Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Pabmyster]

Kofi! nooooo! That was such a good second game tho, good effort! Such a good egg lay gimp as well, the chat was so hype!

Edit: sorry if that was off topic lol

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

I've found that I've started to use nair and bair to approach too much. What are some other creative ways to approach/apply pressure that I can use to mix up my actions more?

 

[Kimimaru]

Can you also add how difficult you think the MU is?

For that matter, I would like to see some player opinions on the various MUs. In particular Kimimaru and Hamyojo's opinions

I feel the MU is 50-50 in the neutral, but Samus usually has an easier time killing Yoshi than vice versa so I'd say 55-45 in Samus' favor. On smaller stages it's 55-45 in Yoshi's favor. This MU is based on playstyles moreso than other MUs.

Do you want full fledged thoughts or just ratios for other MUs? I've given my thoughts on various MUs in the past but I feel we need separate topics where we can all voice our opinions on a particular MU. This'll make it easier to find information about a specific MU.

I've found that I've started to use nair and bair to approach too much. What are some other creative ways to approach/apply pressure that I can use to mix up my actions more?

Are you getting shield grabbed often, or is your opponent just simply beating out your approaches because they're predictable? Sometimes the best way to apply pressure is to not do anything at all or walk. It gets in your opponent's head because they feel you're playing with them or because they don't know how to react to it.

To answer your question about approaching, first I need to ask if you waveland often. You need to be fast and all over the place so your opponent has trouble predicting when you're going to N-air, B-air, or something else. If you're in the air and know they're going to try to shield grab your aerial, do a DJL or fake them out with DJC auto-cancel D-air/B-air and grab them.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

It's not that I'm getting shield grabbed really often, my opponent is beating out my approaches. I have been wavelanding a lot, but I think I've developed some sort of rhythm to it, which is obviously something I'll need to fix on my own. I'll try to incorporate DJL, but how do I DJC auto cancel dair/bair? What are the approximate timings?

 

[Kimimaru]

It's not that I'm getting shield grabbed really often, my opponent is beating out my approaches. I have been wavelanding a lot, but I think I've developed some sort of rhythm to it, which is obviously something I'll need to fix on my own. I'll try to incorporate DJL, but how do I DJC auto cancel dair/bair? What are the approximate timings?

Yeah, you need to mix up your movement as well as your move choice to throw your opponent off.

Simply DJC then use B-air or D-air and immediately fast fall. If you land before the hitboxes come out, you'll only suffer normal landing lag.

 

[kofinater]

Kofi! nooooo! That was such a good second game tho, good effort! Such a good egg lay gimp as well, the chat was so hype!

Edit: sorry if that was off topic lol

Sorry guys, TO johns. Had some very unfortunate SDs vs both MDZ and Juggleguy(recorded). I really didn't get to play much before my pools at all. I'd like to play MDZ again he was catching my rdjc nair a bunch first game which is partial my tendency to press buttons for no reason sometimes and i wasn't DI'ing or teching falco combos wwell, I probably should have struck to yoshis i think fountain is only good vs falco if im 100% on point but i didnt play too many freindlies so no way that would be the case. Every falco i've played in the last month has struck battlefield first and im sad case i think its the best stage for the MU, maybe i'll start hosting tourneys with BF only ruleset. As far as the tournament for me, I beat all the players i should even tho i wasn't playing super well but lost to 2 better players that i felt i could have atleast gone to game 3 with missed bracket by 1 set. Side note, I'm Fight Pitt's main TO and my tournament is running ultra smooth and we didnt go more then 15 minutes of schedule, hopefully day2 is as good as a kick back and watch top32 as a TO and spectator. Any critique other than not SD'ing is super appreciated for anyone who watched, i'll link videos when they are uploaded.

 

[Pabmyster]

Sorry guys, TO johns. Had some very unfortunate SDs vs both MDZ and Juggleguy(recorded). I really didn't get to play much before my pools at all. I'd like to play MDZ again he was catching my rdjc nair a bunch first game which is partial my tendency to press buttons for no reason sometimes and i wasn't DI'ing or teching falco combos wwell, I probably should have struck to yoshis i think fountain is only good vs falco if im 100% on point but i didnt play too many freindlies so no way that would be the case. Every falco i've played in the last month has struck battlefield first and im sad case i think its the best stage for the MU, maybe i'll start hosting tourneys with BF only ruleset. As far as the tournament for me, I beat all the players i should even tho i wasn't playing super well but lost to 2 better players that i felt i could have atleast gone to game 3 with missed bracket by 1 set. Side note, I'm Fight Pitt's main TO and my tournament is running ultra smooth and we didnt go more then 15 minutes of schedule, hopefully day2 is as good as a kick back and watch top32 as a TO and spectator. Any critique other than not SD'ing is super appreciated for anyone who watched, i'll link videos when they are uploaded.

It's all good. I actually think think you could have beat MDZ. And great tourney so far.
For advice, i'd have to wait until the videos are up, but one thing I remember is that first game against MDZ, you were getting really pinned down by lasers, and I could tell your powershielding wasn't on, and you weren't using your platform movement to your advantage. All in all I think you were too grounded. The second game you played a lot better aside from the SDs, and really if you didn't SD you probably would have won. Didn't catch the Juggleguy set, though I personally don't like the Falcon MU that much. Would like to see that one when it's up for sure.

EDIT: oops, said you could have beat Juggleguy when I didn't even see the set. Fixed it lol

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Question to anyone on here that uses Dolphin netplay: is parrying worth even trying to apply on it? Netplay is my main way to practice against other people, since I can't actually make it out to fests and tournaments often.

 

[Kimimaru]

@ SNEAKY_URKEL Yes, I'd say so. At the moment it's also my only way to practice, but I still parry whenever I can. We should play sometime!

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

@ Kimimaru Sorry but I'm WC ;_; If we have sub 50-60 ping then it could still work well though

 

[Kimimaru]

I've played some games with people in WC before with roughly 60-70 ping, so we should definitely try it out sometime.

 

[kofinater]

http://youtu.be/wY57ZSdkIRI Me vs Juggleguy
I think i dropped the ball on edge-guarding at 5:50 is what i think should happen every time Falcon gets of stage yoshi has the mobility to follow Falcon's recovery then hit him back off stage.

 

[Purpletuce]

Holy hell, someone actually plays the putrid color of Yoshi.

Also, you seemed way too scared, and seemed to run to the platform a little too often.

Also Also, you were fishing for DJC Uairs a ton, even in situations where it wouldn't be likely to work, or good if it worked (approaching falcon at 0%)...

 

[Kimimaru]

http://youtu.be/wY57ZSdkIRI Me vs Juggleguy
I think i dropped the ball on edge-guarding at 5:50 is what i think should happen every time Falcon gets of stage yoshi has the mobility to follow Falcon's recovery then hit him back off stage.

I just finished watching the set. Your Yoshi has improved a lot!

-I think you were approaching too often and a little predictably. B-air is a very good move in the Falcon MU and I was surprised to see it being used rarely. To avoid him reading you, mix up your style in neutral
-Another thing I noticed is that when you recover low, you don't shorten your jump by throwing an egg and grabbing the ledge. This is very useful as it leaves you less vulnerable when recovering. Juggleguy didn't punish you very much offstage, but other players certainly will. I'd also like to see more ECEs and faster ECEs; practice them using aMSa's Event 50 method as it's the most fun and the results are apparent
-I think you should incorporate more jab resets when the opportunity arises
-I liked your use of U-tilt, but F-tilt is another great move that I didn't see much of and can get Falcon into many combo situations.
-More eggs in general on stage. There are situations where it's safe to throw an egg at Falcon (Ex. if he's in shield far from you; throw an egg above him)
-Brush up more on movement and wavelands. Your wavedancing was great, and I feel having quicker movement will further enhance your play
-You shield dropping was on point that set; great job!
-If he's at a high percent and you're at a low percent, consider CC D-smashing his N-air

Great job keeping that set close; you could've had Game 2 if it weren't for that SD! Just remember that one stock is not a lead in Melee, and you can always make a comeback!

 

[kofinater]

Holy hell, someone actually plays the putrid color of Yoshi.

Also, you seemed way too scared, and seemed to run to the platform a little too often.

Also Also, you were fishing for DJC Uairs a ton, even in situations where it wouldn't be likely to work, or good if it worked (approaching falcon at 0%)...

Yellow is so good . I play all the colors but my personally color tier list is:
Cyan
Pink
blue
Yellow
Red
Green
Also thanks for the inputs guys will definitely work on it.

 

[Purpletuce]

I like most of the colors... I've changed colors a lot, at first I was all about the light blue, then I was all about red, then most recently I've been going a lot of pink. Although I've always liked Dark Blue.

Next tournament I'm going to go all Dark Blue... what a good color

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

I don't even know what color to stick with. I usually like Red the most, but don't wanna be seen as just playing Yoshi because I'm an aMSa fanboy...

 

[Sashimi]

Dark Blue is top tier because of Super Mario World.

 

[Purpletuce]

If people don't know who you are, they will assume you play Yoshi because of aMSa, no matter what color you're playing.

 

[Pabmyster]

tbh I started to play Yoshi because of aMSa, but I continue to play Yoshi because he is fun to play, and he is unique amongst the whole cast. I also strive to play Yoshi like aMSa because he is the best active Yoshi, and the fact that he just started playing Melee competitively two years ago and is already this good with a presumed "low tier" just goes to show the potential of this character.

Also, Cyan ftw!

 

[hamyojo]

Pink is the best color you people don't even know. I mean, see profile pic. But really Pink Yoshi's definitely my bae. I got a plushy of him and everything. Best waifu.
Anyway, now Tourney Locator (closest thing to a VGBootcamp in the midwest/south I guess) is doing Melee Mondays! I got third at the first one, and here are the vids: https://www.youtube.com/user/TourneyLocator/videos
Buuut I wouldn't look too deep in to them. I was playing like **** and my controller has been REALLY off lately. Got it replaced the day after. I hope to do even better at the next one, but us top 7 or so players around here are all kinda close in skill... Outside of Wobbles of course.
Anyway, being streamed is going to change some things for me. Waaay less practicing not-Yoshi characters for me. I'm going all Yoshi because I love stream time and would never not go him when I know lots of people are watching. Maybe some day I'll bring out a Ganon or, like, Pikachu, but no Sheik! Yay mid tiers.

 

[kofinater]

it was fun watching hamyojo at twitch.tv/tourneylocator. I'll be tuning in every monday, if you guys want to catch me, Pittsburghs weeklies are at twitch.tv/pghneohsmash every Friday at 5:30 est starting with doubles, melee singles starts around 8:00

 

[Pabmyster]

Yeah hamyojo you're Yoshi is really impressive I must say, that new controller must have done wonders for you Its fun to chat with the other Yoshis in streams, so if you ever want to talk yoshi, those streams are great for doing so. I'm in most Melee/PM streams in general, so if anyone sees me, assume I will talk about Yoshi stuff or pretty much anything else smash related lol. I see a lot of you guys there as well, which is cool.

 

[hamyojo]

Eh I've played better. I really wanted second at that tourney, I was flubbing a lot of stuff. Stream makes me kinda nervous. I know how to beat Boomstick and was really looking forward to playing him on stream
Oh well. I have very little Falcon experience and Oracle was talking to me about how I was covering all the right options, so he would never go for them. All that means is that I'll get a lot better at covering the more obscure choices, which is good. Just need more experience! I'm really glad I got a few cool combos though, lol.

 

[Pabmyster]

That moonwalk nair was so crazy lol. Never seen that before. aMSa could take a couple style notes XD don't see moonwalks all too often from Yoshi players.
If we could do a Falcon MU on the boards sometime that would be nice, I know I need some Falcon help myself!

 

[kofinater]

ooh, MU threads would be cool, a bunch of the old ones have broken links

 

[Pabmyster]

They're kinda dated/incomplete as well. Not sure if many of them include current tech like parry, shield drop, etc. They are all from like 2007 and before that, and the majority of the threads that do work aren't very fleshed out. I really think these forums could get a little makeover tbh. I'm willing to help if possible, though I probably won't be of much help as probably the least experienced Yoshi lol. I can try tho.

 

[BigglesWorth]

I really hope this is topical but I really wanted to hear others words on the matter. How did you guys feel about PM Yoshi? I brought up the topic to a few others I knew and I get mixed opinions. Not about how good he is but just how you compare how he plays to how he plays in Melee.

 

[Sashimi]

I played PM yoshi for a bit. imo they replaced a lot of neat things about his punish game with simpler stuff that feels kinda cheesy. It seems like most of the PM yoshi players are also reluctant to learn any of his melee stuff too, which is annoying because they blame the character's alleged shortcomings and ask for buffs he doesn't need instead of using his best tools.

Amazing dashdance game with his new grab though, that's kind of nice.

 

[hamyojo]

I've been making notes for a modern Yoshi MU thread.
And on Project M, try him again in 3.5. He feels way better due to landing detection stuff, and side-b no longer being safe on shield. Side b just helps Yoshi's tech chase game in 3.5. I'm actually going to start playing PM far more often now because I like Yoshi/Other chars a lot and I live in away better PM than Melee region, so might as well learn some stuff with the new, better game
Parrying doesn't work for things that last longer than a frame in PM due to how Brawl invincibility works, so that really, really sucks... but he can jump out of shield, lol. Give him a try, but have many, many grains of salt nearby.

 

[Purpletuce]

There is a player in my region who is talking about making a PM PR, and he considers himself top 3 is state for sure... although his melee Yoshi got 4-stocked by the #3 and #4 in my city (which is 2nd/3rd biggest in state).

Game is a joke and all about the gimmicks. The only reason it is popular is because when people are new to smash, and they can't get over the learning curve of Melee, the switch to PM because it is easy.

Yoshi feels way to different in that game, he will mess up your understanding of what moves you can use to beat other moves, what moves are safe (in pm, it is all of them), and changes a good amount of timings (ECE/DJC)

 

[Kimimaru]

Game is a joke and all about the gimmicks. The only reason it is popular is because when people are new to smash, and they can't get over the learning curve of Melee, the switch to PM because it is easy.

I don't quite agree with this. I think many people feel this way because the developers of PM gave many characters more mix-ups and options in given situations. I've heard many people say they like PM more because it's more balanced than Melee, which I'd agree with. However, I do feel the combos and game overall look far less natural than Melee. This could be because of the Brawl animations moving faster than they normally would.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Going to my first tournament tomorrow... hoping I can bop some people with my Yoshi. Vegas doesn't really know the matchup well. I'm also gonna have a moneymatch with someone, and that'll be streamed :D

Real quick, what are some options Yoshi should keep in mind while at the ledge? And any tips for the Falco matchup?

 

[Kimimaru]

Some ledge options ECEs, ledgestalls, invincible N-air (when edgeguarding).

I'll make it brief for the Falco MU:
-Parry lasers/approaches
-Make your punishes worth it. Combo him hard and make him afraid of you
-Jab reset and punish missed techs
-Space B-air for pokes
-Strike to Battlefield and Dreamland. Avoid FD, PS, and YS

 

[Pabmyster]

Going to my first tournament tomorrow... hoping I can bop some people with my Yoshi. Vegas doesn't really know the matchup well. I'm also gonna have a moneymatch with someone, and that'll be streamed :D

Real quick, what are some options Yoshi should keep in mind while at the ledge? And any tips for the Falco matchup?

Btw don't go in with the mindset that you will bop people. That is how i got bopped myself first tourney. You will surely lose to some janky stuff but don't mind it too much. That being said, still have confidence, esp. at the ledge. One of the hardest things to be consistent with under pressure is Yoshi's ledge stuff, and you need to practice it under pressure to further improve. I also have a tourney today, so i hope i carry this mindset as well lol.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Pabmyster I was kidding lol. Vegas really does NOT know this matchup (I'm the only pure Yoshi main right now, the other Yoshis are pockets) but I'm aware that I probably won't even break pools haha. Lookin' forward to it, though!

 

[Pabmyster]

Pabmyster I was kidding lol. Vegas really does NOT know this matchup (I'm the only pure Yoshi main right now, the other Yoshis are pockets) but I'm aware that I probably won't even break pools haha. Lookin' forward to it, though!

reread my post lol, i edited it to be more useful xD

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Luckily, netplay has helped me be able to do some ledge stuff under pressure haha. There's noticeable lag sometimes, but it's better than purely drilling stuff vs. CPUs.

 

[Pabmyster]

Yeah.... so I got bopped today at our monthly, ofc by a couple Falcos. Barely made it out of pools at that, despite all my practice lol. My pool was pretty janky with a bunch of floaties and a Falco, then in bracket I got knocked into losers by my region's best player, who is a Falco, with a 4 stock (doh!) and a three stock, then in losers I was eliminated by another mediocre Falco, after losing a pretty close game one, then losing my confidence in Yoshi an switching to Falcon game two, to get beat even worse.

Once that was over I had a lot more success in friendlies vs. 3rd and 4th in my region. It seems like i'm impressing a lot of people with Yoshi in general, and I always get commended for improving tremendously each tourney/meetup I go to, I just don't have the results to show for it. The Yoshi life is a hard one indeed.

I will have videos of my matches up in the next month or so, depending, so if you guys could critique those that would be nice

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

I got bopped as well. Had a lot of good players in my pool. A had a couple of close matches, but I have a bad habit of not being able to adapt mid set. I almost won against a Falcon, but everything basically built up to make me extremely nervous.

1. was a notable local that was choosing a character he didn't main
2. my first time on stream
3. people ended up getting hype and cheering for me

A lot of rolling and missed edgeguards... I'll post it here once I have the set anyways, but it wasn't very good footage.

EDIT oh but I bopped a decent amount of people in friendlies. pools were hard though lmao