DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
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Shoutouts to @moyshe for putting together the banner and Abysswolf for the sprites
Welcome to the Fox Matchup Discussion thread!
We'll be discussing Fox's matchups in this iteration of smash, with three characters every disussion. When contributing, please make sure to provide proper arguments and content (videos are amazing if you can provide them, but not a forced requirement) to make sure your opinion counts in the discussion. ie, Preferably say more than just "the mu is x:y in favor of fighter."
Matchups
Keep in mind the changes to Fox:
- Rapid jab is now much better ever since jab lock was removed.
- Ignore anything about jab lock; it essentially made some matchups free for Fox.
- Meta has changed a lot since these discussions.
I'm using Anther's current stage list when discussing stages.
Starters:
BF**, FD*, SV, Lylat, T&C
CPs:
Duck Hunt, Dreamland, Miiverse** Omegas*
Other useful info;
Jab-Upsmash.txt
Fox-JabjabUsmash.txt (taken from after jab lock was removed from Fox FB group). There is a specific % range where jab -> jab 2 -> Usmash will work to seal the KO.
Discussion 1
Summary
Toon Link used to be regarded the weaker of the Link's before 1.0.6 took Link's jab cancel lock away. Currently he is regarded the better Link, being more mobile, quicker, and having better traps. His Z-air keeps distance, his bombs can confirm into his powerful aerial F-air, and his U-tilt juggles cause trouble for Fox. A matchup of patience, waiting for Tink to use one of his laggy moves and punish it, but where Fox also needs to be wary of his traps and his combat moves.
Tink sits in Mid-tier at D. The matchup vs Fox is generally considered to be about even or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5) in the current meta.
In-Depth
Main thing Fox needs to look for is how Toon Link chooses his landings. If you can keep TL off the ground and without stage control you will control the pace of the match. His anti-juggle options are using bombs and D-airing down. His floaty falling speed lets him fall victim to Fox's extreme frame traps. Baiting his airdodge and punishing it is very good.
Toon Link can't really deal with pressure, so you need to get in mid-range and limit it. Punishing the startup of his projectiles with like dash attack or N-air would do. Toon Link will try keeping Fox away with zair, which has lag. If you see him jump, you can punish before zair comes out by running in. Be cautious of miss-spacing tilts near Toon Link, since he has the better range than us. His main juggling move against Fox are his UTilt chains. All projectiles beat Fox Illusion. Recovering should be done carefully against TL; Higher or straight to the ledge would be better.
Shielding against TL is really good since he has poor options to deal with shields and a laggy grab. Still; be wary of b-throw. Kills Fox at ~120.
Stages
Don't: Smashville, Lylat.
Do: Dreamland, Battlefield, Final Destination.
Other: Town & City, Duck Hunt.
Toon Link used to be regarded the weaker of the Link's before 1.0.6 took Link's jab cancel lock away. Currently he is regarded the better Link, being more mobile, quicker, and having better traps. His Z-air keeps distance, his bombs can confirm into his powerful aerial F-air, and his U-tilt juggles cause trouble for Fox. A matchup of patience, waiting for Tink to use one of his laggy moves and punish it, but where Fox also needs to be wary of his traps and his combat moves.
Tink sits in Mid-tier at D. The matchup vs Fox is generally considered to be about even or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5) in the current meta.
In-Depth
Main thing Fox needs to look for is how Toon Link chooses his landings. If you can keep TL off the ground and without stage control you will control the pace of the match. His anti-juggle options are using bombs and D-airing down. His floaty falling speed lets him fall victim to Fox's extreme frame traps. Baiting his airdodge and punishing it is very good.
Toon Link can't really deal with pressure, so you need to get in mid-range and limit it. Punishing the startup of his projectiles with like dash attack or N-air would do. Toon Link will try keeping Fox away with zair, which has lag. If you see him jump, you can punish before zair comes out by running in. Be cautious of miss-spacing tilts near Toon Link, since he has the better range than us. His main juggling move against Fox are his UTilt chains. All projectiles beat Fox Illusion. Recovering should be done carefully against TL; Higher or straight to the ledge would be better.
Shielding against TL is really good since he has poor options to deal with shields and a laggy grab. Still; be wary of b-throw. Kills Fox at ~120.
Stages
Don't: Smashville, Lylat.
Do: Dreamland, Battlefield, Final Destination.
Other: Town & City, Duck Hunt.
Summary
1.0.6 took Link's jab cancel lock away, and in 1.1.0 we got ours taken away. Link has a lot more trouble dealing with pressure than Toon Link does, so the matchup requires Fox to be constantly outside of Link's bubble ready to punish and limiting his movement options. He is the slower of the Links with more range and power.
Despite his buffs, Link is Low tier at G in the current meta. The matchup is considered +2 for Fox (6:4) in the current meta.
In-Depth
Link has a great fastfall speed which makes him more susceptible to juggles from Fox He has a recovery that Fox can intercept. As long as you're not throwing out anything laggy and keeping your distance, Fox should have no problem avoiding most of Link's moveset. His bombs don't combo into as much and are regarded to be worse. His gale boomerang has the pulling wind property, but it can be used against him to get close to him fast or reflect it to push him away. His B-air is one of his better aerials for playing footsies along with his grounded jab and pivot F-tilts. D-air gives him a long lasting hitbox to cover his landings, and has been improved greatly in this game.
Link's N-air is reliable at combobreaking, and his D-air should be respected when juggling him with U-airs. Bombs as well can protect his landings. Greater disjoints let Link cover getup options with all his tilts. His U-throw is particularly powerful, despite him having the same problem as Toon Link with his grab being laggy, it's what he'll go for when Fox is at ~120ish. Be mindful of Link's jab. It's not nearly as good as it was when he could cancel it better, but it's still there and it's now a mixup he has. His U-smash is fairly powerful and has hits that 'link' (pardon the pun) together into the finishing move. Good SDI still lets Fox drop out of U-smash.
Stages
WIP
1.0.6 took Link's jab cancel lock away, and in 1.1.0 we got ours taken away. Link has a lot more trouble dealing with pressure than Toon Link does, so the matchup requires Fox to be constantly outside of Link's bubble ready to punish and limiting his movement options. He is the slower of the Links with more range and power.
Despite his buffs, Link is Low tier at G in the current meta. The matchup is considered +2 for Fox (6:4) in the current meta.
In-Depth
Link has a great fastfall speed which makes him more susceptible to juggles from Fox He has a recovery that Fox can intercept. As long as you're not throwing out anything laggy and keeping your distance, Fox should have no problem avoiding most of Link's moveset. His bombs don't combo into as much and are regarded to be worse. His gale boomerang has the pulling wind property, but it can be used against him to get close to him fast or reflect it to push him away. His B-air is one of his better aerials for playing footsies along with his grounded jab and pivot F-tilts. D-air gives him a long lasting hitbox to cover his landings, and has been improved greatly in this game.
Link's N-air is reliable at combobreaking, and his D-air should be respected when juggling him with U-airs. Bombs as well can protect his landings. Greater disjoints let Link cover getup options with all his tilts. His U-throw is particularly powerful, despite him having the same problem as Toon Link with his grab being laggy, it's what he'll go for when Fox is at ~120ish. Be mindful of Link's jab. It's not nearly as good as it was when he could cancel it better, but it's still there and it's now a mixup he has. His U-smash is fairly powerful and has hits that 'link' (pardon the pun) together into the finishing move. Good SDI still lets Fox drop out of U-smash.
Stages
WIP
Summary
Playing against Little Mac can be described as a boxing match; go in, go out. Fox does better vs Mac by playing defensively, baiting him to use one of his moves and then punishing their end-lag.
Little Mac is at G in Low tier in the current meta. Despite this, he's probably the hardest Low tier MU for Fox to deal with because of his design. The matchup is generally considered around ±0 or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5).
In-Depth
Little Mac has great kill power and a good neutral good, but he can't follow up or juggle nearly as well as Fox can, plus there's a good possibility of gimping him.
Little Mac's saving grace is that he can kill significantly earlier than Fox can, and by significant I mean 0-death with D-tilt > D-tilt > KO Punch. He also has his jab that confirms into Rising Uppercut, his Down-smash to cover ledge and the most powerful U-smash in the game when sweet-spotted. He has a fairly fast dash attack as well that outspaces Fox's tilts. All of Little Mac's tilts are significantly fast as well. His F-tilt is a two hit move and the second is quite powerful, his d-tilt can combo Fox at low percents and confirm into Rising Uppercut for the KO. His smash attacks also have super-armor on start, making for a very unique neutral game that requires learning to play against. Slip Counter becomes a mindgame and should always be kept in mind; it is one of his few options of recovering onstage and can kill any follow ups and juggles.
Against Little Mac, Fox actually has an offstage gimp with N-air and Shine. His Jolt Haymaker is pretty strong though, and should be careful if intercepting. D-smash KO's him at ~80%, earlier than U-smash, because of the horizontal knockback it sends him offstage in. If Little Mac's Rising Uppercut doesn't sweetspot the ledge, so Fox can sit by the ledge, shield the hits, and D-smash him right after the last hit to send him to his doom.
Stages
Don't: Lylat, Final Destination.
Do: Pretty much any other stage than the above two.
Playing against Little Mac can be described as a boxing match; go in, go out. Fox does better vs Mac by playing defensively, baiting him to use one of his moves and then punishing their end-lag.
Little Mac is at G in Low tier in the current meta. Despite this, he's probably the hardest Low tier MU for Fox to deal with because of his design. The matchup is generally considered around ±0 or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5).
In-Depth
Little Mac has great kill power and a good neutral good, but he can't follow up or juggle nearly as well as Fox can, plus there's a good possibility of gimping him.
Little Mac's saving grace is that he can kill significantly earlier than Fox can, and by significant I mean 0-death with D-tilt > D-tilt > KO Punch. He also has his jab that confirms into Rising Uppercut, his Down-smash to cover ledge and the most powerful U-smash in the game when sweet-spotted. He has a fairly fast dash attack as well that outspaces Fox's tilts. All of Little Mac's tilts are significantly fast as well. His F-tilt is a two hit move and the second is quite powerful, his d-tilt can combo Fox at low percents and confirm into Rising Uppercut for the KO. His smash attacks also have super-armor on start, making for a very unique neutral game that requires learning to play against. Slip Counter becomes a mindgame and should always be kept in mind; it is one of his few options of recovering onstage and can kill any follow ups and juggles.
Against Little Mac, Fox actually has an offstage gimp with N-air and Shine. His Jolt Haymaker is pretty strong though, and should be careful if intercepting. D-smash KO's him at ~80%, earlier than U-smash, because of the horizontal knockback it sends him offstage in. If Little Mac's Rising Uppercut doesn't sweetspot the ledge, so Fox can sit by the ledge, shield the hits, and D-smash him right after the last hit to send him to his doom.
Stages
Don't: Lylat, Final Destination.
Do: Pretty much any other stage than the above two.
Discussion 2
Summary
Yoshi has the best air mobility in the game, great dash attack to intercept dash-startups and landings, great projectile for control in general, one of the best set of jabs, arguably the best command grab, and one of the best N-airs to get him out of pressure. He comes short with his rolls and shield being worse than average, his situational KO setups, and an average neutral game.
The matchup against Fox is heavily debated over this thread, but over time the general agreement seems to be that the matchup is around ±0 or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5). General agreement is that stage control and neutral is in Fox's favor, but offstage is in Yoshi's.
In Depth
The match up is fairly even onstage. Yoshi is slightly better at juggling Fox with his U-tilt and can live slightly longer, but Fox makes up for it with a better neutral game and mitigating Yoshi's landing options. Yoshi has a clear advantage when it comes to edge guarding mainly because of his air mobility and eggs. He struggles with characters that can swat him out of the air and don't let him land; Fox is very good at the latter using U-throw and chasing him onstage to mitigate his landings. Onstage, Yoshi's eggs can be dashed under and the endlag can be punished. Fox's rapid jabs are hard to escape for Yoshi (since the jab lock was removed), which make them good for getting space between Yoshi. Fox's U-tilt juggles won't start to work until about 10% is tacked on.
N-air is Yoshi's fastest aerial, while his jabs are his fastest ground moves; both are his best tools to relieve pressure, meaning that Fox needs to be careful when starting combos. Yoshi can also use the super-armor in his double jump to tank a hit and counter back. While both are fairly fast panic moves, they are both unsafe on shield. His egg lay is a very good command grab that let's him land against opponents expecting him to throw out a hitbox. It has 20 frames of startup, however, meaning that it is fairly punishable and reactable to. As Fox, you should be careful of trying to wait near the ledge against Yoshi. Being offstage, Yoshi can stage-spike with B-air or he can gimp with F-air. He can position Fox offstage by tossing eggs and continually forcing Fox into poor positions with them. The hitbox of his D-tilt can catch Fox trying to grab the ledge and set him up for a run-off F-air.
KO moves Yoshi has at his disposal are jab -> F-smash or Yoshi Bomb. This puts pressure on Fox's shield but can be escaped by dashing or rolling away. Offstage F-airs can be set up with Egg tosses. Yoshi's U-air can come from a F-air onstage spike (which can be teched) and d-throw (which can be jumped away from). U-smash is powerful on stages like Battlefield and Lylat, since it covers the platforms above as well. His Egg Lay can also trap Fox and set him up for a KO move, but keep in mind that as long as you are inside the egg, you will not suffer any knockback until you break out of it. You can switch between delaying and accelerating your timing to break out of the egg to throw off Yoshi's timing.
In depth summary and other notes;
- Always be aware of Egg Lay. Bait it out, careful near the ledge.
- Egg Throw is very good offstage but not great against Fox onstage. Perfect shielding egg-throw or just dashing under the trajectory makes it punishable. Recovering Yoshi's can have their Egg Throw reflected when they're trying to get back onstage.
Did I miss anything?
Stages
Do: FD, T&C, Battlefield, Dreamland
Don't: Smashville, Lylat
Other: Duck Hunt
Yoshi has the best air mobility in the game, great dash attack to intercept dash-startups and landings, great projectile for control in general, one of the best set of jabs, arguably the best command grab, and one of the best N-airs to get him out of pressure. He comes short with his rolls and shield being worse than average, his situational KO setups, and an average neutral game.
The matchup against Fox is heavily debated over this thread, but over time the general agreement seems to be that the matchup is around ±0 or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5). General agreement is that stage control and neutral is in Fox's favor, but offstage is in Yoshi's.
In Depth
The match up is fairly even onstage. Yoshi is slightly better at juggling Fox with his U-tilt and can live slightly longer, but Fox makes up for it with a better neutral game and mitigating Yoshi's landing options. Yoshi has a clear advantage when it comes to edge guarding mainly because of his air mobility and eggs. He struggles with characters that can swat him out of the air and don't let him land; Fox is very good at the latter using U-throw and chasing him onstage to mitigate his landings. Onstage, Yoshi's eggs can be dashed under and the endlag can be punished. Fox's rapid jabs are hard to escape for Yoshi (since the jab lock was removed), which make them good for getting space between Yoshi. Fox's U-tilt juggles won't start to work until about 10% is tacked on.
N-air is Yoshi's fastest aerial, while his jabs are his fastest ground moves; both are his best tools to relieve pressure, meaning that Fox needs to be careful when starting combos. Yoshi can also use the super-armor in his double jump to tank a hit and counter back. While both are fairly fast panic moves, they are both unsafe on shield. His egg lay is a very good command grab that let's him land against opponents expecting him to throw out a hitbox. It has 20 frames of startup, however, meaning that it is fairly punishable and reactable to. As Fox, you should be careful of trying to wait near the ledge against Yoshi. Being offstage, Yoshi can stage-spike with B-air or he can gimp with F-air. He can position Fox offstage by tossing eggs and continually forcing Fox into poor positions with them. The hitbox of his D-tilt can catch Fox trying to grab the ledge and set him up for a run-off F-air.
KO moves Yoshi has at his disposal are jab -> F-smash or Yoshi Bomb. This puts pressure on Fox's shield but can be escaped by dashing or rolling away. Offstage F-airs can be set up with Egg tosses. Yoshi's U-air can come from a F-air onstage spike (which can be teched) and d-throw (which can be jumped away from). U-smash is powerful on stages like Battlefield and Lylat, since it covers the platforms above as well. His Egg Lay can also trap Fox and set him up for a KO move, but keep in mind that as long as you are inside the egg, you will not suffer any knockback until you break out of it. You can switch between delaying and accelerating your timing to break out of the egg to throw off Yoshi's timing.
In depth summary and other notes;
- Always be aware of Egg Lay. Bait it out, careful near the ledge.
- Egg Throw is very good offstage but not great against Fox onstage. Perfect shielding egg-throw or just dashing under the trajectory makes it punishable. Recovering Yoshi's can have their Egg Throw reflected when they're trying to get back onstage.
Did I miss anything?
Stages
Do: FD, T&C, Battlefield, Dreamland
Don't: Smashville, Lylat
Other: Duck Hunt
Yet to update:
(this MU has changed a lot, most of the posts were pre-Mewtwo patch)
Discussion 3
(No more D-throw tornado, still in Luigi's favour)
(Agreed to be about even)
Discussion 4 - Discussion Start
(Agreed to be in Ness's favour since the jab lock was removed)
(Agreed to be in Fox's favour / about even)
(See re-discussions with Kirby buffs: 1.1.0 and 1.1.3)
Discussion 5 - Discussion start
Discussion 6 - Discussion Start
Discussion 7 - Discussion Start
Discussion 8 - Discussion Start
Discussion 9 - Discussion Start
Discussion 10 - Discussion Start
Discussion 11 - Discussion Start
Discussion 12 - Discussion Start
Discussion 13 - Discussion Start
Discussion 14 - Discussion Start
Discussion 15 - Discussion Start
Discussion 16 - Discussion Start
Discussion 17 - Discussion Start
Discusion 18 - Discussion Start
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I'll be updating this thread and including direct links to posts made by contributors in the thread. Will be basing the info based on accuracy, experience, and what description you provide. I'll be picking up the pace during summer, when I'm done exams (so close!).
If you would like to ask questions regarding another matchup you're having trouble with, the Fox's Bad Matchups discussion thread and the Mission Complete! - Fox Discussion thread are good places to go (links below).
Thread Directory
Mission Complete! Fox Discussion Thread - General Fox discussion. Q&A thread, discuss anything Fox.
Fox's Smash 4 Moveset/Meta Thread - Discussion of Fox's moveset in Smash 4.
Lylat Datalink - Fox Guide and Information Thread - A thorough guide by Zelkam on Fox.
Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Fox - Amazing Ampharos 's Custom moveset project thread on Fox.
Never give up! Trust your instincts! - Fox Video Collection Thread - Find tournament videos of Fox here.
Other MU Discussion threads in the Fox boards:
Fox's Bad Matchups - Matchups that Fox players were/are finding difficult. A good place to go to for those MUs you have questions about.
FOX's MATCH UPS - Preliminary numbers with comments providing insight in his matchups.
FOX's MATCH UPS - Preliminary numbers with comments providing insight in his matchups.
Let's get the Airwing Barrel Rolling and keep up the discussion.
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