Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[Strong Badam]

http://www.gfycat.com/FocusedVelvetyBream


13% Indeed

I keep watching... and watching... and watching..

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

if i get to tether and make it back and all you hit me with is a 13% aerial every time, it'd call that a pretty good trade for me. most characters would just get killed.

I think you will have to explain the one about Mario to me.

 

[Deleted member]

Post 3 video examples of notable Marth players getting slammed by mario.

> no refutation

asking for the burden of proof when you already know it doesn't exist doesn't make you look smart btw

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The way to test if recoveries are to good is to use the jigglypuff test. Many of the cast do not consider her coming after them off stage threatening anymore in pm. Whereas in melee this was auto death on the majority of the characters excluding (pikachu, jigglypuff, and sometimes samus and peach. In addition to this, we have characters like mewtwo now. while i dont have a problem with the fighting aspects of this character, I do have a problem with the ledge camping potential of this character. Its like sheik on steroids. We may see a ledge grab limit in the future.

If you see a Pit or Mewtwo coming towards you while you're off-stage I'm sure you'll **** your pants just the same.

There's a lot of things holding Jigglypuff back, not just buffed recoveries. She can't get in on characters anymore amongst all the projectiles, disjoints, swords, good mobility options and the rest of the cast just not being **** in general. She's a relic of a far less balanced game state in desperate need of buffs, overhaul or removal.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

> no refutation

asking for the burden of proof when you already know it doesn't exist

Gee
I wounder why it doesn't exist lmao

 

[Deleted member]

Gee
I wounder why it doesn't exist lmao

because we don't even have videos of bad marth vs mario matches, and good players of both characters are pretty rare?

are you done?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

because we don't even have videos of bad marth vs mario matches, and good players of both characters are pretty rare?

are you done?

No, are you?

 

[TylerX5]

Jigglypuff shouldn't have to rest people to kill them.

I never said she had to, but it is a very important part of her play in melee.

 

[TylerX5]

The way to test if recoveries are to good is to use the jigglypuff test. Many of the cast do not consider her coming after them off stage threatening anymore in pm. Whereas in melee this was auto death on the majority of the characters excluding (pikachu, jigglypuff, and sometimes samus and peach. In addition to this, we have characters like mewtwo now. while i dont have a problem with the fighting aspects of this character, I do have a problem with the ledge camping potential of this character. Its like sheik on steroids. We may see a ledge grab limit in the future.

I think in general most players in PM are afraid of to Ramin noodle (which thanks to rar WD is a lot easier in this game) and allow people to grab ledge too much. This is more of a meta game issue.

Also ppl overestimate ledge stalling. There is a 30 frame window after a ledge drop where a character can't grab the ledge again. You rarely see players take advantage of that.

 

[Fortress]

Correct answer is: "No, people just suck horse ***** at edgeguarding". Thanks for playing, kids.

 

[Deleted member]

I always shake my head when people complain about Zelda's recovery. She's one of the lightest and floatiest characters in the game, meaning she is also one of the easiest to send flying into the upper/side blastzones. Why should she also be cursed with a mediocre recovery/significant weakness to edgeguards? Farore's Wind also has a ton of startup, and it's not hard to punish the lag if she is forced to land on the stage. Love Jump is situational and can put her in a potentially bad position - above the opponent.

 

[Fortress]

[salt]"Zelda's too hard to kill, she always comes back and never dies."[/salt]

People not knowing 'bout them upper blast zones. Just counter-pick to Wario Ware, Yoshi's, or even Battlefield, where platform setups can kill her at like 80-90% with enough ease. Hate when people complain that floaties are tough to kill when they're trying to KO off the sides.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I couldn't tell you the number of times I've swatted an Up-B'ing Zelda out of start-up, sending her too far to return while I get back to stage comfortably.

You know that better recoveries let you go farther out and intercept people with greater safety, right?

Players just need to grow a pair and explore the wild blue yonder. Go deep or go home.

 

[GP&B]

Ike wrecks teleports so hard, he's the sole reason they don't exist in his sequel game.

 

[DMG]

Tether recoveries involving Zairs are probably the only area I'd tweak.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I always shake my head when people complain about Zelda's recovery. She's one of the lightest and floatiest characters in the game, meaning she is also one of the easiest to send flying into the upper/side blastzones. Why should she also be cursed with a mediocre recovery/significant weakness to edgeguards? Farore's Wind also has a ton of startup, and it's not hard to punish the lag if she is forced to land on the stage. Love Jump is situational and can put her in a potentially bad position - above the opponent.

For the record, Zelda is not a lightweight. She weighs 90 units (Jiggs is 60, Mario is 100, Bowser is 118), which is tied for 19th. She also has Din's to guard the ledge and/or stage, so the weak to edgeguards part isn't necessarily true either regardless of up-b. Startup and endlag are both mitigated by extremely quick hitbox coverage. You really can't cite landing lag as a balancing factor anyways, because its what most of the cast would expect to have to deal with, significantly less distance and safety notwithstanding.
Zelda's recovery, in my opinion, draws most of its balancing factor from her ledge game. Like Peach and Jiggs, in spite of good recovery most attempts to regain stage position can be punished appropriately. Even then, she ledge-stalls much more effectively than either of these characters, and is significantly less bothered by spikes.
My point is, Zelda really does not need her recovery to be as strong as it is in order to counterbalance character deficiencies. Even without quite as much distance on up-b, say, to allow offstage edgeguarders a greater chance of netting moderately early KOs, she still would not have survivability problems. Granted, there isn't really a specific reason for change, either, given the underdeveloped metagame, but to act as if Zelda has any particularly good justification or need for being granted a good recovery over most other characters might be pushing it just a little.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I don't get why people whine about Zelda so much. Most of the times I see people struggle against her, it is almost always just because they don't know what to do in the match-up. Zelda is NOT safe when she sets up Din's offstage. You CAN go off stage and hit her.

Here's an example:
http://youtu.be/vA9KVWcCZcM?t=33m38s

If Falco of all characters, who is known for having a weak off stage presence, can hit Zelda out of her Din's, chances are that your character can too.

 

[Fortress]

Here's an example:

Just a little sample.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I play diddy and don't understand the zelda hate, I thought people were complaining about recoveries that are too good. I sometimes struggle killing samus and zelda, but its not because their recoveries are too good, its because my character sucks at killing vertically. Its not a design flaw on zelda that she can survive some horizontal hits, I just have to work harder with my edgeguarding to secure a kill every now and then. (Though I admittedly get pissed when samus comes back with a zapgrapple jump on meteors.) A recovery that is too good I define as one that allows for stalling, or an unreasonable amount of risk to go after the character. Zelda has counters in this game, get a secondary or adapt, she actually has some major flaws.

 

[Deleted member]

People are seriously too afraid to go offstage while Zelda is recovering. They shouldn't be. She hangs in the air for a million years due to her own floatiness, she's up there even longer if she tries to set up Din's Fire to cover herself as she comes back (during which she is completely vulnerable due to the move's lag), and then she twirls in place for half a minute before Farore's invincibility kicks in. Despite the range, she is very predictable. I've seen waaaay too many people hang back on the stage and wait for her to come back. Zelda has a very tough time defending herself in the air. Her U-air is too slow to stop opponents from above, her D-air is too unreliable to stop opponents from below, and the hitbox on Farore's startup is short-lived and super weak (the only time it is potentially deadly is when Zelda is the one doing the edgeguarding on opponents trying to recover from below the ledge.)

Go out there and HIT HER.

 

[TylerX5]

Tether recoveries involving Zairs are probably the only area I'd tweak.

There needs to be a higher skill element to all tethers in the game. As of right now most of them require little skill to use. The only thing you need to know is the delay and the spacing (and of course avoiding the weird zone where a tether won't work). The way Tethers work in Melee is a good example of higher skill-based design for them.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

There needs to be a higher skill element to all tethers in the game. As of right now most of them require little skill to use. The only thing you need to know is the delay and the spacing (and of course avoiding the weird zone where a tether won't work). The way Tethers work in Melee is a good example of higher skill-based design for them.

If you said z tethers I would be more inclined to agree with you. But not every single thing should require tech. For characters like ivy with a tether, that is her only way of getting on stage. The reason it should be a somewhat brain dead recovery is because it is reasonably predictable, ivy's only option, and can not be air dodged into.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't get why people whine about Zelda so much. Most of the times I see people struggle against her, it is almost always just because they don't know what to do in the match-up. Zelda is NOT safe when she sets up Din's offstage. You CAN go off stage and hit her.

Here's an example:
http://youtu.be/vA9KVWcCZcM?t=33m38s

If Falco of all characters, who is known for having a weak off stage presence, can hit Zelda out of her Din's, chances are that your character can too.

Very few characters have the vertical jumping height that Falco does...

 

[Empyrean]

Very few characters have the vertical jumping height that Falco does...

Read: NO character has the jump height Falco has. Da bess.

 

[Scuba Steve]

If I can do it with Ganon's jump height, your character can probably too. I see way too many people let Zelda set up Din's offstage for free when they can easily jump offstage and thwomp her

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Personally? Yes, they are too good, but that's what makes the game fun! It's a well-balanced game with a difficulty in between Brawl and Melee, shares all 3 previous games' strengths and few of their weaknesses.

 

[Fortress]

There needs to be a higher skill element to all tethers in the game. As of right now most of them require little skill to use. The only thing you need to know is the delay and the spacing (and of course avoiding the weird zone where a tether won't work). The way Tethers work in Melee is a good example of higher skill-based design for them.

I think Fox U-Smash needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to use.
I think Falco D-Air needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to use.
I think Falcon F-Air needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to use.
I think Mario nB needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to use.

I could go on, but I won't.

Not everything in the game needs to be tech-heavy. Tethers are simple enough to ledgeguard against, punishable, easy to over-rely on and easier yet to force out of an opponent.

Very few characters have the vertical jumping height that Falco does...

I think that most of the characters that aren't Falco are low-tier because of this.

 

[TylerX5]

If you said z tethers I would be more inclined to agree with you. But not every single thing should require tech. For characters like ivy with a tether, that is her only way of getting on stage. The reason it should be a somewhat brain dead recovery is because it is reasonably predictable, ivy's only option, and can not be air dodged into.

It should be redone then

 

[Phaiyte]

There needs to be a higher skill element to all tethers in the game. As of right now most of them require little skill to use. The only thing you need to know is the delay and the spacing (and of course avoiding the weird zone where a tether won't work). The way Tethers work in Melee is a good example of higher skill-based design for them.

There is more skill to using tethers, it's just no one needs it because everyone is ****ing garbage at dealing with it. Like seriously, just hang there until they pull up, ledge hop in with a fair for a free punish EVERY TIME. Even better if you're Falco or Ganon. SideB for a free knockdown which will probably lead to a free kill. Like, **** dude just do it.

 

[DMG]

People are bad at dealing with normal tethers, but at the same time it's not like all characters have a good ledge hop aerial to smack the person with. Even if you do hit them, with many characters that 1 hit is the extent of your punishment: you don't usually hog the edge and then hit them with a kill blow or get quick 40% gimps due to that edge hop attack.

If I were given the choice of a recovery that had that blatant edge hop flaw, or one that had issues sweetspotting/getting gimped/poor distance/etc, I'd probably take the former every time. Eating a blow from even the most powerful of Fairs and being sent across the stage < dealing with other recovering worries.

 

[Phaiyte]

also relevant to earlier in the thread: Jiggs is WAY outclassed by Wario. Plain and simple.

 

[TylerX5]

I think Fox U-Smash needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to use.
I think Falco D-Air needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to use.
I think Falcon F-Air needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to use.
I think Mario nB needs a higher element of skill. Right now, it requires little skill to

That's a false equivalence, all of those require proper setups and spacing to use effectively in a match against opponents who know what they're doing (Especially Falcon's Fair). It takes every little effort to Tether effectively. Watch a Link or Samus in Melee recover with their tethers, then watch the tether recoveries in PM. Melee tethers require much more skill to use (they have to aim and hit the ledge to zipline legde grab it, and they only get 1 tether per recovery), while in PM that just simply isn't the case. I don't really see how someone can make valid argument to the contrary.

 

[Phaiyte]

People are bad at dealing with normal tethers, but at the same time it's not like all characters have a good ledge hop aerial to smack the person with. Even if you do hit them, with many characters that 1 hit is the extent of your punishment: you don't usually hog the edge and then hit them with a kill blow or get quick 40% gimps due to that edge hop attack.

If I were given the choice of a recovery that had that blatant edge hop flaw, or one that had issues sweetspotting/getting gimped/poor distance/etc, I'd probably take the former every time. Eating a blow from even the most powerful of Fairs and being sent across the stage < dealing with other recovering worries.

Most of the time, that weak hit will lead to something else that causes a knockdown, forces a tech chase at the edge of the stage (lol that means you are going NOWHERE) > dead. Like literally every character has at the very least some kind of option like this. If you don't know it that's your own fault. Like I said before, people are complete garbage ******* in this game and the majority of the people in here creating their rebuttals against tethers are simply uninformed persons that have no idea what they're talking about.

Check out this scenario that is extremely common for me right now.
> Roy vs. ZSS
> Roy on ledge, ZSS grapples
> ZSS pulls up and does that little auto hop
> My boy Roy comes in with an uair to EASY sweetspot Fsmash

Falco vs Ivy?
sideB > tech chase with Fsmash.

Like, **** dude it's easy. Just do it.

 

[Phaiyte]

That's a false equivalence, all of those require proper setups and spacing to use effectively in a match against opponents who know what they're doing (Especially Falcon's Fair). It takes every little effort to Tether effectively. Watch a Link or Samus in Melee recover with their tethers, then watch the tether recoveries in PM. Melee tethers require much more skill to use effectively

You're not even allowed to grapple a wall in this game like you could Melee. Options are inherently limited in this game because of that. What are you even going on about

 

[TylerX5]

There is more skill to using tethers, it's just no one needs it because everyone is ****ing garbage at dealing with it. Like seriously, just hang there until they pull up, ledge hop in with a fair for a free punish EVERY TIME. Even better if you're Falco or Ganon. SideB for a free knockdown which will probably lead to a free kill. Like, **** dude just do it.

In chases where the tether punish won't Kockback the recovering character past the center of the stage the punish pushes the recovering character to the center of the stage which is in effect giving them better stage positioning

 

[TylerX5]

You're not even allowed to grapple a wall in this game like you could Melee. Options are inherently limited in this game because of that. What are you even going on about

They programmed Wave dashing into the game (and many many many other things ), I'm optimistic they could replicate the melee Tether mechanics in the future.

 

[TylerX5]

Most of the time, that weak hit will lead to something else that causes a knockdown, forces a tech chase at the edge of the stage (lol that means you are going NOWHERE) > dead. Like literally every character has at the very least some kind of option like this. If you don't know it that's your own fault. Like I said before, people are complete garbage ****ies in this game and the majority of the people in here creating their rebuttals against tethers are simply uninformed persons that have no idea what they're talking about.

Check out this scenario that is extremely common for me right now.
> Roy vs. ZSS
> Roy on ledge, ZSS grapples
> ZSS pulls up and does that little auto hop
> My boy Roy comes in with an uair to EASY sweetspot Fsmash

Falco vs Ivy?
sideB > tech chase with Fsmash.

Like, **** dude it's easy. Just do it.

Show me a video where a Falco does that.

 

[Phaiyte]

In chases where the tether punish won't Kockback the recovering character past the center of the stage the punish pushes the recovering character to the center of the stage which is in effect giving them better stage positioning

Perfect example of edge gaurding against tethers that I would gladly throw directly into the garbage can outside. That ****'s not allowed in my house.

 

[Phaiyte]

Show me a video where a Falco does that.

Why the **** do you need a video for something so simple? The enemy is in the air and Falco jumps incredibly high. Just hit them with SideB and it automatically puts them in knockdown state. They literally can't do **** about it.

 

[TylerX5]

I don't follow your meaning