Meta "And Then Suddenly..." [1.1.5] Patch Discussion

[GENIUS]

if Toon Link has absolutely no momentum, he will almost never move.

Does this mean he won't be able to get extra height by Up B'ing after getting hit by his own bomb?

 

[Bubba]

Um wait, the ENTIRE Uair? Or only a certain hitbox of it?
Because if the ENTIRE Uair has to hit airborne opponents, how can she hit people on platforms above her?

Though I'll assume it's only a certain small hitbox.

Haven't tested anything yet but from what I've seen and read, it looks like the first hit of Uair had its hitbox moved higher up, or further out, so that it won't hit standing opponents while ground floating.

I doubt the second hit was changed at all, and this doesn't affect opponents on platforms. If anything it makes it easier to hit opponents above you, just not possible to hit opponents directly in front of you.

Just started using the first hit of Uair to extend combos so I'm curious to know if it affects that in any way.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Alright, I've been testing out some things about characters, and I've found a discovery that will scare players.

So comparing both versions, ever since the release up to 1.1.4, Toon Link has had an Up B that halts itself late into the move.
In 1.1.5, Toon Link's recovery move not only halts early, but if Toon Link has absolutely no momentum, he will almost never move.

I know for a fact that this wasn't the case in 1.1.4 and prior, since I could get double the distance of what it did previously.
So what I am hopefully acknowledging is that Toon Link has a worse recovery now, and cannot afford to get hit off stage.

Are you positive about this, or is this an "I wish Link was better than Toon Link so placebo makes me feel he gets something terrible and Link doesn't"? I think we need more people to check this. I can check it later, as I have 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 3DS. Seems really odd why they'd nerf Toon Link's recovery move.

 

[jmanup85]

Can someone check out Ganon's uair? The Ganon boards think it sends people horizontally more, but I'm not so sure and I can't test it.

 

[Radical Larry]

Does this mean he won't be able to get extra height by Up B'ing after getting hit by his own bomb?

He will gain the extra height, but from my tests that I performed this morning, he is unable to move horizontally after being hit by a Bomb and needs to carry momentum; he's sort of like Brawl Link now with Up B only.

Are you positive about this, or is this an "I wish Link was better than Toon Link so placebo makes me feel he gets something terrible and Link doesn't"? I think we need more people to check this. I can check it later, as I have 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 3DS.

I can absolutely confirm this is not a Placebo. If I know at least ONE thing about Toon Link all too well, it's his poor horizontal movement in Up B near the end. It seems to now start before the middle of the attack, and then just completely halts him.

You yourself could check by doing these:

Death Run - Go off the stage, perform both Up B's with the momentum going, and see who dies first.
No Momentum - Just jump, Up B and move forward, see which garners more distance.
Bomb Jump Recovery - An opposite Death Run and combination with No Momentum. Take out a Bomb, jump when it's about to explode, recover, let it explode, gain momentum by going forward and use the recovery again.

These are actually decent tests in my opinion, and do them all on Omega Battlefield.

 

[Bubba]

Nayru's Love intangibility from 5->12 to 5->15.

Cred. @Meshima

 

[Radical Larry]

I need someone to see if they can test possible U-Tilt and D-Tilt changes on .

U-Tilt seems slower. Might be highly mistaken.

 

[Aninymouse]

No Marth buffs then. rip marth.

Dude are you serious? Marth got some fantastic buffs in 1.1.3. He's good now.

Also, these kinds of posts are not allowed here. That's why we have the "Competitive Impressions" thread.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

For those curious of the ZSS Nair change:

Spoiler: Before

Spoiler: After

Many thanks! It looks like the move's angle shifted down a little on the first hitbox? Either way, it doesn't look like a severe change!

Also... someone with sufficient posting rights should add ZSS's kbg and bkb changes :-D

 

[Yikarur]

I need someone to see if they can test possible U-Tilt and D-Tilt changes on .

U-Tilt seems slower. Might be highly mistaken.

You're late to the party. Most changes have already bin uncovered from the data files and Ike, Ryu and Toon Link belong not to these.

 

[FallofBrawl]

You're late to the party. Most changes have already bin uncovered from the data files and Ike, Ryu and Toon Link belong not to these.

TheWall says that the FAF on yoshis dthrow have been reduced and can reliably combo into up air.. I'm not home and I need your expertise

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is unchanged.

 

[TurboLink]

So Link didn't get any mobility buffs? Urgh.

 

[Aninymouse]

Many thanks! It looks like the move's angle shifted down a little on the first hitbox? Either way, it doesn't look like a severe change!

Also... someone with sufficient posting rights should add ZSS's kbg and bkb changes :-D

Liberation will add all the confirmed stuff to the master list in maybe 12 hours or so. Just be patient.

It took us almost a week to get the 1.1.4 change log finalized. Don't be surprised if there are some last-minute changes in 1.1.5 that don't get added until a few days from now. That would be perfectly normal.

 

[Violet Broregarde]

I checked the diffs there's a new hitbox that appears 2 frames before the main hitbox does. so comes out on frame 8

this is not confirmed, and is false according to the diffs
it however is bigger and stronger, but not faster too

Where are the diffs?

 

[Tri Knight]

So Link didn't get any mobility buffs? Urgh.

Nothing is set in stone yet. He probably didn't, but Dash Attack just became an even more potent kill move at least.

I don't think his dash speed changed at all. I forgot to check his jumpsquat and air speed but I probably should.

 

[Froggy]

Are there any other changes for Pacman?

He wasn't included in the new thread when it was originally posted so I'm worried some of the testers forgot about him when they were doing this.

 

[shrooby]

Also... someone with sufficient posting rights should add ZSS's kbg and bkb changes :-D

What are the exact numbers?

 

[TurboLink]

Nothing is set in stone yet. He probably didn't, but Dash Attack just became an even more potent kill move at least.

I don't think his dash speed changed at all. I forgot to check his jumpsquat and air speed but I probably should.

Dash attack is probably his worst kill move. There's no way to combo into it when it matters the most from what I've seen. It pretty much requires a back roll read and high level players don't generally predictably roll backwards. Also, some rolls go farther than others. And Link doesn't have the speed to close the gap and use dash attack before they're able to move again. It might hit hard but so does the majority of Ganondorf's moveset. And look where he is on most tier lists. If there's one thing you should take from the Smash Bros. series competitively, it's that power alone means little to nothing and that speed is king.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

ZSS Diffs
UAIR
Damage - 8% --> 6.5%
KBG - 110 --> 125

NAIR
Damage - 10% --> 8%
KBG - 80 --> 96
BKB - 40 --> 38
[Various size changes, roughly 1 unit less in all changes]*

BACK THROW
Damage - 4 --> 6
KBG - 60 --> 45
BKB - 70 --> 72

DOWN THROW
Damage - 5 --> 3
KBG - 25 --> 60
BKB - 100 --> 90

SIDE B 1
BKB - 80 --> 100

SIDE B [Middle Hits]
Damage - 0.8 --> 1.2
KBG - 90 --> 70
[Various size changes]

SIDE B FINAL
Damage - 6 --> 7.5
[Various size changes]

What are the exact numbers?

Here you go!

 

[Radical Larry]

Dash attack is probably his worst kill move. There's no way to combo into it when it matters the most from what I've seen. It pretty much requires a back roll read and high level players don't generally predictably roll backwards. Also, some rolls go farther than others. And Link doesn't have the speed to close the gap and use dash attack before they're able to move again. It might hit hard but so does the majority of Ganondorf's moveset. And look where he is on most tier lists. If there's one thing you should take from the Smash Bros. series competitively, it's that power alone means little to nothing and that speed is king.

Looks like someone doesn't know Link's special Dash Attack setup.
Dirty N-Air (Back Hitbox, Late) > Dash Attack works.
Or how about reading a recovery with a dash attack?
Jab 3 > Dash Attack?
Bomb > Dash?

Don't think that Link doesn't have the prowess to do his dash attack setup. It's his slowest kill move, but there are people who know how to link into it. I can even 50/50 it from a Z-Air Ledge Getup if Z-Air's second hit connects (if I can confirm a grab off of it, I can pretty much 50/50 a Dash Attack).

 

[BSP]

Are there any other changes for Pacman?

He wasn't included in the new thread when it was originally posted so I'm worried some of the testers forgot about him when they were doing this.

I would like confirmation that his F and U smash buffs actually happened. I'm getting the same knockback numbers for those moves that I got pre patch.

Is there a glitch or something?

 

[Furret]

Where are the diffs?

check page 2-3 of the thread

Um wait, the ENTIRE Uair? Or only a certain hitbox of it?

just a certain part required for the infinite

 

[Bubba]

Don't think that Link doesn't have the prowess to do his dash attack setup. It's his slowest kill move, but there are people who know how to link into it.

Icwutudidthar.

 

[DrROBschiz]

We all knew Peach was losing the infinite and I say good riddance (i couldnt pull it off anyways)

It remains to be seen if this will affect her other setups out of Up Air since some players do use Ground Float up Airs on grounded opponents.

I honestly dont find it overly useful. Has anyone confirmed that they moved the hitbox slightly higher? It sounds like that they fixed it in a different way

 

[Bubba]

Are there any other changes for Pacman?

He wasn't included in the new thread when it was originally posted so I'm worried some of the testers forgot about him when they were doing this.

I would like confirmation that his F and U smash buffs actually happened. I'm getting the same knockback numbers for those moves that I got pre patch.

Is there a glitch or something?

• Bair KBG: 98 -> 100
• Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 97/100 -> 99/102
• Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG:95/90 -> 97/92
• Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 84/90 -> 86/92

 

[Deleted member]

He will gain the extra height, but from my tests that I performed this morning, he is unable to move horizontally after being hit by a Bomb and needs to carry momentum; he's sort of like Brawl Link now with Up B only.



I can absolutely confirm this is not a Placebo. If I know at least ONE thing about Toon Link all too well, it's his poor horizontal movement in Up B near the end. It seems to now start before the middle of the attack, and then just completely halts him.

You yourself could check by doing these:

Death Run - Go off the stage, perform both Up B's with the momentum going, and see who dies first.
No Momentum - Just jump, Up B and move forward, see which garners more distance.
Bomb Jump Recovery - An opposite Death Run and combination with No Momentum. Take out a Bomb, jump when it's about to explode, recover, let it explode, gain momentum by going forward and use the recovery again.

These are actually decent tests in my opinion, and do them all on Omega Battlefield.

TLs recovery has always been worse than links horizontally. You couldn't move horizontally if you had no momentum before.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Due to Samus's fall speed/gravity increase, she now dies 1-2% later than before on vertical based moves.

Using Palutena's Up Smash on her on Omega Brinstar, on 1.1.4 she died at 105%, but in 1.1.5, she dies sometimes at 106%, but always at 107%.

 

[Bubba]

We all knew Peach was losing the infinite and I say good riddance (i couldnt pull it off anyways)

I honestly dont find it overly useful.

Exactly why I don't think it should've been patched but to each their own and what's done is done.

My guess is they moved it up higher and out further. My screen replacement is coming today so I'll finally be able to test some things out.

 

[DrROBschiz]

If they moved it up it could be seen as a buff... at least in the way i use it.

Doesnt seem like thats the case based on the data. Looks more like they trimmed the hitbox to disable the infinite connecting

 

[Furret]

Exactly why I don't think it should've been patched but to each their own and what's done is done.

My guess is they moved it up higher and out further. My screen replacement is coming today so I'll finally be able to test some things out.

If they moved it up it could be seen as a buff... at least in the way i use it.

Doesnt seem like thats the case based on the data. Looks more like they trimmed the hitbox to disable the infinite connecting

It was said multiple times before a hitbox was adjusted to hit airborne opponents only, there are no other changes to the hitboxes on the move

 

[pikazz]

I want confirmation on this but I honestly think Bayonettas Taunts can end even earlier in this patch than before. especially her Side Taunt

its just silly nilly, but taunts is an important stuff in the meta game right?

 

[jespoke]

Hey @Methacrylate the range increases on Ganondorf you though were Grab/Dashgrab seem to be the grabboxes of Side-B 1 and 2 as far as i can tell form Sammi's diffs

 

[DrROBschiz]

So its a debuff for any Peach player that used UpAir from a Ground float on a grounded opponent.... lol

Really specific and almost negligible for Peach mains

 

[Bowserboy3]

I have found an odd Samus change.

Homing Missiles and Super Missiles are launched out of the arm cannon quicker, but endlag remains the same, and they also stay out on the battlefield for the same distance. Basically means the hitbox is out on the battlefield quicker.

 

[wildvine47]

So do we have confirmation then that Jiggly got absolutely nothing in this patch? Because if so, poor Jiggles man. She's been consistently pretty low this game since launch and hasn't gotten ANYTHING worthwhile in any of the post-launch patches.

 

[Eureka]

Was the knockback growth on Finishing Touch reduced entirely or just the air version?

 

[Bubba]

It was said multiple times before a hitbox was adjusted to hit airborne opponents only, there are no other changes to the hitboxes on the move
View attachment 100350

Whoops, missed that. You can see the confusion in "hit airborne opponents only" though, no? Because if a player is standing on a platform, will the first hit sill connect? Technically, they are grounded.

 

[Lavani]

Um wait, the ENTIRE Uair? Or only a certain hitbox of it?
Because if the ENTIRE Uair has to hit airborne opponents, how can she hit people on platforms above her?

Though I'll assume it's only a certain small hitbox.

Just the hitbox tinted red here:

The other hitboxes still function as before, it really only affects the infinite or trying to land on someone with uair (which...isn't the best of ideas in the first place)

Was the knockback growth on Finishing Touch reduced entirely or just the air version?

KBG was only reduced for the air version, the grounded version's the same as before.

 

[Furret]

Whoops, missed that. You can see the confusion in "hit airborne opponents only" though, no? Because if a player is standing on a platform, will the first hit sill connect? Technically, they are grounded.

more then likely it will hit, It's one hitbox in a sea of other hitboxes.

thanks