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SelfPossessed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
170
Reposting old unanswered questions and added a few new ones.

1) Can Wolf do a boost Pivot Grab like Falco can? If so, is there any combo potential, perhaps after a grab release on certain characters? Maybe we can buffer the boosted Pivot Grab?

2) I asked this before but, has anyone tried experimenting with footstool combos? Wolf unfortunately lacks good vertical momentum stopping moves, the only two being up B and side B. I can hit with side B after an aerial footstool (not sure if it's guaranteed), but the damage is pitiful and I can get punished right after. :( Maybe there's a possibility dealing with footstool -> fire bouncing?

3) Has anyone tried looking for Dair combos? It has a good chunk of hitstun at certain percents. I think Captain Falcon's Dair has somewhat similar hitstun, and he has a Dair -> Footstool -> (finish combo) at 65%. That's a stock. Unfortunately, Wolf's doesn't seem to AC like Falcon's...

4) What kind of shield pressure game does Wolf have aside from Bair? The only time I've seen shields get small is against defensive opponents like Snake and D3 if they shield the Bairs overzealously. Is there anything else Wolf can do here? He seems to lack good multihit moves, a good poke move with IASA frames, a move that really depletes shield, and a way to seriously punish a shield break. :(

5) Why did the weekly move discussion die? Other boards are doing something similar and I think every bit helps. I really wish that threads like it (such as matchups and zones) had a separate thread for each though...

6) How useful is the retreating pivot grab? According to the testers, he slides as far as his initial dash animation. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231916

8) Does Wolf's Fair outrange MK's Fair, or must we just get lucky and hit inbetween his Fair strikes?

9) What is Wolf's best combo when punishing a failed tech? I'm thinking specifically when you knock someone who is shielding off of a platform and they hit the ground in a sprawled position. Nair and Bair, if timed right, seem to force getups, which guarantees another additional hit.

10) Is jump shine viable as a juggle tool? It stops enemy Dairs and more importantly ends fast enough (Uair ends too late if not ACed) that you can probably punish an airdodge right after.

11) How do you DACUS after a SH FF Bair? Like, do you buffer in dash attack (flick control stick and cstick, not holding as holding destroys buffer) then time a Usmash? Or do you wait for the Bair to land before inputting the DACUS? I can't seem to land this thing.

12) For returning from the ledge, how viable is ledgejump shine -> illusion cancel or DJ? I'm currently relying too much on ledge options that use my DJ. Whenever I guess wrong and get hit, I don't have a DJ to make it back anymore.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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The only thing I can confirm for you is dair combos. Dair can combo into utilt if it comes out right before landing, and also usmash. The percent windows are somewhat narrow, but human reaction time might allow for some more possibilities.

:059:
 

SelfPossessed

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
170
13) Falco can...chaingrab Wolf in place apparently. See 2:52 of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74PwggxKPmc&feature=channel_page . Is this ledge specific like D3's infinite on Wolf? Or is it just buffered grabs like Pikachu's Dthrow CG? Does this increase the percentage that Falco can CG you?

Even with the chainspike tech discovery, it still feels like Falco dominates Wolf. Even Koskinator's Wolf got destroyed by Alphican's CG happy Falco recently. It looked like he was trying to quarter circle DI and tech, but when the Dair didn't come out he ended up air dodging to his doom. He was rusty though, so his teching wasn't up to par. Hrm.
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
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2,502
13) Falco can...chaingrab Wolf in place apparently. See 2:52 of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74PwggxKPmc&feature=channel_page . Is this ledge specific like D3's infinite on Wolf? Or is it just buffered grabs like Pikachu's Dthrow CG? Does this increase the percentage that Falco can CG you?

Even with the chainspike tech discovery, it still feels like Falco dominates Wolf. Even Koskinator's Wolf got destroyed by Alphican's CG happy Falco recently. It looked like he was trying to quarter circle DI and tech, but when the Dair didn't come out he ended up air dodging to his doom. He was rusty though, so his teching wasn't up to par. Hrm.
LOL yeah if the falco messes up like taht and u airdodge, wolf dies. That's why u dont tech until u actually get hit by the dair spike.

It's very possible to fight in a way so that u dont get grabbed. You can fight this way until ur over 40%. Fighting this way also damages falco too so ur not even at a percent disadvantage. After that wolf can fight falco no problem.

Falco's stationary grab isn't very practical caz usualyl the falco wants to be moving forward to the edge. I'm not sure if it increases the damage, but it shoudln't be a problem if it does because of what i menitoned above. Btw jon, get AIM so you can ask me questions there instead of PMing me all the time
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,502
Even with the chainspike tech discovery, it still feels like Falco dominates Wolf. Even Koskinator's Wolf got destroyed by Alphican's CG happy Falco recently. It looked like he was trying to quarter circle DI and tech, but when the Dair didn't come out he ended up air dodging to his doom. He was rusty though, so his teching wasn't up to par. Hrm.
Just saw the videos of koskinator getting destroyed.

Here they are if anyone's interested. It's a good guide for how to NOT fight a falco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RTTdmoV1LU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvdA8wBNJ4I

Here is another video of koskinator losing in a MM to another falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnyIR-BWT1M

And I would've ***** those falcos pretty badly. Falco does not dominate wolf as much as koskinator made it seem like.
 

xxCANDYxx

Smash Lord
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if a person plays a falco thats on the sm level skill as your wolf...then wolf should not win imo...........NOTHING beats a campy falco.......ive played acouple campy falco's in EC....and there isnt much many characters can do about it...and wolf is no exception....i just think all the falco's you play arnt high level falco's so it really doesnt prove anything
 

Vorguen

Smash Champion
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Vorgy = RGV = Brownsville, Texas
Wolf has some crazy things on Falco that Falco's just don't expect. I used to beat Falco's with Wolf.

Strategy:

blaster blaster blaster blaster

let him reflect plenty

get to 35%

commence fight

go for gimp (not hard to do, since blaster knocks their vertical momentum to hell)
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
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2,502
well candy knows what he's talking about so I am going to believe what he's saying. Until I see how I do against a good campy falco, I won't give any definitive statement about the wolf vs falco match up.

I do stand by what I say about the chaingrab though. If falco does indeed dominate wolf, it's not caz of his chaingrab
 

xxCANDYxx

Smash Lord
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yea the cg isnt really a problem...a good wolf can easily play around it
im not saying that a good wolf cant beat a good falco
a good wolf that knows the matchup REALLY good can beat a good falco....but im not sure if it would stay the same if the good falco also knew the matchup REALLY good
like me for instance...i usually love playing against falcos....even at cot4 some random falco player wanted to MM me so i said sure...and the 1st 1 i ***** him....and then he said "ok let me play you like i would in tourny"...and oh em gee laserssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss and runs away with fowardB ..........after that match i just gave me the money and didnt bother with the 3rd match b/c i felt like there was nothing i can do
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
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CO
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So, just a simple question from a Peach main...

What is the assumed reasoning for Wolf's low placement on the tier list?
I've seen the little bondage creature do some scary things, but maybe it's just my Peach bias. >_>

Is it the bad recovery? Uhh... other... bad aspects I could list...?
 

SelfPossessed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
170
I just finished finals and decided to give Wifi another try.

Holy hell, how do you space and punish. That's my entire game atm and it doesn't work at all online. D: I know it's doable as I've seen other people do it. >_<

I end up spamming moves and running away a LOT because all of my timings are off. I can't even FF at the right time. Any tips for not getting so senselessly destroyed?
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,502
I just finished finals and decided to give Wifi another try.

Holy hell, how do you space and punish. That's my entire game atm and it doesn't work at all online. D: I know it's doable as I've seen other people do it. >_<

I end up spamming moves and running away a LOT because all of my timings are off. I can't even FF at the right time. Any tips for not getting so senselessly destroyed?
i suck on wifi too. IMO it makes me worse at the game, but there are lots of wifi pros who are amazing IRL like adhd and anti that sort of makes wifi credible.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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I agree, wifi just screws everything over.

@ Meno: I'm not quite so sure myself. Wolf has some killing issues unless your opponent doesn't DI dsmash, the recovery is a smaller problem compared to that IMO. It might just be his rep though, if us wolf players step our game up and go to more tournies and do well, people could change their mind. Who knows.

:059:
 

SelfPossessed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
170
Wifi makes you predict more, but it's frustrating when you lose because you can't get a simple move to come out right. Ah well, practice makes perfect I guess.

Still, I played a few people enough times to realize I'd have lost even if it was an offline match. I'm getting destroyed lol.
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,502
would you guys believe me if i told you nair was the best horizontal di move?
That is very interesting. Maybe people's concept of momentum cancelling was wrong and rather than the aerial that ends the fastest, maybe its the aerial that starts the fastest... and wolf's neutral air is his aerial that starts the fastest
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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I recall Zen saying something like this earlier. This is compared to bair > double jump, right? Did you FF the nair, and does that even help?

I think that people said fastest aerial to finish so you could double jump, but I'm not quite sure. Can you elaborate, JCav?

:059:
 

JCav

Smash Lord
Joined
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I recall Zen saying something like this earlier. This is compared to bair > double jump, right? Did you FF the nair, and does that even help?

I think that people said fastest aerial to finish so you could double jump, but I'm not quite sure. Can you elaborate, JCav?

:059:
no nair is the absolute best move to use, im positive

get hit by falcon punch

hold up

nair

fast fall

double jump

you will live longer than bair.




i even tested bair and immediately using illusion or fire wolf.

from the center of battlefield after getting hit, wolf can survive a metaknight d smash untill 184%

up air ( i think, ill have to check my videos, im at school lol) but i think you can live till 183%

back air till 182%


all of these are fast falled and double jump



i can also make a video if you guys wanna see it, i suck at explaining things and i could do that
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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I see... But I have a question about this:

i even tested bair and immediately using illusion or fire wolf.

from the center of battlefield after getting hit, wolf can survive a metaknight d smash untill 184%

up air ( i think, ill have to check my videos, im at school lol) but i think you can live till 183%

back air till 182%


all of these are fast falled and double jump
Is the first % for nair? If so, then that means it goes nair, uair, and then bair, in terms of effectiveness... but bair and uair come out at the same time and uair lasts longer. I'm starting to wonder what really slows down knockback...

:059:
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,502
make a video please =). This is all really exciting. New things with wolf always interests me =O
 

JCav

Smash Lord
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ok so im in the middle of making this video but i got homework to tend to now but i may be able to finish tomorrow

does anybody mind if i make a new thread for di?
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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^ Go for it, you don't need to ask permission to post a thread, especially when it's going to be constructive :p

I might be able to do some testing on this as well tomorrow, I'll try out some other characters to find out if it's fastest move to end or fastest to start, or something else entirely.

:059:
 

JCav

Smash Lord
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^ Go for it, you don't need to ask permission to post a thread, especially when it's going to be constructive :p

I might be able to do some testing on this as well tomorrow, I'll try out some other characters to find out if it's fastest move to end or fastest to start, or something else entirely.

:059:
yeah i think ill do this for all the characters i play, this whole di thing confuses me...
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,502
yes and they did ok, its just the fact that the competition there is as good as it gets
No kidding. No matter where u were in the bracket, whoever u faced in the 2nd round of the winners bracket was RIDICULOUSLY good. (I got lucky and got atomsk 2nd round -_-'' )

also, wolf is really really hard to be consistent with (imo, one of the hardest characters to learn) and gets C/P'd ***** sooooo badly. Currently, a lot of successful wolf mains usually have strong alternates, such as omniswell [wolf/IC/MK], Kashakunaki [Wolf/Falco] and zen [Wolf/Falco].

I go all wolf, which is pretty inconvenient sometimes caz against good players, I usually HAVE to win on the first neutral stage caz their C/P sometimes means an autoloss for me. But hey, wolf is fun and I just get better after every loss to a certain match up that I'm not particularly strong against.
 

CO18

Smash Hero
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Im starting to use wolf but Im not gonna drop Dedede obviously since hes still my favorite character but Im still going to try to use him as much as I can and get better with him. I won a small tourney saturday using wolf alot. My wolfs only pretty good right now Id say. I still need to work on some technical things and obviously just getting experience with him.
 

BIGM1994

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No kidding. No matter where u were in the bracket, whoever u faced in the 2nd round of the winners bracket was RIDICULOUSLY good. (I got lucky and got atomsk 2nd round -_-'' )

also, wolf is really really hard to be consistent with (imo, one of the hardest characters to learn) and gets C/P'd ***** sooooo badly. Currently, a lot of successful wolf mains usually have strong alternates, such as omniswell [wolf/IC/MK], Kashakunaki [Wolf/Falco] and zen [Wolf/Falco].

I go all wolf, which is pretty inconvenient sometimes caz against good players, I usually HAVE to win on the first neutral stage caz their C/P sometimes means an autoloss for me. But hey, wolf is fun and I just get better after every loss to a certain match up that I'm not particularly strong against.
Same here my mains are wolf/MK
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
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Im starting to use wolf but Im not gonna drop Dedede obviously since hes still my favorite character but Im still going to try to use him as much as I can and get better with him. I won a small tourney saturday using wolf alot. My wolfs only pretty good right now Id say. I still need to work on some technical things and obviously just getting experience with him.
A good player that isn't a Wolf main picking up Wolf?

Sounds good, you better **** Florida with him.
 

Master Raven

Smash Master
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Equi used to rep Wolf in FL and was quite good but he stopped playing for a while and now he's kinda wanting to get back into it again but pretty rusty right now. >_>
 

BRoomer
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LessThanPi
Gindler... Wolf is my other other sub. I'll show you at the next smashfest. I think my wolf is level with or better than my sheik.
 

Semifer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
212
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Germany
So I saw a video of JJ glide tossing bananas but he slides crazy far and when I do it wolf barely goes anywhere, wondering what I was doing wrong? (is the timing mega tight compared to most or what)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49PkrNJmxg&feature=related

Lol, yeah I was surprised CO picked up wolf. I just picked him up like a week ago as well. which is why I'm here
Wolf has one of the worst glide tosses in the game, what you saw was Dacit (Dash attack cancelled item toss).
It works the same way as Dacus, but the timing is more difficult and you have to tilt diagonally UpB to throw forward or back.
 
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