Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[Searing_Sorrow]

What is it with PM and people saying this? Pretty much anyone with a move that cancels into a jump is technically demanding and there are a lot of people in the cast like that. And of course the higher the lvl of game the higher the technical skill demanded.

While I don't know why everyone else says it, the reasons why I say ness is so difficult is
1. Magnet cancels are the equivalent of wave shines, combine this with djc, magnet dashes, and that is a tech challenge too great for most players.
2. He has all the difficulties of being a spacie and more, without the benefit of having an overpowering neutral game.
3. Even buffed, pk thunder 2 is still in the bottom epsilon of recoveries in the game due to the sheer number of characters capable of punishing it to loss of stock, and the few random stage factors capable of messing with it.
4. And saddest of all, none of your friends will like you as soon as you say pk fire. Jk on that,(though true) four is that being asked to play at a hi degree consistently over and over in a tournament means your less likely to win due to lack of consistency.
Example: Playing crimson viper over wolverine in umvc3, just as good , but 5 times harder to utilize and play with.

 

[JOE!]

After watching KDJ vs Pink Fresh on stream, I have to say that Z tethers are kinda dumb...

Like, the folks with tether-only recoveries need the flexibility since that is their only means of getting back and they still have limited options once hooked onto the edge. Those with Z tethers have normal Up B's, other non recovery specials that aid in recovery (oddly, all their Down B's with Bomb Jumps and Magnet stuff), and can get an additional "jump" with invincibility frames with an air dodge->tether.

I'm not sure how to fix the issue here (maybe remove the ability to AD->Tether?) but something doesnt seem right about how free it is for them to get back with so many options

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Needs more nerf

 

[Chevy]

After watching KDJ vs Pink Fresh on stream, I have to say that Z tethers are kinda dumb...

Like, the folks with tether-only recoveries need the flexibility since that is their only means of getting back and they still have limited options once hooked onto the edge. Those with Z tethers have normal Up B's, other non recovery specials that aid in recovery (oddly, all their Down B's with Bomb Jumps and Magnet stuff), and can get an additional "jump" with invincibility frames with an air dodge->tether.

I'm not sure how to fix the issue here (maybe remove the ability to AD->Tether?) but something doesnt seem right about how free it is for them to get back with so many options

Melee Z-tethers. You get one, and there's no auto-snap. Keep ZSS' and Ivy's the way they are, change Samus, Link, Tink, and Lucas to have melee tethers. There's consistent behavior and the counter-play is a lot easier at a base level. At this point I'm sure it's just a technical hurdle but I believe in the PMBR.

 

[JOE!]

Ok, if melee tethers cannot be implemented for whatever reason though, what then?

 

[Chevy]

They could still limit it to one tether per airtime, that would nerf Samus right into the ground in certain match-ups. Seems like the most elegant solution though.

 

[SpiderMad]

They could still limit it to one tether per airtime, that would nerf Samus right into the ground in certain match-ups. Seems like the most elegant solution though.

Right now the limit is 3, so reduce that to 1; and then if you do another without having touched stage you'd then still go into specialfall or would you then implement just the tether not to work or something so you don't die?

I need to read more posts or something to make me appreciate Melee tethers more, right now I don't think they were all that cool or skillful besides seeing Sami getting accurate aim on BF's ledge I guess

 

[Une]

hell yeah they are. prob my least favorite thing about PM are some of the dumbass recovries characters have

 

[Chevy]

Right now the limit is 3, so reduce that to 1; and then if you do another without having touched stage you'd then still go into specialfall or would you then implement just the tether not to work or something so you don't die?

I need to read more posts or something to make me appreciate Melee tethers more, right now I don't think they were all that cool or skillful besides seeing Sami getting accurate aim on BF's ledge I guess

Better that the tether just doesn't come out and you do an aerial instead.

I appreciate Melee tethers because they were consistent. I hate that in Brawl z-airs behave entirely different because you are an arbitrary distance from the ledge. Melee tethers also enabled a lot more versatility while recovering. Instead of having one good option(snap to ledge), you had many ok options and there was actual counterplay. You can aim for the sweetspot(which is risky but rewarding), you can do a grapple jump(easy but likely to be punished), you can just aim for the spot on the wall you want to jump up from, and you can wall jump after touching the wall or do anything. Plus it created a few really cool ATs. It's just endlessly more interesting and actually requires some amount of skill to use.

 

[-Dubs]

Most of the viable Melee characters have poor recoveries compared to the rest of PM.
Also, I think edgeguarding with would be a lot smoother if I still had my Shine invincibility...

 

[SpiderMad]

What cool ATs? I think you can still do the rising grapple

 

[Chevy]

What cool ATs? I think you can still do the rising grapple

You can do rising grapple, but not if you are near and facing the ledge, as it'll auto-snap. I guess you can do rising grapple on your 4th tether currently, should it come up. Other than that, in Melee there's a trick with rising grapple and z-tethers where you grapple jump as you tether the stage, but break the tether to put yourself in free fall which you can interrupt with any aerial. It's like the coolest recovery tech of all time and it looks goofy as all hell.

 

[KayB]

Just want to an ask an honest question hopefully aiming for an honest response.

Does anyone think glides are too good? If not, why?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Just want to an ask an honest question hopefully aiming for an honest response.

Does anyone think glides are too good? If not, why?

I think glides look really dumb. Don't know about if they're too good or not, but they look really out of place to me.

 

[JOE!]

Only Pit's is too good since he can jump from it and do it twice

 

[Phan7om]

I dont feel glides should be able to go as far as they do now, thats all really. If they went about the length of Pika's side-b it'd be perfect.

 

[CORY]

Only Pit's is too good since he can jump from it and do it twice

well, he can only do it twice if the first one is started off the ground >.>

but the recovery you can get from it is pretty nutty.

 

[JOE!]

The other glides are fine because:

1) MK's is kindof impractical due to the start up from the shuttle loop that you can punish, and he loses all jumps if hit

2) Charizard loses all jumps just for performing Glide, and is a huge target to hit

 

[CORY]

mk should lose all his jumps because he just used his upb, not necessarily because he's hit ;x that's how it works for most characters, afaik... (losing your jumps after you upb, because you upb'd).

zard's glide eating his jumps does feel dumb to me. i agree here : /

 

[Life]

On glides:

MK's and Zard's glides are really weak, no issues there.

There's a huge thread over on the Pit boards about whether Pit's recovery is too good; personally I think that while it goes a long horizontal distance, he doesn't have very many options: going high still means he has to come down and he doesn't have a safe dair to do that with, going under the stage is only possible sometimes and most characters are fast enough to get over there anyway, and going anywhere close to the opponent risks getting hit back offstage, where Pit's recovery without the glide is mediocre. Also his vertical recovery isn't fantastic (although you still have to watch you don't get hit with shield bash because that can kill you).

On tethers:

They're a little strong right now, not a lot of counterplay unless you have a longlasting hitbox such as Mario nair, but on the other hand they're not a whole lot stronger than PM recoveries as a whole. ZSS could use some slight buffs to the angles at which tether will catch, as apparently getting screwed out of tether when it looks like it should connect is a common complaint; IMO Lucas' is a bit longer than it looks like it should go. Ivy needs hers the way it is.

The only other recoveries I can think of that could use a looking-at are the teleport recoveries, but not enough people play those characters around me for me to really have a solid opinion.

 

[JOE!]

Bumping this, but just a random thought:

Should Z-tethers be able to be Edge-hogged, given the characters also have Up B's and other means (Bomb jumps, etc) to get on stage?

 

[Chevy]

Bumping this, but just a random thought:

Should Z-tethers be able to be Edge-hogged, given the characters also have Up B's and other means (Bomb jumps, etc) to get on stage?

Nah, if for no other reason than consistency.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Bumping this, but just a random thought:

Should Z-tethers be able to be Edge-hogged, given the characters also have Up B's and other means (Bomb jumps, etc) to get on stage?

I haven't entirely thought the prospect through, but I wouldn't mind if something to that effect were applied. For example, tether reel-in could be slower (somehow) if the ledge is occupied, and/or instead of a ledgehop, z-tethers will just stop at the ledge and fall (not in a helpless state, but w/out the ability to air dodge).

 

[Exodo]

He recoveries are all fine imo, except some that should be buffed, Falco and Roy for example have the worst recoveries and it drives me crazy!!!

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

He recoveries are all fine imo, except some that should be buffed, Falco and Roy for example have the worst recoveries and it drives me crazy!!!

Falco is still very good, but brawl side b would not be too terrible of an add on to the character to keep up with the fact he gets no vertical carry on up b, and does generally worse in pm than melee. Aside that neither of these characters were meant to have good recoveries. At least Roy and marth can be greatful for no light shield easy edgeguards.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Is this topic still not settled?

The recoveries are fine.
People's skill as players are not.

Adapt.

 

[Life]

Is this topic still not settled?

The recoveries are fine.
People's skill as players are not.

Adapt.

Kish's quote in my sig seems appropriate here.

If I may sum it up as follows - what we're saying is that when I get hit by a car and my opponent takes advantage, I blame myself for letting myself get in a bad position. When you get hit by a car, you curse your bad luck and blame the stage for interfering with your match.

Just apply to recoveries instead of stages.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

What kishprime said
really does sound like a shot at k9 lol
KishPrime said:
If I may sum it up as follows - what we're saying is that when I get hit by a car and my opponent takes advantage, I blame myself for letting myself get in a bad position. When you get hit by a car, you curse your bad luck and blame the stage for interfering with your match. End quote

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ5YfR9gU1I

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What kishprime said
really does sound like a shot at k9 lol
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ5YfR9gU1I

I don't see the comment. What did it say?

 

[Life]

The quote is meant for the context of Melee, not PM.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

No need to be verbose.

To sum up...
If you're complaining about something THIS trivial, you suck.
Get better so there's no to whine about you being inadequate.

 

[NegroCaucasian]

can we just agree that you cant have characters with recoverys like wolf and falco with people like diddy kong and meta knight. people are fine with bad and good recoverys but not this wide spectrum of characters that are simple to edgeguard and have short distance (wolf, falco, falcon) and then people with great range, hard to punish and unpredictable (diddy kong, metaknight, mewtwo)

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

The quote is meant for the context of Melee, not PM.

Wasn't aware of that, it just fit so perfectly with that moment in the pm auction, you would have thought it was referring to that moment otherwise, thanks for the clarificati

can we just agree that you cant have characters with recoverys like wolf and falco with people like diddy kong and meta knight. people are fine with bad and good recoverys but not this wide spectrum of characters that are simple to edgeguard and have short distance (wolf, falco, falcon) and then people with great range, hard to punish and unpredictable (diddy kong, metaknight, mewtwo)

diddy and metaknight's recovery are not in the same epsilon as mewtwo's recovery. Up b of diddy's is very easy to strike with any character, and there is always punishing where he lands, the sweetspot is microscopic, and the rest is above stage.though the one side b in the air flip he gets, does admittably make him good horizontal and vertical. Still how many diddy's actually have won tournaments recently (excluding the oversatuation of diddy mains in Xanadu) if it was really as obnoxious as stated, would there not be profit? And if you are complaining about metaknight's recovery, take your SD card out and let the salt ensue

 

[The_NZA]

I wanted to air out some things about tether recoveries.

1. Some tether recoveries could afford to be slower-- ZSS snaps really quickly. O n hte other hand, Link reels up at a reasonable punishable rate. If it wasn't for grab release up b, he'd be a much more fair recoverer. I think The idea for tetherers to only grab the ledge once has a lot of implications on more than recoveries. For example, Link players like to hook the edge, drop pull bomb and regrab edge, so that they can jump onto the stage with a bomb loaded. That's pretty fair design for a character with mobility issues, and slow startup moves. Changing the amount of times a character can tether the ledge would have an effect on much more than just recovery.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Just because link's tether speed pull is slow, doesn't make it less obnoxious. There has been several times I point blank meteor spiked him with diddy's rockets while he was reeling in, and nothing happened. He may get some invincibility at a certain point when drawing in. Also zss's tether is fine, it is a rare instant where just holding on till she pulls in actually works, the speed is very fast so punishing it is harder than some other tether only characters.

 

[J3f]

While I don't know why everyone else says it, the reasons why I say ness is so difficult is
1. Magnet cancels are the equivalent of wave shines, combine this with djc, magnet dashes, and that is a tech challenge too great for most players.
2. He has all the difficulties of being a spacie and more, without the benefit of having an overpowering neutral game.
3. Even buffed, pk thunder 2 is still in the bottom epsilon of recoveries in the game due to the sheer number of characters capable of punishing it to loss of stock, and the few random stage factors capable of messing with it.
4. And saddest of all, none of your friends will like you as soon as you say pk fire. Jk on that,(though true) four is that being asked to play at a hi degree consistently over and over in a tournament means your less likely to win due to lack of consistency.
Example: Playing crimson viper over wolverine in umvc3, just as good , but 5 times harder to utilize and play with.

Currently Lucas's recovery has more options with his teher. I'd like to see Ness's Jumps get buffed. PK Thunder 2 really isn't all that useful against someone who can punish off stage. Ness should be more like Yoshi, great jumps with out an up B that can get you easily back on stage.

This would really help Ness out of Lucas's shadow.

 

[DMG]

Holy **** no Ness doesn't need that

 

[DrinkingFood]

If Ness's double jump went any further he'd SD off the top with every attempt.

 

[DMG]

If he jumped any higher, he would be banned from the NBA for dunking too hard

 

[The_NZA]

Ness's recovery is indeed perfect. Punishable but very strong and there's a ceiling that is still being explored.

As far as Link's tether, I'm going to have to disagree with people who say it isn't easily punishable when he's doing a standard reel in. If you take mixups out of the equation and its link just tethering and pulling up, he's pretty easy to edge guard with consistency. You might just be approaching the problem wrong?

Watch Hungrybox v. Armada's Young link from evo this year, and see how hungrybox punishes armada for his hookshots. There is a similar punish available for most of the PM cast. The tether only gets invincible (as I understand it) when he is close to or at the ledge itself.