At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[Andarel]

Yeah, makes sense. Still prefer his old one, but that might change eventually - not really used to the new one yet. Mind you, I'm a fan of a mix between bread-and-butter and tech-chased combos and the GSH sets swing more towards the latter, so that's probably part of why (playing a mediocre fighting game whose main drawing point is an insane roster and snazzy-looking (and ridiculously effective) BnB combos will do that to you v___v).

I gotcha though. Good enough reason for me, gonna have to test it out more to get a feel for how well it works in my book.

EDIT: Yeah, I know the Ivysaur dair removal was accidental. As a frequent Ivy player I'm still allowed to whine about it though Was soooo good.

 

[ValTroX]

Cape, I was thinking that when a projectile hits a downed opponent, it should force a get up(now that i read about TL). Sorry to bring Melee to the table but it's the best example i got: In melee, i mained Mario, his fireballs were awesome back then for the fact that they force getups and when an opponent missed a tech and i wasn't on hitting range, that staring game of trying to read your opponent next move and try to not get read began. I usually would dash and SHFireball, if he rolled towards me, I would Dsmash and punish him, if he stayed on the same spot, the fireball would hit and i would follow with a Fsmash(best combo ever xD)and if he rolled back, the fireball would still hit. This was especially effective in edges, since people have to roll towards you because if they don't they stay almost in the same place. I think this is a good mechanic on the game because it forces you to learn to tech better, and if you don't, you'll probably get punished, and since almost all of the cast have projectiles, it's a good adition.
Edit: Btw, it was a slow getup, I can't wait to test the set with my buddys I'll bring you some feedback when i do

 

[Andarel]

My first thought on reading that was "That would make Pit's arrows so sexy". On second thought, not really sure but it still seems like it makes Pit's arrows amazing.

Might be wrong, though. =\

 

[ValTroX]

My first thought on reading that was "That would make Pit's arrows so sexy". On second thought, not really sure but it still seems like it makes Pit's arrows amazing.

Might be wrong, though. =\

Well, the point of my post is to give weak projectiles a little more dept.

 

[omegablackmage]

zaf, these moves that force a getup are usually called 'jab resets' (in melee i think primarily jabs caused it) and were discovered/used a lot later in the melee days. This is how jigglypuff can jab someone after a missed tech and simply rest them after getting up. An excellent way to punish someone for not teching, there are a lot of examples in this game, finding them will certainly help characters in landing hard hitting attacks. Although in the zair case (not sure if its changed like you said), Im not even sure if then can tech. I had been using in this string: zair -> dash attack -> semi-charged dsmash. That would usually get them off the stage for a guard.

edit: woops didn't see valtrox's post

 

[Deleted member]

After testing out Samus's bombs explosion on contact as a GTFO move, I couldnt jump out of the morph ball after the explosion occurred. Is there a certain frame which to jump out of or is it impossible?

 

[The Cape]

At this point I am debating if I should keep the Zair as a "**** slap" kind of move thats good for jab resets and setting up for quick moves.

Or if it should tumble and force a tech.

I know what will definetly not happen though, and thats going back to the RC1 zair where zair to U smash (spaced right on zair) was unavoidable

 

[omegablackmage]

i suppose its only fair that if you were to add it back, that they should be able to at least be given the chance to tech the zair. Otherwise your looking at very damaging, guaranteed combos that lead directly from zair hits, which is a bit too frequent.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

I miss custom stages

 

[ValTroX]

Cape, I was thinking that when a projectile hits a downed opponent, it should force a get up(now that i read about TL). Sorry to bring Melee to the table but it's the best example i got: In melee, i mained Mario, his fireballs were awesome back then for the fact that they force getups and when an opponent missed a tech and i wasn't on hitting range, that staring game of trying to read your opponent next move and try to not get read began. I usually would dash and SHFireball, if he rolled towards me, I would Dsmash and punish him, if he stayed on the same spot, the fireball would hit and i would follow with a Fsmash(best combo ever xD)and if he rolled back, the fireball would still hit. This was especially effective in edges, since people have to roll towards you because if they don't they stay almost in the same place. I think this is a good mechanic on the game because it forces you to learn to tech better, and if you don't, you'll probably get punished, and since almost all of the cast have projectiles, it's a good adition.
Edit: Btw, it was a slow getup, I can't wait to test the set with my buddys I'll bring you some feedback when i do

I guess i got ignored

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I miss custom stages

then remove the code from the codeset.


So, I've been messing around with Squirtle, and I see you've fixed his fair (FINALLY.) I think it might have a little more endlag now (?) but it's so much better than the ****y startup change it had before. And is it just me, or are his uair and bair slower? O_o Also, his gravity just seems different...not sure what it is.....

 

[The Cape]

I dont even know what that post is asking for.

If its for mario fireballs to be like jab resets than that already exists.

 

[VietGeek]

alright thanks for the info on both viet.

what do you think of arrow hitstun? Should it be left low since toon link already has 2 other projectiles with good hitstun?


ive been playing more this morning, and i have been noticing a change in toon links zair now.

There are instances were i zair my brother, and rather then get sent to the ground, his character looks like they just jump back. Also, if he short hops and i hit him with the zair before anything he does anything it just pushes him back a little rather then send him to the ground as well

if this was changed so that it doesnt always send to the ground, makes this move useless since there isnt anything to follow up with, the move depends all on the tech

It's because the move doesn't send to tumble, so forced techs usually only appear on the heavier portion of the cast (if at that even).

At this point I am debating if I should keep the Zair as a "**** slap" kind of move thats good for jab resets and setting up for quick moves.

Or if it should tumble and force a tech.

I know what will definetly not happen though, and thats going back to the RC1 zair where zair to U smash (spaced right on zair) was unavoidable

Well it all depends on what mentality you want to use. If it's the former you want, then you would/we would (?) have achieved having a unique Zair for each of the zair characters (Link: free combos into potential kills [Usmash], Samus: pure spacer, GTFO, Lucas: tech chase, TL: small combos into potential jab resets (thus into potential kills).

Also since jab reset are really dependent on the input of the foe (the failure to tech specifically), it's still within the realm of not ridiculous, which seems to be the cool sauce we men strive for.

 

[The Cape]

So its either the tech chase one you have now, or the one I developed to test out.

It has fixed KB, 30 angle, always tumbles.

The thing is a monster off stage and forces techs on stage.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Ganon's current D throw change actually suppliments his sideB game perfectly as he can punish with a grab from block or on a missed move and put the opponent on the ground (techable) to set up for his tech chases with sideBs or dairs or fairs. What it does is give a "close range" option to the sideB tech chases and further assist his game in those aspects.

Make sense?

Definitely a great addition to his game indeed. It seems to me that the frame advantage from D-throw is higher than that of side-B, making dash attack after D throw a valid option (you either hit them or get away in most cases). Not sure if that's actually the case though, I tried to test that further in Training Mode but I suck at dual controller wielding.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Hey guys... me again.

First of all, on the whole drama front, personally I think a good portion of you need to get off Cape's ***. He can be abrasive, but we are brawl players, we ALL can be abrasive. Case in point, your mother was a *****.

The fact of the matter is, without accounting for personality. Cape has always been responsive. Case and point, Squirtles F-air. If Cape REALLY was just making this set the way he thought was best, we still would have had the ****ty slow F-air that we all had a pretty bad reaction to. Now, we don't, and most people are fine with it. *Thumbs*

Ok, that being said, I brought B+ down to a get together in South Jersey today, Had a small sixteen person tournament. Winner played Shiek, loser playes Samus. Didn't get as much feeback as I would have liked, but I suppose that is a good thing. Most people simply said "I like it and see no problems with it". Got a couple complaints about Gannon's D-throw. The most common was a complaint that the move assumes a particular type of playstyle. A gannon player said you could pretty much just let the move put you on the ground and neglect teching to avoid most followups. I haven't particularly seen this reliably, but food for thought. Another complain we got was about pit's arrows. It was a link V pit match and link was at about 97 life. piut started arrow spamming and for some reason link was unable to get out of it. Fastfalling didn't work, blocking didn't work, jumping out didn't work, the arrows kept him in hitstun just long enough to get past 300 damage. This obviously wasn't a gameplay choice, it was a bug and it has been hard to recreate but I thought I would give you a heads up.

Speaking of bugs... my friend recently set his wii up for B+ and since he has a mac he used the homebrew updatifier to get the most recent beta. Problem is though, some stuff didn't seem to go through. For example, Gannnon's D-throw still bounced you up rather than simply slamming you down, and I don't think G&W's throw reworks were implemented. I had to use my SD card instead, which I had updated at home via the windows nightly.exe. When I got home I ran the windows updater to see if things had changed when I was away but it wasn't. Any idea why teh updatifier didn't give a fully working codeset?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

So Cape got around to coding my proposed shine change. IASA to 38 and no angle change. But let me tell you guys that it works beautifully. He's gonna hand it over to Shanus, who will fix the no JC in air problem.

I think the people who hated the first incarnation of this shine will be pleasantly surprised

Also whatchu guys talking about for Ivy's dair? Works just like it did before.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Any chance that the Ivy problem and my Gannon D-throw problems stem from the same error horse?

 

[Veril]

@RPG: that actually can't be done with Ganon's d-throw because of how the tech window works... without making it absolutely ridiculous. Remember when we tried to make the side-b untechable... I guess it could be made to work like Snake's d-throw, but with Ganon's insane chasing options, I'm not sure that's a good idea (Ganon is one of the 4 characters I use competitively btw).

@Whoever said d-throw has a better frame advantage than side-b: The difference is negligible, and I think side-b is actually slightly better assuming the opponent techs and almost definitely better if they don't tech.

 

[The Cape]

Any chance that the Ivy problem and my Gannon D-throw problems stem from the same error horse?

Most likely. I never use the updatifier myself. I DL the .pacs and install them directly.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

@Veril: Nonono you misunderstand me. He wasn't saying that you should make the move untechable. He said that if you simply don't tech the move, and simply roll or otherwise move out of a lying down state instead, most of gannon's followups whiff.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Any chance that the Ivy problem and my Gannon D-throw problems stem from the same error horse?

Just sounds like the right .pac files weren't downloaded. I remember it happened to me too when we were trying Ganon's utilt IASA cancel in a nightly (the Ganon .pac never downloaded), and even happened to me in tourney (someone's Falco .pac didn't download correctly, so the shine was literally vBrawl shine. I think it was Dawgbowl iirc).

Add the problem .pacs manually and I don't think there'll be any problems.

 

[Foo_]

What exactly is changed about Charizard's fair? I thought there was no longer any sweetspot, but one time I hit with what seemed like the bottom tip of the flame and it had massive knockback. Any official info here?

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Right, well that was an easy enough solution. Also for the record, the windows updater works just fine.

 

[kirox777]

can you make 2 adjustments. its fun but i think marth should keep his 2 forward airs in a short hop. and can you make fox's up throw lower its too high. what i mean is i know its not tryna be a melee 2.0 but. make it have more combos like melee has.. i look at melee matches on youtube and i want to do combos like that but the codes sets prevent them, you can do combos yea but i just want them to be a lil longer. i love gsh2 tho its very fun

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to post this one more time - can we play with the friction in this game? It's so slippery. 64 and Melee have a full sense of control. I don't feel the same with Brawl+.

 

[VietGeek]

There was an idea thrown about a few days after GSH1 to play with the friction of all characters that do not benefit from Dash attack canceled techs.

So anyone but: Jiggs, Wario, Wolf, Snake, Sheik, Falco, possibly Ike (dash-canceled item tosses) are candidates?

With shorthop peaks being sped up, full hops look somewhat awkward. Unfortunately it seems both actions interlink...so speeding both up may conflict or something of that nature. =<

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm going to post this one more time - can we play with the friction in this game? It's so slippery. 64 and Melee have a full sense of control. I don't feel the same with Brawl+.

Who specifically are you talking about? A few characters (Falcon for example) had friction added a few patches ago. Falcon was the only major problem I had with friction. Luigi still slides all over but that is his thing.

 

[Veril]

I really don't want to see the friction changed on Lucas or Jiggs. Its a completely unnecessary change and I love the physics of them both atm. In general I don't want any more physics changes, especially ones that are purely subjective like this.

So anyone but: Jiggs, Wario, Wolf, Snake, Sheik, Falco, possibly Ike (dash-canceled item tosses) are candidates?

Don't forget Sonic and Link.

i want to do combos like that but the codes sets prevent them, you can do combos yea but i just want them to be a lil longer.

There are a ton of combos. Trust me. The timing for executing some of them is really tight (this is a good thing), but it doesn't help that training mode doesn't have a variable buffer.

What exactly is changed about Charizard's fair? I thought there was no longer any sweetspot, but one time I hit with what seemed like the bottom tip of the flame and it had massive knockback. Any official info here?

KB on that move was lowered in general, and its autocancel point occurs later.

 

[Deleted member]

Who specifically are you talking about? A few characters (Falcon for example) had friction added a few patches ago. Falcon was the only major problem I had with friction. Luigi still slides all over but that is his thing.

Really? Because I felt it was worst with Falcon. Still have the weird feeling from him.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Leave the friction alone, especially on Falcon. Everything is fine as is . XD

 

[Thunderhorse+]

its fun but i think marth should keep his 2 forward airs in a short hop.

It's been explained why Marth's SHDF was taken away and why it's not coming back. In fact, it's been the single most explained change in the thread. Look near the beginning portion of the thread.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the set though.

 

[Dan_X]

So Cape got around to coding my proposed shine change. IASA to 38 and no angle change. But let me tell you guys that it works beautifully. He's gonna hand it over to Shanus, who will fix the no JC in air problem.

I think the people who hated the first incarnation of this shine will be pleasantly surprised

Also whatchu guys talking about for Ivy's dair? Works just like it did before.

sounds great TH! Thanks for helpin to streamline this change! I can't wait to try it!

 

[Veril]

Orca, I'm gonna be up in Boston later this week (the 22nd I think). I'll be with family but might have some extra time if you wanted to meet up somewhere.

Leave the friction alone

This.

 

[Frogles]

im not getting what the problem is with ivy dair either. it seemed just fine to me. what exactly is wrong with it?

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Yeah, honestly, I've seen a LOT of people play both betas and RC1. No one has ever said anything about friction, whether pro, newbie, or somehwere in between. Falcon and a couple other characters feel "loose" but that is a good feeling. It further differentiates them from other characters. Without any sort of wave dashing/landing, larger friction differences add depth to the game.

 

[VietGeek]

"Depth"

...<_<

Spoiler

there is obv an implied meaning to this post

 

[The Cape]

Dude, Viet's post has depth and hidden meaning.

OHHHHH Butterfree!

 

[Veril]

Way to completely fail to respond to RPG and all of the other people (like me) who don't want friction changed.

Edit: nevermind. Butterfree

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Blast you Viet. Your post makes me feel like a failure because I don't understand it...But hurray for Butterfree! XD

Edit: Wait..."Butterfree"? Oooo. I get it now. :3