Meta "And Then Suddenly..." [1.1.5] Patch Discussion

[Bowserboy3]

I just checked the patch notes thread.... do we REALLY still know NOTHING about Rosalina?.... The other 2 S-Tier characters (ZSS and Shiek) got Nerfed, so it makes sense they'd Nerf her too... but nobody's looked into her?

Rosalina was not included on the document that showed changes to movesets damage, hitboxes, timings etc. @Zapp Branniglenn has also gone through all landing lag and mentioned nothing about her.

All signs are pointing to her receiving no changes. The fact nobody seems to be looking into her is because we don't really need to.

Putting a different twist on your statement, Ganon and Zelda got buffs, so surely that means Jigglypuff gets some, right? Wrong. It's just how the cookie crumbles.

 

[S_B]

I just checked the patch notes thread.... do we REALLY still know NOTHING about Rosalina?.... The other 2 S-Tier characters (ZSS and Shiek) got Nerfed, so it makes sense they'd Nerf her too... but nobody's looked into her?

Wait for 1.1.6, and yes, there WILL be a 1.1.6.

D3, JP, and DH still need their buffs, and they've been doing waves of buffs like this all along, focusing on certain characters for balance each patch.

Next, I expect we'll see Rosa and Sonic get "adjusted" (since they both had the "kiss of death" in 1.1.4) as well as the remainder of trash tier brought up.

 

[theanjo]

Wait for 1.1.6, and yes, there WILL be a 1.1.6.

D3, JP, and DH still need their buffs, and they've been doing waves of buffs like this all along, focusing on certain characters for balance each patch.

Next, I expect we'll see Rosa and Sonic get "adjusted" (since they both had the "kiss of death" in 1.1.4) as well as the remainder of trash tier brought up.

You sure about that Sonic change? I thought that got removed from the 1.1.4 patch notes some time after we found that his death percents didn't change.

 

[Aninymouse]

You sure about that Sonic change? I thought that got removed from the 1.1.4 patch notes some time after we found that his death percents didn't change.

No. Some of the minor weight changes of characters got removed from the 1.1.4 notes because we were sloppy with our 1.1.3 or before notes and missed it when it was actually a change.

 

[theanjo]

No. Some of the minor weight changes of characters got removed from the 1.1.4 notes because we were sloppy with our 1.1.3 or before notes and missed it when it was actually a change.

In that case, Sonic technically didn't get the "kiss of death"... I'm ok with that.

 

[S_B]

In that case, Sonic technically didn't get the "kiss of death"... I'm ok with that.

Ah, my mistake then.

I the kiss of death seemed plausible since Japan places Sonic at S-tier...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It's NOT mine, I just copy and paste from @Sammi Husky.

BTW, Beyo, Cloud, Sheik and ZSS has change on their param file(not related to that spread sheet).
Just my guessing from param files and I haven't confirmed;

• ZSS' Side-B FAF 59 -> 56
• Beyo's Dair FAF 42 -> 48
• Heel Slide FAF 73 -> 78
• Witch Time FAF 45 -> 50

Did you ever confirm this? (esp interested in ZSS SideB)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Rosalina was not included on the document that showed changes to movesets damage, hitboxes, timings etc. @Zapp Branniglenn has also gone through all landing lag and mentioned nothing about her.

All signs are pointing to her receiving no changes. The fact nobody seems to be looking into her is because we don't really need to.

Putting a different twist on your statement, Ganon and Zelda got buffs, so surely that means Jigglypuff gets some, right? Wrong. It's just how the cookie crumbles.

Wait didn't they change some luma stuff? I heard that luma takes longer to respawn, cant be used while grabbed, frozen, shield broken, etc?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I don't think or will get nerfed because they got nerfed countless times prior that affect them a lot more.

 

[S_B]

I don't think or will get nerfed because they got nerfed countless times prior that affect them a lot more.

True, but again, they're both still S-tier in Japan, meaning a future patch toning them down wouldn't be unexpected.

 

[White_Pointer]

Hey yo official patch note thread dudes ( Gunla ), looks like you've made a duplicate entry for Samus:

• Nair:
  • Hit 1 Damage: 8/8 -> 10/10
  • Hit 2 (Normal) Damage: 7/7 -> 9/9
  • Hit 2 (Late):
    • Damage: 6/6 -> 8/8
    • Size: 3.3/3.3 -> 3.6/3.6
    • Z Position: 5.3/0 -> 5.4/0

This is mentioned again at the bottom:

Nair Front/Back Weak/Back Strong Damage: 8/6/7 -> 10/8/9

Just thought I'd point that out, you can probably remove the entry at the bottom as it's already covered.

There's also a typo in the first entry: "Super Missle" instead of "Super Missile".

Lastly it's mentioned in replies that Samus has received changes to her aerial mobility:

Air speed 0.95 -> 1.03
Gravity 0.75 -> 0.77
Fall speed 1.25 -> 1.3
Fastfall 2 -> 2.08

However these changes are not listed in the first post of the thread. Are they officially confirmed?

 

[Nexus Nova]

SSBNX is going to be SSB4 "deluxe edition", which will include all DLC on disc as well as new characters, stages, etc. but will be based off of SSB4's current balance, which means that the ongoing balance patches we're seeing now will be building toward the next iteration of SSB.

Just watch, it'll happen.

Then we'll finally see the Ice Climbers and Wolf return for the final version of the game as well as merging the 3DS and Wii U stages together.

 

[S_B]

BTW, I went ahead and tested Bowser's weight with a helpful gentleman who had an unpatched Wii U.

On FD, Pikachu's Uthrow (which is a 90% angle) kill % for Bowser:

1.1.4: kills at 213%

1.1.5: kills at 215%

So Bowser must have hit the donuts due to depression after they nerfed his Uthrow in 1.1.4 (and really, who can blame him?).

 

[G-Guy]

I am really happy with this patch, especially the buffs to Samus, Ganondorf and Mewtwo.
This game just has way too many characters I love playing :D

 

[Meshima]

Did you ever confirm this? (esp interested in ZSS SideB)

I forgot to mention about this.
Plasma Whip total frame reduced to 55 from 58.

 

[HimaBook]

Based on this, Corrin's Uair has slightly more knockback growth.

KBG: 94 -- > 99

Well, that takes off ~60% of the knockback reduction from the damage nerf, so we will probably still be using it to kill

As we know, Corrin's Uair damage nerfed(10→9) ,but KBG increased. This resulted in nerf of kill ability of Uair totally.
Following is red lighting % of Corrin's Uair to Mario in training.

1)3ds Suzaku Castle Ω

1.1.4: 147% →　1.1.5: 153%​

2)3ds center platform of Dream Land (64)

1.1.4: 119% →　1.1.5: 124%​

 

[Bowserboy3]

Lastly it's mentioned in replies that Samus has received changes to her aerial mobility:


However these changes are not listed in the first post of the thread. Are they officially confirmed?

I tested these myself a while back. I used both 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 versions of 3DS, and went to the top platform on N64 Hyrule Castle, and simultaneously jumped and double jumped to get the most height on both versions, and moved left slightly so I would go down to the ground. 1.1.5 landed sooner than 1.1.4 in both fall and fastfall speed.

Alternatively, I also tested KO percents on a vertical based knockback move. I used Palutena's Up Smash on Omega Brinstar. In 1.1.4, Samus got KO'd at 105%. In 1.1.5, she got sometimes got KO'd at 106%, but always at 107%, further supporting fall speed/gravity increases.

Air speed is very noticeable too. Samus can cover more ground short hopping across a stage (like, if you do 3 short hops from the left edge, you'll end up covering more distance in 1.1.5 by a small amount). Pretty sure Samus can now chain Fair into itself off stage easier/for longer because of the new air speed.

 

[Vipermoon]

I tested these myself a while back. I used both 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 versions of 3DS, and went to the top platform on N64 Hyrule Castle, and simultaneously jumped and double jumped to get the most height on both versions, and moved left slightly so I would go down to the ground. 1.1.5 landed sooner than 1.1.4 in both fall and fastfall speed.

Alternatively, I also tested KO percents on a vertical based knockback move. I used Palutena's Up Smash on Omega Brinstar. In 1.1.4, Samus got KO'd at 105%. In 1.1.5, she got sometimes got KO'd at 106%, but always at 107%, further supporting fall speed/gravity increases.

Air speed is very noticeable too. Samus can cover more ground short hopping across a stage (like, if you do 3 short hops from the left edge, you'll end up covering more distance in 1.1.5 by a small amount). Pretty sure Samus can now chain Fair into itself off stage easier/for longer because of the new air speed.

The answer he's looking for is that yes, game data states that Samus's air speed went up from 0.97 to 1.03.

 

[LRodC]

Gunla I'm pretty sure ZSS's down throw went from 7 to 5, not 5 to 3.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Gunla I'm pretty sure ZSS's down throw went from 7 to 5, not 5 to 3.

The move is actually two hits, but it's the last hit that has decreased damage. So while it's technically right that some damage value was decreased from 5% to 3%, it doesn't state that it's specifically the hit 2 damege, which it should do. Basically from...

From:
Hit 1: 2%, Hit 2: 5% = 7% total.

to:
Hit 1: 2%, Hit 2: 3% = 5% total (-2%).

So yes, that might want correcting Gunla .

 

[LRodC]

The move is actually two hits, but it's the last hit that has decreased damage. So while it's technically right that some damage value was decreased from 5% to 3%, it doesn't state that it's specifically the hit 2 damege, which it should do. Basically from...

From:
Hit 1: 2%, Hit 2: 5% = 7% total.

to:
Hit 1: 2%, Hit 2: 3% = 5% total (-2%).

That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Tri Knight]

Dash attack is probably his worst kill move. There's no way to combo into it when it matters the most from what I've seen. It pretty much requires a back roll read and high level players don't generally predictably roll backwards. Also, some rolls go farther than others. And Link doesn't have the speed to close the gap and use dash attack before they're able to move again. It might hit hard but so does the majority of Ganondorf's moveset. And look where he is on most tier lists. If there's one thing you should take from the Smash Bros. series competitively, it's that power alone means little to nothing and that speed is king.

I never said it was good though. I only said it was better.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Some people here are wayyyyy too confident that Rosalina is going to be nerfed in another patch.

Consider this:

- There is only 1 top Rosalina player in the Japan PR rankings (Kirihara) and he barely cracks the top 20. This matters more for patch purposes than anything that happens in the US.
- Rosalina in general sees little usage compared to other "top tiers" around the world. So she probably doesn't seem like a huge problem right now for the patch team.
- Despite the nerfs to other characters, those characters are still going to get more results than Rosa, because not many people use her. Lack of results = less likely to be nerfed.
- Almost everyone will still consider Sheik a better character. There's no reason to think that Rosa will get nerfed again but Sheik and others won't. Rosa has still been nerfed substantially since Smash 4's release.

I'm not saying Rosa can't be nerfed. But it's faulty thinking to say "Most other top tiers got nerfed this patch, so surely the next patch will be Rosa's turn." The fact that they didn't touch her this pitch shows that they clearly don't think she's a big problem at the moment.

 

[double_axle]

Any more Robin buffs on the horizon? Any updates on shulk? Dunno if anybody has looked more in-depth at those two yet.

 

[Masonomace]

Any more Robin buffs on the horizon? Any updates on shulk? Dunno if anybody has looked more in-depth at those two yet.

I've been lazy with checking Monado arts since perhaps a multiplier could have changed but nothing's come up yet. Nothing else seems changed for Shulk as far as we know. Dunno anything about Robin but from what's been said here, there hasn't been any changes either.

 

[HimaBook]

In official thread, most analysis is nearly done. I appreciate it.

By the way, this patch is analyzed mainly by extracted game data document. Owing to that,we can know a lot of correct information. But we should note that we can know most but not all information by the data document. Following is blind side of the data document in my understanding.

1)There are hidden data of hitboxes (the data include damage, hitboxes size, offset etc..).These are not written in normal place of the document and nobody have found.

e.g. R.O.B's Uair (Hit 1-4), Corrin's Rapid jab (except for final hit)​

2)About some moves, though hitboxes data is known, data of behavior about what hitboxes are attached isn't revealed.

e.g.Projactile (Even if hiboxes data are not changed, change of projectile behavior (e.g. speed, homing) can influence capability of moves. And data of the behavior haven't found), Tether grabs, Zair​

3)Except as stated above, data of shield stun,time for charging moves (e.g limit charge) etc. haven't found.

So even if data document analysis have been done,we should consider these.

 

[Aninymouse]

As we know, Corrin's Uair damage nerfed(10→9) ,but KBG increased. This resulted in nerf of kill ability of Uair totally.
Following is red lighting % of Corrin's Uair to Mario in training.

1)3ds Suzaku Castle Ω

1.1.4: 147% →　1.1.5: 153%​

2)3ds center platform of Dream Land (64)

1.1.4: 119% →　1.1.5: 124%​

Gunla This KBG on Corrin's Uair need to be added to the main patch notes.

 

[Ninety]

I noticed the increase in Cloud's LB charge time is of 42 frames, which would be .7 seconds, but it's listed in the official changelog as .42 seconds.

 

[Gunla]

Gunla This KBG on Corrin's Uair need to be added to the main patch notes.

Uair KBG change was already listed.

I noticed the increase in Cloud's LB charge time is of 42 frames, which would be .7 seconds, but it's listed in the official changelog as .42 seconds.

Went along with this video posted in the main thread; however, I think that I'll just list the frames for now.

The move is actually two hits, but it's the last hit that has decreased damage. So while it's technically right that some damage value was decreased from 5% to 3%, it doesn't state that it's specifically the hit 2 damege, which it should do. Basically from...

From:
Hit 1: 2%, Hit 2: 5% = 7% total.

to:
Hit 1: 2%, Hit 2: 3% = 5% total (-2%).

So yes, that might want correcting Gunla .

It's been fixed.

 

[TsarofToon]

Lol they honestly aren't that bad at all, a bit of an overreaction I feel.

I got two stocked by a Lv 8, and I normally defeated lv 9s b4 the patch with ZSS. That's how bad it was for me.

 

[Kon]

Did MK upthrow get any changes? I remember MK could upthrow fsmash pikmin but it doesn't seem to work now anymore because the pikmins land further away from Olimar. So I was wondering if there got anything changed or if it's only placebo.

 

[S_B]

Some people here are wayyyyy too confident that Rosalina is going to be nerfed in another patch.

She may very well not be, but my reasoning was that Rosa is also an S-tier in Japan (as is Sheik, ZSS, and Sonic).

 

[MarioMeteor]

Why, oh why, can't they just release ****ing patch notes? Daddy Sakurai please.

Wait for 1.1.6, and yes, there WILL be a 1.1.6.

D3, JP, and DH still need their buffs, and they've been doing waves of buffs like this all along, focusing on certain characters for balance each patch.

Next, I expect we'll see Rosa and Sonic get "adjusted" (since they both had the "kiss of death" in 1.1.4) as well as the remainder of trash tier brought up.

I doubt it. 1.04 seems to be the worst they're going to do to Rosalina. If they do nerf her, they're going to give her some kind of buff to compensate, that's what they seem to be doing with her. She's skillfully dodged the Nerf Hammer so far, I'm praying it stays that way.

 

[Rakurai]

The only thing about Rosalina I feel needs to be changed is Luma's absurd base knockback values that allow it to score those silly low percent kills under rage.

Lower those and just give it more knockback growth to compensate.

 

[White_Pointer]

If we ever do get a 1.1.6, something I'd like to see happen to Bayo is for her to actually go into helpless/freefall once both of her Up B's are used. That one change alone would fix pretty much all of her BS.

 

[S_B]

Why, oh why, can't they just release ****ing patch notes? Daddy Sakurai please.

I doubt it. 1.04 seems to be the worst they're going to do to Rosalina. If they do nerf her, they're going to give her some kind of buff to compensate, that's what they seem to be doing with her. She's skillfully dodged the Nerf Hammer so far, I'm praying it stays that way.

The only real change I'd want to see for Rosa is to have nearly all of her kill power focused into Luma. IMO, playing Rosa well should be all about keeping Luma alive and I think Rosa is a little too strong on her own without Luma.

Maybe even things like while Luma is dead, Rosa is weaker in some other way.

 

[Vyseskies]

Wait for 1.1.6, and yes, there WILL be a 1.1.6.

D3, JP, and DH still need their buffs, and they've been doing waves of buffs like this all along, focusing on certain characters for balance each patch.

Next, I expect we'll see Rosa and Sonic get "adjusted" (since they both had the "kiss of death" in 1.1.4) as well as the remainder of trash tier brought up.

hmm why are you so sure about a next patch? I mean, we never know if they'll keep doing balancement patches unless if you work at Nintendo dev team


Also, about Rosa, imo they need to remove Luma's hitbox while returning to Rosa. That avoids those cheap kills at 0% and that is an error.

 

[HimaBook]

Official patch note OP said one of the sheik’s parameter is changed 12->10 (1.1.4->1.1.5). And they said the parameter is needle range. But I guess it’s not range but timer to decide active duration of needle.And I guess shorter duration resulted in shorter range.

I roughly measured duration that needle hitbox is active by following method.

Spoiler: Method

To know last active frame of needle, I put sheik to the place needle barely hit to the opponent. And I estimated frame at which needle hit is last active frame. (So I said "roughly". I have no idea to be more exact.)　

In my measurement, when sheik throw one needle during charging, hitbox is active 4-13F(1.1.4) and 4-11F(1.1.5) in each ver. Though it’s measured roughly, difference of active duration is 2F. Now, please remember that difference of changed parameter is also 2 (12->10). So I guess it's a timer to terminate hitbox of needle (and also could be terminator of needle grafic). But my opinion is based on rough measurement, so I’d like to know more precisive result.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The only real change I'd want to see for Rosa is to have nearly all of her kill power focused into Luma. IMO, playing Rosa well should be all about keeping Luma alive and I think Rosa is a little too strong on her own without Luma.

Maybe even things like while Luma is dead, Rosa is weaker in some other way.

Not really. Without Luma, Rosalina has some of the worst KO power in the game. It doesn't help that her moves aren't particularly fast and they have their range cut down. The only thing Rosalina has going for her when Luma's out is her disjoints, but even those aren't spectacular. She's like Lucario without Aura.

 

[S_B]

hmm why are you so sure about a next patch? I mean, we never know if they'll keep doing balancement patches unless if you work at Nintendo dev team

Educated guesses.

We know from experience that Nintendo doesn't pay for the development of anything unless there's some monetary return involved in it. Since they're not going to be releasing any more content patches for SSB4, the only explanation is one or a combination of the following (ordered from most likely to least likely):

1. Nintendo is (gradually) embracing the competitive scene and wants SSB4 to be better balanced.

2. Along with #1, there will be a SSB NX on release which will actually be SSB4 "Deluxe" with all the DLC, a few more characters, stages, and all of the current balance patches rolled into it.

3. Nintendo has realized how much money there is to be made with e-sports and intends to push SSB4/NX into that spotlight.

Look at it this way: 1.1.5 cost Nintendo money to release, no question. Development teams working on balance patches don't do so for free. Yet, they're under absolutely no obligation to ensure that SSB4 is balanced for the competitive scene. None whatsoever.

In addition, this balance patch was very similar to most other balance patches released this far in that it buffed a few characters, nerfed a few others, but didn't take on all of the characters we KNOW are problematic. For example, JP, DH, D3, Shulk, and more are all characters that are still obviously ailing.

If it was going to be "the very last balance patch", I feel like they would've given more buffs to the the weaker characters. The fact that that remains yet undone says to me that we'll see a 1.1.6 at least.

Not really. Without Luma, Rosalina has some of the worst KO power in the game. It doesn't help that her moves aren't particularly fast and they have their range cut down. The only thing Rosalina has going for her when Luma's out is her disjoints, but even those aren't spectacular. She's like Lucario without Aura.

I think she's better than you give her credit for.

I've seen her Usmash kill mid-weights ~100% without Luma, and her disjoints are quite safe in most situations.

I think also making it take longer for Luma to be able to act after or out of grabbing/throwing Rosa might be a good adjustment.

In any case, I have faith that if they do make changes, they'll be fair about it. The team did a pretty good job figuring out what made characters overwhelming and adjusting accordingly thus far.