Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[-LzR-]

Shame we will never play

 

[DRD]

I'm a total beginner in brawl- I went to a local fling today and I did well until the final match (the finals were only one match- I'm working on getting the tournament professionalism up a bit). It was against a lucario who, from all my watching of his matches, was definitely very scrubby- just a random guy who plays the game every other weekend for an hour or so.

But I was just destroyed because I could not predict that lucario's rolling. It was his only form of transportation. Roll, roll, roll, some random attack,- there really wasn't a pattern- but when there was and I guessed correctly, I missed because the time between lucario's rolls is so **** small. So I ended up losing and it leads me to ask, what do you guys do against players who play in a similar fashion? I only got one match against him and of course if I had another match I just would have switched to a projectile character and spammed him until I was blue in the face. Or swiped at him once and then just ran away. I guess I'm just complaining cause I'm a whiny *****. Yeah, that's probably it.

I'm still curious what you guys would have done.

 

[NH Cody]

Punish his rolls lol. Observe when he rolls and bait it - Marth has great options for that, like DB, pivot grab, retreating fair if he rolls behind you, etc. If he throws out random attacks like fsmash then just shield and then grab or DB or something.

 

[ScareMl]

I'm a total beginner in brawl- I went to a local fling today and I did well until the final match (the finals were only one match- I'm working on getting the tournament professionalism up a bit). It was against a lucario who, from all my watching of his matches, was definitely very scrubby- just a random guy who plays the game every other weekend for an hour or so.

But I was just destroyed because I could not predict that lucario's rolling. It was his only form of transportation. Roll, roll, roll, some random attack,- there really wasn't a pattern- but when there was and I guessed correctly, I missed because the time between lucario's rolls is so **** small. So I ended up losing and it leads me to ask, what do you guys do against players who play in a similar fashion? I only got one match against him and of course if I had another match I just would have switched to a projectile character and spammed him until I was blue in the face. Or swiped at him once and then just ran away. I guess I'm just complaining cause I'm a whiny *****. Yeah, that's probably it.

I'm still curious what you guys would have done.

the bad news is that lucario's roll happens to be very good. the good news is, marth is very good at punishing rolls. walk toward him and shield (try to space yourself out of potential grab range). if he rolls behind you, step forward and db behind you. if he rolls away, dash and db him. if you're coming in w/ a sh ff fair and he rolls behind you then grabs you, then the next time, do a sh ff u-air/bair to punish him. and if he's frustrating you with the rolls, stop approaching and overcommitting, which you probably are doing. back off, be patient, do the mikehaze, then wait for another opening.

 

[Lord Chair]

the bad news is that lucario's roll happens to be very good. the good news is, marth is very good at punishing rolls. walk toward him and shield (try to space yourself out of potential grab range). if he rolls behind you, step forward and db behind you. if he rolls away, dash and db him. if you're coming in w/ a sh ff fair and he rolls behind you then grabs you, then the next time, do a sh ff u-air/bair to punish him. and if he's frustrating you with the rolls, stop approaching and overcommitting, which you probably are doing. back off, be patient, do the mikehaze, then wait for another opening.

If you're outside of his grab range, shielding, you won't really be able to shield drop and punish all of his options like that. Shielding messes up your ability to react.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, getting better at shielding less (more so 'less' in duration) is a less talked about skill facet.

 

[Orion*]

stand at the range lucario wants to roll behind you in, you can essentially just pivot grab // turn around grab // standing grab depending on the range you are in on reaction if you are primed for it and at the right spacing.

Learning when to poke in with dtilt safely will be harder in the long run

 

[Richard 89]

i need help with spacing, how do i space with marth?

 

[zmx]

i need help with spacing, how do i space with marth?

Go into training mode and try to understand the ranges of all his moves. Every single one. You can't learn how to space well if you have no idea what his hitboxes are like.

Visualize them in your head if you can.

When people talk about good spacing, they generally mean you can apply pressure and do attacks that are safe if whiffed thanks to your positioning. AKA they can't be punished especially on block.

Literal "good" spacing can't be explained in mere words. You really have to practice it.

Spacing well with Marth is better rewarded than possibly any other character in the game thanks to tippers so he's certainly one of the best characters to understand basic spacing with.

There's also the concept of burst/dash ranges but that's a little more advanced. For now try to master the basics.

 

[NH Cody]

okay well it's good that you asked that question because it's really important. The basic idea of spacing is to attack at a safe distance where your opponent cannot immediately reach you and counterattack. If you're using fair, then there are a few ways to space. You could run up and do an sh retreating fair to shut down approaches, you could do a full hop fair if your opponent is tall enough (it would probably be a bad idea to do this against Kirby), or if you want to land with fair then drift slightly away from your opponent as you do the aerial. If you're using ground attacks like Dancing Blades (DB), then you could start the attack when you are at tipper distance from your opponent. This way it deals more damage if it connects or it would protect you from a shieldgrab if you're fighting a character with a particularly short grab range.

So basically try and space with fair by retreating while swinging your sword. In general you should try to attack from tipper range.

 

[zmx]

okay well it's good that you asked that question because it's really important. The basic idea of spacing is to attack at a safe distance where your opponent cannot immediately reach you and counterattack. If you're using fair, then there are a few ways to space. You could run up and do an sh retreating fair to shut down approaches, you could do a full hop fair if your opponent is tall enough (it would probably be a bad idea to do this against Kirby), or if you want to land with fair then drift slightly away from your opponent as you do the aerial. If you're using ground attacks like Dancing Blades (DB), then you could start the attack when you are at tipper distance from your opponent. This way it deals more damage if it connects or it would protect you from a shieldgrab if you're fighting a character with a particularly short grab range.

So basically try and space with fair by retreating while swinging your sword. In general you should try to attack from tipper range.

To add to this, don't fall into the habit of always approaching with short hop fairs. A lot of low level Marths after first learning how good his fair is try spamming it this way and they become super predictable and easy to beat. Do not fall into this trap.You always want to mix it up.

Also depending on the matchup you might not want to be in the air a lot at all even though generally he has great followups in the air.

Also one really good tool for Marth is fastfalling. You definitely want to master this so you can mix it up with SHFF Fairs, Full Hop Fast Fall fairs etc.

Oh and I almost forgot.

How do you generally move? If you roll a lot that's bad. You do NOT want to rely on that to adjust your spacing. Do not underestimate walking and dashing in this game. That is generally how you want to make minor adjustments to spacing.

 

[NH Cody]

well yeah I thought that was obvious lol

focus on reads and don't always do the same kinds of approaches...and use DB more as a punish tool than an approach tool /general insight

 

[zmx]

It's pretty obvious perhaps to you and I, but to someone who hasn't played Smash (or any Fighting game) competitively before, it might not be so obvious.

I've told people before to use X move/approach because it's really good only to face them next time and have them ONLY do that approach over and over lol. So I wanted to make it clear that's not what we mean this time.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Why not just make it clear the first time ?

 

[Richard 89]

It's pretty obvious perhaps to you and I, but to someone who hasn't played Smash (or any Fighting game) competitively before, it might not be so obvious.

I've told people before to use X move/approach because it's really good only to face them next time and have them ONLY do that approach over and over lol. So I wanted to make it clear that's not what we mean this time.

so basically i need to try to keep a good distance while attacking.
i usually don't roll often i sidestep most attacks but i sometimes roll backwards if i think my character is threatened by my opponent.

i know we never battled zmx but do you think we should, to analyze just how i battle with marth?

 

[NH Cody]

You shouldn't be overusing either the roll or the sidestep lol. Use shield to block attacks unless you think your opponent will grab, and then you may consider rolling or spotdodging (aka sidestepping) to avoid the grab and then punish

 

[Nicholas1024]

Is there a Marth Skype group anywhere? The Pika boards have had one for a while now, and I've found it to be a great way to practice and to learn, so I've been wondering if the Marth boards have anything similar (or if there'd be any interest in setting one up).

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

There is one, if you let us know your Skype name someone can add you I believe.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Alright, thanks, my Skype name is Nicholas65536.

 

[Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku]

What is the best way to space against ICs? Both grounded and in the air.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

@Nicholas - Apparently I need to add you as a contact before I can add you to the group. I sent an invite, and if you accept then I'll add you.

The safest way to space against ICs in the air is to only retreat aerials- all of your aerials reach further than theirs, so it's not difficult. Spacing on the ground is a bit tougher, and I've found it's best to just abuse platforms rather than staying on the ground. If that isn't an option, spaced Dtilt is very powerful.

 

[ScareMl]

@Nicholas - Apparently I need to add you as a contact before I can add you to the group. I sent an invite, and if you accept then I'll add you.

The safest way to space against ICs in the air is to only retreat aerials- all of your aerials reach further than theirs, so it's not difficult. Spacing on the ground is a bit tougher, and I've found it's best to just abuse platforms rather than staying on the ground. If that isn't an option, spaced Dtilt is very powerful.

retreating fair, fh fair are also good ground options. ICs can't grab this on shield. fall with nair or u-air (good shield push). wavebounced db and sb in mid-air can get you out of bad juggle situations that may lead to grabs

 

[Nicholas1024]

Alright, thanks for your help.

Anyway, what should Marth do after being D-thrown by MK at higher %'s? If I DI up I get shuttle looped, but if I DI down that leaves me in a bad edgeguard position (assuming I'm not being tossed across stage). Is there some other course I could take, or is this just a "Don't get grabbed" situation?

 

[ForwardAirRage!]

if he is chasing you, I just fair. if he is spacing and being patient, (assuming he is grabbing you off ledge) gravity downwards and up-b. its lower percents when its more scary i think. but up-b is also another good option if he is chasing you and he is baiting your air dodge or something.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Up and away, and then what F-air said.

 

[smashkng]

Is GR to tippered Nair2 guaranteed on G&W? If so it could really help us to kill in the MU.

 

[-LzR-]

Thanks to SDI it's not.

 

[NH Cody]

I'm pretty sure GR to fair is guaranteed but idk about nair...

 

[ScareMl]

Is GR to tippered Nair2 guaranteed on G&W? If so it could really help us to kill in the MU.

Thanks to SDI it's not.

sdi? I think he means if you do grab release to second hit of nair only.

 

[smashkng]

Yes I mean the 2nd hit of Nair without the first one connecting.

 

[C.J.]

I can almost guarantee you can't. fair is a fairly tight window as is because of his upB. no way you can purposefully whiff the fast part of the attack

 

[ForwardAirRage!]

I can almost guarantee you can't. fair is a fairly tight window as is because of his upB. no way you can purposefully whiff the fast part of the attack

I Agree and I tested this. no way its Guaranteed

 

[C.J.]

Buffered uair might work. Someone should text that. Actually, someone should test uair in place of fair on all the GRs

 

[clowsui]

I still can't do GR -> Uair vs MK -__- give me the window for that and I will start testing other stuff way more reliably

 

[NH Cody]

What are some strategies for fighting Diddy Kong?

 

[clowsui]

Refer to CJ's Diddy Kong guide

 

[NH Cody]

LMAO I was JUST ABOUT to edit "inb4 clowsui directs me to ancient outdated guides." Yes I have seen that thread. I was looking for someone else's perspective.

and does CJ even have a diddy kong player near him? lol.

 

[clowsui]

Ancient outdated guides? It doesn't matter if the guide is ancient lol. If the information is accurate it should still be read, no? Also it was written w/in the last year o_O

And it doesn't really matter who CJ plays with because various individuals such as Mike, myself, Nike, Raz, Ramin, etc. have benefited a lot from the information in the guide/attest to its accuracy. In the case that you DO think it matters, CJ plays with Mampam, Redhalberd's brother. This guy is PR'd in FL and has multiple good wins.

You should be more specific in any case. What about the MU are you having trouble with specifically?

Spoiler

and as a side note, I'm beginning to think you have a vendetta against CJ or something lol...

 

[C.J.]

Chi, the timing for GR-uair on mk is basically identical for GR-dair. You just have to be careful not to usmash instead of buffer uair.

I wanna start doing GR-usmash on mk tbh. it *should* trade with dair/ maybe nair and beats uair/jump if they're expecting dair. Charge beats AD. Idk, seems fun.

 

[ForwardAirRage!]

GR- Nair on meta is my favorite though. can lead into other types of attacks and reads. pretty much jumpstarts momentum.