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In any game, I play the character that feels right to me. I will never give up Yoshi for this reason. Sometimes I feel held back by my character, but then I look at more skilled Yoshi players like aMSa and realize it's just me.
Also, even Fox/Falco mains complain about their characters sometimes, so it seems like people in general make excuses for losing regardless of character choice.
This. To an extent. I'm sorry, guys, but I think aMSa would perform better for longer if he played a better character. He doesn't place amazingly well in Japanese tournies any more. Either 20eggseggs is still a ways away or Yoshi's begun to approach his potential.
Also I'm a salty mofo and don't have a ton to back myself up on this so whatever.
Edit: lol don't even read this
Don't mean to start an argument, and I respect Hamyojo's decision, but I don't think aMSa does poorly in Japan.
The last four Japanese tournaments I watched were all since aMSa returned home from the US, and he placed 4th at two of them and 2nd at the other two. The last one of these, he eliminated Flash (ranked #1 in their region) convincingly. If I remember correctly, aMSa is either ranked in the top 3 or the top 5.
... Oh. I'm a bit behind. Kinda want to delete my comment. Thanks for keeping me honest. I feel a bit more hopeful, but still scared. I should just lab a bit harder...
You should play who you enjoy, and that includes picking someone who will give you the opportunity to make progress over time and enjoy that progress. If Yoshi lets you do that, great, and if not, that's okay too.
No worries about the aMSa thing, it's been said all over the internet since he got 13th at that one tournament before the Summer, and there's not a lot of publicity for Japanese tournaments so it's easy to think he normally places like that at tournaments.
Even still, when you have people saying they think aMSa is top 10 in the world, and then he gets on average 3rd in Japan, it probably surprises people.
Yoshi is definitely better when you can play against people who don't know the MU. I've always done better out of state, it is just something you have to expect. Your weaknesses as a low tier are most apparent when your opponents know the MU and capitalize very effectively on your weaknesses.
Falcon also gets an honorable mention as a Yoshi counter since he just has to do what he does versus every other character. Definitely easy to pick up and play vs yoshi.
I wouldn't agree that "Falcon is easy to pick up." He is definitely good against Yoshi, but most characters are. I think all the characters in the game are difficult to master in one way or another.
Then again, to a Yoshi player, every character propably feels easy to pick up haha!
I feel like Peach is also really good at beating Yoshi, but the main reason I say Falcon would be a good character to pick up vs Yoshi is because a good amount of his strategy vs. Yoshi is the same as vs. most characters. There is a reason I have several people who have CP'ed Falcon against me, as well as other Yoshis in the past (Hamyojo talked about this recently).
Peach can do well vs, Yoshi if the player plays Peach enough to get the right mindset for her, but whenever my friends play a random character to mess around with, they've always done better with Falcon.
Before Falcon people cp'd Peach against me a lot. It never worked, I can 3 stock bad peaches with ease. I feel like Peach takes more work and thought than we give her credit for.
Since no one else has answered yet, I'll give my input. (though it would be easier to answer if you had more specific questions )
Pros
- Yoshi trades very well, especially with crouch cancel or armor
- Decent ground movement and very good platform movement. Movement in the air is not jigglypuff-tier but still pretty good
- Parrying is really good and almost always guarantees you a free hit
- no shieldstun makes yoshi's shield amazing on platforms due to shield drop + nair or uair
- amazing upwards priority. Utilt has deceptively good range, and Uair and Usmash have amazing range and priority. Eggs help you cover where these moves won't reach
- Yoshi has a few good ways of dealing with crouch cancelling, though some are kind of tough. The best is Fair, but you can also use Egg Lay, Dtilt or a well-spaced Nair
- very strong ledge game. ECEs are the best example of this but Yoshi also has yoshi bomb ledge stall and waveland or aerial interrupt for getting off the ledge safely
- the ability to DJC gives him some unique movement options in neutral
- Yoshi has lots of good anti pressure options and also has very good pressure if you can get your opponent into a bad spot (especially shielding or above you). Some of this is really technical but still worth learning
- very low crouch
Cons
- shield is not good on the ground, don't rely on it (still has situational uses but it's better to never use shield than to use it too much
- standing grab is really bad and dash grab can be hard to space (but still good)
- poor priority in front of him (but good range in front of him, at least while on the ground)
- short hop leaves him in the air for quite a while (DJC makes up for this)
- most of what I didn't list above loses really hard to crouch cancelling
- awkward body shape gets him grabbed sometimes, especially his head
- bad aerial priority and priority in general makes it hard to gain ground in the neutral
Yoshi's neutral is probably the toughest thing about him. In general, you want to use your movement to avoid moves rather than challenge them directly with your own moves. You need to have very good movement, both on the ground and on the platforms. The best moves to land are usually Fair, Dtilt or Nair, but Bair/Uair can also work in neutral, and against fastfallers downthrow is good for starting your punish game as well.
Because none of these have really good forward-facing priority (except dashgrab which is a huge commitment), it can be very difficult to win the neutral against an opponent with a good ground game. Luckily, you have a few ways to subvert your opponent's priority and get a good hit. These include (but are not limited to): double jump armor, crouch cancelling and parrying.
Yoshi's crouch cancel is great because he's heavy and has quick moves out of it (mainly dtilt and dsmash but others work too). This can be very good in certain matchups and very bad in others, but overall I think it has at least some use in every matchup.
Double jump armor is good for getting a trade that you can turn into big damage, but can be tough to use. If you go for an armor trade and your opponent doesn't take the bait (or if you can't follow-up after the armoured hit), your best bet is to go to the platforms and continue the neutral game from there. Think of this like crouch cancelling in the air.
Most character can deal with priority by shielding, but Yoshi's shield is very bad on the ground. I think it's best to learn Yoshi without shielding at all, then start to use it where it works rather than developing a bad habit of shielding whenever you're in trouble (which is bad with any character but especially bad with Yoshi). The less you shield, the more you can focus on your movement which helps you entirely avoid situations where you'd want to shield in the first place.
In contrast, shielding on platforms is very good for Yoshi, to the point where it's usually best to never attack Yoshi in this situation. Shield dropping with Yoshi is probably essential, but again: don't rely on this if it hurts your movement.
Parrying also works in almost every situation where shielding does, and is essential for helping you protect your space. It is one of the best ways to prevent your opponent from being too aggressive and trying to muscle their way through the neutral game, since it has priority over nearly everything in the game (multihit moves being the only moves that really beat parrying).
Aside from those things, your main goal in the neutral is to trick your opponent into committing to an option that will lose to your movement. This usually involves making them think that you're going to be somewhere that you're not, either by moving forward without actually committing to anything yourself, or by using your waveland and DJC tricks to put a hitbox where your opponent doesn't think you can/will. A good goal in most matchups is to get your opponent in the air or above you, because your tools are much stronger at covering this space than against a grounded opponent.
Whenever you find yourself in a bad spot or your opponent manages to get in your face, parrying will almost always solve your problems if you have the tech skill to do it in this situation. But like anything else in the game, you can't only rely on parrying, or you'll be too predictable. Every option loses to something.
Don't be afraid of the ledge. With some tech skill you can do a lot here. Likewise, Yoshi's platform movement is amazing and can help you outrun your opponent or place hitboxes in a lot of weird spots that are hard to cover or even expect sometimes. It can also be useful to go to the platforms if you need to think for a moment or just slow down the pace of the match. A lot of characters have trouble chasing Yoshi on the platforms.
Approaching is tricky for Yoshi, and he also does well at stuffing most approaches, so taking the lead first gives you a pretty good advantage (also relevant here is Yoshi's ability to make good trades). If you do want or need to approach, the most important thing is not to commit to anything big too soon. Your best ways to cover space in front of you are Dtilt, Egg Lay, Dashgrab Dsmash and Nair, but again, don't commit to any of these easily. Use your movement (dashdance, wavedash, waveland, double jump land, etc) and see how your opponent reacts.
Deal with projectiles either by parrying/powershielding, crouching/wavedashing under them, or going over them. Which one you should pick depends a lot on the projectile and also the playstyle of your opponent.
Common bad habits to avoid (at least when you're getting started with the game):
- dash attack in neutral (loses to crouch cancel, shield grab, dash back, etc)
- shielding and shieldgrabbing (use your movement instead; save shielding for very laggy attacks only)
- fishing for parries (don't sit there and wait - you're giving your opponent free reign to mix up their timing)
- using approaching bair too often (loses to most grounded options, save it for when opponents jump)
- throwing eggs in neutral (this is almost always unsafe, it can be okay vs campy peach but fast opponents will always punish you for this)
- doing the same DJC or waveland movement pattern every time (these options are only strong if you can mixup what you do with them)
- throwing too many edge-cancelled eggs (you risk an SD - throw a few until you have space to get off safely from the ledge)
Hey guys! I’d really like to ask about everyone’s thought process when you are forced to recover low against Fox. Sure, when a Fox who’s inexperienced in the MU tries to edgeguard, they usually go off stage and try to hit you with a shine/bair. But my roommate has started to just charge up-smash by the ledge as soon as I use a DJ low off-stage (aka i can't reach a platform even with an air-dodge). So basically my question is: what is the best way to avoid this edgeguard?
I haven’t been able to down-B below the hitbox and grab edge (it could be I’m just bad hah, I haven’t tried this too many times); fox’s up-smash beats out egg throw entirely and you just get hit; and air dodging isn’t even a 50-50. In this last case, my roommate knows to either wait for the air dodge, or reactively release up-smash before I land if I haven’t air-dodged early. It’s very frustrating whenever this scenario happens. I was just wondering if any of you have faced this before, and if so, what is the “best” response in most cases. Obviously, being off-stage beneath fox is not where you want to be, but I feel completely screwed whenever I get into that situation. Just wondering if I’m doing something horrendously wrong when recovering low against Fox because it sure feels like it to me!
You're right generally however with most smash players if you're not playing the top 6 (Fox/Falco/Peach/Sheik/IC's/Puff) everyone else is low teir. which is annoying to me. People call Yoshi & Pikachu a low teir team when neither one of them are low teir.
@Peanutphobia
Yoshi Bomb can be pretty low and still get the ledge, unfortunately you can't do it without having to go above the ledge before actually using it so Fox will be able to Usmash you before you actually start the Yoshi Bomb. There's nothing that's guaranteed to get you back, so your best bet is to work on your DI if you find yourself recovering low often.
When aMSa does his crazy wavelanding and movement around the stage, does he mainly use perfect wavelands and fastfalls? I'm trying to speed up my own movement more.
aMSa's movement is mostly a combination of perfect wavelands, falling wavelands (not perfect as far as I know), aerial interrupts, shai dropping, fastfalling and double jumping. The important ones are the perfect wavelands and fastfalls, but the rest can make you significantly faster and give you more options.
Hey guys! I’d really like to ask about everyone’s thought process when you are forced to recover low against Fox. Sure, when a Fox who’s inexperienced in the MU tries to edgeguard, they usually go off stage and try to hit you with a shine/bair. But my roommate has started to just charge up-smash by the ledge as soon as I use a DJ low off-stage (aka i can't reach a platform even with an air-dodge). So basically my question is: what is the best way to avoid this edgeguard?
I haven’t been able to down-B below the hitbox and grab edge (it could be I’m just bad hah, I haven’t tried this too many times); fox’s up-smash beats out egg throw entirely and you just get hit; and air dodging isn’t even a 50-50. In this last case, my roommate knows to either wait for the air dodge, or reactively release up-smash before I land if I haven’t air-dodged early. It’s very frustrating whenever this scenario happens. I was just wondering if any of you have faced this before, and if so, what is the “best” response in most cases. Obviously, being off-stage beneath fox is not where you want to be, but I feel completely screwed whenever I get into that situation. Just wondering if I’m doing something horrendously wrong when recovering low against Fox because it sure feels like it to me!
SG, right? Basically, you need to stop riding the wall. Fox has trouble breaking armour with anything but upsmash so you should generally always recover high. If you are low use yoshi's aerial mobility to fade away from the edge while he charges usmash. Also there was a bunch of times in your xanadu set with SG where you put yourself low for no reason. Either you fastfell from the ledge or you jumped really late after getting hit off.
Hey guys just curious. I was playing a "scrubby" Marth earlier today and realized that I don't know what to do against nonserious players that do things such as spam smashes and just walk around. I used to just do things such as wavedash out of shield to punish bad smashes, but I don't know what to do while playing Yoshi.
Just a couple questions, I've been messing around with Yoshi for a little while and I'm really liking how he feels.
1. When doing the up B ledge stall, what do other Yoshi players use to drop from the ledge? Control stick away, or the C-stick? From what I can tell, both methods can easily cause you to SD if you do them wrong:
- If I drop with control stick away, and don't let the control stick return to neutral before double jumping, I seem to jump too far away from the ledge and miss the sweetspot, which makes me SD.
- If I drop with C-stick down, unless I push the stick DIRECTLY down, it seems to get read as 2 inputs, and I do a down air immediately after dropping from the ledge, which also makes me SD. (a similar thing seems to happen if I drop with C-stick away - I sometimes get a back air)
So I'm not sure which is the best way to do the ledge stall with. Dropping with control stick away definitely seems to be the best idea for ledgedashing, since there's no risk of an SD there (because since I'm not immediately throwing an egg, it's a lot easier to move back towards the stage and waveland on anyway). But I have no idea what the best way to do the ledge stall is, I seem to mess up pretty much the same amount with both. Sooo... how do other people do it?
2. Parrying... I know there's lots of stuff already out there but I'm having trouble understanding just how I do it, and I can't find a straight answer. This is what I think I know so far, correct me if I'm wrong...
- I press shield
- I immediately jump within 6(?) frames of shielding
And if I got hit in that frame window, I'm invulnerable, and can immediately attack afterwards (with an aerial or an upsmash).
But I'm not sure how to tell if I'm doing it properly? If I enter the inputs and don't get hit, is there any visual cue to tell I did it right? Are there any videos or things that can explain this properly? Again sorry if this has been answered 239482394 times but I can't find the answer myself..
Unfortunately there is no easy input for edge cancelled eggs. It's a fussy technique and the risk of SDing is always just a few frames away. However, that shouldn't prevent you from being consistent with it after enough practice. I use control stick away, and when I was learning it I also had trouble preventing myself from double jumping backwards. To fix this I would practise just the first few inputs (control stick away, control stick back to neutral, then jump) without throwing an egg so that I could focus just on the double jump.
For parrying, you've got it mostly right. If you're looking for a complete explanation of how parrying works, there's one in this thread. There are a few ways to know if you're doing it properly:
- If you successfully parry an attack, you'll see a blue circle appear where you got hit just like attacks do on shield. This will not appear when you parry grabs.
- If you parry without getting hit, you'll still hear the shield noise, so you can tell that you're doing it properly if you turn off the game music and listen for the shield sound.
- You can also look at Yoshi's animation before you jump. If you see him standing and curling into a ball before starting his jumpsquat, then you were invincible during that time (this is also a good way to spot other players parrying when you watch matches).
And if you haven't found out already, trigger tricking your controller will help with parrying significantly. Just hold down the button you use to parry as you plug your controller in (or while resetting your controller with X+Y+Start) and it will turn off light shielding for that button. This allows you to easily full shield in one frame, which is essential for parrying.
This was the best answer i could have asked for myself. I didn't know about the trigger tricking. I've been playing without it for a whole year now lmao. My next question on to that. After i parry succesfully why does yoshi still jump? Do i have to do to a djc nair? or is there other options i can do for example: Parry > Fsmash?
Your options out of parry are almost limitless. DJC Nair works in most situations and you will almost always see this being used, but you can do just about anything. You do usually need to jump, though, even for grounded options. For example, if you wanted to do Parry > Fsmash, you'd need to jump after the parry, then double jump land, then fsmash. You also have movement options out of parry (shield drop, wavedash, double jump land), jump cancelled Usmash, grab, etc.
The most common thing that will limit what you can do is time. If you parry a Fox Nair, for example, you only have about 12 frames before he can shine, so going for something like Parry > DJL > Fsmash is risky. This is why DJC Nair is so common - it's really fast. If you have the time to do it, DJC Uair leads to really good things, so I'd recommend that if you're looking for new parry follow-ups.
If you're asking why Yoshi is able to jump even after blocking a move, it's because getting hit while invincible does not affect Yoshi in any way - no hitlag or animation change, so he can jump right after just like he would have if no one had attacked him.
what i meant you actually explained the answer. Even after i did the parry and tried to attack with a fsmash i jumped anyways. Not knowing that i had to double jump waveland to do the fsmash in the process which you just explained as well. So you killed two birds (Falco) with one egg. haha bad pun but thanks for the input as always.
Wait, so for trigger tricking, do you hold down a L/R as you plug in your controller? Also, is this worth it to do all the time or is it more of just something to help newer players parry
Wait, so for trigger tricking, do you hold down a L/R as you plug in your controller? Also, is this worth it to do all the time or is it more of just something to help newer players parry
aMSa uses trigger tricking, yes (and recommends it to other players). It's something you should do at all times. The only downside to it is that you can't light shield with the same button that you use to parry, but this is a small thing to give up for how much easier parrying becomes.
Does trigger tricking make lightshielding truly impossible? If I hold shield very lightly after trigger tricking I can still lightshield but anything beyond that appears to be a hard shield, I think.
You don't have to do the trigger trick for both L and R. I personally use L for parrying and L cancels, and R for WD, lightshield, or a regular shield(not trying to parry). You can also buffer lightshield with Z, which can be pretty useful.
I avoid the 20XX hack pack because I've had issues with trigger buttons on those.
Don't show Yoshi frame data to other Smashers while eating. I showed Yoshi's Nair hitbox to Sethlon and Oracle and they told me its so disgusting that its the kind of thing you don't look at while eating. I agree.
I can't really say I've ever seen the frame data for Yoshi before, but his nair reminds me of Pika's bair, where their hurtbox has a further reach than the move's hitbox. That's not cool
You could do it, but there are more significant downsides to that. Technically that counts as modifying your controller, and although it's not easy for people to notice it, I have heard of TOs who actually try to enforce that rule (which means you might risk getting DQed). Also, you'd never be able to light shield with that button, which might get annoying if you want to play other characters.
)
Peanutphobia
Yoshi Bomb can be pretty low and still get the ledge, unfortunately you can't do it without having to go above the ledge before actually using it so Fox will be able to Usmash you before you actually start the Yoshi Bomb. There's nothing that's guaranteed to get you back, so your best bet is to work on your DI if you find yourself recovering low often.
Sef
