Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

[MintyBreeze]

Yeah... I tried playing as Charizard for a bit in my preludes between characters, and his grab range is definitely something you need to respect. Not to mention his Flamethrower, which is an edge-guarding/gimping tool like Bowser's, and Rock Smash, which - by the way - could save Charizard from an U-Air and potentially damage the offender. e-e Just look at what happens to Dedede...
In a way, he's sort of like Dedede in that he likes to keep his enemies out, but he's much more mobile and has a decent recovery both horizontally and vertically; I'd argue that he has the most durability in the game if you take account his weight and potential recovery. Here's a video of him in action, and while it's exaggerated, it gives you an idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m21MbK87e4
And here's a video of a fairly good Charizard player against a Fox. It has customs enabled, but still seems to be fairly helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye84Itz1Ptg
Both are pre-patch, so keep that in mind.

Hopefully I didn't glorify Charizard, because he definitely has pronounced weaknesses.

 

[Woker!]

vs
This MU is like 60:40 Fox.
no, its not a free game like most of the fox mains think it is, rob can be VERY hard if you dont know the mu right and if the rob player knows what hes doing.
ROB can dair our fire fox very very easy, he can gimp us that way, giro and lazer stops our side b, that means rob can make us go under the stage, and thats a very bad place for us since he can dair spike us and can kill us at low%. Also, his lazer can make us lose our jump, so yeah, theres another option for rob to make us go under stage, in other words, be VERY carefull everytime you are outside the stage vs a smart rob.
be carefull if you want to go to the middle of stage with side b, he can bair, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, jab, ftilt and dtilt to stop our side b.

He can combo us with u tilt, dthrow to uair (robo hoohaa) is great for them to put us in a bad position, another thing, you NEED to be near rob, yeah, we have shine, good, but dont get confortable, a smart rob will know HOW to use his projectiles, shine has a lot of lag if it doesnt reflect anything, so a smart rob will always make you use shine so he can punish with almost everything, use shine carefully, dont spam it,it isnt like brawl was. u throw can kill us like at 140%.

now, for the good part, jab jab kills rob, we can start the jab jab combo like in 25% and above, the rob player will almost always try to jump or do up b to get out from our jabs, just read that, we can do uair, bair or even fair spike fast fall into lock :D we can combo that robot very easy, if rob is above you, just be carefull of his nair, his bair and dair can be usefull to him, but our uair comes out a lot faster, so yeah, every time hes in the air, dont let him touch the ground, just be carefull of his nair, we cant gimp that robot, well... we CAN, but is very hard, just try to nair and bair him until he runs out of gas, but it would be better to wait on the stage, his uair can hit us when he es under the stage, so yeah, just wait.
thats pretty much for this mu, just put pressure to rob and dont get outside of the stage, and if you are outside just be very carefull with his giro and his dair.

 

[Woker!]

vs
This MU is like 60:40 Fox.
no, its not a free game like most of the fox mains think it is, rob can be VERY hard if you dont know the mu right and if the rob player knows what hes doing.
ROB can dair our fire fox very very easy, he can gimp us that way, giro and lazer stops our side b, that means rob can make us go under the stage, and thats a very bad place for us since he can dair spike us and can kill us at low%. Also, his lazer can make us lose our jump, so yeah, theres another option for rob to make us go under stage, in other words, be VERY carefull everytime you are outside the stage vs a smart rob.
be carefull if you want to go to the middle of stage with side b, he can bair, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, jab, ftilt and dtilt to stop our side b.

He can combo us with u tilt, dthrow to uair (robo hoohaa) is great for them to put us in a bad position, another thing, you NEED to be near rob, yeah, we have shine, good, but dont get confortable, a smart rob will know HOW to use his projectiles, shine has a lot of lag if it doesnt reflect anything, so a smart rob will always make you use shine so he can punish with almost everything, use shine carefully, dont spam it,it isnt like brawl was. u throw can kill us like at 140%.

now, for the good part, jab jab kills rob, we can start the jab jab combo like in 25% and above, the rob player will almost always try to jump or do up b to get out from our jabs, just read that, we can do uair, bair or even fair spike fast fall into lock :D we can combo that robot very easy, if rob is above you, just be carefull of his nair, his bair and dair can be usefull to him, but our uair comes out a lot faster, so yeah, every time hes in the air, dont let him touch the ground, just be carefull of his nair, we cant gimp that robot, well... we CAN, but is very hard, just try to nair and bair him until he runs out of gas, but it would be better to wait on the stage, his uair can hit us when he es under the stage, so yeah, just wait.
thats pretty much for this mu, just put pressure to rob and dont get outside of the stage, and if you are outside just be very carefull with his giro and his dair.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Hi olimar main here. As far as the matchup with fox I feel like its more so 60-40 in Fox's favor. Fox's main tools in the matchup are jabs,jab cancels, upsmash,dash attack/grab to punish landings, and most notably his reflector. Literally all of olimar's smashes can be reflected back ,so all olimar mains will be wary on that fact. As far as olimar I believe in our situation we would try to wall you out and space ourselves to deal with most of your tools. Once fox gets in it becomes rather difficult for olimar. Both die ridculously early from each other, just to note.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We'll move on this week to discuss more characters. Two weeks to focus on:

vs
vs
vs

I have experience vs Ike, some Jiggs experience, and... well no MKs. They're all in their bat-cave.

There's like one MK in London who is still yung in skill, so that's not really good mu experience. I can't comment on that mu, but @ Katakiri posted the link in this mu thread to his thread in the Meta Knight boards a few months ago. He has a good write up on the Fox vs MK mu and hopefully he can share his insight with us here.

I do think though that MK just gets harder and harder to fight against the more he gets buffed, in two patches MK has been improved while we stay the same.

 

[Macchiato]

50-50 both with customs and non-customs.

I'll be going in Puff's perspective. In the start of the match, Fox will probably start shooting lasers. We can easily avoid that by croaching. Fox's approach are normally DA, Nair, or Dash Grab. I'm P sure that DA and Nair aren't safe on shield and Nair beats out his dash grab. Fox can rush us down well though. Our range is also fairly similar but his moves are faster. He also kills earlier than us with his Usmash and Uair killing us at about 70%. Our Bair kills Fox at about 90%. I find Usmash a good tool for this match-up and it'll kill at 90%. Rollout is also a good kill mixup which can kill at around 95% If he whiffs a Usmash or misspaces a DA on shield, we get a Rest. Edgeguarding is a doable thing for Fox but it's harder for him than for us. Offstage Fox is basically a free kill, any aerial can gimp Firefox. Our Nair beats out Phantasm. With customs, Jigglypuff's only one that's better than the default is Hyper Voice which is still p situational. It's good for pushing opponents away from the ledge when it's ledge cancelled or edgeguarding when it's ledge cancelled. Twisting Fox is another kill option. Expect Jigglypuff to use 1131 with customs.

 

[the king of murder]

vs
Take this with a grain of salt. I have experience versus Fox through online battling(though not your typical For Glory scrubs) though this may be a bit different offline.

I feel like this MU is about even(mayyybe slightly in Fox favor)

First to the positives of Ike

We outrange Fox with our disjoints(besides Laser) and have more kill power than Fox.

Fox is a fast faller, which means Ike juggles the **** out of him with all kind of things(Ike has a lot of combo starters with Nair, Dtilt, grab, Jab) at low to mid percents and even at higher percents we have U-throw->Fair and Uair which depending on the position can kill suprisingly well.

Ike can completly destroy Fox recovery through Eruption(even his low side b) and Fox has to play a deadly 50/50 guess in Ikes favor(since Ike doesnt get punished for guessing wrong). Either Fox recovers low and gets blue flamed(or even Dair spiked) or he recovers high and he gets hit with anything else. At the same time, Fox isn't a big offstage threat so Ike gets to live pretty long. This is very much an issue if we get a stock lead as we can play very campy afterwards.

We also have Jab as a gtfo move if Fox gets too close for us.

Fox positives
His overwhelming speed makes up a lot of his short comings. First of all despite not being known for being a combo machine, he can get some ugly strings on Ike because Ikes disadvantage is really bad. Utilt strings, Dtilt heck even grab can lead to some strings that do some major damage. Jab cancels are the universal god tools everyone knows and even Ike isn't safe from them which can fix up some of Foxys killing issues via U-smash or just rack up a lot of damage).Ike never wants Foxy too close. Fox mobilty and low lag moves also allows Fox to dance around Ike which means it's going to be hell if Fox is in the lead.

Tl:dr
Overall I feel like Ike has the better advantage, Fox the better neutral and both about the same disadvantage. If one of them has the lead, this MU could shift in their favor easily.

 

[Envioux]

On the Jiggly/Fox matchup, Jiggly main speaking here.

I'd put 60:40 in Jigg's favor, mainly because Fox offstage absurdly free. Fox can't reliably combo us with utilt or anything and out of throw options are difficult without reading our DI. We may be light and die quicker to U-Smash/U-Air, but Fox still has a rough time if we play very patiently. Fox also can't laser camp us because we can just duck under it & that's easy conditioning for whatever running approach Fox has (usually grab/usmash). Also, we aren't reliably stuck in Fox's jab setups because we are so light.

As for stages you want to take Jigglypuff, anything with a low ceiling like Halberd for example. Stages to ban, lylat and probably dreamland. In terms of matchup advice, play patient yourself and try to get us directly above you. Punish our landings.

 

[Jamurai]

vs

MK boards discussed this a while ago (April) and decided that this matchup is 60:40 in MK's favour. This summary is the impression I got from it.

On-stage, it's pretty even if MK plays safely and fishes for grabs, which he should. If Fox gets momentum (from a grab for example) he doesn't get much out of it because of MK's multiple jumps, Dair camping, and landing mixup options in Tornado and DCape. It's difficult for him to camp with lasers because they're laggy and MK is fast on the ground allowing him to get in quickly and punish. MK has superior juggling and if he manages to grab or dash attack Fox, the damage MK can do with the resulting combo is nasty. DA to Up-B is easy to land on Fox and is a b&b kill setup, for example. This all said, if the MK isn't careful and doesn't respect Fox's neutral, Fox has all the tools he needs to punish that hard.

Off-stage is a completely different story. Fox's recoveries are pretty telegraphed and MK can cover pretty much every option just by hopping with his back to the ledge, catching Fox in whatever he does with the disjointed back hitbox of Nair, fastfalling backwards off stage if Fox tries to recover low or level with the stage. Our multiple jumps and amazing recovery mean we can easily go low for a kill if Fox attempts to recover low with Up-B (he should try to never do so, but easier said than done). Even on the ledge, Fox is in a bad position as our quick D-tilt covers half his ledge options.

Basically if the MK respects Fox and gets in a few solid punishes, gaining momentum, Fox is in trouble, especially if MK gets him off-stage. Once Fox gets momentum back he doesn't give it up easily though. It's not a terrible matchup for Fox but it's not exactly great if the MK is good.

EDIT: Forgot to mention some stuff:

• Compared to other characters MK has an easier time escaping Fox's jab lock
• MK has superior juggling and combo ability than Fox in general, Fox's fast-faller status doesn't help him in this regard; it makes combos which are iffy on other characters much more reliable on Fox, eg. DA > Tornado at early percents
• Also, this matchup has only gotten better for us in the latest patch. Now we have extra tools to help us in neutral, ie. buffed jab and F-tilt, as well as our Nair being buffed too

I'll tag some MK experts in case I've got anything wrong or if they have anything to add: @ Katakiri @ ZTD | TECHnology @warionumbah2 @Bonk! @Fye

 

[shrooby]

Hey guys, we're discussing Fox in the Dedede forum
http://smashboards.com/threads/read...on-currently-discussing-fox-6-24-6-28.395045/
Input from your side would be most appreciated.~

 

[DavemanCozy]

vs

MK boards discussed this a while ago (April) and decided that this matchup is 60:40 in MK's favour. This summary is the impression I got from it.

On-stage, it's pretty even if MK plays safely and fishes for grabs, which he should. If Fox gets momentum (from a grab for example) he doesn't get much out of it because of MK's multiple jumps, Dair camping, and landing mixup options in Tornado and DCape. It's difficult for him to camp with lasers because they're laggy and MK is fast on the ground allowing him to get in quickly and punish. MK has superior juggling and if he manages to grab or dash attack Fox, the damage MK can do with the resulting combo is nasty. DA to Up-B is easy to land on Fox and is a b&b kill setup, for example. This all said, if the MK isn't careful and doesn't respect Fox's neutral, Fox has all the tools he needs to punish that hard.

Off-stage is a completely different story. Fox's recoveries are pretty telegraphed and MK can cover pretty much every option just by hopping with his back to the ledge, catching Fox in whatever he does with the disjointed back hitbox of Nair, fastfalling backwards off stage if Fox tries to recover low or level with the stage. Our multiple jumps and amazing recovery mean we can easily go low for a kill if Fox attempts to recover low with Up-B (he should try to never do so, but easier said than done). Even on the ledge, Fox is in a bad position as our quick D-tilt covers half his ledge options.

Basically if the MK respects Fox and gets in a few solid punishes, gaining momentum, Fox is in trouble, especially if MK gets him off-stage. Once Fox gets momentum back he doesn't give it up easily though. It's not a terrible matchup for Fox but it's not exactly great if the MK is good.

EDIT: Forgot to mention some stuff:

• Compared to other characters MK has an easier time escaping Fox's jab lock
• MK has superior juggling and combo ability than Fox in general, Fox's fast-faller status doesn't help him in this regard; it makes combos which are iffy on other characters much more reliable on Fox, eg. DA > Tornado at early percents
• Also, this matchup has only gotten better for us in the latest patch. Now we have extra tools to help us in neutral, ie. buffed jab and F-tilt, as well as our Nair being buffed too

Thanks a ton for the write up. I can definitely see this going in MKs favour a bit, being offstage seems scary against him. But again, I have limited experience and have never had my recovery exploited by a great MK.

The yung MK in London here goes by Ras, he also uses ff Nair as one of his landing mixups. I have noticed this move prevents Fox from juggling MK properly in the air. With the patch, it's even harder to punish now too.

Yoo, I just realized Technology is going to EXP2015 up here in Kitchener. I'm gonna make sure to get some MU experience this weekend. Even though I'm a fraudulent 2nd seed in that tournament

50-50 both with customs and non-customs.

I'll be going in Puff's perspective. In the start of the match, Fox will probably start shooting lasers. We can easily avoid that by croaching. Fox's approach are normally DA, Nair, or Dash Grab. I'm P sure that DA and Nair aren't safe on shield and Nair beats out his dash grab. Fox can rush us down well though. Our range is also fairly similar but his moves are faster. He also kills earlier than us with his Usmash and Uair killing us at about 70%. Our Bair kills Fox at about 90%. I find Usmash a good tool for this match-up and it'll kill at 90%. Rollout is also a good kill mixup which can kill at around 95% If he whiffs a Usmash or misspaces a DA on shield, we get a Rest. Edgeguarding is a doable thing for Fox but it's harder for him than for us. Offstage Fox is basically a free kill, any aerial can gimp Firefox. Our Nair beats out Phantasm. With customs, Jigglypuff's only one that's better than the default is Hyper Voice which is still p situational. It's good for pushing opponents away from the ledge when it's ledge cancelled or edgeguarding when it's ledge cancelled. Twisting Fox is another kill option. Expect Jigglypuff to use 1131 with customs.

Fox is better off staying onstage in this game when edgeguarding, particularly against Jiggs. Keeping this in mind, going offstage with Jiggs to escape pressure from Fox is a good idea, though Fox can also just shoot lasers to force you to come back, and you need to come back eventually.

Yeah, DA and N-air aren't safe on shield at all with Fox. They're typical Fox approaches, but imo it's not the way to go against Jiggs, better to stop Fox's dash at mid-distance from her to start forcing a reaction out of her. Fox's sh Illusion, dash attack, up-tilt, and angled-down f-tilt all hit a crouching Jiggs. If Fox predicts she'll be putting up her shield Fox can just grab her in that case. The thing is a whiffed grabs against Jiggs isso, so bad for Fox, since she can just rest. Even if it doesn't KO, that flower racks up damage fast for any aerial to put Fox in a very uncomfortable position offstage. Jiggs can also crouch under Fox's jab 1 and other f-tilt angles, cross up b-airs also don't work on a crouching Jiggs.

Jiggs can do a pretty good job of walling Fox herself with her aerials, though since they last so long it also means that whiffing one gives Fox a punish window. Getting a hit confirm out of one is good though, since Fox is a fast-faller they force a tech at mid %s. The Jiggs I've played use F-smash and sh N-air and F-air to tech chase.

I'm not sure if Jiggs N-air actually beats Fire Fox, I think it trades? I know N-air beats Illusion though, and I also know that Jiggs F-air beats Fire Fox.

On the Jiggly/Fox matchup, Jiggly main speaking here.

I'd put 60:40 in Jigg's favor, mainly because Fox offstage absurdly free. Fox can't reliably combo us with utilt or anything and out of throw options are difficult without reading our DI. We may be light and die quicker to U-Smash/U-Air, but Fox still has a rough time if we play very patiently. Fox also can't laser camp us because we can just duck under it & that's easy conditioning for whatever running approach Fox has (usually grab/usmash). Also, we aren't reliably stuck in Fox's jab setups because we are so light.

As for stages you want to take Jigglypuff, anything with a low ceiling like Halberd for example. Stages to ban, lylat and probably dreamland. In terms of matchup advice, play patient yourself and try to get us directly above you. Punish our landings.

that's easy conditioning for whatever running approach Fox has (usually grab/usmash)

lmfao, wat. Up-smash as a running approach? In what universe is that a good approach? What Foxes are you playing?

Even in the situation we are forced to approach a crouching Jiggs, Fox isn't restricted to just dash attack / U-smash. He can interrupt his movement and do other things, or he can even just tomahawk jump to cross her up.

Dreamland is Fox's best stage he got from the DLC. Same blastzones and size as N64 including the low ceiling, not the massive Melee thing. I would rather ban Delfino and would really love Jiggs to take me to Dreamland in this game.

Fox has no incentive to get close to Jiggs himself. If you really want to discuss the MU played at optimal level, Fox can just play lame and win. It's Sonic, except even worse for her because Fox has a projectile. By play lame, I mean he just needs to get the % advantage on Jiggs and just run away from her. Just one laser on her is enough to get the advantage. Even if she wants to crouch under them all day, what is she getting out of it? It's not like she can crawl her way to him while crouching the way Luigi can.

I'll give you that we get destroyed offstage (unless Fox is gawdlike at mixing up his recovery) and that Jiggs doesn't get "Foxed on" by his jab stuff like a lot of the cast does, but that doesn't mean the mu is in her advantage just because Fox has to play differently.

 

[Katakiri]

A case could definitely be made for 55:45 's favor or even 50:50. Like I said in the MK board's Fox MU thread, Fox is a very solid character that lose two specific parts of this MU: Off-stage and regaining stage control from MK. But he goes even in just about any other part of it. Aside form that, the hardest part of the MU for Fox is early percent where we have true combos into Tornado against Fox and late percents as Fox isn't going to get many raw Up-Smashes or anything due to how good MK's defensive game is with 6 jumps and a teleport.

I personally think 55:45 suits the MU better than 60:40 but if the Fox spends too much of the match recovering against MK, it can seem like a worse MU than it really is.

 

[Envioux]

lmfao, wat. Up-smash as a running approach? In what universe is that a good approach? What Foxes are you playing?

i worded that very poorly, my mistake. lots of the foxes i've played against get very antsy and fish hard for the up smash kill. i meant as a kill approach, even then, you're correct, it isn't a very smart option when jiggly can punish with rest.

Even in the situation we are forced to approach a crouching Jiggs, Fox isn't restricted to just dash attack / U-smash. He can interrupt his movement and do other things, or he can even just tomahawk jump to cross her up.

Dreamland is Fox's best stage he got from the DLC. Same blastzones and size as N64 including the low ceiling, not the massive Melee thing. I would rather ban Delfino and would really love Jiggs to take me to Dreamland in this game.

the reason I think Dreamland is iffy for Fox is because we can already easily gimp you guys, if we manage to get you below the stage it's a done deal on Dreamland. at least Delfino is a different story somewhat due to transitions & an easier time for you to get kills. i guess if your objective is to camp us out, then Delfino is the ban here.

Fox has no incentive to get close to Jiggs himself. If you really want to discuss the MU played at optimal level, Fox can just play lame and win. It's Sonic, except even worse for her because Fox has a projectile. By play lame, I mean he just needs to get the % advantage on Jiggs and just run away from her. Just one laser on her is enough to get the advantage. Even if she wants to crouch under them all day, what is she getting out of it? It's not like she can crawl her way to him while crouching the way Luigi can.

you're under the assumption that puff is just gonna crouch all game, but why would she? she belongs in the air and that's what the problem is for Fox. sure, you can argue Fox can play lame & try to circle camp us out but Jigglypuff can do the same exact thing to Fox with percent lead and even with lasers there isn't anything he can do about it.

I'll give you that we get destroyed offstage (unless Fox is gawdlike at mixing up his recovery) and that Jiggs doesn't get "Foxed on" by his jab stuff like a lot of the cast does, but that doesn't mean the mu is in her advantage just because Fox has to play differently.

responses in bold, after some reconsidering i'd say 55:45 in Jigglypuff's favor still, i see why the matchup is a little more even than previously thought but i still give her the advantage because of how easy it is to get a gimp on Fox. regardless though, the neutral is a pain for both characters.

 

[Yoh]

I´ll try to give my input, since I have a lot of exp in themu.

- he can juggle Ike pretty badly and his uair does a lot of damage
- he can interrupt many approach options since he is pretty fast
- can easily punish ´s landing with dash attack or so
- kinda hard for to get in close cause of fox speed and he can run away with side b
- jab cancel combos into smashes, which can lead to an early kill

The thing is Ike doesn´t need to hit fox that much to get the kill and since fox falls so fast Ike´s combogame works pretty well on him.good spacing outranges fox but it´s difficult against such fast characters. ike also got some good kill setups on fox like uthrow -> fair/uair, or nair -> fair/bair, even dtilt -> fair on the edge, which kill around 100% or so.
Ike will live longer and kill fox damn early cause of rage.

So I think its kinda like 55:45 for .

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I´ll try to give my input, since I have a lot of exp in themu.

- he can juggle Ike pretty badly and his uair does a lot of damage
- he can interrupt many approach options since he is pretty fast
- can easily punish ´s landing with dash attack or so
- kinda hard for to get in close cause of fox speed and he can run away with side b
- jab cancel combos into smashes, which can lead to an early kill

The thing is Ike doesn´t need to hit fox that much to get the kill and since fox falls so fast Ike´s combogame works pretty well on him.good spacing outranges fox but it´s difficult against such fast characters. ike also got some good kill setups on fox like uthrow -> fair/uair, or nair -> fair/bair, even dtilt -> fair on the edge, which kill around 100% or so.
Ike will live longer and kill fox damn early cause of rage.

So I think its kinda like 55:45 for .

Just going to add to this: Ike's buff dash attack can murderdeathkill Fox pretty quickly, particularly if he has any rage at all. Uthrow -> Fair near the edge is also going to kill Fox very quickly. I think we had some sub 100% kills like that when we were first testing what the patch did to Ike (and Fox was one of the test dummies), and that was without testing edgeguarding follow ups afterwards (and Fox's options for recovery aren't exactly threatening to Ike. Its a free edgeguard attempt every time).

Basically, stay away from the edge if your Fox. The risk reward is probably not worth it for Fox at all. If Ike has the edge area, let him have it. You're better off standing in the middle of the stage going pew pew pew.

 

[DavemanCozy]

you're under the assumption that puff is just gonna crouch all game, but why would she? she belongs in the air and that's what the problem is for Fox. sure, you can argue Fox can play lame & try to circle camp us out but Jigglypuff can do the same exact thing to Fox with percent lead and even with lasers there isn't anything he can do about it.

I touched on the crouching part because you said in your previous post:

we can just duck under [lasers] & that's easy conditioning for whatever running approach Fox hashas

And my argument was on why should Fox approach lest he is losing the lead?

You said Jiggs belongs in the air. I agree there. But she's gonna have to come down and restore her jumps eventually. Fox has the fastest vertical air speed and 4th fastest run speed, he has no problem chasing after a Puff in the air either. She has superior air speed obviously, but Fox has ground speed to match that and chase her along the ground while she's flying about. Fox can catch her in the air with U-air as well, that's a disjointed aerial. Jiggs may be able to go in the air to alleviate pressure, but she has to come back down eventually to restore her jumps. I honestly don't see how Fox gets circle camped by Puff: she takes to the skies, Fox can shoot lasers to rack damage or just chase her along the ground and cover her landing.

responses in bold, after some reconsidering i'd say 55:45 in Jigglypuff's favor still, i see why the matchup is a little more even than previously thought but i still give her the advantage because of how easy it is to get a gimp on Fox. regardless though, the neutral is a pain for both characters.

I agree that Fox gets easily gimped by her, but she needs to get him offstage first.

I don't see this as a Puff advantage either, at least not with customs off. Macchiato's 50:50 I could believe.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Thanks a ton for the write up. I can definitely see this going in MKs favour a bit, being offstage seems scary against him. But again, I have limited experience and have never had my recovery exploited by a great MK.

The yung MK in London here goes by Ras, he also uses ff Nair as one of his landing mixups. I have noticed this move prevents Fox from juggling MK properly in the air. With the patch, it's even harder to punish now too.

Yoo, I just realized Technology is going to EXP2015 up here in Kitchener. I'm gonna make sure to get some MU experience this weekend. Even though I'm a fraudulent 2nd seed in that tournament



Fox is better off staying onstage in this game when edgeguarding, particularly against Jiggs. Keeping this in mind, going offstage with Jiggs to escape pressure from Fox is a good idea, though Fox can also just shoot lasers to force you to come back, and you need to come back eventually.

Yeah, DA and N-air aren't safe on shield at all with Fox. They're typical Fox approaches, but imo it's not the way to go against Jiggs, better to stop Fox's dash at mid-distance from her to start forcing a reaction out of her. Fox's sh Illusion, dash attack, up-tilt, and angled-down f-tilt all hit a crouching Jiggs. If Fox predicts she'll be putting up her shield Fox can just grab her in that case. The thing is a whiffed grabs against Jiggs isso, so bad for Fox, since she can just rest. Even if it doesn't KO, that flower racks up damage fast for any aerial to put Fox in a very uncomfortable position offstage. Jiggs can also crouch under Fox's jab 1 and other f-tilt angles, cross up b-airs also don't work on a crouching Jiggs.

Jiggs can do a pretty good job of walling Fox herself with her aerials, though since they last so long it also means that whiffing one gives Fox a punish window. Getting a hit confirm out of one is good though, since Fox is a fast-faller they force a tech at mid %s. The Jiggs I've played use F-smash and sh N-air and F-air to tech chase.

I'm not sure if Jiggs N-air actually beats Fire Fox, I think it trades? I know N-air beats Illusion though, and I also know that Jiggs F-air beats Fire Fox.





lmfao, wat. Up-smash as a running approach? In what universe is that a good approach? What Foxes are you playing?

Even in the situation we are forced to approach a crouching Jiggs, Fox isn't restricted to just dash attack / U-smash. He can interrupt his movement and do other things, or he can even just tomahawk jump to cross her up.

Dreamland is Fox's best stage he got from the DLC. Same blastzones and size as N64 including the low ceiling, not the massive Melee thing. I would rather ban Delfino and would really love Jiggs to take me to Dreamland in this game.

Fox has no incentive to get close to Jiggs himself. If you really want to discuss the MU played at optimal level, Fox can just play lame and win. It's Sonic, except even worse for her because Fox has a projectile. By play lame, I mean he just needs to get the % advantage on Jiggs and just run away from her. Just one laser on her is enough to get the advantage. Even if she wants to crouch under them all day, what is she getting out of it? It's not like she can crawl her way to him while crouching the way Luigi can.

I'll give you that we get destroyed offstage (unless Fox is gawdlike at mixing up his recovery) and that Jiggs doesn't get "Foxed on" by his jab stuff like a lot of the cast does, but that doesn't mean the mu is in her advantage just because Fox has to play differently.

Yeah bro, feel free to play me in a **** ton of friendlies.I have played Ksev and other Foxes enough to know what to do. I enjoy playing this MU.

Btw co-signing to what Katakiri/Jamurai said. 55-45 in our favor is about right to me. The neutral is pretty frustrating but we have an easier time getting the kill (Fox struggles against shield at kill percents and gets nothing substantial off a grab other than MAYBE positional advantage which is not really utilized there because our recovery and landing options are among the best in the game) and our advantage states typically net us more (off stage wars are in our favor easily). If the Fox plays very safe and maximizes grab combos at low-mid percents (we're fast fallers too so you get lots of free damage early on) and can keep up the pressure, then you can definitely win as Fox. I just think we have more advantageous states that shift it in our favor simply. On stage though its about even. The Foxes who struggle with this MU are the ones who do dumb things off stage. We love that as Meta Knight.

EDIT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s2dk1QPWbw

Recent-ish set of me vs Ksev. He won because he's just better than me but this should give Fox players an idea of how this MU goes and what to look out for.

 

[SpaceDong]

My thoughts on the MU: It's not 60:40 in favour. Not at all.

I've played my fair share of Meta Knights, and although I doubt any of them are super high level (most of this comes from playing Joker) and although Meta Knight CAN give Fox trouble, I wouldn't say it's even either.

It's something like 55:45 favour. I see this because... Ight go ahead, dair camp and whatnot all you want. That does not change the fact that Fox has one of the best in and out games and doesn't need to approach unless he has the lead. A lot of Fox's options are low risk, high reward options and utilt and jab messes you guys up, especially because the usmash is much easier to land on after a few jabs. The only thing I can really see hurting us in the MU is fast fall. Uair uair uair juggles hurt us, yeah. So does dash attack Up B. That being said, our recovery ISN'T as free as you may think it is.

Yes, although it's linear and you have many jumps, we do have our options to mix it up. We can shine stall, and bait you into thinking we're going for a side B recovery when we instead use Up B to recover vertically (this actually trips a lot of people up, where they expect a free punish on the side B and instead just get hit by the Fire Fox)

Meta Knight also isn't that heavy of a character. Granted, neither is Fox, however Meta Knight's kill options require a bit more commitment than Fox's do. Nair to Usmash, Dair to usmash, dthrow to bair (with poor DI) and the ledge trump trap that not enough Fox's utilize (like c'mon it's a free dsmash or fsmash)

Important thing to note: stay away from Delfino in this MU lol, had this one MK named Saber try to shark under me the entire game. Really tested my patience, and it tested his too clearly, considering he went for raw Up B and lost the game because of it
Thoughts on the MU later.

 

[SpaceDong]

AYO BLITZ

I actually have a lot of experience in this matchup (ayo blitz)

Now, as much as we would absolutely loooove to run in and get out ridiculous Uptilt BS in early, a good and seasoned Ike literally won't let that happen.

GRAND FINALS, JUNE 26 2015 SPACEDONG VS EMG|BLITZ

(Spoiler alert I won this set)

Now, I'm not sure if every Ike does this, but I noticed this particular one really wanted to bait me into approaching so that way he can get his grab and punish. And this is where the matchup got hard. I LOVE to approach with overwhelming options, however... it didn't work as well as I thought. And so, midset a golden rule was saved into my head: Respect His Range

This is extremely crucial to a large part of the matchup. Fox needs to get up close and personal in order to maximize his damage and getting in in the first place is actually somewhat challenging against a formidable The best option to get out of neutral is to fire a couple lasers (And I mean like 1 or 2 and get out of there) and try to bait him into coming. Ike really doesn't have many options to approach himself, his best bet is a fair and nair, and although it IS safe if he is good at spacing, just keep trying to get him to approach until he messes up. He WILL mess up. That's your chance to get in.

This matchup really is all about waiting for your opening and capitalizing on it. Now doesn't really have many edgegaurd options, however another thing you need to watch out for is when you up B. You NEVER wanna Up B straight up towards the ledge from right under it, that's Ike's free stage spike. Your tech skill must be ON POINT if you're really gonna try to go for this.

Most Ike's like to get you offstage and try to land an eruption as you make your recovery. The best way to avoid this is to shine stall until you're about diagonally away from the ledge, and pray that the eruption is over. However, the better option would probably just try and side B and clip Ike's head. Try not to get near the eruption hitbox, though. That's actually how I got out of that situation most of the time in our set.

Edgeguarding him? Really not many options, most of the time I tried dropping a nair and tried gimping or stage spiking him. It worked a couple times, actually.

As for our kill option, just jab jab walk him to the ledge and downsmash. EZ PZ

Watch out for Ike's own jab, because it actually works now. Getting back on the ground against a good Ike is tough, too. But his jab is also punishable, so shield it if you see it coming.

Running away and firing lasers works wonders in this MU as well.

OVERALL VERDICT: 60 40 STAY AWAY FROM THE AIR

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

My thoughts on the MU: It's not 60:40 in favour. Not at all.

I've played my fair share of Meta Knights, and although I doubt any of them are super high level (most of this comes from playing Joker) and although Meta Knight CAN give Fox trouble, I wouldn't say it's even either.

It's something like 55:45 favour. I see this because... Ight go ahead, dair camp and whatnot all you want. That does not change the fact that Fox has one of the best in and out games and doesn't need to approach unless he has the lead. A lot of Fox's options are low risk, high reward options and utilt and jab messes you guys up, especially because the usmash is much easier to land on after a few jabs. The only thing I can really see hurting us in the MU is fast fall. Uair uair uair juggles hurt us, yeah. So does dash attack Up B. That being said, our recovery ISN'T as free as you may think it is.

Yes, although it's linear and you have many jumps, we do have our options to mix it up. We can shine stall, and bait you into thinking we're going for a side B recovery when we instead use Up B to recover vertically (this actually trips a lot of people up, where they expect a free punish on the side B and instead just get hit by the Fire Fox)

Meta Knight also isn't that heavy of a character. Granted, neither is Fox, however Meta Knight's kill options require a bit more commitment than Fox's do. Nair to Usmash, Dair to usmash, dthrow to bair (with poor DI) and the ledge trump trap that not enough Fox's utilize (like c'mon it's a free dsmash or fsmash)

Important thing to note: stay away from Delfino in this MU lol, had this one MK named Saber try to shark under me the entire game. Really tested my patience, and it tested his too clearly, considering he went for raw Up B and lost the game because of it
Thoughts on the MU later.

Dair camping is not a primary strategy. We're far better on the ground than we are in the air.

Many of your primary damage racking options are indeed low risk and net a substantial reward. We have many tools just like that. Except they last longer. We're fast faller's so Up Tilt strings are effective at lower percents for sure. But we have grab combos that lead into kills. At low percents, grab or dash attack leads into a guaranteed Mach Tornado. Boom. 28% right off the bat. We have footstool combos out of down throw up air that can work as well and give us more damage. Up Air strings were mentioned but you didn't mention that those lead into very early kills if we sweetspot the Shuttle Loop. Regardless we still get Down Throw / Foward Throw Shuttle Loop off as well.

Our combos and strings last considerably longer than yours and come from guaranteed follow ups. If you get overzealous in the air at 80% + and we read you, Up Air is a hit confirm for a Shuttle Loop kill on many characters: Fox included.

And you say that your kills are less of a commitment.

Nair > Up Smash while good is situational. If you ever miss Dair or touch or shield with anything that's remotely a commitment, you are eat the very least, eating a Shuttle Loop for it. Up-Smash by itself is a huge commitment. Jab combos are definitely legit but we're not going to carelessly engage you at close range, especially at kill percent. Easier said than done, but its not like you have all these easy setups on us either. And if you can't land any of those, how do you kill us? A lucky Bair or Up Air? You get nothing substantial off a grab at high percents anyway. Fox doesn't gain much if we make intelligent use of shield.

And as I stated, I don't think Fox is totally free off stage. I think the 60-40 comes from people underestimating his recovery options for sure. But all we have to do is be patient. If we guess right, reverse Nair beats EVERYTHING you have off stage regardless. All we have to do is guess correctly. I do agree that Fox has more options for safe recovery than people give him credit for.


I feel you don't fully understand Meta Knight's tools because we're not very common. We definitely do not lose to Fox. I can possibly see even but that's at the worse. You have better close range tools, a very good footsie game and a projectile that essentially makes us approach (what doesn't make us approach though) and nets you free damage on occasion. Our mid range game and punish game is better though. And of course, we win off stage. Fox is difficult for sure. I wrestle between 55-45, 50-50 for this.

@ Katakiri , @ItoI6, you guys know the MU, anything else you wanna add?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

AYO BLITZ

I actually have a lot of experience in this matchup (ayo blitz)

Now, as much as we would absolutely loooove to run in and get out ridiculous Uptilt BS in early, a good and seasoned Ike literally won't let that happen.

GRAND FINALS, JUNE 26 2015 SPACEDONG VS EMG|BLITZ

(Spoiler alert I won this set)

Now, I'm not sure if every Ike does this, but I noticed this particular one really wanted to bait me into approaching so that way he can get his grab and punish. And this is where the matchup got hard. I LOVE to approach with overwhelming options, however... it didn't work as well as I thought. And so, midset a golden rule was saved into my head: Respect His Range

This is extremely crucial to a large part of the matchup. Fox needs to get up close and personal in order to maximize his damage and getting in in the first place is actually somewhat challenging against a formidable The best option to get out of neutral is to fire a couple lasers (And I mean like 1 or 2 and get out of there) and try to bait him into coming. Ike really doesn't have many options to approach himself, his best bet is a fair and nair, and although it IS safe if he is good at spacing, just keep trying to get him to approach until he messes up. He WILL mess up. That's your chance to get in.

This matchup really is all about waiting for your opening and capitalizing on it. Now doesn't really have many edgegaurd options, however another thing you need to watch out for is when you up B. You NEVER wanna Up B straight up towards the ledge from right under it, that's Ike's free stage spike. Your tech skill must be ON POINT if you're really gonna try to go for this.

Most Ike's like to get you offstage and try to land an eruption as you make your recovery. The best way to avoid this is to shine stall until you're about diagonally away from the ledge, and pray that the eruption is over. However, the better option would probably just try and side B and clip Ike's head. Try not to get near the eruption hitbox, though. That's actually how I got out of that situation most of the time in our set.

Edgeguarding him? Really not many options, most of the time I tried dropping a nair and tried gimping or stage spiking him. It worked a couple times, actually.

As for our kill option, just jab jab walk him to the ledge and downsmash. EZ PZ

Watch out for Ike's own jab, because it actually works now. Getting back on the ground against a good Ike is tough, too. But his jab is also punishable, so shield it if you see it coming.

Running away and firing lasers works wonders in this MU as well.

OVERALL VERDICT: 60 40 STAY AWAY FROM THE AIR

There's bit off here.

SSB4 isn't Brawl Ike. Fair and Nair are options for approaching yes. So is just walking up and jabbing. Or Bair. Or walking up to set up a PP Ftilt. Or using our new buffed Dash Attack.

Ike has a lot of edgeguarding options: Eruption, downtilted Ftilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, walk off Fair/Bair/Dair, walk off aether, Counter. All usable in different situations.

Eruption hits above Ike a fair bit, though certainly try to mix up your recovery with Down B. Its pretty much the only way Fox isn't going to be insta-easy edgeguarding bait. But like I said before, its not like Ike is really taking a risk by edgeguarding. Worst situation is that he eats an Illusion, which doesn't matter that much really.

Shielding jab "if you see it coming" is a rather tall order. Can't do it on reaction (Frame 4 after all), which means you have to anticipate. Which means mixing up grabs into our jab situations works. There is also the fact that even if we do end up jabbing your shield, you have to guess if we're going to flat out stop, do the full combo, pause slightly then go into Jab 2, try to cancel Jab into grab or Dtilt, etc.

 

[SpaceDong]

Dair camping is not a primary strategy. We're far better on the ground than we are in the air.

Many of your primary damage racking options are indeed low risk and net a substantial reward. We have many tools just like that. Except they last longer. We're fast faller's so Up Tilt strings are effective at lower percents for sure. But we have grab combos that lead into kills. At low percents, grab or dash attack leads into a guaranteed Mach Tornado. Boom. 28% right off the bat. We have footstool combos out of down throw up air that can work as well and give us more damage. Up Air strings were mentioned but you didn't mention that those lead into very early kills if we sweetspot the Shuttle Loop. Regardless we still get Down Throw / Foward Throw Shuttle Loop off as well.

Our combos and strings last considerably longer than yours and come from guaranteed follow ups. If you get overzealous in the air at 80% + and we read you, Up Air is a hit confirm for a Shuttle Loop kill on many characters: Fox included.

And you say that your kills are less of a commitment.

Nair > Up Smash while good is situational. If you ever miss Dair or touch or shield with anything that's remotely a commitment, you are eat the very least, eating a Shuttle Loop for it. Up-Smash by itself is a huge commitment. Jab combos are definitely legit but we're not going to carelessly engage you at close range, especially at kill percent. Easier said than done, but its not like you have all these easy setups on us either. And if you can't land any of those, how do you kill us? A lucky Bair or Up Air? You get nothing substantial off a grab at high percents anyway. Fox doesn't gain much if we make intelligent use of shield.

And as I stated, I don't think Fox is totally free off stage. I think the 60-40 comes from people underestimating his recovery options for sure. But all we have to do is be patient. If we guess right, reverse Nair beats EVERYTHING you have off stage regardless. All we have to do is guess correctly. I do agree that Fox has more options for safe recovery than people give him credit for.


I feel you don't fully understand Meta Knight's tools because we're not very common. We definitely do not lose to Fox. I can possibly see even but that's at the worse. You have better close range tools, a very good footsie game and a projectile that essentially makes us approach (what doesn't make us approach though) and nets you free damage on occasion. Our mid range game and punish game is better though. And of course, we win off stage. Fox is difficult for sure. I wrestle between 55-45, 50-50 for this.

@ Katakiri , @ItoI6, you guys know the MU, anything else you wanna add?

Well, yeah, I was literally mostly going off of the 3 or 4 Metaknight's I've actually played in bracket. I know about your death combos and such, however I think you don't know about everything Fox can do in this game either. Fox can drag on his combos for a loooong time, it's not just 6 uptilts and it's over, a lot of Fox's right now still don't know how to actually take it as far as possible.

Also, our kill setup's are easier to get on Meta Knight because he's a fast faller and doesn't have any frame 3 kill option that we need to worry about. Side B to Uair is still a mix up that is guaranteed at certain ranges and you won't be able to punish it because MK doesn't have the running speed.

Also, Dthrow/Fthrow shuttle loop is... something I'm pretty sure we can DI out of. That's a risk you take yourself as well, because if you miss it, get ready to eat an upsmash or something heavy.

That being said, I'm sure you know more about Meta Knight than I do.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hey Fox mains...

Us at the Charizard boards are currently discussing the Fox vs Charizard match up.

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-fox.408787/

Come on over and tell us what you think. We'd love to hear your opinions.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Ike definitely loses, but it's a scary matchup for Fox regardless. Sure, we're faster in every single aspect, so theoretically we should never be losing this mu: no one is perfect though, and a few hits from Ike is all it takes to put Fox in a very uncomfortable % that he'll pretty much die to any stray tilt, aerial, or throw/jab setup. The more Ike gets buffed, the more perfect (or carefully) Fox needs to play the MU.

And lol, who hasn't beaten Blitz before? Even Yung Mickel trashed him in the PR ladder challenge (I love that guy). And I always look forward to his rants after tournament.

I think the higher play level you go, the worse the MU is for Ike though. A really lame and frame perfect player could just jab lock him and there's seriously nothing Ike can do, just get carried to the ledge and get D-smashed or eventually Up-smashed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Actually, Fox's aerial speed is slower than Ike's, so Fox ain't faster in every aspect.

Also I kinda doubt that in frame perfect play that would be the case. Ike's Nair is only -2 or -1 on block when spaced correctly. Would be enough time to shield the jab because Ike's nair when spaced that perfectly should be farther away than Fox's jab, meaning he would have to use frames moving forwards. Then you get into empty run ups on the ground vs empty jumps and all of that fun stuff in the debate.

Unless you're talking everybody perfect shields everything ever, at which point a lot of characters suddenly do crappy.

 

[M@v]

A case could definitely be made for 55:45 's favor or even 50:50. Like I said in the MK board's Fox MU thread, Fox is a very solid character that lose two specific parts of this MU: Off-stage and regaining stage control from MK. But he goes even in just about any other part of it. Aside form that, the hardest part of the MU for Fox is early percent where we have true combos into Tornado against Fox and late percents as Fox isn't going to get many raw Up-Smashes or anything due to how good MK's defensive game is with 6 jumps and a teleport.

I personally think 55:45 suits the MU better than 60:40 but if the Fox spends too much of the match recovering against MK, it can seem like a worse MU than it really is.

I want a rematch against you now that I've had a lot more experience in this matchup ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ﾉ. That being said, I still haven't found it to be an easy one, even though I understand Mk a lot more now. With so many things linking into Upb, and one good read leading to an early kill from an mk fsmash/bair/upb, it can be tricky.

 

[WispBae]

Howdy furry pilots! The Doggy boards are discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click the picture of Mr. Fox to go straight to the boards!

 

[Sir Tundra]

Since I don't have much experience with and I'm just going to contribute my thoughts on the Fox vs Jiggs matchup. This will be put in fox's perspective. I'll also do a positive and negatives matchup

vs (50:50) Even

Positive:

• Fox can easily Chase jiggs from the ground due to his amazing ground speed and super fast fall speed
• Fox can easily Kill Jiggs due to her weight
• Moves come out alot faster then jiggs

Negatives:

• Fox can't Combo Jiggs due to her weight
• Jiggs can edgeguard fox hard
• Jiggs can duck under fox's lasers

Alright so alot of Fox's Combos don't generally work on jigglypuff such as dash attack to up tilt since she can easily jump out due to her weight, down throw to fair because of DI and her weight, and Jab canceling because not only can she escape that because of her weight but she can also rest out of it as well. You heard me right jigglypuff can rest out of fox's jab cancels. Fox's only way of comboing jigglypuff is a couple up tilts not off of a dash attack but off of a standalone up tilt punish. However Fox can easily kill jiggs with up smash and up air because of weight which can be a big problem for jigglypuff especially since fox can setup up tilt -> upair and do fast fall dair/weak nair -> up smash to jiggs despite her balloon weight.

Fox is way faster then jiggs having the 4th fastest running speed and the fastest fallingg speed meaning he can dance around jiggs with relative ease. Fox can also chase Jiggs from the ground because of this. Fox's normals also come out extremely quick meaning he has an easy time punishing jiggs if she whiffs.

Because of Jiggs Height and puffball like shape she can easily crouch under fox's lasers which forces fox to actually approach jigglypuff. Fox's approach options are Shff Nair and RaR bair. Rar Bair is fox's best approach since bair auto cancels even when shff'd. Fox can also frame trap jiggs with this and make her eat an up tilt if she tries to either shield grab or attack Oos.

As @ Macchiato stated Jigglypuff completely wrecks Fox Offstage. Nair stops fox illusion which forces fox to use fire fox as a last resort. And we all know how easy it is to gimp fox when he's using fire fox. Fox's edgeguarding also isn't the best due to his fast falling speed. His best edge guarding tool against jiggs is nair which isn't much considering jiggs has like five jumps.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Sorry I've been slacking lately. After the weekend of EXP, one of my closest friends passed away. Had to take some time off playing.

I am better now, and I'll begin updating this thread often again. Thanks to everyone for keeping discussion going.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Sorry I've been slacking lately. After the weekend of EXP, one of my closest friends passed away. Had to take some time off playing.

I am better now, and I'll begin updating this thread often again. Thanks to everyone for keeping discussion going.

I'm sorry for your loss

Losing your closet friend must have been such a terrible thing to go through.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Sorry I've been slacking lately. After the weekend of EXP, one of my closest friends passed away. Had to take some time off playing.

I am better now, and I'll begin updating this thread often again. Thanks to everyone for keeping discussion going.

That's very unfortunate and I hope you feel better.

May I ask, because ANOTHER patch has ccome out and some characters getting nice buffs, should some be re discussed?
Kirby got an Fthrow buff for combos,faster inhale,better jab....I know its been done, but some characters have gotten good buffs especially WFT, while you guys unfortunately lost your jab thing

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So uh

Can we get a tl;dr version of what Fox can and can't do to Ike after his jab changes? We aren't 100% sure. Is Jab -> Usmash still on thing on everyone or only some of the cast?

On the flip side: Ike's Uair is now Rosalina tier and he can combo into it at kill percents. And bait/punish air dodges with it.

 

[Foster J.]

So uh

Can we get a tl;dr version of what Fox can and can't do to Ike after his jab changes? We aren't 100% sure. Is Jab -> Usmash still on thing on everyone or only some of the cast?

On the flip side: Ike's Uair is now Rosalina tier and he can combo into it at kill percents. And bait/punish air dodges with it.

TL;DR 2nd jab when it knocks then upwards is a true combo kill setup on higher percentages. Sheik was around 130, Mario 140, but this is extremely character dependant so don't expect to get it off against Falcon easily as an example.

We can still Jab Jab turn around Utilt, though it's a question of who you're playing against and how it's spaced.

Jab Jab Grab isn't guaranteed, but you can mostly get it if they shield after being jabbed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't suppose we can figure out exactly the % for it on Ike/how easy it is to land? Obviously it plays a fairly large part in the MU.

 

[Foster J.]

Don't suppose we can figure out exactly the % for it on Ike/how easy it is to land? Obviously it plays a fairly large part in the MU.

You're kinda asking for a bit much right off the bat. I'd hate to say but we're not exactly the most productive part of SmashBoards :^) but we'll likely do a thread regarding when it's a true kill setup some time. But don't expect it within the week. Just know Ike has to be in high percentage likely in the 150's before it's a true combo

 

[Galaxian]

I know I'm not a Fox main and that there's specific topics, but what characters should I pick against Fox that'll help me face him well?

Pac-Man main, with Kirby/Mario/Ness/Lucas as secondaries. I know the Fox/Ness MU is kind of bad for Ness, but is the Lucas one any better? Should I just keep playing Pac-Man for that MU as I believe it's kind of even for Pac-Man?

 

[Foster J.]

I know I'm not a Fox main and that there's specific topics, but what characters should I pick against Fox that'll help me face him well?

Pac-Man main, with Kirby/Mario/Ness/Lucas as secondaries. I know the Fox/Ness MU is kind of bad for Ness, but is the Lucas one any better? Should I just keep playing Pac-Man for that MU as I believe it's kind of even for Pac-Man?

I wouldn't say Ness has a bad MU against Fox, after all a Bthrow at 70-80 near the ledge usually kills Fox, and shielding is good against Fox due to his lack of decent throw options together with Ness' Nair OoS has enough priority to stop both FireFox and Illusion if challenge in most cases.

Kirby is not a bad MU either, he's small and if you get Fox offstage you just Dair him, but Fox is easy combo fodder for Kirby

 

[Galaxian]

I wouldn't say Ness has a bad MU against Fox, after all a Bthrow at 70-80 near the ledge usually kills Fox, and shielding is good against Fox due to his lack of decent throw options together with Ness' Nair OoS has enough priority to stop both FireFox and Illusion if challenge in most cases.

Kirby is not a bad MU either, he's small and if you get Fox offstage you just Dair him, but Fox is easy combo fodder for Kirby

Really? I always felt like Ness/Fox was kind of bad for Ness. It just didn't feel good for him, but maybe I'll try and change that.

Yeah, Kirby is a bit of combo fodder for Fox. One well timed Usmash and I'm dead earlier than I should be. Uair's annoying, too.

Thanks, though.

 

[Waymas]

Hi fellow Fox Mains, the Wario boards are currently discussing the FOX MU, click here if you want to join the discussion ;3

 

[Nu~]

Yo, Fox mains! Pac-Man boards are starting to discuss the fox matchup as we speak!
http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-...ead-fox-airwings-vs-galaga-bugs.390418/page-9

Let's see what happens when the master of the airwing meets the lord of Galaga/Galaxian