Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[Bleck]

surely most people in this thread can see where this is going.

A juvenile ****-measuring contest?

 

[Deleted member]

i like that your rhetoric matches your optimism.

 

[Phaiyte]

Guys, real talk, the actual answer is no. The reason it is no is because like 99% of the players actually suck too bad at the concept to have a real input on the matter.

"Learn how to deal and suddenly the dealer doesn't seem to be cheating anymore."

 

[shairn]

Guys, real talk, the actual answer is no. The reason it is no is because like 99% of the players actually suck too bad at the concept to have a real input on the matter.

"Learn how to deal and suddenly the dealer doesn't seem to be cheating anymore."

Are you part of the 1% that should be able to answer this?
Or are you part of the 99% I should be ignoring then?

 

[Phaiyte]

Are you part of the 1% that should be able to answer this?
Or are you part of the 99% I should be ignoring then?

I can edge guard diddy. Why can't you or anyone else? It isn't my fault so many people are literally incapable of learning something because they didn't have to do it in melee.

 

[Narpas_sword]

there are people who can't edgeguard diddy?

At worst its a trade...

 

[GP&B]

See, you're making the assumption that literally every recovery is okay when they aren't. I think saying most recoveries are too good is a bit much, but it's obvious that some require an insane amount of guesswork on the edgeguarder's side.

And Diddy's is not one of those. The ones that get brought up the most are Z-tether characters and Mewtwo.

 

[shairn]

I can edge guard diddy. Why can't you or anyone else? It isn't my fault so many people are literally incapable of learning something because they didn't have to do it in melee.

I never complained about Diddy. I don't think Diddy is anywhere near as good as so many people seem to think he is. This isn't about Diddy. Haven't you read the rest of the thread?

 

[Fortress]

surely most people in this thread can see where this is going.

....give Roy a tether..?

A juvenile ****-measuring contest?

Nah. If Umbreon's right, he's right. I don't give a ****. All I know is that I've killed Sami off of ceilings with them.

 

[shairn]

Please use Samuses in the future that was way too confusing

 

[Fortress]

Please us Samuses in the future that was way too confusing

Please use 'use' in the future. And you mean 'Sameeses'.

 

[Bleck]

the plural of samus is boba fett

 

[Fortress]

the plural of samus is boba fett

You're on your way, kid.

 

[Phaiyte]

I never complained about Diddy. I don't think Diddy is anywhere near as good as so many people seem to think he is. This isn't about Diddy. Haven't you read the rest of the thread?

Hold the **** up lol. A character that can win neutral by forcing you to drop your shield on command is "not so good"? Two god-like aerials in one short hop? Nearly unlimited extra god-like OoS options? Easily 0-death 90% of the cast? Some of the absolute best mobility in the game? Like 1,000,000 really fast actual kill moves? Long range / easy to use projectile gimp? By far some of the easiest and most effective option coverage in the game?

I don't even know what to say to you right now. Like, I literally can't decide if you're actually serious or not.

 

[shairn]

First, I said "I don't think Diddy is anywhere near as good as so many people seem to think he is." This implies not that I think he's "not so good", in fact it implies very little about what I actually think of Diddy other than he's not a top tier character. Second of all, how good Diddy is onstage has nothing to do with this thread. This isn't about Diddy.

 

[yohoos]

LOL oh we talking about Diddy now?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Better than the inanity of the past 8 pages. Cycles go on, I suppose.

 

[Phaiyte]

First, I said "I don't think Diddy is anywhere near as good as so many people seem to think he is." This implies not that I think he's "not so good", in fact it implies very little about what I actually think of Diddy other than he's not a top tier character. Second of all, how good Diddy is onstage has nothing to do with this thread. This isn't about Diddy.

Please explain exactly why you think Diddy isn't so good, or, "not top tier" (same **** different wording). I'm already laughing in anticipation.

 

[trash?]

so you walk into this thread, circlejerk about diddy, and then whine more with strawmen when nobody was ever talking about diddy before you started talking

you're the worst kind of obnoxious elitist

 

[Bleck]

literally one million kill moves

 

[Phan7om]

Damn, 1 mill kill moves tho? But really, Diddy is so overrated. If he didnt have his long ass (but predictable) recovery, or his bananas people would be screaming that he is the worst in the game and needs buffs. People's views on the tier position is too skewed by S@X lol.

 

[Narpas_sword]

S@X and Salt.

People hate diddy because it sucks tripping on a banana. That is all.

That salt from tripping makes everything else diddy does seem so much worse because you WANT to hate the little ****bag

//also when he >B through my missiles and still lands the kick =((((((

 

[yohoos]

Everything about Diddy is annoying. From his bananas to his barrels to his dash attack to his 3 meteors/spikes offstage.

But just to keep the thread on track I think a lot of people on these forums agree that Diddy's recovery is mostly fine except that the barrels are getting changed/going away just for the fact that it punishes people for edgeguarding correctly.

 

[D-idara]

Everything about Diddy is annoying. From his bananas to his barrels to his dash attack to his 3 meteors/spikes offstage.

But just to keep the thread on track I think a lot of people on these forums agree that Diddy's recovery is mostly fine except that the barrels are getting changed/going away just for the fact that it punishes people for edgeguarding correctly.

It's a failsafe for Diddy, I don't see the problem, his recovery's predictable enough to justify at least a little failsafe.

 

[shairn]

It's a failsafe for Diddy, I don't see the problem, his recovery's predictable enough to justify at least a little failsafe.

The problem is that successfully edgeguarding Diddy can also kill you or put you in a terrible position seemingly at random.

 

[EclipseKirby]

It's a failsafe for Diddy, I don't see the problem, his recovery's predictable enough to justify at least a little failsafe.

Come on, without the barrels, his recovery is still great, having 2 recovery moves that can both be used, both of which are variable in distance. Without the barrels, his recovery is still better than half the cast at least, in both distance and options. If a character really needed an extra failsafe for being properly edgeguarded, it isn't Diddy.

Not that anyone ever deserves a random get-out-of-jail-free card for being punished

 

[Fortress]

@ Praxis

Pls post that thing you posted.

 

[Praxis]

@ Fortress

Not justifying the barrels, but Diddy's recovery is predictable as heck once you get used to being able to estimate his trajectory based on his charge time and angle. He's actually limited in where he can land as he can only change his angle again once he's reached the peak, and you should know whether he has launched himself at an angle with a distance that allows for a sweetspot or not (hint: most of the time not).

It takes a bit of practice to identify and position yourself to react to this on the fly (it's not about swatting Diddy down, it's about "oh okay, he's launched himself at an angle that can reach here here and here, if I stand here I can thwack him back offstage no matter which way he goes"), but I know several people who do so accurately and make it extremely stressful to recover as Diddy. I've had to repeatedly up-b in to smash attacks until I died or a lucky misfire got me out of it.

Hold the **** up lol. A character that can win neutral by forcing you to drop your shield on command is "not so good"? Two god-like aerials in one short hop? Nearly unlimited extra god-like OoS options? Easily 0-death 90% of the cast? Some of the absolute best mobility in the game? Like 1,000,000 really fast actual kill moves? Long range / easy to use projectile gimp? By far some of the easiest and most effective option coverage in the game?

I don't even know what to say to you right now. Like, I literally can't decide if you're actually serious or not.

I hope you're trolling. Your entire post is just a series of silly exaggurations and being a complainypants in general.

Forcing you to drop your shield on command

What is this? How? Are we talking about shieldpoking or glide tossing a banana down under your feet (which means you should have just used an OOS option)?

I think characters like Diddy, Yoshi, Fox and Falco mess up shield logic a lot by setting up situations where if you shield like you normally would you get worse pressure. For example, if Falco lasers your shield during his approach, the shieldstun lets him SHFFL nair in your face. If you shield Fox's nair, he starts multishining and SHFFLing nair all over you. If you shield Yoshi's side-B egg roll, he cancels it in to an attack faster than you can grab. Similarly, Diddy has all kinds of weird shield pressure, where the correct answer is not to shield. Z-catch or wavedash the thrown items and suddenly Diddy loses his pressure. Or, heck, shield the banana and jump and Z-catch it as it bounces off. But instead, people shield the banana and then Diddy follows it with another and runs in while the person in the shield panics.

Meanwhile, if you get a banana and throw it back at Diddy, the not-panicked Diddy player calmly catches it out of the bounce on his shield and the opponent feels like it was useless to have thrown the banana.

Just...learn to react right, just like you would wavedash OOS against Fox and Falco as your escape option instead of trying to grab them.

Two god-like aerials in one short hop?

Diddy's bair isn't half as good as Jigglypuff's. God-like?

Nearly unlimited extra god-like OoS options?

Again, godlike? With a banana in hand yeah, but most of the cast can do that. Without a banana, it's aerial or wavedash or usmash OOS. Just like most characters.

Like 1,000,000 really fast actual kill moves?

What? Diddy basically kills through fair or a spike. His dsmash is fast but only moderately powerful as a kill move. His fsmash can kill, but it can be SDI'd out of pretty easily and has very slow startup and end time, so it's quite dangerous to use- it's a hard read only move, like if you predict a tech roll direction. Uthrow can kill slowfallers only (Mewtwo, Peach, etc) at low percentages and is useless as a kill move against fastfallers.

So we're really just talking about his fair, which is his primary kill move.

Easily 0-death 90% of the cast?

Okay, now I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

Wait, are you one of those people who don't know that you can tech bananas?

Diddy gets zero-death'd very easily by a lot of the cast as the 5th fastest faller in the game, I'd love an explanation for how Diddy zero-death's everyone else. Diddy is one of the biggest techchasers in the game, not a zero-death combo machine (unless you are a spacie, in which case he nairs you all day).

 

[Praxis]

See, you're making the assumption that literally every recovery is okay when they aren't. I think saying most recoveries are too good is a bit much, but it's obvious that some require an insane amount of guesswork on the edgeguarder's side.

And Diddy's is not one of those. The ones that get brought up the most are Z-tether characters and Mewtwo.

The tethers are an interesting one. I actually don't feel like they're overpowered after learning to deal with them, but there's an issue.

Basically, there are points where if you put a hitbox out, they will cross through it during their swing. It's a surprising point, not directly underneath the ledge but a little ways out. Putting a hitbox in this spot will basically kill a tether instantly.

Certain characters make tethers look free for this reason. Diddy can charge his barrels in that region, and if someone tethers generally instantly kill them. Metaknight can SH nair and it's basically a free kill against any tether character. Mewtwo can float. Peach can float. Kirby can bair. Link can drop a bomb. Lots of characters have solutions to this, if you know the spacing of where to place a hitbox.

However, some characters don't deal with this very well (Marth has to basically try to land a reverse up-B), and some characters have basically no options (Roy, C. Falcon) to get down to that point without taking enormous risks.


Your character either has the tools or doesn't have the tools.

A lot of people get all complainypants about tether recoveries, and they're generally not half as bad as people think they are, but certain characters simply have nothing to deal with them. You either wreck tethers or you can't hit them.


Now, that said, you can still edgeguard them by holding the ledge, letting them tether up, getting the forced jump and chasing. But you can't really keep them from getting back.

 

[DMG]

Also, Z Tethers complicate things with airdodge. People with floats or very comfortable offstage play like MK can usually bait them out, but if your character is more inclined to drop off/gets 1 shot before needing to recover, it's not viable for you to even attempt unless you super read their timing. Difference between punishing Ivy when she "has" to tether at certain points or reel in at certain points, vs Link/friends where airdodge direction + timing window is more varied, it can be a nuisance.

If everyone was MK, with his jumps and Nair, tethers would look obsolete LOL

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I love being MK lol

 

[Praxis]

Also, Z Tethers complicate things with airdodge. People with floats or very comfortable offstage play like MK can usually bait them out, but if your character is more inclined to drop off/gets 1 shot before needing to recover, it's not viable for you to even attempt unless you super read their timing. Difference between punishing Ivy when she "has" to tether at certain points or reel in at certain points, vs Link/friends where airdodge direction + timing window is more varied, it can be a nuisance.

If everyone was MK, with his jumps and Nair, tethers would look obsolete LOL

Yeah, agree with this.

Characters like Link and Samus are a little tougher to do this against for the exact reason you describe...they don't have to tether. If you position yourself to cover a tether, they can go high, but it never really feels broken, just like a mixup, once you get good at it. They learn you can cover their tether, so you only have to threaten to cover their tether and it changes your interactions.

But again...that's only for MK and Pit and Kirby and Peach and Mewtwo and Diddy and some other characters. A lot of characters experience none of this interaction, unfortunately, and IMO that's a problem, but I don't know how to solve it.

Even though I think people cry too much about tethers and can usually beat it by just getting better, not all characters can, and because of that I actually prefer Brawl's tether mechanics (they can't tether if you are holding the ledge).

 

[DMG]

Ideally, it would be Brawl tether mechanics with Z tethers only. That would give both sides a fair mixup: choose to tether with the risk of complete death, or use your Upb that covers better with the traditional risks and sweetspot issues most recoveries have. To go further, I'd probably reduce how big of a window you have for cancelling an airdodge into an tether (or restrict the directions you can airdodge while also allowing a tether), but that would basically be it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Best tether suggestion I heard of yet, 10/10! Up-b tethers need to be somehow reliable, but Z tethers, well they are your second recovery option so making them also that good causes problems.
By Brawl tether mechanics, do you mean exactly like Brawl or would you modify it somehow if the tether is at the ledge already and another player tries to grab it. For this case I would suggest that in this situation you got the PM mechanic again because a buff to ranged edgeguarding with z tethers is probably not needed.

 

[Chevy]

Ideally, it would be Brawl tether mechanics with Z tethers only. That would give both sides a fair mixup: choose to tether with the risk of complete death, or use your Upb that covers better with the traditional risks and sweetspot issues most recoveries have. To go further, I'd probably reduce how big of a window you have for cancelling an airdodge into an tether (or restrict the directions you can airdodge while also allowing a tether), but that would basically be it.

This is incredibly unintuitive. I definitely agree something needs to be done about z-tethers though. If we can't get Melee z-tethers back, I would suggest that z-tethers are just one per airtime. Afterwards z-tethers would fail as they currently do on the 4th attempt, opening up rising grapple as a recovery option. This would eliminate the silly air-dodge->tether->cancel->air-dodge->tether->cancel->up-B recoveries, while still keeping enough mix-ups for proper edge-guarding counterplay.

 

[Narpas_sword]

if i dont mix up my recovery with samus, my mate just drops down and hits me with a Bair.

IDK why people have a problem doing that...

 

[Chevy]

Imagine living with a Ganondorf that knows how to stop tethers. I eat up-airs and up-Bs trying to get back all the time.

 

[Praxis]

if i dont mix up my recovery with samus, my mate just drops down and hits me with a Bair.

IDK why people have a problem doing that...

What character is your friend playing?

I think you're 100% right about most of the cast, people need to get better vs tethers. Except there are characters that can't do this. If your mate plays Roy, what do you suggest he does?

 

[Narpas_sword]

i suggest he stops playing such a tool...


hes sheik when he does that. As link, he drops a bomb, as ganon / zard he drops and Dairs. as zedla he Dins
i'm pretty sure 90% of the characters have a fairly safe option to intercept a tether. if they dont, then too bad.

Why should EVERYONE have a counter to EVERY recovery?

if your character cant intecept the tether, then edge hog and wait for the forced hop =/

 

[Bleck]

Characters probably just shouldn't have up-special tethers in general.