Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[DMG]

Most of the time, that weak hit will lead to something else that causes a knockdown, forces a tech chase at the edge of the stage (lol that means you are going NOWHERE) > dead. Like literally every character has at the very least some kind of option like this. If you don't know it that's your own fault. Like I said before, people are complete garbage ****ies in this game and the majority of the people in here creating their rebuttals against tethers are simply uninformed persons that have no idea what they're talking about.

Not every character can accomplish that. Characters with weird DJ's can take too long to get a punish. Not every character has a decent Fair/attack to use after they force the hop. You might secure a hit with 80-85% of the cast, but that one hit usually is not as lethal as an outright gimp or "traditional" edgeguard scenario. Take Sheik for example: you force the edge hop and then Fair the opponent. If the opponent knows this is coming, they can DI and SDI down so that even at higher %'s, they can attempt to tech onstage. Is that scenario deadlier than Sheik getting a regular gimp or edgeguard kill? Usually not.

What people really need to work on, is not just being proficient at the edge hop punishes. It's helpful, but the main areas unexplored and unrefined are edgeguarding the tether user before they can tether, or hitting them before/as they can reel up. Getting good in those areas will benefit you much more than being optimal with edge hop punishes, since those punishes are inherently weaker than the lethal punishes you can get from more regular edgeguarding.

 

[Phaiyte]

Not every character can accomplish that. Characters with weird DJ's can take too long to get a punish. Not every character has a decent Fair/attack to use after they force the hop. You might secure a hit with 80-85% of the cast, but that one hit usually is not as lethal as an outright gimp or "traditional" edgeguard scenario. Take Sheik for example: you force the edge hop and then Fair the opponent. If the opponent knows this is coming, they can DI and SDI down so that even at higher %'s, they can attempt to tech onstage. Is that scenario deadlier than Sheik getting a regular gimp or edgeguard kill? Usually not.

What people really need to work on, is not just being proficient at the edge hop punishes. It's helpful, but the main areas unexplored and unrefined are edgeguarding the tether user before they can tether, or hitting them before/as they can reel up. Getting good in those areas will benefit you much more than being optimal with edge hop punishes, since those punishes are inherently weaker than the lethal punishes you can get from more regular edgeguarding.

first paragraph: Yes, every character has some kind of answer. Sheik? Don't use fair. That's stupid. All that does is let them touch the ground far away from you and you can't even score a tech chase out of it. Literally every other aerial is better in this situation. You could even waveland onto the stage with an utilt, and that leads to an easy fair in the right direction. Or just do a dsmash. You sound like you love easy **** so maybe you should try that instead.

second paragraph: ummmm... no. Tether characters can remain invincible from the point they grab the ledge to when they hop up. Falling down to try to get them is the worst decision ever. Especially against Ivysaur. If you succeed in this endeavor, it's because your opponent sux, and that's not something you should be relying on. Don't even try to talk optimals to me lol.

Do you actually play this game or are you just a brawl player?

 

[TylerX5]

Why the **** do you need a video for something so simple? The enemy is in the air and Falco jumps incredibly high. Just hit them with SideB and it automatically puts them in knockdown state. They literally can't do **** about it.

Because Falco doing his side B from a ledge drop DJ would position himself away form Ivy, and add the fact that he needs to recover from his Side B, during that time Ivy would be able to tech get up and be in a normal stance. So I don't believe that would work for a tech chase set-up

 

[Phaiyte]

Because Falco doing his side B from a ledge drop DJ would position himself away form Ivy, and add the fact that he needs to recover from his Side B, during that time Ivy would be able to tech get up and be in a normal stance. So I don't believe that would work for a tech chase set-up

No, you will be able to land a F/Dsmash literally every time. If you mess it up it's literally only your fault.

 

[TylerX5]

first paragraph: ... That's stupid.... You sound like you love easy **** ...

Please refrain from being abrasive, it isn't conductive to constructive arguments, in fact it hinders them.

 

[TylerX5]

No, you will be able to land a F/Dsmash literally every time. If you mess it up it's literally only your fault.

prove it

 

[Phaiyte]

prove it

You can do it in 5 seconds against a cpu yourself without me buying 200$ worth of capture hardware just for you.

 

[Phaiyte]

Please refrain from being abrasive, it isn't conductive to constructive arguments, in fact it hinders them.

It is stupid. Get over it. I'm not hear to sugarcoat things for you or anyone else.

 

[Chevy]

second paragraph: ummmm... no. Tether characters can remain invincible from the point they grab the ledge to when they hop up. Falling down to try to get them is the worst decision ever. Especially against Ivysaur. If you succeed in this endeavor, it's because your opponent sux, and that's not something you should be relying on. Don't even try to talk optimals to me lol.

Do you actually play this game or are you just a brawl player?

This is exclusively wrong. You should intercept the tether before/during the reel in, they don't get invincibility until they actually touch the ledge, and don't get any if they are forced into a ledgehop. Don't be scared just because they reel in fast, they are very vulnerable, just drop and pop an aerial. If you think they will cancel the tether into something, just ledgehog. Play decently against a tether character long enough and you will learn to deal with it.

I would personally rather see Melee Z tethers implemented, it's just a much more diverse and fun mechanic, but that doesn't even necessarily make tethers worse, as it gives the tetherer more options.

 

[KABO0S]

I'd say the game is still new so the edgeguard limits have yet to be realized. I'd like to give the game time before sounding the alarm and calling for PMBR to nerf recoveries.

 

[JOE!]

Read: NO character has the jump height Falco has. Da bess.

 

[DMG]

Do you actually play this game or are you just a brawl player?

Haha. I can compete with some of the best in DFW in PM: I don't recommend playing the skill card right here if you're trying to prove a point.

 

[Mithost]

Now I remember why I stopped going on smashboards

 

[Rᴏb]

I think there are a handful of recoveries in this game that could be toned down and would lead to characters being balanced better. Having a bunch of strengths onstage plus a good recovery and a high survival rate is what too many characters have going for them in this game... It can get boring at times, especially when the character has a zair tether.

 

[Fortress]

Now I remember why I stopped going on smashboards

WHY BECAUSE YOU'RE A NO-SKILL SCRUB AND I'M THE BEST IN MY REGION HA YOU SAY YOU'RE GOOD THAT'S A LOGICAL FALICY FALSEHOOD DOUBLE ENTENDRE THESE ISSUES STEM FROM YOUR MOTHER ISSUES I CAN TELL BECAUSE I TOTES HAVE LIKE NINE MASTERS IN PSYCH AT THIS COLLEGE I WENT TO AND ME > YOU.

I'll occasionally take a hiatus when half the boards decide to whip out their e-peen.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

To keep this topic relevant. Are there really too many recoveries that seem flat out stupid. The only character I was annoyed by was samus since she still keeps her zap jump (where Lucas lost his) is the 6th heaviest character in the game plus thanks to down b can essentially recover from nearly anywhere on screen. Her con of having a slow recovery is greatly mitigated by the fact that for some reason her z tether has the longest reach in the game for some reason I can't fathom. But if this can be dealt with as a whole, then only stall tactic errors such as mew two can really be brought up in the category of recoveries that are too good. This is not a nerf Samus rant, I just used her cause she is a good example

 

[JOE!]

I think m2 and sheik should have their invincible ledge stalling looked at. ****s goofy

 

[Chevy]

To keep this topic relevant. Are there really too many recoveries that seem flat out stupid. The only character I was annoyed by was samus since she still keeps her zap jump (where Lucas lost his) is the 6th heaviest character in the game plus thanks to down b can essentially recover from nearly anywhere on screen. Her con of having a slow recovery is greatly mitigated by the fact that for some reason her z tether has the longest reach in the game for some reason I can't fathom. But if this can be dealt with as a whole, then only stall tactic errors such as mew two can really be brought up in the category of recoveries that are too good. This is not a nerf Samus rant, I just used her cause she is a good example

What do you mean by zap jump?

Samus' recovery would be kinda booty without the long reach of her tether. It's kind of necessary to compensate for the lack of Melee tether mechanics; recovering well is kind of half the character. She almost always has to recover below the stage given her lack of horizontal momentum in the air and lack of forward disjoint, and when she is below you have a decent chance to edgeguard. It's definitely a pain, but once you learn to fight her recovery it's certainly not better than the rest of the best.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

What do you mean by zap jump?

Samus' recovery would be kinda booty without the long reach of her tether. It's kind of necessary to compensate for the lack of Melee tether mechanics; recovering well is kind of half the character. She almost always has to recover below the stage given her lack of horizontal momentum in the air and lack of forward disjoint, and when she is below you have a decent chance to edgeguard. It's definitely a pain, but once you learn to fight her recovery it's certainly not better than the rest of the best.

I said "was" annoyed with, my complaint was why is the longest tether given to someone with more than one recovery option when it could have been given to someone fully dependent on it like olimar. A z tether is an optional tether so I felt that it should not be the longest as well. Anyway I said was because I see the cons that can come with having slow horizontal movement in the air. That comment was more to steer the conversation from people that were straying from debate, to backyard brawl.

 

[Fortress]

I said "was" annoyed with, my complaint was why is the longest tether given to someone with more than one recovery .

Samus has, like, two recovery options. Bombs and tether. I refuse to believe uB counts as a recovery.

 

[Empyrean]

She should be able to SWD in the air. Imagine the possibilities.

 

[CORY]

I said "was" annoyed with, my complaint was why is the longest tether given to someone with more than one recovery option when it could have been given to someone fully dependent on it like olimar. A z tether is an optional tether so I felt that it should not be the longest as well.

i vaguely remember pmbr saying they can't adjust the lengths of air tethers or something? or am i entirely off base in my memory here?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0X6PJ3r29-s
The length of that tether at 12:32-12:42 just gives an idea of just how truly far it can reach. Also Samus upb i count as a recovery even though it almost gives toon link something to laugh at. The upb is a short distance get the f off me boost which helps avoid meteors and can be done after tether. combine that with this z tether in the video and down b bombs and you have a nasty combination. Not saying I actually have a problem with her recovery. I was using hers as a way of making an argument to boost olimar's recovery. Repeat "I don't have a problem anymore" someone explained that lengths can't be messed with. He may get an extra neutral b hop but tether stays the same. The reason I used Samus as an example of extreme recoveries is because hers is still one of the best in the game on a heavy character that is hard to combo for most characters. And since she came from melee people are familiar with her.

 

[TylerX5]

It is stupid. Get over it. I'm not hear to sugarcoat things for you or anyone else.

You're being absurd and just excusing your poor behavior, honesty doesn't require being abrasive. You can be confrontational without being a d-i-ck

 

[TylerX5]

To keep this topic relevant. Are there really too many recoveries that seem flat out stupid. The only character I was annoyed by was samus since she still keeps her zap jump (where Lucas lost his) is the 6th heaviest character in the game plus thanks to down b can essentially recover from nearly anywhere on screen. Her con of having a slow recovery is greatly mitigated by the fact that for some reason her z tether has the longest reach in the game for some reason I can't fathom. But if this can be dealt with as a whole, then only stall tactic errors such as mew two can really be brought up in the category of recoveries that are too good. This is not a nerf Samus rant, I just used her cause she is a good example

samus may be heavy but she has one of the lowest resistances to vertical KB, she dies fairly early against upward hitting attacks.

 

[Phaiyte]

You're being absurd and just excusing your poor behavior, honesty doesn't require being abrasive. You can be confrontational without being a d-i-ck

You want me to say mentally challenged instead? Is that politically correct enough for you? Let me try this real fast.

It is mentally challenged. Get over it. etc.

 

[Alakaslam]

WHY BECAUSE YOU'RE A NO-SKILL SCRUB AND I'M THE BEST IN MY REGION HA YOU SAY YOU'RE GOOD THAT'S A LOGICAL FALICY FALSEHOOD DOUBLE ENTENDRE THESE ISSUES STEM FROM YOUR MOTHER ISSUES I CAN TELL BECAUSE I TOTES HAVE LIKE NINE MASTERS IN PSYCH AT THIS COLLEGE I WENT TO AND ME > YOU.

I'll occasionally take a hiatus when half the boards decide to whip out their e-peen.

Thank you for explaining...

So the curse of Alakaslam shall rest here as well, and the Hijos le CHUPAZI shall find themselves returning to the lonely houses, the empty streets, to breed the hostility that is their end!

And so the elitists were discovered to be the Forerunners outlined in halo, and the chupazic children of hate to be flood.

Do we have a mafia forum here?

 

[Fortress]

Do we have a mafia forum here?

Gods no. Praise the nine.

 

[DMG]

We had Mafia games going on somewhere for old Smashboards. Maybe in the social forums?

 

[Shadic]

More on topic less stupid arguing please.

 

[Alakaslam]

Shadic you own the wisdom of pokemix

As far as recoveries, plz I am peach player. You all can have all the recovery you want...

 

[HeavyLobster]

Recovery in Project M is the one area where it's evident that this game is a fan mod rather than an official Smash game. Melee was designed with the understanding that pretty much all of the characters had limited recovery. (Even Jigglypuff's recovery was held back somewhat by the lack of an up-B recovery and Peach's vertical recovery was limited) Brawl, however, introduced characters like Pit and Meta Knight who basically destroyed this concept, and Brawl's mechanics, including fall speeds and multiple air-dodges, were intended to facilitate more aggressive off-stage play. The Project M Back Room has done its best to make these characters fit into a Melee-esque game (and done a pretty good job overall) but the results still feel a bit awkward at times. (The most notable example being the absence of Wario's trademark motorcycle) I'm not sure if there's a real fix for this issue, but it's the one thing about PM that really feels off to me.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Recovery in Project M is the one area where it's evident that this game is a fan mod rather than an official Smash game. Melee was designed with the understanding that pretty much all of the characters had limited recovery. (Even Jigglypuff's recovery was held back somewhat by the lack of an up-B recovery and Peach's vertical recovery was limited) Brawl, however, introduced characters like Pit and Meta Knight who basically destroyed this concept, and Brawl's mechanics, including fall speeds and multiple air-dodges, were intended to facilitate more aggressive off-stage play. The Project M Back Room has done its best to make these characters fit into a Melee-esque game (and done a pretty good job overall) but the results still feel a bit awkward at times. (The most notable example being the absence of Wario's trademark motorcycle) I'm not sure if there's a real fix for this issue, but it's the one thing about PM that really feels off to me.

The fact that one of the jankiest characters ever introduced to Smash doesn't crap out a motorcycle at-will feels off to you.

Hm.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The fact that one of the jankiest characters ever introduced to Smash doesn't crap out a motorcycle at-will feels off to you.

Hm.

Item-spawning characters and item-based strategies were one of the best things to come from competitive Brawl. I find it disappointing that this aspect is removed from Wario's game.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Item-spawning characters and item-based strategies were one of the best things to come from competitive Brawl. I find it disappointing that this aspect is removed from Wario's game.

Outside of recovery, the bike didn't really serve a purpose even in brawl. In a melee scene , by the time you pull the bike out and try to pick it up to toss, your opponent has already hit you seven times. The 1/2 timer on waft turned it more into a recovery option, and the new side b adds an extra dimension to his game, and gives a faster recovery punish than rar bair

 

[AfricanManBeast]

Not all of the recoveries have been exceptionally improved. One I can relate to is Wario cus he no longer has a motorcycle and if he does the side b special he wont have the option of performing any other moves (warios been nerfed)
i can relate to recoveries such as pit because pit almost has endless flying

 

[ELI-mination]

If everyone's recovery is getting nerfed it would be justified to give Fox's up-b less distance and a lot more landing lag.

Then we'd be, you know, consistent for once.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

At least you can edge guard fox's up B. I mean with others, it's more of a gamble and a lot more of a risk.

I think m2 and sheik should have their invincible ledge stalling looked at. ****s goofy

Sheiks isn't as bad as m2's

 

[Mr.Random]

I don't think most recoveries are too good. I just think some people suck at edgeguarding in PM. There are some recoveries that are questionable though.

 

[mimgrim]

Outside of recovery, the bike didn't really serve a purpose even in brawl. In a melee scene , by the time you pull the bike out and try to pick it up to toss, your opponent has already hit you seven times. The 1/2 timer on waft turned it more into a recovery option, and the new side b adds an extra dimension to his game, and gives a faster recovery punish than rar bair

quick thing here, but you are approaching the Bike wrong. You don't want to use the Bike itself as an item, but rather break it and use the tires as items and there a few quick options for which you can accomplish this.