Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't mind if Ivysaur got a new Up-B while her tether was relegated to Z-air, but I don't think that's possible to do, and getting rid of her tether altogether is pretty much out of the question.

 

[Praxis]

i suggest he stops playing such a tool...


hes sheik when he does that. As link, he drops a bomb, as ganon / zard he drops and Dairs. as zedla he Dins
i'm pretty sure 90% of the characters have a fairly safe option to intercept a tether. if they dont, then too bad.

Why should EVERYONE have a counter to EVERY recovery?

if your character cant intecept the tether, then edge hog and wait for the forced hop =/

Um, everyone should have a counter for everything. It doesn't have to be a good counter, but they should have something to hit their opponent with if they know exactly what their opponent is going to do.

I don't think Roy can do anything at all without dying.

 

[Bleck]

I don't think Roy can do anything at all without dying.

It doesn't have to be a good counter

Gave yourself the answer, here.

 

[GP&B]

Not having any answer on even the most average level is what gets your character exploited badly in an MU. If a character simultaneously has difficulty setting up a KO move and cannot handle tethers, they're going to have a miserable time. Roy manages to avoid this by having the former, but most of his problems come from being mangled on contact.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I agree with @ Praxis here. I also think nerfing tools that would have to buff many other characters to be fair is the better design than buffing all others to justify that tool.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Um, everyone should have a counter for everything. It doesn't have to be a good counter, but they should have something to hit their opponent with if they know exactly what their opponent is going to do.

I don't think Roy can do anything at all without dying.

Edgehog->edgehop->upair->fsmash/bair/flare blade/more up airs/utilt/grab depending on character and percent
With his quick DJ and fall speed he can refresh invinc quickly in case the try to smack him off only issue is characters with a Z tether plus a quick damaging up-b that can let go and use that to knock him off the edge once they tether and get him to wait for the reel in.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Um, everyone should have a counter for everything. It doesn't have to be a good counter, but they should have something to hit their opponent with if they know exactly what their opponent is going to do.

I don't think Roy can do anything at all without dying.

Just jump off the stage and DownB before you hit the blastZone then.
You obviously need a counter to death.


seriously though, does roys upb not gain enough height to hit a tether with?
what about >b?

i feel like drop >b then DJ and HUARRRRG up to the stage will cause the recoverer to have to think about a mix up.

what about dropping and djing a Bair? does Roy die after that?

 

[Praxis]

Just jump off the stage and DownB before you hit the blastZone then.
You obviously need a counter to death.


seriously though, does roys upb not gain enough height to hit a tether with?
what about >b?

i feel like drop >b then DJ and HUARRRRG up to the stage will cause the recoverer to have to think about a mix up.

what about dropping and djing a Bair? does Roy die after that?

Roy's up-B has terrible vertical reach. I'm fairly sure bair wouldn't work, you have to go pretty far down to get the lower part of a tether swing and Roy's up-B doesn't reach far.

Reverse up-B might be worth testing, I think it'd drag the opponent back on stage though. Nice way to hit him, but it wouldn't really dissuade them from tether recovering and it'd be super high risk for Roy if they decided to do something other than tether.

 

[Narpas_sword]

>b?

and what about edgehogging?

 

[yohoos]

hes sheik when he does that. As link, he drops a bomb, as ganon / zard he drops and Dairs. as zedla he Dins
i'm pretty sure 90% of the characters have a fairly safe option to intercept a tether. if they dont, then too bad.

I'm pretty sure Ganon/Zard's dairs are not good options against tethers, at least this shouldn't happen in high level play. Zard has nair which is much better and safer. Zelda's Dins don't do jack against tethers at best it tacks on like 10%.

Why should EVERYONE have a counter to EVERY recovery?

This would be fine if edgeguarding wasn't such a big piece of the metagame. It's like trying to justify why certain characters should only walk while others can run.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

You lot act like anything will come out of this sort of talk.
What is the reasoning behind that?

You think the PM team has the willingness and time to appease everyone, especially these sorts of players,
that is, the ones that go 'boo-hoo' and don't even bother trying to have a plan for the relevant scenarios, and get better?

When has the answer to vocal minorities EVER been one that made them happy, in the rare event they weren't treated as nothing valuable like they are? These sorts SHOULD be mad, it means the game maker is doing things well; behind every success story, as they say.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I'm pretty sure Ganon/Zard's dairs are not good options against tethers, at least this shouldn't happen in high level play. Zard has nair which is much better and safer. Zelda's Dins don't do jack against tethers at best it tacks on like 10%.


This would be fine if edgeguarding wasn't such a big piece of the metagame. It's like trying to justify why certain characters should only walk while others can run.

Or why some have multi jumps and others don't? why some have a sword? Projectiles?

I didnt say he always kills me with those, but he can get in the way and throw out A move to make sure i dont jsut get a free tether, i have to MIX UP.
im not saying these are hard counters, that would be bs, just that they force mixups. which is GOOD.

And duh, Din only does a little %. but, it also hits you into a position you can get Toe'd, or another Din, or many other things.

 

[Bleck]

why even like post on like a forum like you know I mean whoa

 

[MechWarriorNY]

We've devolved into complaining about other people complaining here.

Bandwagoning onto another age-old stereotype of smashers, and gamers in general, once more. Heh.

 

[yohoos]

Or why some have multi jumps and others don't? why some have a sword? Projectiles?

Multi-jumps have setbacks they make characters slower/floatier in the air. Swords/large disjoints are generally slow moves. Projectiles take up a move slot. Others have a different move to make up for it. There's always a balance somewhere.

For gimping/edge guarding tethers saying its fine for one group to do it but not another is like saying you should get 4 smash attacks but I only get 2. See what I'm getting at here? Some characters' inability to edgeguard certain recoveries aren't balanced by something in return.

I didnt say he always kills me with those, but he can get in the way and throw out A move to make sure i dont jsut get a free tether, i have to MIX UP.
im not saying these are hard counters, that would be bs, just that they force mixups. which is GOOD.

And duh, Din only does a little %. but, it also hits you into a position you can get Toe'd, or another Din, or many other things.

The thing is if you tether-cancel tether-retether a couple times you can generally avoid those single hit moves or just wait it out and reel in pretty safely whether he throws those moves out or not. Sure they might work in an unconventional sense but I don't see it as a viable option especially because if you miss those moves you end up in an awful position. And as for Din's I'll agree they are pretty good against UpB tethers cause it's literally a wall and you can combo off it. But for Zair tethers they generally aren't a problem still.

 

[yohoos]

We've devolved into complaining about other people complaining here.

Bandwagoning onto another age-old stereotype of smashers, and gamers in general, once more. Heh.

Nah just you but hey if you feel accomplished good for you.

 

[Daftatt]

Diddy, Roy, Squirtle, ZSS, Kirby, Lucas, Samus all have significant abuses possible in their recoveries, outside of that, the roster's recoveries are generally solid.

Diddy: The speed at which you fall during up-b is too slow, and it's dangerous to attempt to trade with his barrel blast.

Roy: AKA Roy's tether, let's be honest, his up-b is near impossible to edgeuard, the hitbox is massive and at a great coverage angle, and he will magnet over to the ledge from a large distance at the end of up-B

Squirtle: yes, up-b (waterfall) is good and has a great hitbox, but the real abuse is being able to w/draw from up high, then as soon as the opponent is about to throw out a hitbox to edgeguard, the squirtle can simply aquajet (press A during w/draw) to pop over them with impunity.

ZSS: Flipjump (down-B) is basically an entire 3rd jump with amazing lateral range, the tether has amazing range, but the further you tether from the easier it is to throw out a hitbox and interrupt the reel-in (thus gimping her), also she can't air dodge into tether like other tether users.

Kirby: For a character that can fly and isn't jiggs, assured horizontal recovery via down-b is a little crazy, especially given side-cutter.

Lucas: Down-B can stall and turn him around in the air, and he has a near unpunishable tether. Not to mention his actual up-b recovery.

Samus: Freaking tether stall, samus has historically had an amazing recovery, but tether stall is dumb.

 

[yohoos]

Diddy, Roy, Squirtle, ZSS, Kirby, Lucas, Samus all have significant abuses possible in their recoveries, outside of that, the roster's recoveries are generally solid.

Diddy: The speed at which you fall during up-b is too slow, and it's dangerous to attempt to trade with his barrel blast.

Roy: AKA Roy's tether, let's be honest, his up-b is near impossible to edgeuard, the hitbox is massive and at a great coverage angle, and he will magnet over to the ledge from a large distance at the end of up-B

Squirtle: yes, up-b (waterfall) is good and has a great hitbox, but the real abuse is being able to w/draw from up high, then as soon as the opponent is about to throw out a hitbox to edgeguard, the squirtle can simply aquajet (press A during w/draw) to pop over them with impunity.

ZSS: Flipjump (down-B) is basically an entire 3rd jump with amazing lateral range, the tether has amazing range, but the further you tether from the easier it is to throw out a hitbox and interrupt the reel-in (thus gimping her), also she can't air dodge into tether like other tether users.

Kirby: For a character that can fly and isn't jiggs, assured horizontal recovery via down-b is a little crazy, especially given side-cutter.

Lucas: Down-B can stall and turn him around in the air, and he has a near unpunishable tether. Not to mention his actual up-b recovery.

Samus: Freaking tether stall, samus has historically had an amazing recovery, but tether stall is dumb.

Diddy: I agree with barrel blast.
Roy: It is much safer than Marth's but because of how much less distance it travels it is easily edgehogged. And if nothing else, edgehogging will at least force roy into a bad position should he make it onto the stage.
Squirtle: I think it's fine that Squirtle can use withdraw to gain a lot of distance since he is very light and dies easily. I think Waterfall does not need a disjoint the size of his body. I don't have much Squirtle knowledge so I can't say for sure so I'm gunna rate this one as questionable.
ZSS: Once again, deserves the 3rd jump due to lightweight, but hate the tether.
Kirby: Once again, lightweight so deserves the extra distance in recovery. But I never thought about the DownB stall though. This could be looked into as Kirby definitely does not need a pound-esque recovery but then again, I don't think removing it would really change much.
Lucas: Yes DownB stall into tether is stupid. Who even uses Lucas UpB anymore lol.

 

[GP&B]

Flipjump should act as a second jump in the sense that you don't get it back if you used it in the air and got hit. This is the primary thing that makes her near un-gimpable.

 

[FreeGamer]

You guys do realize that Kirby burns a jump each time he triggers Stone, right? It isn't that safe.

 

[yohoos]

You guys do realize that Kirby burns a jump each time he triggers Stone, right? It isn't that safe.

Didn't realize that but yeah I no longer have a problem with it then.

 

[Rᴏb]

You guys do realize that Kirby burns a jump each time he triggers Stone, right? It isn't that safe.

That's why you use your jumps first. It's pretty good.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy: AKA Roy's tether, let's be honest, his up-b is near impossible to edgeuard, the hitbox is massive and at a great coverage angle, and he will magnet over to the ledge from a large distance at the end of up-B

Seriously? I mean really, come on now. You omit Mewtwo from your list of problematic recoveries, and then you proceed to include Roy of all characters?

I don't even understand what's going on anymore...

 

[Narpas_sword]

Whats going on is people who havent seen the 'How To Play' video in melee, with mario jumping out to "INTERCEPT" bowser, have figured out how to make accounts on forums.

 

[Bleck]

Whats going on is people who havent seen the 'How To Play' video in melee, with mario jumping out to "INTERCEPT" bowser, have figured out how to make accounts on forums.

Tell us more about how you're better than everyone.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Roy's recovery is really bad and all you need is a lingering aerial that can trade with his up-b (most sex kicks) or the ability to refresh Invincibility on the ledge at a reasonable rate.

 

[Scoob]

Tell us more about how you're better than everyone.

Your Pacman pic matches your comment so well.

My personal gripe with PM's recoveries is the same as my gripe about general balance. The PMBR is trying to make every character usable, and they succeeded so far as I can tell. The issue with their balance is that they seem to lack a baseline. What is a good recovery? What is an average recovery? If we say that, for example, Lucario is a character with pretty average recovery. He is our baseline. Compared to Lucario, Diddy Kong has better recovery. How can we balance Diddy Kong from that point? Maybe since his recovery is above average, his weight should be below average, etc. etc. etc.

This is just a small example, but with some characters, it seems like they have too few weaknesses to compensate for their many strengths. Take Diddy for example. He has great combo game, excellent stage control, plenty of approach options, a reliable spacing tool, amazing recovery, and enough reliable finishers to get by. What are his flaws? He is below average weight, and falls fast enough to get comboed easily.

Idk. This is all just my opinion. Feel free to make counterpoints and stuff.

 

[yohoos]

This is just a small example, but with some characters, it seems like they have too few weaknesses to compensate for their many strengths.

One word: Mario

But yeah a baseline for recoveries would be nice. At the moment, recoveries are literally all over the place.

 

[trash?]

I still don't think recovery length matters much. ness can recover from a mile away, but it's still a balanced recovery because it's not free, you can do wonders just going for on-stage edgeguards and ness has to be far away when starting it up for it to be safe

what matters is safety. technically, meta knight doesn't have the biggest or most immediately "broken" recovery (I remember one complaint people made when he came out in 2.6 was that they thought it was bad, lmao), but he has variety. this is important, because each recovery option has an answer, but the opponent has to guess when looking at your recovery, and if they guess wrong, you're on stage for free. while none of the options are mewtwo woop-tier, all the options come out quick enough where you can't react, you have to assume the MK player chooses one option and not the others. this makes MK have godly recovery, because you've completely inverted the off-stage dynamic; they're the ones who need to guess to get anything, not you.

or, you know, you can just be the boringest bore on boretown's boresquare and have a tether like samus', your call

 

[Scoob]

I still don't think recovery length matters much. ness can recover from a mile away, but it's still a balanced recovery because it's not free, you can do wonders just going for on-stage edgeguards and ness has to be far away when starting it up for it to be safe

what matters is safety. technically, meta knight doesn't have the biggest or most immediately "broken" recovery (I remember one complaint people made when he came out in 2.6 was that they thought it was bad, lmao), but he has variety. this is important, because each recovery option has an answer, but the opponent has to guess when looking at your recovery, and if they guess wrong, you're on stage for free. while none of the options are mewtwo woop-tier, all the options come out quick enough where you can't react, you have to assume the MK player chooses one option and not the others. this makes MK have godly recovery, because you've completely inverted the off-stage dynamic; they're the ones who need to guess to get anything, not you.

or, you know, you can just be the boringest bore on boretown's boresquare and have a tether like samus', your call

I agree. Length isn't necessarily what makes a good recovery. I think options are important, with more options come more mindgames and mixups. Ness may have a ton of length, but he just goes in a straight line, so he can be easily intercepted.

 

[SunJester]

I definitely think that some recoveries in this game are too good. But at the same time we should be looking at the recoveries of melee characters as well. How good is Peach and Puffs recovery? Does their on stage game warrant them having such incredible recoveries? How about Mewtwo? Its the same as Melee, but is it too good? Samus has been known for an incredible recovery in Melee for a while, can we nerf her recovery? Or is everyone just used to it by now?

At the same time when we look at recoveries, you have to be aware of how it effects their on stage game. Kirby's horizontal cutter might be an amazing recovery tool, but its also used a lot in his on stage game. How much can you take away from a recovery and how much does it effect their on stage game? Its a careful balance.

I think P:M is encountering the same problem that Brawl + or w/e the name is of the precursor to this mod. Far too many opinions from far too many people. It creates an inconsistent tone. At the end of the day a few people are going to have to make some big decisions about the mod and stick to their guns.

 

[Praxis]

Diddy, Roy, Squirtle, ZSS, Kirby, Lucas, Samus all have significant abuses possible in their recoveries, outside of that, the roster's recoveries are generally solid.

I came in to this hoping to read something interesting, and came out of it appalled at how incredibly bad at edgeguarding you are and completely stunned at the level of complainypants you are achieving. I know "get better" can get trite sometimes, and sometimes a mechanic needs to be reworked, but wow.

You complained about ROY.

Diddy: The speed at which you fall during up-b is too slow, and it's dangerous to attempt to trade with his barrel blast.

Okay, I covered this. Misfires are stupid, but it's always worth edgeguarding Diddy. The inability to sweetspot after charging too much gives people a LOT of free crap on Diddy including killing smashes. Misfires are dumb though.

Roy: AKA Roy's tether, let's be honest, his up-b is near impossible to edgeuard, the hitbox is massive and at a great coverage angle, and he will magnet over to the ledge from a large distance at the end of up-B

Are you serious? Can you possibly be serious right now?

You're actually calling Roy's up-B too good?

I mean...what?

Roy's recovery is a cruel joke compared to the rest of the cast in PM, and it boggles my mind that anyone could remotely consider it abusive. If anything, edgeguarding Roy is abusive.


Okay, three key points for Roy's "impossible to edgeguard" "magnet" "tether" up-B. Oh gosh, I'm starting to laugh just writing this.

First, the hitbox is like a mile in front of it. Key point: In front. It doesn't cover his body. You can grab the ledge through his back.

Second, it moves pretty darn slowly.

Third, the hitbox disappears a little bit before he actually grabs the ledge, leading to a little period where he stalls in the air with no hitbox.


Combining this knowledge, it's very simple to edgeguard Roy.

The common mistake people make is that they try to wavedash to the ledge or stand on the ledge. While this is great vs, oh, Diddy, it's terrible against Roy because his up-B hitbox covers the ledge and pretty deep in to the stage.

Instead, when Roy is going to up-B, run to the ledge, and perform a RAR backflip (jump).

If he goes over the stage lip, wait for his up-B to end and hit him.

If he goes for the ledge, even if he sweetspots, just backflip over his up-B and grab the ledge through his back, or fast fall as soon as the flames disappear and grab before he does (because of that stall period).


Roy should basically never be allowed to up-B to the ledge. You can very, very easily ledgehog him every time. His recovery is IMO bottom three in the game (with Falcon and Ganondorf). If the Roy player doesn't have amazing DI, they will be losing every stock to an edgehog or spike, because I will backflip over their hitbox and grab the ledge every single time they try to recover to the ledge.

Roy's recovery is free as heck and I am utterly astounded that you could complain about it. Roy needs a recovery buff, or everyone else nerfed.

Squirtle: yes, up-b (waterfall) is good and has a great hitbox, but the real abuse is being able to w/draw from up high, then as soon as the opponent is about to throw out a hitbox to edgeguard, the squirtle can simply aquajet (press A during w/draw) to pop over them with impunity.

It sounds like you're taking a guessing game ("do I throw out a hitbox to stop his side-B, or do I act like I'm going to but then attack high to stop his aquajet?") and phrasing it as an abuse.

And Squirtle's up-B is basically a better version of Roy's, that you can still backflip over to hit him. Good recovery, but I have few problems with it. Maybe I'm biased because my wife plays Squirtle and I have a ton of Squirtle experience and beat the best Squirtle in my region more handily than anyone else- we had a recent doubles match where I spent the entire game gimping the squirtle because we quickly realized my teammate (ranked higher on PR than me) kept getting messed up by Squirtle's recovery and I didn't.

ZSS: Flipjump (down-B) is basically an entire 3rd jump with amazing lateral range, the tether has amazing range, but the further you tether from the easier it is to throw out a hitbox and interrupt the reel-in (thus gimping her), also she can't air dodge into tether like other tether users.

How is a third jump with limited attack options out of it broken? Lots of characters have third jumps. You just pointed out she's got a lot of tether limitations.

Kirby: For a character that can fly and isn't jiggs, assured horizontal recovery via down-b is a little crazy, especially given side-cutter.

I'll admit I have some trouble edgeguarding Kirby because I always forget to cover horizontal cutter, but this is more lack of practice than inherent Kirby-brokenness.

Down-B isn't the crazy thing though, if you see a stone you get to position yourself to punish Kirby's pop out of it.

Lucas: Down-B can stall and turn him around in the air, and he has a near unpunishable tether. Not to mention his actual up-b recovery.

Admittedly I don't have a lot of practice vs Lucas, but tethers are way overhyped in this game. Put a hitbox in the swing area and you're good. Except that certain characters don't have a way to deal with tethers, which is the main problem with them.

Fox and Falco can turn around and stall with shine in the air, it's not a big deal. You know what the best thing in the world is? Hitting Lucas' up-B with a projectile.

Samus: Freaking tether stall, samus has historically had an amazing recovery, but tether stall is dumb.

I'll agree that stalling is dumb, same for wooping and shino stall.


I'm still laughing that you called Roy's recovery broken.

 

[yohoos]

Fox and Falco can turn around and stall with shine in the air, it's not a big deal.

The difference between magnet stall and shine stall is that the magnet carries forward momentum so lucas can get back from almost any length if DIed correctly while shine stall just makes you fall slower but you don't really gain any horizontal distance. Magnet stall is more comparable to Marth's SideB stall but can be used multiple times to the same effect. Combined with zair tether and UpB makes his recovery one of the strongest. It's imbalances like this that annoys me like why does Roy and Marth only have a single SideB usage while Lucas can get as many as he wants.

Although they will probably nerf the stall seeing as they nerfed ROB's dair stall and ivy's dair stall to make it really only single/double use.

 

[Bleck]

Are you serious? Can you possibly be serious right now?

People would probably be more interested in reading the enormous post that followed this if it didn't begin with this nonsense.

 

[Praxis]

People would probably be more interested in reading the enormous post that followed this if it didn't begin with this nonsense.

Sorry, the guy said he wanted Roy's recovery nerfed. I was trying to write through the tears of laughter.

 

[Rᴏb]

bang bang
can this thread be over now?

 

[Bleck]

Sorry, the guy said he wanted Roy's recovery nerfed. I was trying to write through the tears of laughter.

People are less receptive to their ideas being wrong when one goes out of their way to insult their intelligence.

 

[Daftatt]

Sorry, the guy said he wanted Roy's recovery nerfed. I was trying to write through the tears of laughter.

hey I admit it, you made some good points and I have to say I was wrong in many aspects of my argument. But be a little more subtle in your argument please, just because I was wrong doesn't mean I'm stupid.

Diddy's recovery is still poorly designed as of 3.0 though, I don't concede that point.