Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Kimimaru]

Usually you want to have the opponent in a bad situation where they're in the air and you can attack them if they do nothing, but if they attack you you can still retaliate because of the armor.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1ZSl7BtGU&t=5m57s

In other cases you can do it on reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1ZSl7BtGU&t=6m38s

It's harder to do this to Marth since he can outspace your aerials with his disjointed hitboxes, but I have seen aMSa do what you're looking for in neutral against a Marth player and unfortunately don't remember the video. I remember it was on his channel, though.

 

[Purpletuce]

I really wouldn't call it optimal in neutral, unless you mess up in neutral and get in a situation you don't want to be in. You have better tools that don't require you to take damage, so I'd only intentionally use the double jump armor to counter attack when you need to.

 

[kofinater]

@ Peanutphobia , you were asking about doc, here's a game a took from velocity this weekend. I don't really think either of us were playing particularly well but here it is http://www.twitch.tv/westchestersmash/b/662036229?t=5h47m10s. I actuaally almost didnt make it out of pools this tourney, playing right after work is a bit rougher than i thought haha. Ended up playing ok in bracket so i guess it worked out. I might end up driving to xanadu if i ever get off on a Wednesday.

 

[kofinater]

Reading through the threads and was wondering, does aMSa really do that much worse in japan? Obviously he gets the MU inexperience boost OOR and has tough matches in region which i think is the double edge sword of low/mid tiers but in the same vein to my knowledge there isnt anyone who outright shuts him down and he still takes sets , also Flash and Gucci have some pretty good american results. I know amsa did really bad at the one tourney a month or 2 ago but he's had some really awful american showings in CEO and MLG. aMSa had a pretty nice bracket at Apex having KK and Fly who i expected him to beat cause of how well he's been at the MUs historically then having foxes, which are prone to getting comboed and dieing in nearly every matchup. SFAT also played like super garbage. aMSa to my knowledge also played 0 notable peaches(I sincerely think him 2-0ing MacD was more impressive then beating M2K, I'm pretty garbage at that MU and have no idea how he makes it work)

Tl:Dr I think people make it out to seem like amsa is placing like last in Japan when in reality he places mostly top5 and the Japanese players are not that much worse to the point that its surprising aMSa drops sets. Yoshi is a really volatile character imo and a slightly different bracket at Apex could have put amsa at a quite 17th

 

[Peanutphobia]

@ Peanutphobia , you were asking about doc, here's a game a took from velocity this weekend. I don't really think either of us were playing particularly well but here it is http://www.twitch.tv/westchestersmash/b/662036229?t=5h47m10s. I actuaally almost didnt make it out of pools this tourney, playing right after work is a bit rougher than i thought haha. Ended up playing ok in bracket so i guess it worked out. I might end up driving to xanadu if i ever get off on a Wednesday.

Thanks, nice set! Also, I'll probably end up going to most xanadu Wednesdays so I hope to see you there. I might be able to come up to PA/NJ sometime over the summer too.

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't think anyone says aMSa does poorly in Japan in general, but comparatively he does poorly. Getting 5th at Apex and and getting anything other than 1st at Japan tournaments is a huge difference in results.

 

[Comet7]

would it be possible for fox to punish yoshi's shield drop up air with a shield drop aerial of his own?

 

[kofinater]

yes, but i wanna say earliest shield drop uair should always connect. that said if the fox spaces his aerial so you have to drift or dj to catch him, then he should have time to put up sheild

 

[kofinater]

I just wanna say. Yellow yoshi might be my current favorite color. As some of you may know, I'm a color counter picker and play all the colors But yellow has a lot going for it.
-I play 4th port so his shoes match the logo color.
-His shoes also match his egg color which unfortunately doesnt change in melee.
-Yellow and Green is lemon lime which is always good.
Basically Yellow/Green theme is very consistent throughout. So if i'm playing on stream with port 4 im going to start as yellow.
Similarly if I'm port 1 I'll start as green so his shoes match the logo

 

[Icyo]

Has anyone used DJ -> Autocancel dair as a mixup in a match? I feel it can be used sort of like a tomahawk and force the opponent into an option that puts them in a bad spot.

 

[Purpletuce]

DJ -> Dair can be reworded as 'take a huge risk then protect is as weakly as I possibly can'. Pretty much just asking to lose your DJ and die.

If you want to have a tomahawk that accomplishes nothing except act as a bait, FH Dair will autocancel. If you want a useful AC, SH Bair. If you want a safe mixup using DJ, go above them then DJC Nair in a way that the strong spot faces them, and you are high up enough that you can land decently far (shoutout to Kimimaru).

 

[Dinowulf]

Has anyone used DJ -> Autocancel dair as a mixup in a match? I feel it can be used sort of like a tomahawk and force the opponent into an option that puts them in a bad spot.

I've been trying this ever since the trials came out. it's kinda good sometimes.

 

[kofinater]

Any advice on getting consistent empty pivots? I want to add pivot tilts to my repertoire but getting them to a reliable level is escaping me. Particularly Pivot forward tilt seems super useful in absence of a reasonable pivot grab.

 

[deeseejay]

Can anyone give advice on general parry timings?

I've got parrying the actual attacks down but the timing of trying to respond with a DJC nair or upair seems realllllllly hard.

Anyone got any tips?

 

[Icyo]

Can anyone give advice on general parry timings?

I've got parrying the actual attacks down but the timing of trying to respond with a DJC nair or upair seems realllllllly hard.

Anyone got any tips?

You can practice doing it without actually parrying an attack.

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't know if it helps or makes things harder, but I try to not think or the follow-ups and the parry separate, but more as one unit. Since the parry is so fast, you really don't have time to do the parry then think about what kind of thing you want to do out of it...

So if I think Falco is going to laser, I try to parry -> WD, which is muscle memory. If I think falcon is going to stomp, I parry -> DJC Nair, etc. I have my follow up kind of 'built-in' to my plan to parry.

One downside to this approach is I've had to learn my follow-ups individually, and there are some options I just never do because of this. For example, I never parry -> Usmash, even though I know there are situations where it would be amazing, I just don't have the feel for it yet.

 

[ABAP Kidney]

Hey everyone, an odd general question to all you Yoshi players: How do you all hold your controllers? I've been holding it in the traditional way for a long time now, but right now I can't for the life of me perform the retreating djc stuff fast enough without the claw grip. A part of me would rather not try and adapt to such a different style, but if other good Yoshi players have found it makes a difference than I'm in.

 

[Kimimaru]

I hold my controller the traditional way. Personally I wouldn't change the way I hold it to implement minor tech like that, but do what works for you. If you don't want to switch, simply keep practicing retreating DJC moves with the traditional method.

 

[ABAP Kidney]

Okay, that's honestly a huge relief.

Okay, a second question that's for you specifically: A couple BAMs ago I saw you playing in teams with... I think it was Arcadia but I'm not totally sure? Either way whenever I try to play teams with Yoshi I end up doing terribly, I'm wondering if you have any advice for team play that is geared towards the Yoshi skillset?

 

[Kimimaru]

Yeah, I teamed with Arcadia. We actually had a pretty decent run that tournament in doubles. Were you the Yoshi player I played briefly before Singles started?

As a forewarning, I don't consider myself a good teams player, so I wouldn't say that anything I'm about to write can be considered a definitive Yoshi teams guide. Others are more than welcome to give their input.

As Yoshi in teams, you'll want to keep an opponent out of commission frequently. Yoshi has many ways to accomplish this:
1. Egg Lay to put them in an egg
2. Use one of Yoshi's various moves (D-tilt, U-tilt, D-smash, etc.) to knock down the opponent.

Doing this allows your team to shift focus on one opponent and limit what the opposing team can do.

Since there are 2 more players running around the stage that can hit you, you also should be more conservative about using your double jump, as getting hit out of it can cause you to lose your stock much easier. Try not to extend combos too long and always be aware of where your teammate is and what he/she is doing. Yoshi isn't the best at saving people, but a well-timed Egg Toss can aid your teammate offstage if they're not going to make it or to hit an opponent going for an edgeguard.

Additional tips:
-If you get a grab, let your teammate know to wait for the grab release before attacking so he/she doesn't hit you as well
-Don't be afraid to verbally ask your teammate for help. Ever since I started communicating with my teammate verbally, my teams game has improved

I hope that helps! Out of curiosity, which character(s) does your team use?

 

[Icyo]

What do you guys do against Marth? I went to a tournament yesterday and lost really hard to a Marth player. I can't quite seem to grasp what exactly I'm suppose to be doing. I could never manage to get in and punish. I got tossed around quite a bit by the aerials and never managed to use DJ armor to block his attacks.

 

[kofinater]

For how traditionally marth has been seen as yoshi's better top tier MU i'ts a bit harder for yoshi then some marths would make you believe. Basically you should be fighting marth on the ground. He wins nuetral on the ground but you can get much more out of it. for example his dtilt has better frame data but if you hit yours you can get dash -> wavedash jab reset/techchase. Marth's moves are also laggy enough to whiff punish so you can dash away and djc nair/uair when you catch his laggy moves, once you are in tho you need to punish hard. Dtilt/Dsmash near the ledge wreck marth cause of how his recovery works and are both prone to stabbing his sheild after a nair. Marth is pretty susceptible to uair strings but be careful when he is lower percents since its not really a true combo and his counter can steal your DJ. CC works pretty well if the marth is fair happy and once you get a good feel for his rythm you can even start parrying fair. What i keep telling myself to try but never end up doing save for maybe once is CC first hit of marth's nair then parry second hit

 

[kofinater]

My way of killing nana. After dtilt nana never techs so you can always get dtilt dtilt fair on. I think this also works on all the characters that dtilt -> dash -> wavedash -> jab reset and have been having much less problem with lower level peaches because of how much this adds to my punish game vs them. http://gfycat.com/SolidHeartyBlacklemur

 

[ChivalRuse]

What do you guys do against Marth? I went to a tournament yesterday and lost really hard to a Marth player. I can't quite seem to grasp what exactly I'm suppose to be doing. I could never manage to get in and punish. I got tossed around quite a bit by the aerials and never managed to use DJ armor to block his attacks.

Try to avoid his attacks with dash dance and wavedash spacing. You don't want to shield if possible. Now obviously if you get cornered, you may run out of space to move, but you can think about double jumping to the top platform of the stage if there is one and formulate a way to reroute from there or maybe go for a risky falling DJC fair if you're feeling like gambling.

D-tilt, f-tilt, neutral b, and sometimes smash attacks are good after a wavedash. Dash attack, grab, and aerials are good after dash dancing around a whiffed swing of Marth's sword, or a whiffed grab perhaps.

 

[Tranquility]

So when I'm going for up air strings I've run into a bit of an issue. In particular when I'm trying to do a perfect djc uair combo on people, I use Y + Z and up on the stick to do it, however since I'm trying to move horizontally with the left stick I sometimes fair instead of uair. Is this just a lack of practise or is there an easier way.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you're using the c-stick for your aerial, then moving horizontally with the analog stick shouldn't affect which aerial you do.

 

[DD151]

So when I'm going for up air strings I've run into a bit of an issue. In particular when I'm trying to do a perfect djc uair combo on people, I use Y + Z and up on the stick to do it, however since I'm trying to move horizontally with the left stick I sometimes fair instead of uair. Is this just a lack of practise or is there an easier way.

If you don't want to do the U-air on the C-stick, you have to drill this technique down. I do all of my DJC U-airs with the A button and practiced horizontal movement to the point where I rarely throw out an accidental F-air.

 

[Tranquility]

If you don't want to do the U-air on the C-stick, you have to drill this technique down. I do all of my DJC U-airs with the A button and practiced horizontal movement to the point where I rarely throw out an accidental F-air.

Fair enough, never really focused too much on tech but now its gotten to the point where most of the games I've lost are because of tech errors so I'm trying to really hammer out everything tech wise. Can't afford to be dropping my punishes on good players.

 

[DD151]

One way to think about the control stick movement (which is how I think about it) is that you're rolling the control stick from horizontal to vertical. It's easier if you get in the habit of angling your control stick upwards when you're doing the double jump so that it registers a horizontal direction, and then you slightly roll the control stick past the 45 degree notch before pressing A for the U-air.

 

[Peanutphobia]

What i keep telling myself to try but never end up doing save for maybe once is CC first hit of marth's nair then parry second hit

Cool idea. I haven't tried this vs. Marth, but I've been starting to do this more and more against Falcon. I think you can reliably react to his nair animation and it generally leads to a pretty hard punish. Marth's nair seems like it would be pretty difficult to react to but I'll definitely try it the next chance I get.

 

[Dinowulf]

I never considered to even try that. I like it.

 

[Sashimi]

Hello everyone,

Took a break from the game so I have been away for a bit, but I found some more new tech (as far as I am aware) recently. I am pretty sure @ schmooblidon has a name for this but I'm not sure which it is so I will ask him.

Yoshi can use the ECB change of his Uair to land on the side platforms of Yoshi's Story where his short hop would normally not bring him high enough to reach.

Spoiler: Inputs

1 Jump
6 [Airborne]
20 Uair
24 [Hitbox]
25 [Land]

The Uair can be delayed by one or two frames, giving you a three-frame window. The landing will always take place immediately after the first frame of the hitbox. The timing is the same whether you are jumping forward, backward, straight up, and does not change if you hit an opponent.

As far as I can tell it is not possible to do from the slanded part of Yoshi's Story, and it also works when jumping from the side platforms of Fountain of Dreams (at certain heights) to the top platform. I don't know the timing for FoD.

 

[schmooblidon]

This is pretty sick find dude. I would call this a Lifting Aerial Interrupt Attack, L-AIA for short.

Lifting AIs are something I haven't labbed as much, but from what I researched (about half the cast) is that they mostly occur on yoshis from mid to top platform. Very cool too see one for ground-mid platform, will be much more useful this way.

You can also do this on Dreamland, mid to top platform btw.

 

[Kalimari]

why do yoshi players crouch when they do a parry? is it cuz they don't get hit as easy or because they can crouch cancel if they screw up?

also do ice climbers have a true chaingrab on yoshi? how can he get out of it?

sry if answered already just a quick visit to this board

 

[Kimimaru]

Crouching lowers Yoshi's hurtbox, making it easier to parry since his shield is a constant size.

If you're talking about Sopo, then I believe he has a chain grab on Yoshi, but I'm not sure how long it lasts. If you're referring to both Ice Climbers, then they have chain grabs on every character in addition to wobbling.

 

[ilikcereal101]

i can't seem to double jump out of my parries fast enough to land on the ground have any tips?

 

[Nuttre]

tried using both y and x buttons, or using control stick?

 

[Icyo]

How am I supposed to get out of Sheik's chaingrab? I've heard that it shouldn't work past 20%

 

[Kimimaru]

Choose a higher numbered port than her (Ex. choose Port 4) and DI up and a little behind her head.

 

[Kimimaru]

This topic has been dead for a surprising amount of time. I would post more often, but unfortunately the only time I get to play Melee is during tournaments since I couldn't bring my setup when I moved.

Speaking of which, last Sunday I entered a tournament and placed 5th out of 75 in Singles. For some reason, Rudolph the Marth main from Japan was there and I got to play him for 4th place. He went Fox and 2 stocked me both games, but I didn't feel like I was severely outplayed. For someone who has experience against aMSa, I was expecting to do far worse. We struck to Yoshi's first game, and I counter-picked Battlefield on the second game. He banned FoD, which I don't prefer to play on anyway, and I felt I had a better chance on a slightly larger stage. Unfortunately my set against him was not recorded (I advocated for playing it on stream but they really wanted to speed up the tournament apparently).

One thing I noticed was he primarily used D-air as his approach, which you'd expect since aMSa would parry about anything else. However this limited some of his combo options, especially when I was near the edge.