Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[DMG]

Well that's only looking at part of the picture though. What about if you do include mixups? Add bombs, AGT directions, FF's, Airdodge direction + timing variations, tether cancel into Upb, etc. For a lot of characters, once your window of action is gone (usually when he's stuck pulling the first bomb, or if you can harass him from an angle that AGT doesn't help against), you should probably be way clear of the edge and/or anywhere offstage and instead focus on trapping him onstage when he tries to get back on. He covers his tether weaknesses fairly well: even someone who probably doesn't like Lucas can get away with a lot due to airdodge.

 

[Booster]

Not at all, infact some characters need better recoveries like Roy

 

[kchamp523]

Not at all, infact some characters need better recoveries like Roy

Umm, I think Roy's recovery is perfectly fine. It doesn't go that far but it's hard to edgeguard it. Sethlon doesn't seem to have much trouble getting back to the stage most of the time.

 

[kchamp523]

woops, can someone delete this post for me?

 

[Jiggly]

I don't think anyone has a recovery that really "ruins" the meta game. Lucario, Rob, Pit, and charizard sure got buffed, but all these characters aren't super fantabulous, the best being pit. The top teirs don't have amazing recovery, so it seems that it isn't pushing the meta all too much.

 

[Bleck]

I've spoken in defense of good recoveries, but I also think it'd be generally better if Pit, Charizard and Meta Knight couldn't glide.

 

[Jiggly]

I've spoken in defense of good recoveries, but I also think it'd be generally better if Pit, Charizard and Meta Knight couldn't glide.

I think Zard deserves the glide, but the other two would be okay without it.

 

[DMG]

Glides that are specifically tied to recovery/free fall are probably ok.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I've spoken in defense of good recoveries, but I also think it'd be generally better if Pit, Charizard and Meta Knight couldn't glide.

You realize the glide is a life or death situation for zard?? The same can't exactly be said for mk, but he is in a very limited situation after he commits to an up B. The only glide that stands out, out of the ones you lumped together, is pits. It's obv the best and most flexible out of the bunch. If he does a bad glide, there is no penalty.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Recoveries are pretty balanced the cheap recovery is Pit in my opinion and the Recoveries are better than melee so why are we even taking about this!

 

[Thamauturge]

This doesn't seem like a yes or no question. I think that quite a few recoveries are really stupid, but on the whole PM recoveries aren't typically OP.

Mario and Diddy though; forget them lol

 

[Life]

If [Pit] does a bad glide, there is no penalty.

LOL

by which I mean kind of chuckle derisively a bit because seriously who actually laughs out loud when they type out LOL

EDIT: I suppose I shouldn't act like that if I'm not going to explain what I mean.

Pit gets exactly one glide no matter how many times he gets hit (not counting grounded glide and that's irrelevant here). If he loses it, he has to rely on jumps and up-B to get back. His upB sweetspot isn't great and a lot of things outrange fair.

Compare to, say, Sonic's recovery, where he gets a whole lot of distance no matter how many times you hit him offstage.

That's not to say Pit's recovery isn't good, but it's not nearly as good as a lot of people think it is.

 

[Bleck]

You realize the glide is a life or death situation for zard?? The same can't exactly be said for mk, but he is in a very limited situation after he commits to an up B. The only glide that stands out, out of the ones you lumped together, is pits. It's obv the best and most flexible out of the bunch. If he does a bad glide, there is no penalty.

I agree - but I don't believe that they should be changed because they're "too good", rather that I think gliding is just a thing that shouldn't be in the game.

I don't actually have a good reason for this, I just don't feel good about it.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Them wings were meant for flyin

 

[Raijinken]

I voted No. Longer life = higher percent = more risk = more fun to play and watch.
Besides, most of my characters err on the side of average-to-mediocre recoveries.

There are a few that I think are too good (Pit and Lucas in general, Mario, Diddy, and Metaknight in some stages), but I don't think they're too strong on the whole. Places more emphasis on killing outright instead of hogging the edge, which is a change I will never disagree with.

 

[Nazo]

I voted No. Longer life = higher percent = more risk = more fun to play and watch.

You also have to keep in mind that higher percents also tend to encourage more keep-away and campier play styles which, by popular opinion, isn't fun to play or watch.

I'm not taking sides, just pointing something out.

 

[EclipseKirby]

Compare to, say, Sonic's recovery, where he gets a whole lot of distance no matter how many times you hit him offstage.

This is my main problem with certain recoveries: recoveries that seem to get around the design of edgeguarding and recovery. Recovering is designed so that you have the options to recover, but each option had restricted usages of other limitation. The point of those limitations was not just to differentiate good recovery and bad, but to reward edgeguarding. Every time the recoverer gets knocked away after using a non-upB recovery option, they have to start over with fewer options, either because the option is no longer available, it gets worse, or the option alone isn't enough to recover high with.

If a character falls in line with this, I'm not too bothered by their recovery, even if it's good. It's when a character gets around it, either with a stall that doesn't seem to weaken, horizontal recovery that is repeatable reusable with little height loss, or have an nigh-unedgeguardable option that it starts to bother me,

 

[shairn]

Chipping at your opponent to 200% until you land a random fsmash is a lot more boring than getting a good gimp at 30%

 

[Raijinken]

You also have to keep in mind that higher percents also tend to encourage more keep-away and campier play styles which, by popular opinion, isn't fun to play or watch.

I'm not taking sides, just pointing something out.

Player's choice of actions. I can't stand camping, so if someone starts camping, I go out of my way to ruin their "fun" for ruining everyone else's. Fortunately I'm at the higher end of my group of friends and can enforce that.

Chipping at your opponent to 200% until you land a random fsmash is a lot more boring than getting a good gimp at 30%

I don't disagree with what you said there, but I do disagree with the idea that a gimp is more fun than a high-damage kill in general. Nothing beats a satisfying tipper (as a Marth main) or Knee of Justice on someone who is at such a high percent that they have no possible hope of DIing, teching, or otherwise escaping their certain demise.

 

[mtmaster]

I voted No. Longer life = higher percent = more risk = more fun to play and watch.
Besides, most of my characters err on the side of average-to-mediocre recoveries.

There are a few that I think are too good (Pit and Lucas in general, Mario, Diddy, and Metaknight in some stages), but I don't think they're too strong on the whole. Places more emphasis on killing outright instead of hogging the edge, which is a change I will never disagree with.

I have to agree with you at high percents especially when you and your opponent are on their last stock, its a massive thrill and makes the game more fun, as you know if you make the smallest mistake you could lose, but that is what makes it all more fun and exciting to me.

 

[Star ☆]

I think I just simply agree with the philosophy that the PMBR is trying to put forward; emphasing off stage edgeguarding and taking risks being the edgeguarding party rather than the recovering character constantly being at a disadvantage regardless of whether the on stage character is taking risks to take that quick KO or not. Recoveries should stay how they are and players should take more off stage edgeguarding risks rather than expecting an easy kill if someone is off stage like what happens in Melee with a lot of characters.

 

[mtmaster]

I think I just simply agree with the philosophy that the PMBR is trying to put forward; emphasing off stage edgeguarding and taking risks being the edgeguarding party rather than the recovering character constantly being at a disadvantage regardless of whether the on stage character is taking risks to take that quick KO or not. Recoveries should stay how they are and players should take more off stage edgeguarding risks rather than expecting an easy kill if someone is off stage like what happens in Melee with a lot of characters.

^ This. I know for me personally since I'm not all that great at edge guarding on stage (force of habit of not wanting to cliff hog people as it makes me feel like an ass, but that's another story all together), but I will always go off the stage to make sure you die, even at the risk of knowing I may kiill myself, which since I use characters like Sonic that almost never happens lol.

 

[Star ☆]

^ This. I know for me personally since I'm not all that great at edge guarding on stage (force of habit of not wanting to cliff hog people as it makes me feel like an ***, but that's another story all together), but I will always go off the stage to make sure you die, even at the risk of knowing I may kiill myself, which since I use characters like Sonic that almost never happens lol.

If you're willing to go all the way it is quite easy to kill yourself as Sonic after doing an offstage edgeguard. If a character such as Ganondorf is recovering versus you, a Side B from the ledge towards Ganon into a fair works well but can kill you if you go too far for it. This is also similar to homing attack off stage when the other character is low, the cooldown can last long enough to drop you into the blast zone.

 

[mtmaster]

If you're willing to go all the way it is quite easy to kill yourself as Sonic after doing an offstage edgeguard. If a character such as Ganondorf is recovering versus you, a Side B from the ledge towards Ganon into a fair works well but can kill you if you go too far for it. This is also similar to homing attack off stage when the other character is low, the cooldown can last long enough to drop you into the blast zone.

This is true, but these are things that have to take into consideration when you go out there, and have to be fully cognizant of your character's limits no matter who they are. I will only go out to a point where I know I can come back without accidentally kill myself, which also depends on who it is I am fighting against.

 

[Star ☆]

This is true, but these are things that have to take into consideration when you go out there, and have to be fully cognizant of your character's limits no matter who they are. I will only go out to a point where I know I can come back without accidentally kill myself, which also depends on who it is I am fighting against.

And this is precisely the reason I like the better recoveries and the emphasis on off stage edgeguarding; it is entirely the on stage player's decision as to whether they want to take the risk and go off stage to try and take a stock at the expense of a possible trade or even SD.

 

[shairn]

The problem is that characters' recoveries can often only be challenged by characters with similar recovering ability. So many times have I gone incredibly deep with Marth or Sheik, to the limit from where I can recover just for the other to come right back, no problem. Moreover, if a character's upB can go further alone than my double jump, stalling and upB allow me to go out, there's nothing much I can do to edgeguard them.

I can't believe we're talking about edgeguarding Ganon, honestly. Let's talk about Metaknight, Mewtwo, Lucas, or Mario. It's much more dangerous for you to go out and try to kill them than it is for them to challenge your edgeguard attempt while they're recovering. When you're knocked off-stage, you should always be at a disadvantage. Hate getting gimped early? Get good on-stage.

 

[Deleted member]

Just you wait. The people saying that recoveries should be nerfed across the board will start panicking once it finally sinks in that their mains are included in "across the board."

Fox main: "PM RECOVERIES 2 GUD."
*increases landing lag on Fire Fox*
Fox main: "NOOOO, I meant all the other characters!"

 

[wewewezing]

Some of them honestly, Mewtwo's seems a little OP, but that's just because he can still attack afterwords

 

[shairn]

Just you wait. The people saying that recoveries should be nerfed across the board will start panicking once it finally sinks in that their mains are included in "across the board."

Fox main: "PM RECOVERIES 2 GUD."
*increases landing lag on Fire Fox*
Fox main: "NOOOO, I meant all the other characters!"

I'll agree with the extra landing lag, even in Melee edgeguarding Fox was a chore.

 

[Narpas_sword]

When you're knocked off-stage, you should always be at a disadvantage. Hate getting gimped early? Get good on-stage.

Why?

why should ALL characters have their game based around good ground? good aerial characters are essential for variation.
And if a character is good in the air, it follows that if theyre fighting someone who isnt, you want to keep that person off the ground.

 

[shairn]

Why?

why should ALL characters have their game based around good ground? good aerial characters are essential for variation.
And if a character is good in the air, it follows that if theyre fighting someone who isnt, you want to keep that person off the ground.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this explicitly on another thread, but I'm fine with a better than average recovery if the character has to put in more work on the stage than average. But that's not currently the case in PM for some characters. In short, if you want your character to be great on stage and killing in general, I think you should be ready to accept that you're more likely than not to lose a stock if you get knocked off-stage.

 

[Star ☆]

I'm not sure if I mentioned this explicitly on another thread, but I'm fine with a better than average recovery if the character has to put in more work on the stage than average. But that's not currently the case in PM for some characters. In short, if you want your character to be great on stage and killing in general, I think you should be ready to accept that you're more likely than not to lose a stock if you get knocked off-stage.

I agree with this statement to some extent. It is true that characters with good recoveries should have lesser on stage control but characters with more on stage control should have less recovery but I do not think it should be a massive swing in either one direction or the other.

And when you said the off stage player should always be at a disadvantage, think about it this way; if the other player is recovering it is both the result of the off stage players negligence in getting hit and the on stage player's judgement of what percentage the character needed to be KOed.

What I'm trying to say is that the recovering player shouldn't always be at the disadvantage if they know how to recover properly to avoid the opponents edgeguard because they decided to get the other player off stage before they could die. Going off stage for a gimp or easy fair is a good alternative to this. Players need to take risks and have smart play to either edgeguard off stage and also recover smartly.

I might be talking a bit roundabout and repetitive here but I think it is both player's fault and disadvantage by letting themselves get into a situation where making the wrong choice can result in death.

 

[Fortress]

Is this seriously still a topic. Is the vote seriously still in favor of 'yes'. Can people still not ledgeguard. Is it 2015 yet.

 

[shairn]

I agree with this statement to some extent. It is true that characters with good recoveries should have lesser on stage control but characters with more on stage control should have less recovery but I do not think it should be a massive swing in either one direction or the other.

Yeah, I'm not saying every character should be a glass cannon or a tank.
I honestly am having trouble understanding what point you're trying to make.

And when you said the off stage player should always be at a disadvantage, think about it this way; if the other player is recovering it is both the result of the off stage players negligence in getting hit and the on stage player's judgement of what percentage the character needed to be KOed.

Okay, the player is recovering because he got hit at a reasonable percentage. What are you trying to make me see with this?

What I'm trying to say is that the recovering player shouldn't always be at the disadvantage if they know how to recover properly to avoid the opponents edgeguard because they decided to get the other player off stage before they could die. Going off stage for a gimp or easy fair is a good alternative to this. Players need to take risks and have smart play to either edgeguard off stage and also recover smartly.

Assuming the recovering player knows how to"recover properly" and the on-stage player knows what these options are and the ways to cover them, the edge guarder should have the advantage. If a character has an overwhelming amount of options that makes keeping them off-stage a hard read, you're actually at a disadvantage when you try to cover any of them and I think that's silly.

Going off stage for a gimp or easy fair is a good alternative to this

A good alternative to what?

 

[Star ☆]

Yeah, I'm not saying every character should be a glass cannon or a tank.
I honestly am having trouble understanding what point you're trying to make.

I completely agree with you on this sentiment; there should be balance. No tanks or glass cannons in that regard.

Okay, the player is recovering because he got hit at a reasonable percentage. What are you trying to make me see with this?

Just that it's the on stage players fault that they didn't hit them off at a percentage that would kill them and they have to deal with predicting how the player they hit will recover.

Assuming the recovering player knows how to"recover properly" and the on-stage player knows what these options are and the ways to cover them, the edge guarder should have the advantage. If a character has an overwhelming amount of options that makes keeping them off-stage a hard read, you're actually at a disadvantage when you try to cover any of them and I think that's silly.

I do understand what you're trying to say here about the hard read. I guess it does rely on how many options the edgeguarding player has to counter what the recovering player can do.

A good alternative to what?

Staying onstage to edgeguard.

Okay, you've kinda convinced me and I agree that some characters need a bit of options toned down to sway it a bit more in favour of the edgeguarding player however I do not think it should be completetly in the edgeguarding player's favour at all times like it commonly is in Melee.

 

[TimeSmash]

LOL

by which I mean kind of chuckle derisively a bit because seriously who actually laughs out loud when they type out LOL

This is probably the quote of the day haha

Also Sheik's recovery is crap bananas, actually it's worse than crap bananas. Bananas filled with crap are better than it

 

[Une]

I don't think anyone has a recovery that really "ruins" the meta game. Lucario, Rob, Pit, and charizard sure got buffed, but all these characters aren't super fantabulous, the best being pit. The top teirs don't have amazing recovery, so it seems that it isn't pushing the meta all too much.

Lol

what is this Mewtwo character even

 

[The_NZA]

Okay, you've kinda convinced me and I agree that some characters need a bit of options toned down to sway it a bit more in favour of the edgeguarding player however I do not think it should be completetly in the edgeguarding player's favour at all times like it commonly is in Melee.

Pray tell, why not? Its good game design for being "punished" for being knocked off stage. Similar to how you hsould be "punished" for being hit (the whole reason why combos are good game design).

If hitting an opponent put you at a disadvantage, that would be bad counterplay (you can rationalize crouch cancelling, because CC makes it so you have to hit your opponent intelligently in order to continue a string). If knocking an opponent off stage is advantageous to them, that's not really great design...

 

[Master WGS]

My argument is that recoveries can come back from too great a distance. Whether or not they're safe on their return didn't factor into my voting "yes."

Sure, there were Melee characters who could recover from HUGE distances, but they were in the minority. In PM, even if you don't make it back safe, you still take forever COMING back from what should have been a done deal.

In regards to time it takes to kill someone, recoveries are too good and should be widely toned down. My thoughts are 100% time-based, not safety based. This game takes too long.

 

[Raijinken]

Pray tell, why not? Its good game design for being "punished" for being knocked off stage. Similar to how you hsould be "punished" for being hit (the whole reason why combos are good game design).

If hitting an opponent put you at a disadvantage, that would be bad counterplay (you can rationalize crouch cancelling, because CC makes it so you have to hit your opponent intelligently in order to continue a string). If knocking an opponent off stage is advantageous to them, that's not really great design...

Issue is, rationalizing CC works just as well for rationalizing the recoveries. If you don't hit them intelligently (most every recovery has some weakness) in a way that reduces their ability to recover, then you deserve to be punished for failing to exploit the weakness of their recovery style, just as CC is justified because it punishes you for "mindless" play without consideration. The true issue arises when a recovery is TOO flexible, such as Diddy's, and possibly the Mario Bros and maybe Lucas, and Metaknight. Those sorts that don't have a ready weakness to exploit are the ones that need to be toned down. Others (Emblemers, Spacefurries, Links, Ness, to name a few) are pretty much fine, as their recovery options are narrow, and it's not hard to attack such that you can hit them out of reasonable recovery range.