, Pikachu's Thunder, Meta's Mach Tornado.

 

[soroush123]

Well, whenever I mess around with Gannon, his ACed Dair is amazing at doing this. I've done it plenty of times (especially V comps) but even though it's essentially a kill, it only works if you can predict WHEN the person is getting back on. We're talking frames here, hardly enough time to react, jump and arieal, unless you have AMAZING reflexes. Esssentially, if you can predict your opponent, you've got a kill, otherwise, you could go for a weaker hit. The guy on the ledge just has to know what to do. Alot have great moves that swat people away from the ledge without getting back on the stage. For example, DDD can Fair through the stage to swat away nearby people and get on quickly, and MK can UpB to an even greater effect. Characters such as Snake, who have no such option (I've only found Fair even to be capable of putting him back on the level, and Fair=LAG), they just have to be unpredictable. Drop down, jump up, wait for a while, then roll, whatever your opponent doesn't see coming. It's a natural in ANY situation that the guy on the ledge would be in a disadvantage, even in real life (well, more likely in movies). If a guy's hanging on the ledge, the guy standing above him has alot more options than he does, but if you've ever seen 007 or Indy, you'd know just how possible it is to get up from a ledge and turn things around.

 

[Kitamerby]

Didn't Sakurai say that you get extra invincibility on your roll if you roll just as you grab the ledge?

 

[The Real Inferno]

On the same note: Game and Watch spikes characters hanging from the edge when delivering his dash attack to the edge.

 

[Empy]

Didn't Sakurai say that you get extra invincibility on your roll if you roll just as you grab the ledge?

How would he know. It's not like anything else he said has been true.

Also, just jump and airdodge.

 

[Kitamerby]

How would he know. It's not like anything else he said has been true.

Also, just jump and airdodge.

Mario's in Brawl, isn't he?

 

[Azzizaz]

If you want to see this for yourself, play Ness versus a computer DDD (any character is fine, but I find that the computer DDD is quite easy to hit when he's coming back on from the ledge). And when he's hanging from the ledge, try to time it so that your dair spike lands right when he's getting up. Since it's the computer, it's predictable when he'll get up.

Although it won't be as easy versus a human player, it's still possible and can give you an easy lead. This works really well with Ness since his spike has such a long stun time that it's hard to recover even at very low percentages.

 

[Clai]

I put up the video explaining it all. It's on the first post.

Jumping and airdodging, just hope the other person doesn't see it coming and smashes you off the stage when you land. The ledge is a dangerous place.

 

[Apollo317]

I agree that the ledge is very dangerous. Your opponent has so fewer options than normal, all of which are punishable, giving you a huge advantage. Also, I think that Pits meteor just got a lot better, it comes out so fast and you don't have to jump... I bet you could react to their get up rather then have to predict. Must test this...

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

did not know kirby could do that! Can any otheres do that as well, Chai?

 

[Crizthakidd]

the ledge isnt safe. unless ur MK >=O haha


but yea theres a little time frame where u can spike ur opponents when coming back.

 

[Zankoku]

This is nothing new. You had vulnerability frames at the same points in Melee, as well.

 

[kupo15]

So the ledge is unsafe, yet the game forces you to grab it without your permission via the "magnets" they placed on them. Good job Nintendo. I wish they made a ledge actually feel like a ledge and not a force field

 

[doodmahn]

G&W has a GREAT edge game, so I don't have to worry.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

did not know kirby could do that! Can any otheres do that as well, Chai?

Do you mean drillspikes?

 

[Crystanium]

Lucas' d-smash is also dangerous for the person coming back up from the edge.

 

[tEhrXXz0r]

While it is true the ledge is unsafe, you can still get around it. For example, Snake can drop DOWN from the ledge and cypher above the opponent. If the opponent tries to attack Snake in his cypher, air dodge out of the cypher or time a well-placed aerial and knock the guy away.

Pikachu can also drop down from the ledge and QAC back to the stage, giving Pikachu a nice opening for an approach.

 

[Crystanium]

While it is true the ledge is unsafe, you can still get around it. For example, Snake can drop DOWN from the ledge and cypher above the opponent. If the opponent tries to attack Snake in his cypher, air dodge out of the cypher or time a well-placed aerial and knock the guy away.

Pikachu can also drop down from the ledge and QAC back to the stage, giving Pikachu a nice opening for an approach.

Whenever I see Snake use his Cypher, I translate that as, "I'm a free target. Please defeat me." Will you explain how Snake can perform his Up+B, air-dodge out of it and make it safely onto the stage? Once the Cypher is used, Snake no longer has any recovery unless he lands onto the stage or grabs the edge again.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Whenever I see Snake use his Cypher, I translate that as, "I'm a free target. Please defeat me." Will you explain how Snake can perform his Up+B, air-dodge out of it and make it safely onto the stage? Once the Cypher is used, Snake no longer has any recovery unless he lands onto the stage or grabs the edge again.

Or uses C4 on himself.

 

[Jewdo]

Jumping and airdodging, just hope the other person doesn't see it coming and smashes you off the stage when you land. The ledge is a dangerous place.

If the problem is vulnerability during the opening frames of the animation, jump>air-dodge is not a solution. Air dodges also have vulnerability frames at the beginning of the animation.

This is nothing new. You had vulnerability frames at the same points in Melee, as well.

After having watched the video, this DOES look familiar*. The difference (if I'm not imagining it) is that Brawl's vulnerability period starts at frame 1 and is longer, and the area you need to hit to spike-kill is a little wider. Maybe something that wasn't too powerful in Melee is now powerful in Brawl? *shrugs* We'll see.

*edit: the "jump get-up" from Melee had a few post-invincibility vulnerable frames before you could use aerial attacks, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Magus420]

All ledge getups had invincibility starting on frame 1 in Melee.

 

[tEhrXXz0r]

Whenever I see Snake use his Cypher, I translate that as, "I'm a free target. Please defeat me." Will you explain how Snake can perform his Up+B, air-dodge out of it and make it safely onto the stage? Once the Cypher is used, Snake no longer has any recovery unless he lands onto the stage or grabs the edge again.

Snake can use nair out of cypher. Nair is an amazing defensive attack, and an offensive powerhouse. The opponent will either be too scared to approach, leaving Snake back on the stage once again. If the opponent goes for the offense while Snake is in his cypher, Snake will nair and knockback the character, assuming the last hit of nair connects (it most likely will).

 

[Crystanium]

Or uses C4 on himself.

If Snake decides to do that, he'd better hope that no one jumps out there and takes the C4 and gets back on the edge. (Does anyone remember the CPU R.O.B. and human player Snake incident?)

 

[Zankoku]

All ledge getups had invincibility starting on frame 1 in Melee.

My mistake. In Melee, I thought there was a period of vulnerability both before rolling up and after, but after reviewing SDM Archive, I suppose I was wrong.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, so I just want to make sure I understand what's going on here. When you grab the ledge, the attack and roll recovery animations have slight vulnerable frames at the beginning, allowing an edgeguarder to hit the opponent while he/she is getting back to the stage?

Is this supposed to be a bad thing, because I can't really tell from the course of the thread.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think its a good thing somewhat, *Fsmashes a Donkey Kong as they roll back onto the ledge* BOOOYAH!

 

[tEhrXXz0r]

Ok, so I just want to make sure I understand what's going on here. When you grab the ledge, the attack and roll recovery animations have slight vulnerable frames at the beginning, allowing an edgeguarder to hit the opponent while he/she is getting back to the stage?

Is this supposed to be a bad thing, because I can't really tell from the course of the thread.

Depends. If you play a character that has the ability to spike, good. If your opponent is playing a character that can spike but you cannot, just watch out for it.

 

[Mikezor]

My mistake. In Melee, I thought there was a period of vulnerability both before rolling up and after, but after reviewing SDM Archive, I suppose I was wrong.

I don't think you could spike people off the stage from their get up animations in Melee either. Am I wrong?

 

[Megavitamins]

It still counts as you being on the ledge when you roll... It's just the roll animation got shortened by so much. Here's proof: Get yourself 100% or over. All of your ledge animations change, and the roll animation now takes MUCH longer. You can now edge hog people the exact same way you did in Melee.

 

[3transfat]

It is fun to imagine the look on people's faces when I use Toon Link and spike them like this.