Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

Se7enSB · Mar 10, 2015

luke_atyeo said:
are you sure about that? I'm pretty certain that if you get hit after leaving the ledge (but dont get to touch the ground) you still get your ledge invincibility back.

I'm almost sure that you don't, or is it if you try and stall?

Skarfelt · Mar 10, 2015

Getting hit after leaving the ledge resets the ledge counter as if it was your first time grabbing the ledge.

Timbers · Mar 10, 2015

Sinister Slush said:
I said a bunch in the competitive impressions thread if timber wants to link it.

I can see Jab and Nair being annoying for fox, but two moves shouldn't make the MU feel like a 35:65 for you guys. Only Diddy is allowed to do that.
We do not have kill set ups. Where are people getting this info?

[...]

Just wanna say if you execute jab resets and U tilts right, we should almost never get Nair off on you, and even if we do. You can bait it out after one or two Utilts and shield as soon as you stop using the move since we're obviously mashing our panic button to swat you away.

Yoshi isn't hard to edgeguard too, if you see him using egg toss off stage either just simply reflect it or even go off stage with him and punish during his cooldown frames with literally anything. Even footstool is still a good option.

I'm not entirely sure why Fox, a fast character, is complaining about our Egg toss. Just simply run under us and smack us lol
If you don't feel like it, run forward as if you're gonna go in then back, we'll most likely throw our long wind up fair out and hit nothing since you ran back, it gives another chance to hit us if you were too **** to hit us during our egg toss.

[...]

I don't even wanna comment on the no disadvantageous state to be completely honest... if other Yoshi mains feel like talking about this since I linked them twice yesterday and once now. Then godspeed.

Thanks for the insight. I don't believe any Fox's think that Yoshi is the end-all-be-all for Fox. Fox's roster spread is probably close to neutral for all, so even the hardest MU's are not ridiculous.

I can't think of a character outside of Diddy and Luigi who is definitely (in my mind) a harder MU for Fox than Yoshi (and probably tying with ZSS and Falcon), yet if I were to place Yoshi it'd probably be 45:55/40:60. Obviously subject to change, but having the personal opinion of one of Fox's hardest MU's being a (very) slight disadvantage feels like it may skew MU number impressions.

On the topic of Yoshi's kill setups, what does he even have? I've seen fair -> uair work before, but that seems like it requires some crazy commitment. Jab 1 -> uSmash, but I wonder if this even works against fastfallers such as Fox until egregious percents?

Eggs bother me only when Yoshi is in disadvantage because it promotes ledge resets. I say that Yoshi's disadvantage is hard to capitalize on, but speaking only for Fox. A Yoshi that chooses to ledge reset every time against like, Sheik or whatever, is going to have a terrible time. A fantastic midair jump+air mobility lets Yoshi ledge reset easily to avoid Fox's ground frametraps. Fox already has a poor offstage game, but eggs make the mission seem futile. However, you seem to have experience with Fox edgeguarding you successfully so I'm curious as to how these MUs get played out. These are the impressions that I get, anyways. Have you had bad experiences by just ledge resetting against Fox when thrown into disadvantage?

Yikarur said:
Fox probably beats Yoshi sightly. But no one can play the MU properly.

This is true. There are only a few high level Fox mains, and even less Yoshi mains, and they never play each other lol. Fox having an advantageous MU against Yoshi would definitely imply that Fox has been approaching this whole MU incorrectly, which is also likely true. Yoshi nair and jabs are really good at stopping how Fox normally should play a MU, and probably requires a different flow of play.

Sinister Slush · Mar 10, 2015

Timbers said:
On the topic of Yoshi's kill setups, what does he even have? I've seen fair -> uair work before, but that seems like it requires some crazy commitment. Jab 1 -> uSmash, but I wonder if this even works against fastfallers such as Fox until egregious percents?

Fair Uair is basically 1. If they don't tech the ground after getting hit by Fair and 2. If they DI poorly enough for us to land the Uair on them.
Jab > Usmash isn't 100% either and like you said, Fox's fall speed I wouldn't say it's safe since he'd very likely be able to already be on the ground to shield it.

Also because our grabs and throws are so bad in terms of knockback and damage, you don't have to worry about us killing with a Bthrow at like 200%. It'll never happen.

Eggs bother me only when Yoshi is in disadvantage because it promotes ledge resets. A fantastic midair jump+air mobility lets Yoshi ledge reset easily to avoid Fox's ground frametraps. Fox already has a poor offstage game, but eggs make the mission seem futile. However, you seem to have experience with Fox edgeguarding you successfully so I'm curious as to how these MUs get played out. These are the impressions that I get, anyways. Have you had bad experiences by just ledge resetting against Fox when thrown into disadvantage?

Eggs is basically being used by Yoshi mains because we have no good approach options, so we hope one of them lands just so we can approach with Fair or nair.
The ledge is a safe place and all, but since Fox has the ground speed to run over and force a ledge trump, we don't wanna get above fox since he can just Uair us if we attempt to use Dair to cover us, and DownB is horrible to use if the fox stays grounded waiting for us to do something. Which is why ledge resetting isn't always good since that'd just give fox the chance to trump and get a free bair on us.

The Edgeguarding bit I mostly mean just whenever I get ledge trumped to Bair or even the possibility of getting hit by nair or Uair if recovering high. Low is difficult for any character we're up against since our nose protrudes past the ledge being able to hit him before he snaps on cause he has no actual UpB to autosnap onto it.
If you recall my match I linked a few days ago, I got hit by Dsmash (granted I tried airdodging but didn't happen) and got hit cause couldn't snap onto the ledge.

Timbers · Mar 10, 2015

Sinister Slush said:
The Edgeguarding bit I mostly mean just whenever I get ledge trumped to Bair or even the possibility of getting hit by nair or Uair if recovering high. Low is difficult for any character we're up against since our nose protrudes past the ledge being able to hit him before he snaps on cause he has no actual UpB to autosnap onto it.
If you recall my match I linked a few days ago, I got hit by Dsmash (granted I tried airdodging but didn't happen) and got hit cause couldn't snap onto the ledge.

Aren't you always able to buffer a getup option so that you don't get trumped? It would require you to think quickly when getting up, but I don't think Fox's options to cover getup options are particularly devastasting. Fox is in the same boat as Yoshi in that we can't throw out raw kill moves without being heavily punished oftentimes.

The lack of autosnap has sounded rough for Yoshi. I've tried to take advantage of this as Fox with dsmash/dtilt but always seem to lose to the egg toss that's thrown into the ledge when Yoshi recovers. Maybe I should more aggressively look into this option then.

I think you got hit because you lost your invincibility frames due to trying to grab ledge twice, no? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IkC2wCZd4U (7:30)

Granted, even if ledge invincibility was always refreshed in this game, you would have likely been hit anyways due to no ledge autosnap.

Sinister Slush · Mar 10, 2015

#t=7m30s

I actually checked a few days ago after that was uploaded and Yoshi didn't even autosnap to the ledge (which I kinda knew already, I wasn't aiming to) but yeah.
Funny enough our eggs didn't just get nerfed from damage, Hops,and distance, but it also sometimes gets eaten by the ledge completely or just randomly pops if throwing it while between platforms for some reason. Mostly bringing this annoyin' thing up because the whole ledge thing. It's like a 3/5 chance of it happening.

Yoshi's recovery is pretty booty this time around, so you should definitely be going for ledge trumps or even just the pressure of you being near the ledge makes us weary.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuQ7lEx7WRw#t=1m34s
Just a random match, but in the span of 5 seconds you see three of our "kill set ups" or just kill moves in general being unreliable most of the time. Even 15 seconds later he attempts Jab to Usmash and greninja was able to shield it, should also mention the first stock still isn't gone.

Here's a random Fox vs Yoshi tho too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnuU96q7dQY

DavemanCozy · Mar 11, 2015

Updated MU ratio based on the comments here. Let me know if one of them doesn't reflect someone's input.

I can see Yoshi having the advantage in the MU, but if he does it can't be more than

40:60

Like I said, this matchup is one where you have to be looking for Yoshi's escape options. We are capable of swatting him away with RAR b-airs. It's more optimal to chase him along the ground and bait him into throwing one of his air moves out. Do watch out for frame traps as well.

I also forgot to mention, watch out for Egg Lay and his grab, as they both come out right in front of Yoshi. This means he is capable of catching us while we run towards him (him... laying eggs. Nintendo characters are mind-boggling). Even though it got sped up, his grab is still punishable. If you get trapped in the egg, mix it up between:
a) mashing out quickly, and
b) delaying breaking out of the egg.
Some Yoshis I've played will sometimes jump when they expect us to break out of the egg to catch their victim with one of their aerials. If you delay the break, you'll mess up their timing and avoid a sticky situation.

Regarding Diddy, I've done this one a lot, I've played it with notably Chrim Foisch up here in Toronto.

The banana is amazing. Something as simple as dropping it and standing near it limits our options in the footsies. We can't go up and grab him safely as we'll trip. Dash attack will grab the banana if you time it right, but Diddy can also just shield it and punish you (even if you do grab it). Aerial approaches are risky as is crossing him up, for example he can grab the banana and toss it above him. We can sit back at a safe distance and shoot one laser to force a reaction, if you are far enough you are capable of dodging an incoming side-B or banana throw that attempts to punish us (he has to pick up the banana and throw it). Fox can also use sh sideB to adjust our position if he corners us, which is only punishable if he perfect shields it. Sh sideB is most useful to hit him on whiff with his F-tilts, D-tilts and weaving F-airs to keep us out.

Of course, this is only covering one scenario where Diddy stands near it: to cover all the scenarios with the banana requires an entire guide.

Yeah, that banana... it just controls space so well and is a constant threat. The best scenario is grabbing it ourselves. Keep in mind that it will disappear once it touches the ground twice, so use it wisely: you don't need to throw it right away.

Diddy's D-tilt is very fast (along with Wario's D-tilt, it's one of the fastest in the game) and can juggle us in place. Our D-tilt tipper can do that too at low percents. F-air does a good job of keeping us away, but with our speed we do have enough time to run in after he uses it and get him. His U-tilt is fast, and covers both sides around him. And of course: D-throw to U-air or B-air (depending on DI) is deadly.

What I do like about the Diddy MU is how we can gimp his Up-B using our N-air or a F-air drop. We can also D-smash near the ledge to hit him out of a side-B recover attempt (timing is tough, but I've done it before).

To me, the MU feels

40:60

I honestly can't see it being much worse than that.

NAKAT , I know you have done this MU a lot, you seem to prefer Fox to going Ness for the monkey. Hope you don't mind me tagging you here, we would appreciate any input you may have on the Diddy MU.

Sinister Slush · Mar 11, 2015

If you really want to put it as 40:60 then go ahead. Though 45:55 would be more tame and adding up numbers from both sides would go around there instead of a -2

I still think it's 50:50 but that can be at a later date when people figure out how to actually fight Yoshi and don't just tunnel vision on his pros and ignoring the blatant cons that sticks out more than his nose.

DavemanCozy · Mar 11, 2015

Sinister Slush said:
If you really want to put it as 40:60 then go ahead. Though 45:55 would be more tame and adding up numbers from both sides would go around there instead of a -2

I still think it's 50:50 but that can be at a later date when people figure out how to actually fight Yoshi and don't just tunnel vision on his pros and ignoring the blatant cons that sticks out more than his nose.

I just put the two extremes of the current numbers up in the post to reflect what we've been discussing.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I still think it's even too.

Delta-cod · Mar 11, 2015

I'm just gonna say this regarding Yoshi vs. Fox: Anytime Yoshi JUMPS, you should be under him. Yoshi can't land against shield. Egg Lay has been nerfed, and comes out slower than it used to. This means that if Yoshi is just sorta floating above your shield, you should have hit him already. Our aerials are unsafe on shield. Fox is fast enough to close the gap and get under Yoshi when he jumps. This should FORCE a retreat, which is great. Yoshi's ledge options aren't that good, and if you force him to DJ away, even better.

This isn't just a Fox thing, either. PLENTY of people seem to be getting gimmicked out by Eggs, especially SH/FH eggs. YOSHI IS BAD. He can't approach. He relies on this egg gimmick. We can't even camp anymore because they made pivot grab AWFUL (it has like, 30 frames end lag or something ridiculous now). If you realize that all you need to do whenever Yoshi jumps is run under him, you're already on your way to improving the MU ratio with him.

Once you do this, the Yoshi is forced to stay grounded. And grounded Yoshi's options are TERRIBLE. You can out footsie him with your speed, and then you'll realize that Fox truly wins the MU.

It's probably not by much, due to reasons already stated, but I'm certain that Fox is fast enough to win the MU. Yoshi doesn't deal well with speed characters.

NAKAT · Mar 11, 2015

DavemanCozy said:
Updated MU ratio based on the comments here. Let me know if one of them doesn't reflect someone's input.

I can see Yoshi having the advantage in the MU, but if he does it can't be more than 40:60

Like I said, this matchup is one where you have to be looking for Yoshi's escape options. We are capable of swatting him away with RAR b-airs. It's more optimal to chase him along the ground and bait him into throwing one of his air moves out. Do watch out for frame traps as well.

I also forgot to mention, watch out for Egg Lay and his grab, as they both come out right in front of Yoshi. This means he is capable of catching us while we run towards him (him... laying eggs. Nintendo characters are mind-boggling). Even though it got sped up, his grab is still punishable. If you get trapped in the egg, mix it up between:
a) mashing out quickly, and
b) delaying breaking out of the egg.
Some Yoshis I've played will sometimes jump when they expect us to break out of the egg to catch their victim with one of their aerials. If you delay the break, you'll mess up their timing and avoid a sticky situation.

Regarding Diddy, I've done this one a lot, I've played it with notably Chrim Foisch up here in Toronto.

The banana is amazing. Something as simple as dropping it and standing near it limits our options in the footsies. We can't go up and grab him safely as we'll trip. Dash attack will grab the banana if you time it right, but Diddy can also just shield it and punish you (even if you do grab it). Aerial approaches are risky as is crossing him up, for example he can grab the banana and toss it above him. We can sit back at a safe distance and shoot one laser to force a reaction, if you are far enough you are capable of dodging an incoming side-B or banana throw that attempts to punish us (he has to pick up the banana and throw it). Fox can also use sh sideB to adjust our position if he corners us, which is only punishable if he perfect shields it. Sh sideB is most useful to hit him on whiff with his F-tilts, D-tilts and weaving F-airs to keep us out.

Of course, this is only covering one scenario where Diddy stands near it: to cover all the scenarios with the banana requires an entire guide.

Yeah, that banana... it just controls space so well and is a constant threat. The best scenario is grabbing it ourselves. Keep in mind that it will disappear once it touches the ground twice, so use it wisely: you don't need to throw it right away.

Diddy's D-tilt is very fast (along with Wario's D-tilt, it's one of the fastest in the game) and can juggle us in place. Our D-tilt tipper can do that too at low percents. F-air does a good job of keeping us away, but with our speed we do have enough time to run in after he uses it and get him. His U-tilt is fast, and covers both sides around him. And of course: D-throw to U-air or B-air (depending on DI) is deadly.

What I do like about the Diddy MU is how we can gimp his Up-B using our N-air or a F-air drop. We can also D-smash near the ledge to hit him out of a side-B recover attempt (timing is tough, but I've done it before).

To me, the MU feels 40:60
I honestly can't see it being much worse than that.

NAKAT , I know you have done this MU a lot, you seem to prefer Fox to going Ness for the monkey. Hope you don't mind me tagging you here, we would appreciate any input you may have on the Diddy MU.

Can't go too in-depth atm but Yoshi vs Fox feels moreso 55:45 Yoshi when I play it. Also, Fox vs Diddy is def 55:45 Diddy's favor is not even.

Timbers · Mar 11, 2015

Delta-cod said:
[...]

This isn't just a Fox thing, either. PLENTY of people seem to be getting gimmicked out by Eggs, especially SH/FH eggs. YOSHI IS BAD. He can't approach. He relies on this egg gimmick. We can't even camp anymore because they made pivot grab AWFUL (it has like, 30 frames end lag or something ridiculous now). If you realize that all you need to do whenever Yoshi jumps is run under him, you're already on your way to improving the MU ratio with him.

[...]

Thanks for the input. What do you think is the reason for players (not just Fox mains) being gimmicked out by Yoshi? Are people just respecting eggs too much, or are they not being mindful of the eggs and allowing free setups for Yoshi?

I've personally felt it hard and even became discouraged in combatting Yoshi's who ledge reset, because he can escape to ledges easily and therefore makes it hard for Fox to actually be under him. However, there's the real possibility that I have been respecting his ledge resets too much due to the lack of autosnap.

I guess there's a lot of characteristics about Yoshi that may throw people off and some of these characteristics are unique to Yoshi, as well as being good things. These traits are glorified and thus overlook his also "unique" bad traits, which are more notably recognized amongst a Yoshi player. I'd feel more strongly about this opinion if Japan, a nation overly saturated with Yoshi mains, didn't consider Yoshi to be such a great character. I haven't watched too many Japanese Yoshi players, but somehow sh eggs and retreating fairs all day actually "work" for those players.

Sinister Slush · Mar 11, 2015

People just don't know the Match-up and still think Yoshi is some top tier monster, so yes it's respecting him too much.

Delta-cod · Mar 11, 2015

Timbers said:
Thanks for the input. What do you think is the reason for players (not just Fox mains) being gimmicked out by Yoshi? Are people just respecting eggs too much, or are they not being mindful of the eggs and allowing free setups for Yoshi?

I've personally felt it hard and even became discouraged in combatting Yoshi's who ledge reset, because he can escape to ledges easily and therefore makes it hard for Fox to actually be under him. However, there's the real possibility that I have been respecting his ledge resets too much due to the lack of autosnap.

I guess there's a lot of characteristics about Yoshi that may throw people off and some of these characteristics are unique to Yoshi, as well as being good things. These traits are glorified and thus overlook his also "unique" bad traits, which are more notably recognized amongst a Yoshi player. I'd feel more strongly about this opinion if Japan, a nation overly saturated with Yoshi mains, didn't consider Yoshi to be such a great character. I haven't watched too many Japanese Yoshi players, but somehow sh eggs and retreating fairs all day actually "work" for those players.

Basically what Slush said. Yoshi has always been an awkward character, but in this game he doesn't have any immediately obvious flaws. In fact, at first glance, it looks like they're removed all his flaws. He can jump out of shield. He has more mobility during egg toss (you can drift much faster/easier after initiating the toss in the air), the eggs drop lower making aerial egg tosses more viable, he appears to have very little end lag (and he kind of does, considering certain moves). I was fooled early on, too. I thought Yoshi was AMAZING.

But then you realize he still has the same problems. A lack of a solid move to throw out in neutral/space with. In Brawl, we had pivot grab (combined with camping). We no longer have that. It comes out just as fast, but the end lag is AWFUL. We basically HAVE to connect with the move now. And our grab rewards are basically non existent, since Grab Release combos have been removed (as far as we know), and our throws are bad.

Bair is BAD now. It doesn't autocancel well, so we can't mix up timings with it. Sure, it's stronger, but it's not helpful in most cases. Nair has the same problems of being AMAZING on its initial hitbox, but then lasting FOREVER with a practically nonexistent one. Luckily, it has low landing lag, so we can get away with landing Nairs. Still, nothing to space with, and it's pretty bad on shield.

Fair is sort of filling this role. It has a surprisingly long reach now, so it catches people by surprise. But it's BAD on shield, plus it has a decent amount of startup, with low end lag. Basically, people are getting caught off guard by this move, in my opinion. It's still as gimmicky as it was in Brawl during the neutral game.

So, it looks like Yoshi has lots of decent looking moves that you should shield. Well, it's good that he has a command grab then, right? Except not really, as it's been nerfed too. The removal of DJC drastically reduces mobility with it. It has sizeable startup now. It's slower than Fair. Fair has 15 frames startup. Egg Lay has 20 frames start up. This means that shield is actually SAFE when we're in the air. You should be able to react to Yoshi floating around and starting Egg Lay. In fact, if Yoshi is floating around in the air, it's almost ALWAYS safe to just swat him with a fast aerial of your own, as long as you respect Nair.

Basically, people aren't respecting Yoshi's few options, and get combos broken over and over and over, then say "wtf Yoshi's frame data is stupid this character is so good", and then they give him TOO MUCH RESPECT. Realize the massive flaws he has. He has no easily applicable range. He can't approach. His good options in neutral all either have long startup (aerials) or lots of cooldown (grounded options). If you're familiar with Yoshi, all you have to do is abuse this fact. Over and over and over. Anytime he jumps, you've basically won the situation if you know what to do. This is ALL I'm abusing whenever I do Wifi Yoshi dittos, with generally good success when lag is minimal. Imagine doing it with a character that has better neutral options?

And this is just neutral. Yoshi carries advantage quite poorly. Plus he has no kill setups, and his kill moves are WEAK. Uair/Usmash feel like they take longer to kill now. Bair is an average kill move, Fair is unreliable, Down B is okay as well, Nair practically never kills like it used to.

I know I'm hammering on the negatives here, but that's because they MUST BE EMPHASIZED so people can get an accurate representation of Yoshi's value as a character. To be fair, I think Yoshi does VERY well against slow/campy characters, since he's not going to be punished in neutral for the SH Egg pressure, so he gets the opportunity to use his mobility to weave around opposing projectiles and find his opening.

But a character as fast as Fox? You guys should really be beating Yoshi here. I don't have any experience against Fox, and it sounds like you all struggle in neutral as well, but I'm sure your neutral is better here. Just respect Nair, learn Fair's timing/range, and you should really be dominating the neutral game.

As far as Japan is concerned, I'm not sure why they think he's good. As Slush repeatedly points out, nearly every video we get of Yoshi playing from anywhere is a loss, lol.

Sinister Slush · Mar 11, 2015

Damn, a txt file I was typing up and pasting some of my posts and you/yika about Yoshi Cons is now irrelevant kinda cause this post exists now.

It also doesn't help that the best Yoshi's to watch either have losing videos too and they're sadly not top tier Yoshi's. (which I'm not blaming them since I'm one of them) Or they just never get their stuff recorded, so nobody learns anything.

It's also kinda hard to improve when sometimes the better players just get beatdown by top tiers.

Smashboards borked for a second, Fair is basically our Brawl's Bair now
At this point I'm just hoping that if a patch happens to fix a thing or two in the mewtwo thing they revert things for Yoshi. Hopefully not more nerfs cause overhyped.

Otherwise getting wins off people that don't know the MU isn't gonna last very long and I might just

Timbers · Mar 11, 2015

Delta-cod said:
[...]

if Yoshi is floating around in the air, it's almost ALWAYS safe to just swat him with a fast aerial of your own, as long as you respect Nair.

[...]

And this is just neutral. Yoshi carries advantage quite poorly.

[...]

But a character as fast as Fox? You guys should really be beating Yoshi here. I don't have any experience against Fox, and it sounds like you all struggle in neutral as well, but I'm sure your neutral is better here. Just respect Nair, learn Fair's timing/range, and you should really be dominating the neutral game.

[...]

I think the biggest thing that discourages Fox to pressure airborne Yoshi's is definitely the nair. You really do have to bait it out of Yoshi to whiff nair, because Yoshi nair beats/trades with all of Fox's aerials (bar perfectly spaced bair, but it is hard to space perfectly against Yoshi's airspeed. Also 9F startup, linear, and stuck in lag until you land. Imo it's more optimal to use on a grounded Yoshi in attempt to combat a sh aerial, rather than against a Yoshi that is "floating"). Fox is fast, but also lacks dominating aerials in that his range is poor and lacks disjoints. First hits of Fox fair/uair (1%/5%) will always trade with Yoshi's nair, and the damage/positioning is never favorable for Fox in this situation. Fox nair is just a similar Yoshi nair with less range. It's not a bad move, but it'll always be trading with Yoshi, and trading with Yoshi's superior damage per hit while Fox being a lightweight fastfaller has forced more conservative playstyles (which may be unwarranted).

Either way, I know that a lot of Fox mains would perceive this MU as a much easier one if Fox didn't have so many multihit aerials that lacked range/disjoints.

I think Yoshi's poor advantage is a bit glazed over against Fox, though? If you're getting Fox above you, it's super free %. The only aerial he can land with is a shortranged nair. Being a fastfaller can get him out of some juggles, but he'll always lose to Yoshi's nair/uair, and doesn't have any escape options + poor airspeed to really get away. Any strings that push Fox offstage are also free % due to Fox's recovery (nair eats sideB easily) and Fox recovery is linear enough to fair spike him. This is not to say that Yoshi is amazing or anything, but in this particular instance I think what positives Yoshi does have happens to do well against Fox's few flaws.

As the MU is unraveled further, we'll see that Fox's neutral will still outclass Yoshi's, but I believe there are still real flaws about Fox that Yoshi can take advantage of if and when a situation calls for it.

Berserker. · Mar 11, 2015

Hello Fox mains. Shulk boards want to talk about Fox ~~and why most of us despite going against him~~

EDIT: Wrong link lol

http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-match-up-thread-stair-fax-temperatures.394596/

G-Sword · Mar 12, 2015

berserker01 said:
Hello Fox mains. Shulk boards want to talk about Fox ~~and why most of us despite going against him~~

http://smashboards.com/threads/luig...started-from-the-bottom-now-were-here.394595/

I love going against shulk. Its like a guarantee win for me lol. Him, ness, jiggs, link, marth, lucina,robin are like guarantee wins for me

Berserker. · Mar 12, 2015

G-Sword said:
I love going against shulk. Its like a guarantee win for me lol. Him, ness, jiggs, link, marth, lucina are like guarantee wins for me

Then how about you post in the thread and see what replies you'll receive?

Don't be shy~

G-Sword · Mar 12, 2015

[

berserker01 said:
Then how about you post in the thread and see what replies you'll receive?

Don't be shy~

Lol if they want me they know where to find me

Timbers · Mar 12, 2015

G-Sword said:
I love going against shulk. Its like a guarantee win for me lol. Him, ness, jiggs, link, marth, lucina,robin are like guarantee wins for me

G-Sword said:
Lol if they want me they know where to find me

Your cockiness lacks substance, and it's becoming exceedingly clear the more that I see you post around here. This is just straight up rude. You're not royalty. Be humble and help, or don't and ignore it. No need to rub **** in other peoples faces.

Delta-cod · Mar 12, 2015

Timbers said:
I think the biggest thing that discourages Fox to pressure airborne Yoshi's is definitely the nair. You really do have to bait it out of Yoshi to whiff nair...

[...]

I think Yoshi's poor advantage is a bit glazed over against Fox, though? If you're getting Fox above you, it's super free %.

[...]

You don't need to get him to whiff it. Shielding it works just as well. Any Nair that's not landing Nair that's activated right before landing on the ground is bad on shield, and I don't even think that is great (full disclosure: I lack the frame data knowledge for this). You always need to respect Nair, and many times that means not challenging it directly. It's quite easily baited/punished, though, since it's basically the only real option.

The punishes you should be looking for are not generally immediate as a result. For example, if you run under a SH Egg Toss, if you were quick enough you can hit Yoshi with like, Usmash, before he lands. Otherwise, you run under and shield. When Yoshi lands/hits your shield, THEN you go for pressure. Yoshi's OOS game is still awful. He can't do ANYTHING about quick moves that are spaced will on his shield. If you space poorly, you get Nair OOS'd (and really all you need to do is not be ON TOP of Yoshi to avoid this). Otherwise, Yoshi is basically forced to retreat.

As for the juggling point, I don't think that's entirely true. I believe it's largely dependent on the angle you're launched at. If Yoshi is forced to chase horizontally, his air speed is good, but his air acceleration is not. If you bait him out and say, DJ over a juggle attempt, it's a free landing. Yoshi kind of needs to commit to these juggles. His aerials aren't fast enough and don't cover enough space, and he can't weave well enough to, say, swing really hard in one direction, then weave back to punish the dodge.

I'd imagine that at low percents, launchers like utilt definitely give free %. But at higher percents, I think Fox has plenty of room to escape. On the flipside, I imagine Fox should have a much more consistent landing punishment game than Yoshi does, due to his general speed.

Like I said before, I was definitely railing Yoshi's flaws, and didn't focus much on his advantages (wherever they are). Yoshi isn't helpless in this MU. But I think he definitely loses. His neutral game relies on reads, as anything he does really should be punished, and he can't do anything particularly safely. He's forced to guess or react, and Fox is too fast to make this viable. His punish game is alright, but not as consistent and devastating as it needs to be to make up for the flaws in neutral.

G-Sword · Mar 12, 2015

Timbers said:
Your cockiness lacks substance, and it's becoming exceedingly clear the more that I see you post around here. This is just straight up rude. You're not royalty. Be humble and help, or don't and ignore it. No need to rub **** in other peoples faces.

Clearly someone can't take a little fun. Its not to be rude just joking around while giving some truth that those are my easiest match ups. I never acted like there is a crown on my head. As far as helping out I have been giving my advice trying to help people out and show that fox has hidden potential.

Yikarur · Mar 12, 2015

Deltas Post sums up everything pretty well but I have to contradcit one point.
Yoshis killpower itself is amazing. Pre-Patch 3DS Yoshi was really useless because of vertical vectoring. After they removed it, Yoshis killpower sky rocketed. Yoshis Upsmash (14%) kills Fox at about 116% and downB (19%) kills at about 114% and Yoshis Upair (12%) at about 132% grounded. Without Rage.
With Yoshi being at arround 100% the moves kill about ~0,11 faster and you usually dont hit the opponent on a grounded level with Upsmash or Upair. Yoshis downB's Knockback increases a lot through rage. It kills Fox at about 95% while doing 19% so getting the hit arround 80% will always get you the kill, when you''re arround 100%.

Yoshis problem is actually landing thoose kill moves. They are all vertical so the opponent has to be trapped in some kind because you will never kill in neutral unless your opponent messes-up really hard. And It's not easy to get your opponent in such a position with Yoshi, because our throws are horrible and egg lay has no reward if you mix-up your break-out timing.

Dee-SmashinBoss · Mar 12, 2015

Yikarur said:
Deltas Post sums up everything pretty good but I have to contradcit one point.
Yoshis killpower itself is amazing. Pre-Patch 3DS Yoshi was really useless because of vertical vectoring. After they removed it, Yoshis killpower sky rocketed. Yoshis Upsmash (14%) kills Fox at about 116% and downB (19%) kills at about 114% and Yoshis Upair (12%) at about 132% grounded. Without Rage.
With Yoshi being at arround 100% the moves kill about ~0,11 faster and you usually dont hit the opponent on a grounded level with Upsmash or Upair. Yoshis downB's Knockback increases a lot through rage. It kills Fox at about 95% while doing 19% so getting the hit arround 80% will always get you the kill, when you''re arround 100%.

Yoshis problem is actually landing thoose kill moves. They are all vertical so the opponent has to be trapped in some kind because you will never kill in neutral unless your opponent messes-up really hard. And It's not easy to get your opponent in such a position with Yoshi, because our throws are horrible and egg lay has no reward if you mix-up your break-out timing.

Lol Yoshis Uair has to KO a little sooner then that..........I mean.... Shouldn't it?

DavemanCozy · Mar 12, 2015

Just a friendly reminder:

DavemanCozy said:
Remember to keep it civil.

About Yoshi's moves, when you hit Fox with F-smash / F-air on-shield, Fox is light enough to receive a lot of pushback. So if you do this when you corner him, you will:
a) push him off a platform
b) push him offstage

Meaning we don't really like shielding near edges, as being offstage against Yoshi isn't pleasant.

What about Yoshi with customs? When they're turned on, Fox will be running laser 3 (or laser2 if that ain't Falco but wannabe), side1 (or side3 if they miss Wolf), up3 (or up2 to mitigate gimps), and down2 (dunno how useful the windbox would be vs someone like Yoshi though, down1 might be better). What would Yoshi run commonly or on the Fox MU?

BTW, thanks to everyone here so far. Great discussions going on.

Yikarur · Mar 12, 2015

You don't get pushed off a plattform in this game except you want to. Everyone should revisit his knowledge of this game.

Delta-cod · Mar 12, 2015

Yikarur said:
[Kill Power Stuff]

Hm, if those are the numbers, then I guess you're right. It just...feels like he can't kill as well in this game for some reason. It must be my mind playing tricks on me. It must be because landing the proper moves is hard. And because I've mainly been playing the Wifi ditto and Yoshi is fat.

DavemanCozy said:
About Yoshi's moves, when you hit Fox with F-smash / F-air on-shield, Fox is light enough to receive a lot of pushback. So if you do this when you corner him, you will:
a) push him off a platform
b) push him offstage

You can't force slips off edges in this game from shield push. It just doesn't happen, unless you want it to, as Yika said.

What about Yoshi with customs? When they're turned on, Fox will be running laser 3 (or laser2 if that ain't Falco but wannabe), side1 (or side3 if they miss Wolf), up3 (or up2 to mitigate gimps), and down2 (dunno how useful the windbox would be vs someone like Yoshi though, down1 might be better). What would Yoshi run commonly or on the Fox MU?

BTW, thanks to everyone here so far. Great discussions going on.

In my opinion, the only custom Yoshi should be using would be Egg Launch (Custom Egg Lay). It's basically Egg Lay with faster startup (close to Brawl's, I think), and instead of it just sort of popping you out of the back, it launches you far horizontally, generally forcing you offstage. This would help setup for gimps, and at the very least, gives Yoshi a much better command grab for the neutral game.

Sinister Slush · Mar 12, 2015

Should mention while our kill moves kill earlier with rage and of course no way to combo into them, if we miss any of those laggy kill moves (outside of Uair but that requires us to get anyone above him somehow, even his Uthrow doesn't send them very far at 70+%) we'll be dying ourselves since we're around 100%

Also I believe egg launch is just pre-nerf neutral B for Smash 4 cause they forgot to nerf that too. So it's basically the only custom move to use cause still regular start up n all that plus it does 3% more I believe. It's better in every way cause nintendo forgot to do one thing.

I starting to believe Yika is right about people not knowing the Smash 4 mechanics in this game. Hrm

DavemanCozy · Mar 12, 2015

Oh wow, I was going off by what happened to me during some of my matches. I didn't realize that I was causing myself to get pushed off by what I was doing after shielding though, until I reviewed the way shield knock back works (and shields overall) in this game. The more you know!

I've been unnecessarily getting pushed during all those Little Mac matches then too.

I'll include Dabuz's post. This is actually something I didn't know until now:
http://smashboards.com/threads/3ds-...ne-changes-to-di.378404/page-50#post-18021709

Timbers · Mar 12, 2015

DavemanCozy said:
What about Yoshi with customs? When they're turned on, Fox will be running laser 3 (or laser2 if that ain't Falco but wannabe), side1 (or side3 if they miss Wolf), up3 (or up2 to mitigate gimps), and down2 (dunno how useful the windbox would be vs someone like Yoshi though, down1 might be better). What would Yoshi run commonly or on the Fox .

Customs probably help Fox more than they help Yoshi. Yoshi's nair is not typically a kill move, but with Fox's default recovery being so easy to intercept, Yoshi nair can kill Fox offstage at ~120%. Wolf flash may be up for consideration due to this, as the move is not entirely horizontal and offers at least a little bit of a threat to Yoshi should he miss. I'm not sure if upB3 has any applications in this MU, upB2 is probably worth looking at for reasons below. B3 definitely adds something good to neutral, as well as forcing respect to a recovering Yoshi.

Yoshi's horizontal egg lay looks really good in this MU actually. Going back to nair killing offstage Fox at modest percents, it also may force Fox to upB, which is a Fox worst case scenario.

DavemanCozy · Mar 13, 2015

So it's looking so far like: