Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[kofinater]

Anyone have any insight on the Luigi MU? I've been getting rocked by Abate, part of which is because he is amazing and partially because i don't know what exactly to do in neutral. I think i'm getting a hang of edgegaurding luigi and think yoshi has some pretty good tools to do it, but i'm not sure how to consistently get into that scenario. 1 thing for sure is that lugi's aerials are fast enough to cover shield drop uair and most grounded moves on shield can be wd oos upb'd.
My last 2 sets with him:
http://youtu.be/wkioIw9S8zk(1 week ago)
http://youtu.be/TP_9oBfLOXI((2-days ago)

 

[Krynxe]

Definitely look out for some of his setups, like ledgejump fireball into waveland upB for instance. Luigi has a lot of gimmicky tools that catch people people since he isn't the most well known character, so taking note of small things like that will help.

Abate is way better than the Luigi I'm used to playing, so whatever else I say may not really apply. But here's a couple things from my experience:

ledge game: using Yoshi's upB isn't that good against luigi unless you can catch him charging sideB off stage. Other than that, his aeriels beat out eggs, and it just gives him a chance to recover or waveland into punish depending on his positioning. Using downB to regrab the ledge is good if you think Luigi would be able to grab the ledge without using his upB because of Luigi's floatiness, he can't snap the ledge quick enough to take it from you and will get hit if he tries. This forces him to recover low, which is pretty much a mixup. To prevent him from hitting you with the end of his upB and making you release the ledge (and accidentally airdodge when you meant to roll onstage sometimes), doing another downB to refresh invincibility is helpful, since he usually can't snap the ledge without hitting you meaning you can't really kill yourself with downB as long as you're ready to airdodge if needed. If you're onstage, dtilt is incredibly strong for ledgeguarding because he will usually get hit unless he goes low enough to sweetspot, in which case you can react with a runoff djc ledgegrab. Just keep track of his double jump and be very cautious going off stage, even just to the ledge since he can double jump uair you.

neutral game: Luigi controls the ground incredibly well, and usually his biggest flaw in this regard is opponents using shield. Yoshi's poor oos options makes this very tough, so the workaround is trying to find other holes in Luigi's gameplan. Luigi's jumps are very slow and floaty, so I have noticed that if you are on the platforms, you can react to his jumps with your own, and then come down on him after he whiffs an aerial. Usually Luigi will do 2-3 aeriels in a single jump, but if you time it right (especially with djc nair) you can come down on him between attacks or simply regain stage control. Making Luigi jump makes his otherwise spontaneous movement momentarily predictable, allowing you to briefly be able to maneuver around him as you like - but respect his waveland. People aren't used to fighting a character with as much coverage as Luigi, so think about it like a Fox that can dash in and Usmash you at any time. Things like cc dtilt, strong hits of nair, and dsmash are all amazing for getting Luigi offstage to set up a kill. Unfortunately it's really tough to get dsmash, or any smash attack on Luigi reliably, so be sure not to force it and spotdodges or parries might be have some application here. When you're in that sort of mid-long range where Luigi likes to wavedash approach you, doing things like nair in place or retreating bair can catch his approaches and turn the momentum around, but be careful not to throw them out on a whim because luigi can punish from half a stage away. Using moves that cover the area that's sort of 45 degrees up above Luigi's head is pretty strong in general, because non of his really high priority moves cover that area, so this makes bair useful in many situations on stage. If you're shielding on a platform when Luigi jumps up and does an aerial, he will almost always do a rising and then a falling aerial before retreating back to the main part of the stage. Shield dropping after the second aerial is your opening to counter attack, but be careful because a Luigi with good spacing will often be out of nair range so you have to use a djc. Double jab is pretty good against luigi because he can't shield grab you for it due to his low friction, and if you tries to wavedash in after it you can jab again, do a tilt, or nair.

Again, this is my experience against much low-level Luigi players, but at least it's some ideas to think about hope it helps anyways

 

[Purpletuce]

I have a ton of experience vs. Luigi, I used to live with a Luigi (his tag is Bird) who was really good, but not well known (he beat Toph semi-recently), and I am currently procrastinating on studying, so I'll give some thoughts:

To start, I would recommend being safe early on. Space with Fair, Dtilt, or eggs, until you can get him airbourne. Those 3 options are your best bets to get around his CC. Be sure to space very safely on his aerials. They can be beaten, but it requires precision.

In general, you want to get him above you, because he can't land safely against you. Strive to get 40%+ every time you land a Fair.

You also want to maintain good spacing at all times. If you let him get in your face, his moves are faster, cover more options, and will beat yours. You have got to keep him out of range.

Also, a random little tip: At higher %s, using your egg lay becomes a good option, because when they break out they'll be put high enough that they won't be able to reach you, and then you can try to punish their landing. This is especially true on PS and FD.


--Different topic--

Has anyone else used Yoshi's Fair to intentionally trade with low Firefox? I've used that a bit lately, and it can be quite a bit easier than the super tight ledgehop Nairs.

--New topic--

What does everyone do to `reset` their mentalities in the game. I get frustrated too often, and definitely start playing worse because of it, which will in turn cause more frustration, creating a terrible cycle.

 

[Sashimi]

@ Purpletuce

I haven't used Fair to trade very often, but I occasionally use Dair to trade with low firefox because it makes returning to the stage easy for me, and it's usually not clear for the opponent how many hits they'll have to wait before meteor cancelling. It could be one if it trades, or it could several if the Dair wins.

Edit: mindset is tricky, but more info would certainly help. When do you get frustrated? Is it mostly in friendlies, in bracket? What game-related situations cause it? A particular playstyle/character, or just in general when things don't go well?

If it's RNG/Wobbling/etc things that are considered "unfair" or skill inflators, it helps to let go of any sense of "nobility" when playing (ie: no one should feel bad for playing a certain way or feel good for avoiding certain strategies). But you've been around for a while, so I'm sure you're comfortable with these things already.

If it's getting frustrated with losing games/sets or even exchanges within a game, then it helps to have the mindset of "playing to learn" rather than "playing to win." You can learn to appreciate losing a particular instance of the neutral game if you focus more on why it's happening than focusing on the fact that it's happening. Of course, it's tough to stay positive when the answer isn't obvious, but when this happens to me I try to remind myself that if the answer isn't clear, it's probably because my opponent is doing something or playing in a way I haven't encountered before (this isn't limited to things like new attacks or spacing, but also approaches to the game. ex: maybe I'm getting conditioned to do something, but not aware of it). Often, the opportunity to experience something new (or something with which you're familiar but haven't mastered yet) is a good motivation for me to keep going, because it means I'm about to improve if I take advantage of the opportunity.

If it's just from a lack of improvement or success of some kind, then it helps to remember that melee is a difficult game, and that's partially why people love it. A lot of top players have said that "getting wrecked" is their favourite (or part of their favourite) thing in the game, because it shows them that there's still so much more to the game that they haven't learned or experienced yet.

It also helps to remind yourself occasionally why you play the game, even while you're playing.

 

[Purpletuce]

Mainly getting disappointed in my own skill. Usually when I misspace something and then I get punished hard, or I lose a series of stupid trades. Example: I try to do a DJC fade out Nair on my opponent so I can't get shield grabbed, but FF 1 frame early, so I get grabbed, so I think that was silly of me. Then I'll have my spacing lose to people just running straight at me with late hitboxes, and they'll just win stupid trades with dash attacks and jabs for 30 seconds. It always seems like it is just way to easy to play a high tier, and I'm never good enough to play Yoshi right.

 

[hamyojo]

Trading with fair seems... Irresponsible, but not always a bad idea. I guess I'd have to do it only if I'm already ahead. Fair has too much lag before/after to safely hit the opponent while they're /too/ far under the stage. Definitely too much lag to not give people time to meteor cancel, sadly. If you have that hard of a read, just egg their firefox charge. Its hilarious.

 

[hamyojo]

Mainly getting disappointed in my own skill. Usually when I misspace something and then I get punished hard, or I lose a series of stupid trades. Example: I try to do a DJC fade out Nair on my opponent so I can't get shield grabbed, but FF 1 frame early, so I get grabbed, so I think that was silly of me. Then I'll have my spacing lose to people just running straight at me with late hitboxes, and they'll just win stupid trades with dash attacks and jabs for 30 seconds. It always seems like it is just way to easy to play a high tier, and I'm never good enough to play Yoshi right.

These mistakes happen with every character. Don't blame Yoshi, he has some great options. Try playing your opponent more. Read their sheild and what they'll do rather than react to the fact they're shielding. Since I've started Sheiking I've gotten very, very strong against defensive players. Maybe play her for a bit, she really helped me lots. Iunno. Getting to /really/ learn news chars always gives me lots of good perspective.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'd say in certain MUs, my Sheik, Fox and Falco can be better than my Yoshi. Playing them definitely helps my Yoshi, but I still have the most trouble playing him consistently.

Trading with Fair is something I do when I know they have to recover from below the ledge. The amount of hitlag on it, coupled with how low a firefox goes can make it into a kill. I think putting an egg there is less likely to kill at the %s I use Fair, and requires more of a specific read.

 

[Kimimaru]

Here's my general Luigi advice from before. I figured it's still relevant even though you're playing against arguably the best Luigi player in the world.

Spoiler: General Luigi Advice

I've played this matchup a lot, and my Doubles partner is a Luigi main. I win a significant portion of the matches I play against him, but I would consider us to be about even in skill level since we perform equally well in tournaments.

What to do:
-Recover high
-D-tilt
-B-air
-F-air (not too often)
-N-air
-U-air
-U-smash

Luigi's ground game is pretty good, but D-tilt keeps him at bay. Fortunately, Yoshi has a much better aerial game, so abuse it as much as you can and use platforms. What you want to do is tack on percent early then keep hitting him offstage. Edgeguard with ECEs if he recovers low since he can't really do anything about them. Sometimes you can mix it up by doing a quick DJ ledgegrab as he uses Up + B to get the ledge before him; there's no need to worry about the weak part of his recovery since it will never break your armor. Throwing eggs at him while he's offstage is good too since his poor aerial mobility makes it harder for him to avoid them.

Your N-air, just like his, is a great combo breaker and that applies to this matchup as well. U-air will beat his aerials handily and can be used to keep him in the air. U-smash is great as well for the same reason but is a safer, stronger move that will kill him off the top at around 100%.

When recovering, always recover high unless he's far away and you want to reach the ledge earlier. His aerials break your superarmor pretty early, but oftentimes he won't be able to follow up with another before you can safely touch the stage. Don't be afraid to ECE him away from the ledge.

What not to do:
-Recover low
-Use Eggs from close range

All of Luigi's aerials, especially N-air, eat through your eggs easily. As a result, you won't want to throw eggs too often or too close to him so he can beat them and still punish you. Make sure to force an approach, preferably into the air, with an egg if he's far away and take it from there.

Luigi's D-air breaks Yoshi's armor at around the early 40 or 50 percents, so don't give him that option to gimp you and recover high. If you have no choice other than to recover low, try throwing an egg to cover you.

I know this matchup very well but have trouble explaining it. I wish the videos I had of it were still up since they would better show how I approach it.

 

[Peanutphobia]

Hey Yoshi boards!

I’m a yoshi player from Maryland and I’ve been meaning to post here for a while. First off, I just wanted to say thanks for the awesome info thread @ Sashimi ! It’s super informative! Secondly, I wanted to ask about yoshi’s down-B. I’ve heard several commentators say that it has more knockback at the top of its hitbox; and I really don’t use it enough to know if that’s true. So, can someone confirm that?

Additionally, I’d like to hear people’s thoughts on the Samus matchup. I don’t have much Samus experience in MD/VA but fortunately Violence has moved here so hopefully that will change soon. I’d especially like to hear @ Kimimaru ’s opinion, because when I talked to Violence about his experience in the matchup, he noted that he played you quite a bit.

Also, thanks for all the cool discussions here guys; I’ve been lurking for a little while but I’ve learned a lot from y’all. =]

 

[Purpletuce]

Don't listen to commentators about Yoshi. EVER. Seriously, aMSa vs. M2K, one of the most hype Yoshi sets ever... and the commentators are talking about how they don't know if Yoshi can spotdodge.

Grounded DownB is stronger, and usually when you're chasing someone with your downB(usually happens when they don't DI Fair), you'll want to hit with the top of your hitbox, that way you don't waste time rising above them.

My previous advice about Luigi applies very similarly to Samus, but also add in eggs to snipe the top bomb from her recovery, and work on hitting her as she tethers, so she will lose it. Finally, make sure you're able to consistently parry missiles on reaction.

 

[BigglesWorth]

I have used dsmash to trade with low firefox and I have used fair to get fox side b. If that helps, Its great if you catch them off guard or if their high enough percent they get sent close to their deaths.

Trading with fair seems... Irresponsible, but not always a bad idea. I guess I'd have to do it only if I'm already ahead. Fair has too much lag before/after to safely hit the opponent while they're /too/ far under the stage. Definitely too much lag to not give people time to meteor cancel, sadly. If you have that hard of a read, just egg their firefox charge. Its hilarious.

I've gotten pretty good at this. Practicing all the different trajectories of eggs (jump cancel, dj and then pulling down, egging from backwards jump, egging from forward jump, egging from all ways to leave ledge, shortened throw, reverse variations, platform waveland variations), practicing hitting egging a 2nd players with no one controlling them from one side of the stage to the next, and then doing that on reaction egging onto ledge or waveland from platform then egging onto ledge gives you a huge intuitive feel for where you put eggs. There really is not a trajectory in any part of the stage Yoshi doesn't have 2 or 3 egg throw variations to cover. It feels a lot more consistent then I thought I could be with that. Really, you just follow how they are flying in the air and it can become 2nd nature to know where to put the egg. Sniping is probably the most satisfying thing about Yoshi. xD

 

[Peanutphobia]

Yeah, that's what I thought @ Purpletuce , I don't pay any attention for the most part; I just kept hearing about the fabled "tipper down-b" and thought it might actually exist haha. Also, thanks for the advice!

 

[hamyojo]

I have used dsmash to trade with low firefox and I have used fair to get fox side b. If that helps, Its great if you catch them off guard or if their high enough percent they get sent close to their deaths.


I've gotten pretty good at this. Practicing all the different trajectories of eggs (jump cancel, dj and then pulling down, egging from backwards jump, egging from forward jump, egging from all ways to leave ledge, shortened throw, reverse variations, platform waveland variations), practicing hitting egging a 2nd players with no one controlling them from one side of the stage to the next, and then doing that on reaction egging onto ledge or waveland from platform then egging onto ledge gives you a huge intuitive feel for where you put eggs. There really is not a trajectory in any part of the stage Yoshi doesn't have 2 or 3 egg throw variations to cover. It feels a lot more consistent then I thought I could be with that. Really, you just follow how they are flying in the air and it can become 2nd nature to know where to put the egg. Sniping is probably the most satisfying thing about Yoshi. xD

http://youtu.be/HFVtRV_VQDs?t=3m26s If only Randal wasn't there XD
Over the last few days I've been thinking about how much I love Yoshi and ehhhhh idk I don't think I can drop him if I wanted.

I have a bit of experience vs Samus. Parrying is guud, but you're going to want to know how to try and kill her once she's off stage. Eggs and fair work great, keep her in the air and use up smash, as she's a floaty with not amazing aerial mobility. Try to learn how and when you can kill her and take punishes really far. She's kinda big, so maybe if you can't combo off of a fair and kill with uair, just dair her to tack on way more percent than you could otherwise. Or something.
Don't get hit by her scary strong moves. They are strong and scary and break armor.

 

[Sashimi]

Hello @ Peanutphobia ! I enjoy watching your sets at Xanadu every Wednesday.

Purpletuce is right about Yoshi Bomb and commentators. It would be nice if they understood Yoshi better

 

[hamyojo]

http://challonge.com/dime11
Lost to Jake13 and Lunchables at a big TX tourney, which is basically a regional for a bad region. It was about a 50-60 person turnout or so, so getting 5th is pretty fun.
Pretty exciting matches today.
1. Had a very close set with Jake13's Fox. He won game 1 on Yoshi's rather handidly, but I spent a long time thinking about what I was doing wrong before going in to game 2, which I won on Battlefield. Game 3 he CP'd me to Dreamland, and apparenlty I was up 4 stocks to 2 but he had a good comeback. He camped me really hard, I got scared and approached when I shouldn't have. I rarely get to play against that kind of Fox... Really wish I still won.
2. Moophobia's Peach beat me back in the day(Many moons ago), but he's since switched to Falco. Yummy Falco. I won game 1 on Yoshi's, he won game 2 on Stadium (I wasn't playing my best, but he was playing very well.) game 3 was nearly a 4 stock on BF... until he nearly turned it around and almost reverse 4-stocked me! I managed to win, but was taught once again that I shouldn't be lazy for that kind of thing. Falco scary.
3. JF played Sheik. Generally he's a Falco main I believe, but his Sheik is good too. I was pretty scared, but made myself not think about it too much... it payed off. Game 1 was Yoshi's, and it was close the whole time. He was in the lead until the last stock, until I got a few combos and a tech chase>dsmash. Game 2 he two stocks me on FoD. Eugh. I didn't let it get to my head. Game 3 I go to Battlefield and stay in the lead the whole time, beating him by parring his grab. I couldn't believe it. Playing Sheik the past two weeks or so helped me so much in that MU, it's really game changing for me. Might have to try picking up Peach for similar reasons...
4. Penguin I usually lose to, especially since he's realized how bad Yoshi is vs Falcon. Today I decided to just... not approach as much and wait more better. Game 1 I win on Yoshi's, Game 2 he wins on Battlefield, and game 3 I counter pick him and win on FD. I still feel really lost in that MU, but I was so glad I was able to clutch it out today. This set's recorded, hope we see it soon.
5. Lunchables' Marth. Him and I played a ton back in the day, and we now meet in every bracket at the weeklies and still hang when we can. We go back and fourth. Game 1 is Battlefield, I win barely. Game 2 is Battlefield, he wins barely. I decide I want more stage for him to have to figure out how to control, so I go Stadium rather than FD, as he banned Dreamland. He beats me rather handidly, but some of it's due to bad plays on my part and crappy stage transformations. He says if it was a 3/5 set and I got to take him to Dreamland he'd counter pick Young Link. Campy chars are scary. Time to try and study the YL MU.

I really, really, really enjoy getting to play people who aren't from DFW... It's such a... fresher experience. I guess I should travel more. I really hate not knowing how to constantly and effectively keep my mind games on point when I only play with people who know me well. It's soooo much fun getting to play people who don't know me. Next chance I get I'm going to try and travel, I feel like I need to.

 

[BigglesWorth]

http://youtu.be/HFVtRV_VQDs?t=3m26s If only Randal wasn't there XD
Over the last few days I've been thinking about how much I love Yoshi and ehhhhh idk I don't think I can drop him if I wanted.

I have a felt that pain. xD Eggs can be used in so many ways. Jumping back, jump canceled short throw egg (sorry I don't have terminology for all the specific egg variations) is really helpful against peach since you are feinting out of fair or nair as she is coming down and the egg comes in front of you grazing the character model. Egg has a lot of hitstun so you can get like a fsmash even I think sometimes I think (usmash or utilt probably more consistent). There was one match where amsa double reversed egg with a backwards throw arc that if done a few frames earlier would have covered every single tech option when his opponent landed on the top platform (I think it was vs Mango or Wesballz, not sure). I see another yoshi just barely misspace I can feel the pain surging through my being; its eggscrutiating.

 

[kofinater]

thoughts on some cool last stock/deep edgegaurds? http://youtu.be/6iePvUPSCaY?t=7m48s I did this last friday and have been theory crafting the use of reverse ece and i think this is the scenario. Instead of the nair, reverse ECE until they are recovering low then invulnerable nair. Haven't practiced reverse eces enough for it to have crossed my mind during game but i think i'll practice them more now. Other thing i've been doing is on battlefield bair to hit fox/falco out of fire when they recover low then rdjc fair to trade when they have to go straight up. here is the setup, but he didnt upb http://youtu.be/Ce1Ts1E1t94?t=3m10s

 

[hamyojo]

thoughts on some cool last stock/deep edgegaurds? http://youtu.be/6iePvUPSCaY?t=7m48s I did this last friday and have been theory crafting the use of reverse ece and i think this is the scenario. Instead of the nair, reverse ECE until they are recovering low then invulnerable nair. Haven't practiced reverse eces enough for it to have crossed my mind during game but i think i'll practice them more now. Other thing i've been doing is on battlefield bair to hit fox/falco out of fire when they recover low then rdjc fair to trade when they have to go straight up. here is the setup, but he didnt upb http://youtu.be/Ce1Ts1E1t94?t=3m10s

Whoa, love these, I definitely laughed out loud. All this stuff is pretty risky, but not in a bad way. It's awesome how well you understand Fox/Falco's up b hitbox off stage, it looks like that's really coming in handy for ya. I'd rather not go so deep unless it's last stock like that, but even then I play it safe and d-smash/nair them on where they go while I stay on stage.
I gotta say that if there's one part of Yoshi's meta that doesn't need to evolve (but it'd be great if it did!) is edge guarding most characters like Spacies. He's so good at that and it's so fun.

 

[Purpletuce]

Trading with Fair is definitely a thing I've done many times before, see about 10 posts before yours... and in those last stock situations where you can afford to go out and burn your dj to mess with spacies UpB, that is definitely a thing as well. My favorite one I ever pulled wasn't recorded, but I've managed to drop down, then grab the firebird with neutral B, and fastfall it to kill them off the bottom.

Be warned, if you mess it up, and just get hit with a spacie UpB, you'll probably get punished really hard.

 

[kofinater]

ya...i've lost a bunch of game going for stuff like this, I missed the fall off back air against a falco in a mm and got shine spiked at like %10 and lost the gamel. I played more conservative game 3 haha.

 

[Kimimaru]

I'd say only go for them if you're ahead or need to take the risk in a close set. I've actually started doing these as well, but like everything else remember to mix it up. The only thing I dislike about Yoshi in Melee is his extremely risky offstage edgeguards.

 

[Purpletuce]

The ONLY thing? What about when you're playing on PS, and you shield on one of those little platforms/lips... and all you can do is roll in place, spot dodge, or grab? That is pretty annoying. . .

Edgeguarding spacies is something I wish I were more consistent at though. . .

 

[Kimimaru]

Sorry, I placed "only" in the wrong spot. My first sentence should read: "I'd say go for them only if you're ahead or need to take the risk in a close set."

I'm not sure where the PS part you mentioned fits in the discussion. Were you replying to me?

 

[Pabmyster]

I think he meant the part where you said,

The only thing I dislike about Yoshi in Melee is his extremely risky offstage edgeguards.

Btw i'm new to these boards Been lurking for a while, but now that I've been maining Yoshi pretty seriously for the last month, thought I would chime in with some discussion :D

 

[Sashimi]

Yoshi discussion has been particularly great lately (imo), so you picked a good time to join. Welcome to the Yoshi boards!

 

[Kimimaru]

Oh yeah; not being able to jump OOS is the other thing. Welcome to the boards Pabmyster!

 

[hamyojo]

Oh yeah; not being able to jump OOS is the other thing. Welcome to the boards Pabmyster!

Lets be like Scar and not know if Yoshi can spot dodge or not!

 

[Pabmyster]

Thanks!
So on a first point of conversation for me, I'm having some trouble with the Pika MU among others, and two of the better players in my region/local area are Pika players, so this has kinda posed a problem for me. I'm almost 100% sure this has already been discussed in this thread at one point or another, seeing as it's a Vman thread, but since I'm incredibly lazy and don't feel like scrolling through pages of text, I wanted to here some other opinions lol.

I've watched a few of Vman v. Axe vids, but that's a whole other level of play since they play so often, so maybe some general tips would suffice?

For one, I noticed that Yoshi's forward tilt stuffs/trades with Pika's nair, which really gave me trouble at first until I figured that out. Also, I think parrying his nair is always a good option since it's Pika's best/most used aerial approach and is thus predictable, which can lead to a DJC nair of your own. Another thing I noticed from watching Vman, is that Nair is a really good option almost all the time, and fair is a really good combo starter (like it is on every other character). Reverse ECE is a great way of keeping the Pika on his toes during recovery, same with yoshi bomb ledge stall, as they force him to guess whether to up-b onto stage or go for ledge. That makes DJ ledge grab also a good option if they are off stage and you can predict them going for ledge.
And pivot grab --> dthrow is really useful and can lead into fair/other combo options. D-tilit is a good spacing tool due to its set knockback, so it can be used as a kind of, "get off me" move. Not sure if jab-->jab is good shield pressure, but I think it might push Pika out of shield grab range.

That's all I can think of from just watching/playing a few matches that I hope to implement. What else is there to know vs. Pikachu? And please correct me if I'm wrong about anything (sorry if I am)

 

[Purpletuce]

Are you around Captain L?

Yoshi Fair is a good tool for beating approaches, and is good to catch jumps oos. Your fair is a really good tool because it outranges most of Pika's options, and the combo game is definitely your biggest asset. Especially your juggle on Pika.

Reverse ECE is good, but in all honesty, nobody does it. No need to do it, just get better at aiming your eggs. Especially since Pika's UpB makes his hurtbox huge.

Pivot grab is just silly. It is harder to pull off, and less rewarding than most options.

Jab on shield is a last resort against any character.

 

[Sashimi]

I don't think you really need to worry about Pikachu's grab range anyway. Focus more on your spacing (Fair is especially good for this) and you can easily outspace shield grab and potentially get something much more rewarding than jab if they do fall for it and whiff a grab.

If you misspace an aerial and are worried about getting grabbed (or caught by any OoS option), parrying can be useful too.

 

[hamyojo]

Pika's scary, but super manageable. Generally, Yoshi eats up characters that often cross up on Sheilds like Pika. Parry dat Nair.
Be scared of him breaking armor early, as he is rather strong (uair, Nair, usmash). Fair is nice. Pika's sheild is kinda bad so poking with bair works pretty well.

 

[Pabmyster]

I'm not around Captain L. My region is just a bunch of nobodies right now (our scene is pretty new).

80% of the time Vamn used a variation of WD back --> grab, or dash dance grab he would get a solid conversion with a Uair juggle or fair tech chase, so i'd like to think grab is generally a good option if you can land it. I don't generally see bair being used, but it could be great to use on shields as hamyojo has stated it pokes his shield very easily. And yeah I wouldn't generally pressure a shield with jab jab, as it's pretty desperate. maybe if Pika's in his shield near the ledge you can double jab into a djc nair/bair/ high fair?

On another note, does anyone here use the 20XX hack pack? If so, have you come up with any parrying practice methods? there is sure to be a very efficient way, more so than with regular Melee, seeing how many training tools the hack provides.

 

[Sashimi]

Yeah, the 20XX hack pack is okay for practising parrying. The spacies shield pressure options are good for parrying, and I like to practise my shield pressure by parrying the auto-out of shield options you can make the CPUs do.

Grab is good to land but hard to land and super punishable. I wouldn't try to rely on it too much. If you're going to grab, use dash grab.

Edit: Forgot to mention that playing against real people is still the best way to practise parrying.

 

[Purpletuce]

I haven't really watch vman vs axe recently, but I'm just going to say grab won't answer many questions for you. It is hard to land, doesn't give very good returns, and is punished hard for whiffing. Against Pika, it might literally be your worst move, after sideB.

 

[Kimimaru]

Hey Yoshi boards!

I’m a yoshi player from Maryland and I’ve been meaning to post here for a while. First off, I just wanted to say thanks for the awesome info thread @ Sashimi ! It’s super informative! Secondly, I wanted to ask about yoshi’s down-B. I’ve heard several commentators say that it has more knockback at the top of its hitbox; and I really don’t use it enough to know if that’s true. So, can someone confirm that?

Additionally, I’d like to hear people’s thoughts on the Samus matchup. I don’t have much Samus experience in MD/VA but fortunately Violence has moved here so hopefully that will change soon. I’d especially like to hear @ Kimimaru ’s opinion, because when I talked to Violence about his experience in the matchup, he noted that he played you quite a bit.

Also, thanks for all the cool discussions here guys; I’ve been lurking for a little while but I’ve learned a lot from y’all. =]

Hey I'm really sorry; I overlooked this and almost forgot about it. I'll give my feedback on the MU tomorrow.

 

[Pabmyster]

True that. Yoshi's grab has never been that good lol.
The reason I asked about the 20XX hack pack was because I only get to play people every other week, if that. =/
I try to do those methods too, just thought maybe there was some secret training method that people might use

 

[Kimimaru]

@ Peanutphobia As Violence mentioned I have played him quite a bit, and he actually got me used to the Samus MU.

In general, you don't want to be too aggressive since Samus has a very good defense. She will CC pretty much everything you throw at her and because she is floaty, heavy, and has a great recovery, she will usually live for a long time. Bring her to small stages (Yoshi's) and stages with low ceilings (PS). FD isn't bad either, but Yoshi is much better when he can use platforms. FoD is good as well but I don't like it very much.

On a fresh Samus stock, you'll want to rack up percent until she can no longer CC most of your moves (~70-80%). F-air, D-tilt, and Egg Lay are great in that they can't be CCed and often put you in a good position, which is underneath Samus. Well-spaced U-airs are essentially impossible for her to deal with when she's above you. Watch out for her bombs since they make her hurtbox tiny and can cause you to take extra percent.

Parry her missiles and slowly inch your way forwards. You want to corner her and force her into the air. Egg her jumps and fit in U-airs when it's safe to do so (Ex. she's in hitstun from an egg).

After this comes the tough part; getting the kill. U-smash is your best killing option once she's in the air, but if she's recovering use eggs/ECEs to destroy a bomb or catch her grapple. It's painful, but you must be patient and willing to accept that she can make it back safely. Keep knocking her offstage or up in the air and you will secure the kill eventually.

Recovering against Samus is tough since she has several quick, powerful moves that will break your armor fairly early. U-tilt and F-tilt are the ones that come to mind. Her Super Missiles also pose a problem. If possible, try to recover high since it'll always give you the option to go down to the ledge with Yoshi Bomb (Down + B). ECEs will get her away from the ledge, but be careful about doing them when she's very close.

So in short, play patiently. On extra CC-happy Samuses, I like to mix it up by using D-air. Even if they D-smash you (which is almost guaranteed to happen), you will win the exchange unless you're at a high enough percent to get killed or edgeguarded.

I unfortunately don't have many videos of myself playing against Samus, but I had a very close tournament set with Darrel and beat him in friendlies several times. Violence is a less aggressive Samus player. I usually go fairly even with him, but strangely enough we have yet to play in a tournament match.

In any case, I'll leave you with this video here that shows how switching from an aggressive to a patient playstyle enabled me to take the game from a 1 stock deficit (this was an actual tournament match; it's Game 2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcR_RDtGaGg&index=6

 

[Peanutphobia]

Thanks so much! This is super helpful and just what I was looking for. I'll definitely keep these tips in mind the next chance I get to play Samus. I never would've thought to use a d-air crossup on Samus! I really appreciate all the help guys.

 

[Purpletuce]

Can you also add how difficult you think the MU is?

For that matter, I would like to see some player opinions on the various MUs. In particular Kimimaru and Hamyojo's opinions.