Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[The_NZA]

If you think Link's recovery options are narrow, you haven't played a good Link. That's the long and short of it. With pitch perfect aerial glide tossing, hookshot release mindgames, and bomb jumping, you can not viably edgeguard a good link player with some characters.

Also, I agree. Ness is a strong but fair recovery. I think strong recoveries in this game should strive to be more like Ness's.

I think Ike's upb doesn't need a hitbox behind him when he recovers with it. It has a big enough hitbox in front of him.

Spacies are completely fair. Diddy could use a little more end lag....Lucas has some bonkers tricks with wavebouncing, can multi magnet, and has a ridiculously long air dodge tether, in addition to being able to cancel his tether into a magnet stall.

Metaknight...is good but fine. He is light, so I find him a little acceptable.

ZSS has kind of a ridiculous recovery.

 

[The_NZA]

My argument is that recoveries can come back from too great a distance. Whether or not they're safe on their return didn't factor into my voting "yes."

This is actually the exact philosophy I have a problem with. Longer recoveries are good, because they give certain characters the freedom to apply pressure VERY far off stage. If Ness's recovery didn't go its distance, he wouldn't be able to do the incredible edge guards he's capable of. Safe recoveries are what we should be worried about. At least a telegraphed long recovery can be punished.

 

[Master WGS]

This is actually the exact philosophy I have a problem with. Longer recoveries are good, because they give certain characters the freedom to apply pressure VERY far off stage. If Ness's recovery didn't go its distance, he wouldn't be able to do the incredible edge guards he's capable of. Safe recoveries are what we should be worried about. At least a telegraphed long recovery can be punished.

If you want that, fine - I understand. The problem is matches take too long at that point. If we adapt the rules to not let Project M matches take forever, I'm more than happy to keep lengthy recoveries as they are. I see their value in the same way, I would just MUCH prefer shorter games in the end. People act like rules are sacred/we need to keep things Melee. If this is true, long recoveries HAVE to go. If, y'know, you think this can be its own game without kowtowing to Melee purists, I think a shorter rule set is the answer.

 

[Mr.Random]

120 to 97 votes?! Damn people hate recoveries in this game lol.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

This is actually the exact philosophy I have a problem with. Longer recoveries are good, because they give certain characters the freedom to apply pressure VERY far off stage. If Ness's recovery didn't go its distance, he wouldn't be able to do the incredible edge guards he's capable of. Safe recoveries are what we should be worried about. At least a telegraphed long recovery can be punished.

Personally, I can agree with this. Long distance recoveries are not inherently bad. However, when the safety of the recovery is relatively unaffected by how far away it is used from the ledge, then you have a problem.

I'm not necessarily referencing your argument when I say this, but why does the choice have to be between "gimps at 30%" (questionable for balance) or "living until a blast zone KO?" (questionable for gameplay)
It really is crucial that the mechanics of percentage actually apply to recovering instead of it being the one part of the game that bypasses it altogether. It can hardly be argued that being offstage warrants a sudden removal of a fundamental rule, because even spikes and other offstage KOs are still forced to follow it. Being at a higher percentage, and thus being knocked farther away from the ledge, should be a gradually more threatening situation in order to justify greater recovery distance. There are frequent offenders of this, from both the recovering and edgeguarding parties. Multi-part recoveries where one move offers distance and the second offers safety are one, as are "any percent" edgeguarding tools.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

120 to 97 votes?! Damn people hate recoveries in this game lol.

Because they are inadequate, and would rather change the game than their failure to make things work in-game.

Stop complaining about something you want, but most likely would complain MORE about if you got it(my characters recovery is too short!!!

).

Just get better, and this will be as cringe-worthy to you lot then as it is to me and more experienced players than anyone else here now.

 

[otter]

Because they are inadequate, and would rather change the game than their failure to make things work in-game.

Stop complaining about something you want, but most likely would complain MORE about if you got it(my characters recovery is too short!!

Just get better, and this will be as cringe-worthy to you lot then as it is to me and more experienced players than anyone else here now.

I think it's simply untrue that people would complain about being edgeguarded. It's an essential feature that makes Smash unique and fun. It's hard to get better at limiting infinite options.

 

[Joe73191]

No, just because you can't edge guard as easy as in melee doesn't mean they are too strong, it just means the game is a little harder and requires slightly different tactics.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

120 to 97 votes?! Damn people hate recoveries in this game lol.

I hate a few

 

[Scuba Steve]

I hate a few

I feel like this is the best way to put it. There needs to be an option for this in the OP

 

[yohoos]

I realize that a lot people on Smashboards like to throw around this argument for nerfs (recoveries and attacks): "you just suck, learn to adapt and play around it, play better and stop crying for nerfs etc. etc."

Well, here is my equally empty retort: "you just suck, learn to play without it, play better and stop crying for unnecessary buffs etc. etc."

Instead of throwing out personal attacks like that with absolutely NO BASIS whatsoever, hows about you start actually analyzing the problem people are talking about and provide meaningful input to the threads. Thanks.

 

[Raijinken]

I realize that a lot people on Smashboards like to throw around this argument for nerfs (recoveries and attacks): "you just suck, learn to adapt and play around it, play better and stop crying for nerfs etc. etc."

Well, here is my equally empty retort: "you just suck, learn to play without it, play better and stop crying for unnecessary buffs etc. etc."

Instead of throwing out personal attacks like that with absolutely NO BASIS whatsoever, hows about you start actually analyzing the problem people are talking about and provide meaningful input to the threads. Thanks.

Problem: Some recoveries are too good. Enough of the high-pick characters have good recoveries for some people to over-generalize and say that all recovery in PM is too good.
Solution: Wait for the next patch, which will undoubtedly change things, most likely including some recoveries and character capabilities, hopefully enough to change the meta and bring even more characters into the spotlight.
Temporary solution: Learn to play against it for now, because they're stuck here for now and there's no accepted instant-change. The fortunate thing about an evolving game is that if something is decidedly wrong, it can be fixed.

unlike Melee

 

[yohoos]

Problem: Some recoveries are too good. Enough of the high-pick characters have good recoveries for some people to over-generalize and say that all recovery in PM is too good.
Solution: Wait for the next patch, which will undoubtedly change things, most likely including some recoveries and character capabilities, hopefully enough to change the meta and bring even more characters into the spotlight.
Temporary solution: Learn to play against it for now, because they're stuck here for now and there's no accepted instant-change. The fortunate thing about an evolving game is that if something is decidedly wrong, it can be fixed.
unlike Melee

Yes, I agree that we must deal with whatever subjective BS that remains in the current patch, however, that does not mean we just sit back quietly and hope that the all-knowing devs will fix everything for us. In fact, the more we discuss about stuff like this the better because if everyone gives meaningful input, unlike the BS I was talking about earlier, then we may learn more about whether or not certain nerfs/buffs are actually necessary. So, instead of people saying, "OH you just suck at edgeguarding," or "learn to adapt," as a response to a thread focused on analyzing what may or may not need to be changed, they should give some insight as to WHY it doesn't need to be changed. If I say I have trouble edgegaurding tethers and explain how it is a problem, you better not give me no BS response saying I'm bad and instead show me why I'm wrong, because otherwise you are just wasting my time.

We talk about nerfs/buffs because as the developers have said, they look to take community feedback. Threads like this are for the community to help the devs make less and less mistakes as we move forward with each release. Ironically, like you said this isn't like Melee where the correct answer would be "deal with it."

 

[Ace55]

I feel there should be a balance between how good your on-stage game is vs how good your recovery is (safety and distance combined). I feel characters like Pit, Mario, Mewtwo, MK, Lucas, Fox and to an extend Diddy break this balance. I also feel that, in general, there should be a trade-off between distance and safety. If you can recover from beyond the grave it should be relatively easy to intercept you. Having chars that excel at recovery is fine but you probably shouldn't give them an amazing on-stage game as well. I feel most of the chars people consider top tier or upper high tier in PM have this combination (Wolf and especially Falco are the exceptions I can think of). So basically if a character wants to compete with the top they'll either need the above mentioned combination or an on-stage game that is so absurd that it makes up for their below average recovery (Falco). That does not sound ideal to me.

About tether recoveries: I feel those are especially hard to balance, mostly because of how straight forward they are. It's hard to find the right balance between most chars struggling to punish it very hard or 'everybody get's a free kill'. I'm afraid that for the chars that rely solely on tethers to recover it's always going to be ****ty system. However it's kind of strange to me that having a z-tether is actually strictly better than having it on UpB thanks to the ability to use it out of airdodge. Only letting them use it once per airtime seems like a good trade-off.

Props to shairn, The_NZA and others for arguing their points while members of the opposition screams: you suck, get better. I'd love to see some videos of MechWarriorNY, SmasFromThePast and Fortress showcasing how to edgegaurd above mentioned characters when they are played by competent players. I seem to have missed you guys in the top 8 of nationals.

 

[Bleck]

I feel there should be a balance between how good your on-stage game is vs how good your recovery is (safety and distance combined).

Why?

 

[Osennecho]

Why?

If sarcasm oops.
If serious/not troll, I assume you are reading his post as everyone should have average recovery and on stage game? Rather he means some that, some amazing on stage game but a terrible recovery (see Falco/Roy/etc), something in-between (Zelda, etc), or an amazing off stage game but terrible onstage (see ???). Ivy is the only one I can even think of... There's a problem there... A lack of diversity...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

My problem with recoveries is:
- While some characters can punish tethers adequately, you need to get a read at least or win neutral again to get more than @Umbreon 's 13% for other characters (who don't have combos starting from the attacks they could get and no getup attack/reverses hitting them back). Otherwise I'm fine with tetherers.
- Characters that can do whatever they want at the ledge. I think its borderline but fine with Sheik because she continuously has to refresh her ledge intangibility by shino stalling (or using the PM version of it) and making anything out of it (collecting needles, attacking) is a commitment. Some other characters are over that border in my opinion, because they don't even feel like the ledge is an uncomfortable position and the game is designed with the intention to make it somehow uncomfortable there, because many characters just don't have a good enough risk-reward ratio to fight there
- This is only true for a few, but some recoveries just have too much distance+strength. If you want to edgegaurd them you have to cover so many options while risking getting edgeguarded yourself. If the character's identity suggests to have such a good recovery maybe its the better choice to remove some of the dangers that appear when edgeguarding that character (random barrels as example)

I think if it was just about the distance recoveries would be fine because there are also so many edgeguarding methods. Adding edgeguarding methods involving precision but being rewarding might help fixing that issue (footstool as commitment option, but armor of first frames (?)), it has some issues, but recoveries are not generally op.

That are my thoughts...

 

[Bleck]

Rather he means some that, some amazing on stage game but a terrible recovery (see Falco/Roy/etc), something in-between (Zelda, etc), or an amazing off stage game but terrible onstage (see ???).

No character that functions by the paradigm "terrible on-stage but has a good recovery" will ever actually be good - a character with good on-stage will use their good on-stage to get a character with bad on-stage off the stage really easily, and then just edgeguard them repeatedly or gimp them.

The problem isn't that characters have recoveries that are too good; the problem is that the Melee top tiers have tools that prevent all but the most powerful recoveries from being effective (Fox' shine, Falco's spike, Sheik's forward air, every goddamn move Marth has). As I've noted multiple times in multiple discussions, it's difficult - if not impossible - to balance the game based around the strengths of the best Melee characters when those characters themselves are essentially broken.

 

[shairn]

The main problem with the characters who were made unviable by the top tier characters is that they were terrible, not just because the top tiers could gimp them. If you look at the viable characters even, only three of them have safe recoveries, namely Fox, Jiggs and Peach. Everybody else is prone to being edhehogged or gimped early.

"Bad on-stage" doesn't mean an automatic loss, rather it means the character has to put in more work comparatively to the "good on-stage" character. But that harder work translates to an easier off-stage kill on the character whose recovery options are limited in this model.

 

[Garquille14]

Armada just commented on recoveries in PM during a stream with M2K, saying that the best way to edgeguard too many characters is to go to center-stage, which shouldn't be the case, and that it simplifies the game compared to melee.

 

[Bleck]

Why should that not be the case?

 

[shairn]

Because then you're not actually edgeguarding them and basically going back to neutral, is my first thought.

 

[Bleck]

Why does where you're standing relative to the stage matter when you're dealing with an opponent recovering?

 

[kaizo13]

Why does where you're standing relative to the stage matter when you're dealing with an opponent recovering?

uhhh maybe because stage positioning has EVERYTHING to do with edguarding your opponent?

and Armada does make a point, i've seen it far too much from characters like Diddy, Mewtwo, Link, Ike, Sonic, Squirtle etc..

the fact of the matter is, some recoveries are just too safe...why go for an edgeguard and risk having the tables turned on you all too easy because of silly recovery hitboxes.
(also, stage spikes are too effective in this game)

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Why does where you're standing relative to the stage matter when you're dealing with an opponent recovering?

It is basically giving them the "neutral" game while keeping a small advantage

 

[Bleck]

uhhh maybe because you're stage positioning has EVERYTHING to do with edguarding your opponent?

I don't think you understood the question.

It is basically giving them the "neutral" game while keeping a small advantage

The neutral game refers to the options available to both players - if, for example, Marth is standing in the center of Final Destination and Diddy is flying towards him with his up special, they're not in neutral position.

Basically what I'm getting at here is that the idea that the game is more simple because you have to respond differently to different characters' recoveries doesn't make any sense. The implication that characters having more complicated match-ups makes for a more simplified game is asinine.

 

[kaizo13]

I don't think you understood the question.

yeah my bad, i read it correctly...but wrong context. try quoting next time

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Bleck
Basically, if it isn't worth trying to edgeguard someone because they will make it either way and make it into neutral game or even get centerstage, then the edgeguarder might as well stay in centerstage to keep at least that advantage.
While that is of course exaggerated (edgeguarding still is worth ~80% of the time), it's still not a good sign.

 

[GP&B]

and Armada does make a point, i've seen it far too much from characters like Diddy, Mewtwo, Link, Ike, Sonic, Squirtle etc..

Uh no, stay at the ledge and threaten QD attempts above the stage. If you force him to hold it and try to go for the ledge instead, grab it and he loses. And don't even start on Aether; it has no remarkable armor on it anymore and yes, it is very possible to edgehog it.

Sorry, just wanted to say that Ike's is absolutely not super safe. It's got variance but it behaves a lot like a spacie recovery.

 

[shairn]

Uh no, stay at the ledge and threaten QD attempts above the stage. If you force him to hold it and try to go for the ledge instead, grab it and he loses. And don't even start on Aether; it has no remarkable armor on it anymore and yes, it is very possible to edgehog it.

Sorry, just wanted to say that Ike's is absolutely not super safe. It's got variance but it behaves a lot like a spacie recovery.

Ike can just QD into the ledge and walljump if it's taken, followed by another quickdraw onto the stage, or aether or whatever. It's not impossible, it's just significantly more difficult than most.

 

[Life]

Armada's tactic does work fairly well on Pit, provided you to force him to recover high first. He's kinda light and floaty and his dair isn't particularly safe to come down with, so he kind of gets juggled.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Seems deflection is the norm.
Plateaus are the way to go for skill levels, apparently.

I never saw any denial of what I stated, but I'll stand down; to each their own as how things are approached.

 

[BasedAchilles]

No, just because you can't edge guard as easy as in melee doesn't mean they are too strong, it just means the game is a little harder and requires slightly different tactics.

That makes the game easier.

 

[NWRL]

Uh no, stay at the ledge and threaten QD attempts above the stage. If you force him to hold it and try to go for the ledge instead, grab it and he loses. And don't even start on Aether; it has no remarkable armor on it anymore and yes, it is very possible to edgehog it.

Sorry, just wanted to say that Ike's is absolutely not super safe. It's got variance but it behaves a lot like a spacie recovery.

Ike's recovery is probably the fairest recovery in PM (at least for Brawl newcomers), it's linear, and really punishable once you understand its weaknesses.

 

[Raijinken]

Ike's recovery is probably the fairest recovery in PM (at least for Brawl newcomers), it's linear, and really punishable once you understand it's weaknesses.

His, Rob's, and PM Wario's seem most reasonable to me. I guess Wolf's would be, too, if the other furries' are considered good.

Among the newcomers that is.

 

[otter]

Why does where you're standing relative to the stage matter when you're dealing with an opponent recovering?

He was clearly implying that you sacrifice the edgeguard in order to get a slight advantage in neutral. That just sounds like a worse version of Street Fighter to me.

It's not a matter of not wanting to learn matchups. I am capable of learning how to wait 5 seconds every time I hit my opponent because edgeguarding them is useless, but that's why I don't play Brawl.

If being offstage isn't dangerous, it hurts the entire game. The fact that you're fighting on a floating island and one wrong move will kill you is central to the fun of the game.

 

[Raijinken]

He was clearly implying that you sacrifice the edgeguard in order to get a slight advantage in neutral. That just sounds like a worse version of Street Fighter to me.

It's not a matter of not wanting to learn matchups. I am capable of learning how to wait 5 seconds every time I hit my opponent because edgeguarding them is useless, but that's why I don't play Brawl.

If being offstage isn't dangerous, it hurts the entire game. The fact that you're fighting on a floating island and one wrong move will kill you is central to the fun of the game.

At the same time, if offstage was meant to be instant-death, the blast lines would be closer, and there would be no reason for any recovery moves. It takes a fine balance to keep the metagame interesting to watch.

 

[kaizo13]

he said "dangerous"
not instant-death

being off-stage in Melee is highly unfavorable, but it doesn't mean insta-death. That's how it should be in a platform fighter imo.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm not sure whether I think recoveries are too good, but I do think they are unbalanced amongst the characters and sometimes make no logical sense.

Characters who have no other glaringly obvious flaws have amazing recovery which simultaneously gives them much better edgeguarding. Meaning their off-stage and on-stage game is top-notch. PM tries really hard to give characters all the tools they need offensively, but their defensive game becomes icing on the cake at that point.

Another thing is that while you can deal with the recoveries, the topic being discussed is edgeguarding. Edge guarding implies you are at the edge of the stage. Not in the center which is sometimes where its best to be. Trying to edgegaurd certain characters leaves them with the advantage. What makes ledgeplay exciting and intricate is the person who got knocked off has the disadvantage, but by the other person going off-stage they risk a little more for big reward. In PM the "reward" aspect is simply lacking while the "risk" part is enhanced. Trying to edgeguard characters who have multiple jumps, projectiles they can throw at you mid-air, multiple attack options and angles, and tether recoveries is only going to get harder. This is the thing people refuse to acknowledge. People will get better at edgeguarding, and then in turn people will also get much better at recovering. The argument works both ways. You may go off the stage only to get magnet pulled to death, arrow into spike, up-b spiked by Diddy, beaten to the ledge by tethers and then edgeguarded via invincibility. The risk you take is so much higher than the potential reward and you might even say it puts YOU at the disadvantage.

I do think time tends to heal a lot of problems. For instance, if you were to look back at characters who got nerfed in PM before then look at the metagame today you might say they aren't a problem anymore and probably didn't deserve it. We could wait to see people adapt and find out new things but we could also live with changes that are dealt like we do now.

PM is a different game than Melee but Melee is a game that's been going strong for so many years so I don't see why its a bad thing to be influenced by it. Isn't that what started the project in the first place? People are used to a lot of the top tiers in Melee having a lot of counter-play off the stage. While the characters who have less counter-play off the stage have OTHER glaringly obvious weaknesses. (Dying off the top easier, less offensive pressure, slower and more meticulous playstyles) Characters like MK are so well-rounded(I personally think he got buffed from Brawl). He turns 1-mistake into 2-mistakes into death while some characters might have to punish 4-5+ of his. Some people like that, some people don't. Not everything turns into a big problem at high-level play especially, but you have to sometimes give that "reward" aspect I was talking about to encourage people to work towards that high-level. That to me is good game design.

 

[Raijinken]

he said "dangerous"
not instant-death

being off-stage in Melee is highly unfavorable, but it doesn't mean insta-death. That's how it should be in a platform fighter imo.

I agree, though I think Melee was a bit harsh with the strength of edgehogging. As I think I mentioned a few pages back, I think recoveries in general in PM are pretty fine, it's just a few outliers that need to be brought inline with the rest. In no way do I think recovery should be free and easy, but similarly it devolves to more free-roaming Street Fighter if recovery is too weak or nonexistant.