Meta "And Then Suddenly..." [1.1.5] Patch Discussion

[KetchupKaffei]

Im just glad they nerfed the characters that obviously needed a nerf imo (ZSS and Shiek)
Specially ZSS, like that was broken could not believe she hasn't been nerfed for this long.

I'm also glad they buffed DH, as a DH main, but I feel he needed more than that honestly, but beggars can't be choosers.

I'm now waiting for a buff for Pikachu and hope Bowser got that buff he recently got removed from the last patch. I really disagree of the nerf and don't understand why they took that from him when he needed something like that. It wasn't game breaking really.

I also hope they buffed characters that actually need it even if they have to over look my favorite characters in the roster to do so. I sure as hell want some good characters to play against besides the everyday status que.

Mediocre pic i made and for me to use to express my mood

 

[S_B]

he doesn't really have anything to compete against the top-tiers

You just described 80% of the cast, though.

Looking at the balance changes in this patch, it's clear that the top tiers are being brought down a few notches. Ideally, everyone would be at C tier and the difference between character ability so marginal that we'd want to call it C1 Tier, C2, etc.

The question never should have been "How will ____ deal with the top tiers?", but that didn't start to correct itself until Sakurai went on vacation which, I suspect, has left the game in Namco's more capable hands.

I don't believe this will be the last balance patch, and if the top tiers don't start losing some of their representation in tournaments, I suspect we'll see them nerfed again.

 

[Eureka]

You just described 80% of the cast, though.

Looking at the balance changes in this patch, it's clear that the top tiers are being brought down a few notches. Ideally, everyone would be at C tier and the difference between character ability so marginal that we'd want to call it C1 Tier, C2, etc.

The question never should have been "How will ____ deal with the top tiers?", but that didn't start to correct itself until Sakurai went on vacation which, I suspect, has left the game in Namco's more capable hands.

I don't believe this will be the last balance patch, and if the top tiers don't start losing some of their representation in tournaments, I suspect we'll see them nerfed again.

Sakurai actually straight up said that he has nothing to do with the balance updates, he's primarily concerned with making the game fun, and then he hands it off to other people to make sure it's balanced. Also ideally everyone would be A tier, but the point still stands that Meta Knight was a high tier character and now he has had the one tool that made him good taken away with hardly anything in return. But I digress, I'm pretty sure there's another thread for talking about the metagame implications of this patch anyway.

 

[Eugene Wang]

EDIT: Wrong topic!

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Sakurai actually straight up said that he has nothing to do with the balance updates, he's primarily concerned with making the game fun, and then he hands it off to other people to make sure it's balanced. Also ideally everyone would be A tier, but the point still stands that Meta Knight was a high tier character and now he has had the one tool that made him good taken away with hardly anything in return. But I digress, I'm pretty sure there's another thread for talking about the metagame implications of this patch anyway.

I agree its like they take what needs to be fixed and do something different instead or nerf the wrong things.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

I'm pretty sure, and even some users from the Bayonetta section noticed this, is Bayonetta can act out of her dash attack quicker. Would be great if we could see a side by side.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

MKs upair to death combo still works, it just starts working at a later percent and is a bit easier to DI out of which makes a few 50/50s with mach tornado for people who DI out or Shuttle Loop for people who DI in. He also got his neutral buffed a bit, both nair and fair feel like they have less endlag and are safer on shield. His edgeguarding game is still disgusting and I can see him still being a top 15 character if played right

 

[PK Gaming]

Based on this, Corrin's Uair has slightly more knockback growth.

KBG: 94 -- > 99

 

[godogod]

Some people think the cpus in multiplayer mode are easier in the sense they don't pefect shield and dodge as often apparently. I wonder if anyone can confirm that?

 

[jespoke]

Based on this, Corrin's Uair has slightly more knockback growth.

KBG: 94 -- > 99

Well, that takes off ~60% of the knockback reduction from the damage nerf, so we will probably still be using it to kill

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I think that we made a mistake reading the raw information I think pacman was nerfed instead of buffed:

• Bair KBG: 100 -> 98
• Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 99/102 -> 97/100
• Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 97/92 -> 95/90
• Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 86/92 -> 84/90

Acording to this

Can anyone confirm it? I'm not sure if I read it correctly

 

[ARGHETH]

I think that we made a mistake reading the raw information I think pacman was nerfed instead of buffed:

• Bair KBG: 100 -> 98
• Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 99/102 -> 97/100
• Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 97/92 -> 95/90
• Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 86/92 -> 84/90

Acording to this

Can anyone confirm it? I'm not sure if I read it correctly

That has the "old" and "new" tags switched. You can check on KH, 1.1.4 Pacman's Bair had KGB of 98, not 100.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

That has the "old" and "new" tags switched. You can check on KH, 1.1.4 Pacman's Bair had KGB of 98, not 100.

THANKS

 

[jespoke]

Since Flare Blitz has a change to "blockability" and facing restriction, we should probably test its interaction with projectiles and cape (Though i think facing restriction usually is to stop people from being sent in odd directions, it doesn't hurt to try). I'll try it myself this evening if no one else feels like it.

 

[expansioN]

Just out of curiosity I made an overlay of the sheik fair hitboxes and zss nair hitboxes, for easier comparison. Red is old one, green is new one.

Spoiler

 

[KaizorOne]

Why would they ever change anything on Pacman other than his totally useless grab?
I'm confused. By faaaaaaaaaaaar the worst grab in the game and they rather buff his already nice Smash attacks over his ****ty grab...

 

[Ambler]

Why would they ever change anything on Pacman other than his totally useless grab?
I'm confused. By faaaaaaaaaaaar the worst grab in the game and they rather buff his already nice Smash attacks over his ****ty grab...

Not all characters are designed around grabs, Pac's general playstyle is more of a "Keep the hell away from me, take damage if you dare approach" than "Rushdown, pressure, grab, combo"

 

[jwj442]

The question never should have been "How will ____ deal with the top tiers?", but that didn't start to correct itself until Sakurai went on vacation which, I suspect, has left the game in Namco's more capable hands.

Making new content (and basic balancing for the new characters) probably occupied most of the dev team's time. With that done, I imagine they can focus specifically on balancing more easily now.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm looking at the frame data sheet for Greninja and apparently both his Up-Air and D-Air have one less frame of landing lag

 

[jespoke]

I'm looking at the frame data sheet for Greninja and apparently both his Up-Air and D-Air have one less frame of landing lag

The words "one less frame" mandates that i immediately ask you to double-check if you aren't comparing duration and FAF numbers

 

[FullMoon]

The words "one less frame" mandates that i immediately ask you to double-check if you aren't comparing duration and FAF numbers

This here says that the lag for D-Air and Up-Air is 32 and 15 respectively while Kurogane's (not updated yet it seems) says it's 33 and 16. The rest of the aerials match so it does look like one frame was taken off.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not all characters are designed around grabs, Pac's general playstyle is more of a "Keep the hell away from me, take damage if you dare approach" than "Rushdown, pressure, grab, combo"

Pacman's grab should be a constant hitbox like it is in Galaga. There's no reason why I should be able to run right into it most of the time and hit Pacman.

 

[Bowserboy3]

This here says that the lag for D-Air and Up-Air is 32 and 15 respectively while Kurogane's (not updated yet it seems) says it's 33 and 16. The rest of the aerials match so it does look like one frame was taken off.

Wow, that whole 1 frame taken off of 33 landing lag frames is sure going to help Dair lots...

But actually, the 1 frame off of Uair might help landing falling Uair into something, so this sounds good on paper for Greninja players.

 

[JAZZ_]

Samus buff party!

 

[Radical Larry]

Samus buff party!

Samus, Zelda, Zard and Dorf buff party.

 

[S_B]

Sakurai actually straight up said that he has nothing to do with the balance updates

You sure?

Sakurai talked at length about how he balanced characters around for FG in one of the interviews...

Making new content (and basic balancing for the new characters) probably occupied most of the dev team's time. With that done, I imagine they can focus specifically on balancing more easily now.

True.

I wind up giving credit to the Namco team for balancing because of Sakurai's comments about not understanding why people didn't use f-smashes to finish stocks and instead prefer to use aerials.

If he can't understand why people use less risky moves like aerials to KO, then I can't imagine he could balance this game properly...

 

[thehard]

No, he said he prefers spectacular smash attack finishes over low risk pokes, not that he doesn't understand why one is used over the other more often.

@Liberation I can't post in the patch thread but you may want to reword the damage changes on ZSS's throws to reflect that they affect only one part of the throws' 2-hit damage.

 

[TsarofToon]

God Save the ZSS mains, good lord. The nerfs are so bad, I can't even use her anymore. She just gotten replaced by Ike in my Mains, and I don't think she will be a Secondary or a Thirdiary (don't remember what it is called, so help me out plz.)

 

[TurboNoob]

- Dash Speed Increase????
- Less lag when you turn around while dashing????


- Faster Down-tilt??? (Probably my imagination)

 

[Bowserboy3]

God Save the ZSS mains, good lord. The nerfs are so bad, I can't even use her anymore. She just gotten replaced by Ike in my Mains, and I don't think she will be a Secondary or a Thirdiary (don't remember what it is called, so help me out plz.)

Lol they honestly aren't that bad at all, a bit of an overreaction I feel.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This here says that the lag for D-Air and Up-Air is 32 and 15 respectively while Kurogane's (not updated yet it seems) says it's 33 and 16. The rest of the aerials match so it does look like one frame was taken off.

Hmm, it's either a typo on Kurogane's part or a patch update that wasn't caught. I have a 1.10 source (same author as those charts) claiming the same numbers.

Whatever the issue is, Greninja's Uair and Dair landing lag were not changed in THIS patch.

 

[Banjodorf]

Samus, Zelda, Zard and Dorf buff party.

Greninja too tho. No more nerf or nothin'.

Based on this, Corrin's Uair has slightly more knockback growth.

KBG: 94 -- > 99

This is good, which means despite doing less damage, it should still be a reliable kill move.

Man, I'm glad the day of people losing their **** over Cloud and Corrin's "character destroying" nerfs is over. That was an irritating pile of **** to sift through. They're still fine.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Lol they honestly aren't that bad at all, a bit of an overreaction I feel.

Probably an overreaction but imo she was balanced by her awful grab which she relied on. I guess we will see what happens when Nairo, Marss , Remzi, Dakpo and the other ZSS mains compete now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Greninja too tho. No more nerf or nothin'.



This is good, which means despite doing less damage, it should still be a reliable kill move.

Man, I'm glad the day of people losing their **** over Cloud and Corrin's "character destroying" nerfs is over. That was an irritating pile of **** to sift through. They're still fine.

Wasn't it? I adjusted to the Limit Charge timing and all of Cloud's changes basically immediately. Just means you have to use LB Side-B a bit later (or not, if you have rage, heh.) and like, camp a bit more? Uair is still good as ever and can still kill off the top at high %s if you're fishing for it well, yeah.

On that note, things I'm taking and enjoying from this patch that I like are
- Ganon's jab
- Samus's everything
- Some of the Sheik changes, but not all of them

I would say in terms of making the roster more viable as a whole this patch is the most successful yet because it seems to be attempting to leverage the gap from top to bottom.

 

[S_B]

No, he said he prefers spectacular smash attack finishes over low risk pokes, not that he doesn't understand why one is used over the other more often.

He also said he was "amazed" at the matches between Nairo and Aba, both of whom assumed that they had shown Sakurai why their respective characters needed nerfing.

And if that doesn't convince you, he said he brought in people to help balance Brawl and look how that turned out.

Also, Sakurai is on vacation, which means that Namco must be working on the balance changes without him at this point. How vital could he have been to the process?

 

[Eureka]

You sure?

Sakurai talked at length about how he balanced characters around for FG in one of the interviews...

Sakurai talked about it in the Nintendo Dream interview a while back. You can check it out here. http://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/20/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-1/
But specifically what Sakurai said was this.

—Since release, you’ve watched trends among online battles shift over time, and seen a number of tournaments take place. Looking back, how do you feel?

Sakurai: I’ve checked the results from online matches, but I left all the finer details and research to the monitoring team, so I didn’t really go out of my way to watch things that closely.

—Oh, really?

Sakurai: Yes, because ultimately I need to look out for the novice and intermediate players. I made it my priority to create an environment in which they could relax and enjoy themselves. I have nowhere near the same dexterity as the advanced players (laughs), so I relied on the monitoring team’s data and advice. I honestly think we could make the game more balanced if we only focused on adjusting to For Glory 1v1. If we were to do that, however,Smash would lose its sense of being a party game people can get together and play.

So while he is involved in the balancing process, Sakurai mostly just listens to what the monitoring team says and goes with that. Bandai Namco have probably been handling most of the balance changes from the beginning, or whatever staff they have on the monitoring team.

 

[|RK|]

The patch notes thread has no percentage for Kirby. Are his changes done, or...?

 

[S_B]

Sakurai talked about it in the Nintendo Dream interview a while back. You can check it out here. http://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/20/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-1/
But specifically what Sakurai said was this.
So while he is involved in the balancing process, Sakurai mostly just listens to what the monitoring team says and goes with that. Bandai Namco have probably been handling most of the balance changes from the beginning, or whatever staff they have on the monitoring team.

Good find, though this cinches it when he says "If we were to do that, however,Smash would lose its sense of being a party game people can get together and play."

That's simply not true in any sense, as SSB is a party game due to stage hazards, items, and general randomness of FFAs. Characters could be perfectly balanced in 1v1 situations and it would still be a party game in FFA.

In any case, I don't expect this will be the last patch, either. I don't know if folks remember, but it was reported a while back that Namco had signed on for SSB5 and 6, so I expect they're still working on balance and will be for the foreseeable future, because...

SSBNX is going to be SSB4 "deluxe edition", which will include all DLC on disc as well as new characters, stages, etc. but will be based off of SSB4's current balance, which means that the ongoing balance patches we're seeing now will be building toward the next iteration of SSB.

Just watch, it'll happen.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just to clear a bit of misconception up...

There have been claims of Pac-Man having less landing lag on Nair and a faster grab thanks to a Reddit post. I tested these on my two versions of 3DS, and unfortunately these claims are false. Grab is still as laggy as before, and no matter when you land with Nair, the landing lag is still the same.

@Xandercosm @L1N3R1D3R

---

- Dash Speed Increase????
- Less lag when you turn around while dashing????


- Faster Down-tilt??? (Probably my imagination)

I also tested these Mario and Fox things, and they are also false unfortunately.

 

[DemonRin]

I just checked the patch notes thread.... do we REALLY still know NOTHING about Rosalina?.... The other 2 S-Tier characters (ZSS and Shiek) got Nerfed, so it makes sense they'd Nerf her too... but nobody's looked into her?