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Are you crazy, if edge guarding anyone's recovery is a gamble, it's fox. Firefox above the stage? You pretty much have to guess where he's going. No extra landing lag and easy to sweetspot the edge from above, guess wrong and he either gets the edge for free or center stage for free. Granted, some characters can prevent him from finishing start-up of his up-b with good projectiles to cover options, but that's not the case for everyone.
Were we speaking melee , i would agree, fox upb was a lapse in judgement. In pm there are a plethora of characters that destroy the pause it takes for him to up b. Pit dk diddy Kong DDD jigglypuff link marth mewtwo. Not to mention characters like Samus falco sheik and Roy that aren't terrible at edge guarding him. I acknowledge in melee it was stupid, in pm it is just an ordinary recovery, initial pause characters shouldn't have too much lag after landing on top of that, the punish window is when they do the move. Example fox upb diddy upb . Now if it was as instant as marth or g&w with no land lag, that would be a problem.
i may be missing something here.
He means the punish level that many characters can give off of that is severely weak in comparison to guessing correctly on other character's recoveries. Admittably the most I get is fair side b or down smash, so could see the aggrevation for others.
I think you missed the point here. It's not that the recoveries travel too far a distance it's that they are too SAFE. I would love to see more edge play and whatnot but it's not "real skillful, invigorating, interactive gameplay" if people can return relatively unharmed 90% of the time, in fact that actually takes away the "depth to offstage fighting." IMO Melee currently has more depth to its offstage fighting than PM because you can actually go out there to gimp people by reacting fast to their recovery option. It's not too exciting when I'm forced to basically sit around and watch someone like lucas tether-in knowing I can't do JACK because tethers are near impossible to punish effectively with several characters. I will admit however, that SOME edgeguards can still be improved because the metagame is so young.
The only reason you would see your opponent return unharmed 90% of the time is because you are either being predictable with your edgeguarding and/or you are just not very good at edgeguarding in general.
I'd say that Lucas's magnet stall lets him come back from waaaaaaaaayyyy too far away and still be able to tether. It should have diminishing returns on every use, kinda like when you use Roy's side-b to stall
That's not how burden of proof works. No matter what your claim is you must provide evidence to support it. Don't act like saying "you guys r bad" gives you a free pass because it only makes you look stupid if you honestly think that is a sound argument.
I think the biggest issue with tethers is how non-committal they are. Tethers wouldn't be so bad if a tetherer couldn't detatch from the ledge and pick a different recovery option on a whim (think how Link can tether, see how you are grabbing the edge to intercept him, and before you do anything he can let go of the tether and upb).
Which is why the only sound argument on tethers was that z tethers should have the same drawbacks as regular tethers. No one suggest making it harder for zss or olimar to tether, but many have a problem with Samus and link being able to do both with no commitment to either. I will probably have to play more good dual option characters before I choose a side, though it does sound like a free pass back to the stage. imo though, if they opt to nerf z tethers, toon link's tether can stay as is, it is a staple part of his recovery shenanigans and he needs some buffs over link.
Actually yes, it does. If you want something to change, you need to explain why you think it should change and provide solid reasoning. If you can't do that, then things are going to stay the same.
I don't think you are really in a position to be calling anybody stupid, buddy, since your post failed to provide evidence of anything. Come back with a more mature retort once you've gotten around to posting your list of complaints.
I totally agree with this. I think something that could be a good fix is that if you use your z tether, you can't up-b afterwards. Then they would suffer the same drawbacks as characters with an up-b tether.
I'm cool with PKT2's killing power. You shouldn't get hit by that after a match or two, having played a fair amount of Ness players I've learned to judge when I can and can't intercept them. Once you know how long it goes and roughly how long Ness takes to shoot himself, it's very easy to punish, more so given the fact that you know for sure which direction he's going, unlike firefox or firebird.
For the record, ness's pkt2 knockback is around the same power as fox's sweep spotted. As a pikachu main, I found it easy to gimp ness because it kind of works like fox's, so I can do a low forward tilt and finish with an up air. Even better, that because he is floaty, you can kind of time yourself to get above ness so that when he does pk thunder, you can take the hit and his stock. Lucas is kind of dumb in that he basically has a down b that works like marth's, except he can do it more than once. If they could change it like that, it would make sense for the tether because lucas has a crappy mid air jump.
Or perhaps just give Ness a different "hype combo ender"? Get rid of PK Flash, no one likes that move anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Regarding ness, it is not bad enough that a random projectile can take your life line away. It isn't bad enough that you go at a predictable trajectory. It isn't bad enough that this move is even harder to sweet spot to the ledge than deep Kong, but you still want it to be nerfed? With all t:he triple option recovery characters ness is where it goes too far? Ignoring the fact that literally every disjointed attack hits him out of the move, what makes pk thunder 2 so o.p? IMO I actually think he should have a little bit more influence in the form of cancel points or holding back after hitting himself. Ness has been a bad character in three iterations, at least he is viable here, please don't ruin that lol.
Why are you ignoring how good Ness is onstage? Taking into account Zap Jump camping (well, PK Fire camping in general), this becomes of question of what's necessary and what isn't. If only the distance of PKT2 were to be changed--shortened, in this case, would it really have THAT much of an effect on how "bad" Ness is offstage? I would much rather give Ness the shaft in that aspect so there would be more room to change PKT2 where it matters, such as your aforementioned of idea of more control. Incidentally, shortening the distance of PKT2 would make keeping the initial explosion much more sensible.
I know that I'm strawmanning here, but: with or without the utility of PKT2, Ness' viability would remain the same, just saiyan. I mean... there's a reason why Awestin is currently the best Ness.
You don't even need to go for an attack dude, Literally all you need to do is jump at the pk bolt, get hit by it, and it will gimp Ness.
Try that **** on me in tournie. I beg you.
What is it with PM and people saying this? Pretty much anyone with a move that cancels into a jump is technically demanding and there are a lot of people in the cast like that. And of course the higher the lvl of game the higher the technical skill demanded.
Do you go to Xanandu?
I run Smashing Grounds. We pull pretty much the same entry numbers (90 last week).
Ness is literally overcentralized around one move. Technical potential or not, that one move is what the character is best at abusing.
For the sake of good design. Were you here for 2.0/2.1 Sonic? He wasn't borked, but quite a few of his assets had to give for him to follow the direction in which PMBR wanted PM to go in. Many players could argue that 2.1 Ike and Lucario were healthy for PM's metagame (e.g, "we need Fox-level newcomers"), but they too were changed for the sake of design. Why should any other character be exempt from changes if they ride on bad design choices? Why should any player be complaining about or questioning the validity of PMBR's "wisdom" in hindsight? Why leave unnecessary recovery options in this game despite them, by the definition set, being "predictable" and "easy to edgeguard"?
