All Things Shiny Here. Everything about Falco's Shine/Reflector [Updated 24th Nov]

[sMexy-Blu]

This is a very good thread Sticky Nao!

 

[Fluke]

Thanks! Glad to know you guys like it.

Sadly, with the low number of mys friends who play Brawl (traveling distance and interest issue) and my boredom or producing nothing special versing CPUs, I've barely play enough brawl myself to develop anything new.

I included some updates I had actually completed the week after the last update, but didn't release since I didn't have that much new info. But now there doesn't seem to be much more coming (as the 100% shine trip theory has died) so I've just decided to add that max trip % thing I also did a while back to place it all in the front post.

 

[Denzi]

Rated 5/5

I hope to eventually see more on the double shine, because as of right now, I am confused.
Other than the small things than need to be looked in to, you did a great job.

 

[Fluke]

Hmm. I think I had a pic of the double shine somewhere. I'll put it up soon.

Do you think I should put the items that can be reflected? Maybe include the stuff that might not as known as well such as the water pokemon which pushes you (forgot name), the tree/rock pokemon and other random stuff like that?


Does anyone have any new ideas on what to do with the shine?
Reduce lag of Shine? Nope
100% Trip? No find.

Double Shine? Nothing so far.

 

[Fluke]

New update: Some NEW INTERESTING STUFF. (Worth the bump/double post)

24th November 08
-Added DShine Picture
-Added “Pseudo Trip Combo”
-Added “Developments” Section for everyone to help improve the usability and understanding of the shine.

Not much? Well if you look into the new developments section:

6. Developments!

- Things to Test/Add
- Shine to Laserlock
- Double Shine
- Inconsistency of Physical and Reflective Hit Hypothesis

I think we are getting somewhere :D


CONTRIBUTE! NOW!

Doesn't have to be the stuff listed, can be anything you have in mind.

 

[Tommy_G]

I'm about 95% sure that the shine trips 100% at a fixed distance at about 2/3rds of the full physical hit box out. It's a really tight spacing for it.

To answer the question about the bombs and grenades at the end, I believe that it has both reflective properties and physical properties. It hits the bomb/grenade with the reflective part of the shine, making the flash, and then hits with the physical part causing it to explode. It all happens really fast. It hits Falco because he's sticking his leg out when he kicks the shine.

 

[Fluke]

I'm about 95% sure that the shine trips 100% at a fixed distance at about 2/3rds of the full physical hit box out. It's a really tight spacing for it.

So we have this idea of a "sweetspot" of the shine which has guaranteed trip, but at 2/3 of the distance.

To what extensive measuring to you want? Should we compare the 2/3 distance by measuring full distance of the shine via floor pattern of the stage, Final Destination, in the picture showing the range of the shine hitbox, then have the falco stationary, and revert the character to the exactly same spot each time to test?

And also then assume for now that any other spot is around 50% chance?

To answer the question about the bombs and grenades at the end, I believe that it has both reflective properties and physical properties. It hits the bomb/grenade with the reflective part of the shine, making the flash, and then hits with the physical part causing it to explode. It all happens really fast. It hits Falco because he's sticking his leg out when he kicks the shine.

I see. Well that debunks my idea (which is a good thing such there would be a lot of individual frame analysis to do). So basically the reflective hitbox hits the bomb in the path of the physical hitbox. The reflective hitbox hits it first since it is larger than the physical.

 

[Vlade]

Ok well this is probably known by everyone, but there is a way to cancel the reflector. It may not be very practical, but I thought I'd just share this anyway to add to your guide.

To cancel the reflector just use it, and before the animation is finished land in water. That's right, water. Everyone probably already knows about water over-riding whatever you were previously doing and you start swimming. So yes, when your reflector is coming back and you hit the water, you've cancelled it

This also applies for springs. I know that there are springs on pictochat and flatzone 2. Pictochat is legal, although I don't know many falco mainers that would choose this stage . But if you're versing sonic, you can land on his spring while in the reflector animation to cancel it. Of course, this could also be used in doubles if you had sonic as your partner.

2 extremely situational ways of cancelling the reflector.

 

[Fluke]

Ok well this is probably known by everyone, but there is a way to cancel the reflector. It may not be very practical, but I thought I'd just share this anyway to add to your guide.

To cancel the reflector just use it, and before the animation is finished land in water. That's right, water. Everyone probably already knows about water over-riding whatever you were previously doing and you start swimming. So yes, when your reflector is coming back and you hit the water, you've cancelled it

This also applies for springs. I know that there are springs on pictochat and flatzone 2. Pictochat is legal, although I don't know many falco mainers that would choose this stage . But if you're versing sonic, you can land on his spring while in the reflector animation to cancel it. Of course, this could also be used in doubles if you had sonic as your partner.

2 extremely situational ways of cancelling the reflector.

Wow. I never tried that. (When I read the first line I was like " as if!")



Ideas are coming up already. A way to keep the opponent stuck in water at "safe" distance by Shine -> water ->get out -> Shine _> repeat (similar to dairing)??

Not sure about the spring though.

 

[Vlade]

For water-cancelling Japes comes to mind, although you can't do repeated shines. This will definitely occurr more often than using a spring, especially when it's falco's counterpick. But your method of keeping opponents in the water sounds ideal, but only in still water (delfino and pirate ship). I was thinking on Japes you could knock them off the platform into the water, jump in, let the water carry you to the far ledge and edgehog, etc.

The spring works, although it is EXTREMELY situational and will probably only have a tiny chance of ever occurring, even with the right conditions. But yes the spring almost has the same properties as water. When you bounce on a spring you end the animation you were previously doing and then you go into the 'spring-bounce' animation.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

For water-cancelling Japes comes to mind, although you can't do repeated shines. This will definitely occurr more often than using a spring, especially when it's falco's counterpick. But your method of keeping opponents in the water sounds ideal, but only in still water (delfino and pirate ship). I was thinking on Japes you could knock them off the platform into the water, jump in, let the water carry you to the far ledge and edgehog, etc.

The spring works, although it is EXTREMELY situational and will probably only have a tiny chance of ever occurring, even with the right conditions. But yes the spring almost has the same properties as water. When you bounce on a spring you end the animation you were previously doing and then you go into the 'spring-bounce' animation.

I am liking the possibilities of the cancelled reflectors on the spring. With cancelling the bounce in the springs you could follow up with an aerial attack maybe Dair? I will try that out the next time I get the chance.

Just thought of something with the reflector on Jungle Japes. I can see some comboing potential if you SH the reflector from the main platform while they are on one of the sides. By using the SH you can reflect towards them, hit them and either get a trip, knock them in the water or disrupt a jump, then DI back towards the main platform. Because you are using the reflector in the air and they have to jump to get to you there should not be any complications from the lag of the reflector.

Anyway depending how they got hit with the reflector (trip, shield stun, knocked off, disrupte) you can follow up with something else. SHDL is probably the one thing that comes to mind. If you trip them or disrupt them you can SHDL further disrupting them and can countinue with an aerial attack maybe even repeat with hitting them with the reflector. If they shield your shine most likely I see they would take the chance to pursuit you with the lag of the reflector you would have, but I think because of the time it takes to get to you, the shine lag will have ended and you can try to shield grab an on coming attack. If knocked into the water it is a simple matter of edgehogging as you are in the perfect position to do so. If you do get a shield grab you are probably, so close th the ledge that you can dthrow and spike into the water. Although all this is just an idea, I have not tried it yet, but is sounds promising.

 

[Tommy_G]

I think it's just 100% at the sweet spot and 0% everywhere else. People have just been hitting the sweet spot 50% of the time to give off the illusion of tripping 50% of the time.

I said about 2/3rds but do some testing. It might be a little after or a little sooner.

 

[Fluke]

I think it's just 100% at the sweet spot and 0% everywhere else. People have just been hitting the sweet spot 50% of the time to give off the illusion of tripping 50% of the time.

I said about 2/3rds but do some testing. It might be a little after or a little sooner.

But I tripped countless times at the very start and beginning as well.

However, I also notice there seems to be more chance at the ~ 2/3 mark.






And about the shine lag canceling, let's hope there is a way to really pull something cool off.

Hmm, what about shining when landing on a banana? I should try that...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I really think we need frame data in order to confirm all this stuff regarding tripping. It just seems near impossible to accurately gauge distance without it. Besides most of the tests have been against standing targets I bet.

 

[Fluke]

I really think we need frame data in order to confirm all this stuff regarding tripping. It just seems near impossible to accurately gauge distance without it. Besides most of the tests have been against standing targets I bet.

I think so too, but I can't do it since I don't have the equipment/software. I barely can get a vid up about stuff myself as well.


Maybe ask 3GOD? He was the one who got the Falco frame data.

 

[Fluke]

I was testing the shine against diddy's Up b "Rocketbarrel boost", and found something good.

Usually when you hit diddy(with most attacks) with rocketbarrels as he charges up, the barrels flying around randomly, hitting people either directly in the air, or via explosion in contact with a solid object (eg wall/ground)

Usually it is not exactly safe try and punish diddy during the charging up of his up b as diddy can release the charged barrels and fly/hurt into you, or spike you if you are below him, or even the barrels fly around and own you (such as getting stage spiked by barrels when trying to quicking regrab the edge after [insert aerial here]ing diddy.



HOWEVER!!


If you shine diddy. The barrels becomes yours! So even diddy will get hit by the barrels. What's more, there is always the chance you hit the barrels directing instead, and it EXPLODES RIGHT THERE, IN THE AIR, ON DIDDY.

This makes it a safe move as well, as the shine is a disjointed hitbox, and SAFE since if you miss, diddy can do nothing but release his barrels.

Also, you can reflect the flying barrels if they are not yours, but they still fly randomly everywhere afterwards.



So when is this useful? Well there are two MAIN reasons why diddy would up b:

1. To recover while off stage:
If diddy is offstage and charging up, shine him in attempt to gimp him. HOWEVER only do this if he is at least the plaform level or you will gimp yourself, being unable to come back with only a firebird and possible your double jump.

2. Rocketbarrel cancel.
Often when you take hold of his bananas. Diddy would try to up b as you throw it, since if the banana hits, the barrels will fly, hopefully hitting you for quite a fair bit of dmg compared to the measley 4-5% from the thrown banana. It also lets him time to regain his banana when you are busy dodging (ALSO REFLECTING the barrels).

It is not wrong for diddy to attempt to predict the throw and counter right? I mean you would probably had thrown it instantly since you never practiced any follow up with a banana with falco (mind you, falco's glide toss is deadly)

So you haven't been banana-throwing-happy. Now what? Well. You you could punish the lag/freefall of his up b, but you could ALSO just shine him instead. Since he is ont he ground, the barrels that fly (which are yours) have the chance to just head straight to the ground where diddy is and KABOOM. If not, well now you have a banana to hit the (possibly) tripped diddy.

 

[Denzi]

You can seriously reflect Diddy's barrels? That's awesome!

 

[Vlade]

Hmm I just thought of another good idea about water-cancelling the reflector on japes. When you verse characters like ROB and you spike them into the water, they can usually get out and safely recover. However, if you follow up the dair with a shine, the hitstun might keep them in the water an extra bit longer which will give them a less chance of surviving?

I'll have to go test this out.

 

[mongoosedog927]

Awesome thread. Falco's reflector isn't like any other move in the game. We should treat it like we do. Thanx =D

 

[Air King]

Great guide all around, I'm going to go practice this now!

 

[Zanthos25]

Check out the thread on Instant Full Jumped Shine (IFJS) for a revised version of this.

Found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218778


I'd hate to bump an old thread (potentially) but I believe I have a Down-B (Reflector) tactic that, if its known, it certainly is not utilized much. I did do a search beforehand on the various AT and Falco guides and I did not find anything (did not want to create a new topic either). I know this is my first post, but someone should definitely look into this (basically joined just to post this). Wishing I had a video but, if someone is really interested in reproducing this I can send them a .bin format file containing the save.

Keep in mind that anything with Falco's reflector cannot be spammed in a competitive match, or people will catch on.

Ok basically, its a Full Reflector Jump (not good with describing things here)

Now, what does this do, you ask? It allows you to perform the reflector without the ground lag associated with it. Now granted, you are semi-vulnerable in the air while using it, but it shouldn't be spammed either way. Ok here are some details pertaining to it:

-You are jumping (full jump not shorthopping) and performing Down B simultaneously. There is a noticable difference when you compare it to simply normal jumping Down B to insta-jumping Down B. You should be propelled into the air with reflector coming out immediately with no noticeable lag upon landing.

-It is best to map the jump button to L (atleast in my experience) similar to IAP (Instant Aerial Phantasm) and is probably performed similar to IAP, except you are using DownB instead of Side B. The jump button, Down on the control stick and B (special) are all pressed instantly (roughly)

-This "tech" takes some skill, and timing to get down, and if you mess up the combination, you are likely to suicide or side B off the stage.

If you are doing this correctly, you should be able to perform an Aerial attack or laser/silent laser before hitting the ground. Full jump reflector---> aerial/airdodge/laser (for instance). Compared with using regular jump (or shorthopping) and reflector, there is noticeable landing lag after using DownB and you can't aerial or laser...you are met with lag on the ground.

Some of you have probably noticed that using the reflector works with your momentum in the air, and you can steer yourself depending on which way you are headed. I can perform two of these momentum guided-reflectors (from the center of FD) putting me off the stage on in which I can phantasm back on (keep in mind that also uses up your jumps). But that's not all.

Ledgehogging/Grabbing to Insta-Down B to Phantasm

I apologize if my use of smash lingo is incorrect, I'm not a regular and don't play competitively at all. If this isn't widely known (I haven't heard much about it after searching smashboards or youtube), I wanted to explain the mechanics behind this. You can use the same button combination above to perform Down B thus insta-shining while grabbing the ledge afterwards.

-If you are doing this right you should popup a little from the ledge after you performed the shine and momentum would put you back onto the ledge. This shine hits people camping relatively close to the edge (needs more testing ofcourse). So basically you could do this indefinitely on the ledge if you got the timing right ----ledgeshine----ledgeshine repeatedly.

-You can use ledgehopped (Is jump canceled the term?) reflector---> momentum backwards---phantasm---back on the ledge to vary your ledge game a bit. If your timing is correct you can either grab the ledge or make it back to the stage doing this. Also works with firebird of course.

- Now if this is done incorrectly, you will most certainly fall to your doom, so there are some risks and it takes some practice to nail the timing, but it helps mix up your game.

In the photo below, I performed a ledgehopped shine (pressing jump and Down B simultaneously) where the momentum carried me upward. After the conclusion of the move I would regrab the edge.

You can also shift your momentum off the edge and use a phantasm or firebird to get on the edge/stage, but it's hard to depict with a picture.

Some Applications to the above techs

Now with the applications listed below, the reflector doesn't necessarily have to hit your foe, but the attacks listed are good follow-ups regardless.

-Full jumped reflector (abbreviated) FJR to Dair
-FJR to Bair
-FJR to Nair
-FJR to Laser/silent laser (can only get 1 off I believe)
-FJR to aerial phantasm

-Using FJR to navigate the stage/get behind opponents
-Potential footstool when using
-FJR to reflector (punishable if shieldgrabbed)
-U-throw to FJR
-It CAN be fastfalled at the end of the move

-Fall/jump off the stage and use the momentum bounce of FJR to get back to the stage.
-Can edgeguard more effectively and bait mid-air opponents attempting to recover

The FJR is best to hit people with in mid-air as it does not reach grounded opponents.

This photo below is the best proof I can offer at the moment.

If you notice, there is an invisible puddle near Falco signifying that he's used up his double jump. Now I jumped first to show you that I am executing a jump and down B simultaneously. In this example, jumping first then performing the move is not advised...as you'll lose your second jump.

So there we go, I wouldn't want to go out and give a detailed explanation if its not necessary. There is nothing too advanced about this move, but like I said, it helps to mix up Falco's game...and perhaps get a little more use out of his reflector.

 

[FitzC.]

nice thread the pictures kept it entertaining

 

[Firstaidguitar1]

Good thread man. Sat here and read everything word for word.

 

[Roxas1988]

THANKS FOR THIS THREAD been lookin for some shine threads lately.

 

[1 800 brawlr]

woww lots of details [=