Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

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@ pichuthedk pichuthedk Don't go to Lylat if you're playing Zero suit.. isn't it her worst stage? I'd say a better stage against Fox for the MU is definitely Battlefield... and of course Delfino.

This MU is all about being mobile. Unless you're at kill percent, there is never a moment that you should be hiding in shield. Footsies are your friend.
We literally had like nothing left Because he won on smash vile g2 I won on BF g1 , I banned halbard and town and city he banned delphino and castle siege
 
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Skarfelt

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Decided that putting numbers on these is an exercise in futility considering the subjectivity of what they mean at all.

:4fox: vs :4zss:
I've heard a few people say this matchup is in Zero Suit's favour but I'm not seeing it. Can she combo you? Sure. Can she break combos with jab? Yup. Is her neutral still a pile of laggy moves against the fastest characters in the game? Indeed it is. Y'see against Zero Suit she has to do a ton of creative mixups to start her bread and butter stuff - she shouldn't be allowed to get grabs, neutral B's etc. off. I feel like this matchup is in Zero Suit's favour until you understand how to abuse her mediocre neutral game. She's kind of like Greninja in that **** has a ton of mobility going for her but her options to start off whatever are generally punishes rather than anything she can safely throw out.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, another thing is that ZSS' best stages are also our best stages so everyone keeps taking her to Battlefield or Town and City. This is a bad idea.

:4fox: vs :4bowser:
Paging @Krazy Koopa here! Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is the only heavy we have where the matchup is even or a tiny bit in our favour. Bowser's much faster than he looks. KO'ing him and combo'ing him are honestly fine, our advantage state is godlike against Bowser. It's kind of like playing against Robin, Mega Man and so on - getting in is a slight problem, but when you do, you just destroy them. Difference is that Mega Man makes you eat a few lemons, Bowser kills you. There's also a huge problem with the fact that Bowser's ability to cover ledge options is damn near unrivaled and our recovery is linear as hell. I feel Fox in this MU needs to stay grounded, always be moving, SH Side B if necessary and only ever fire one or two lasers at a time. This becomes much easier with custom lasers, like every Fox matchup not named Mega Man. You have to be sooo patient against Bowser - so much stuff that looks punishable just gets powershielded.

:4fox: vs :4bowserjr:
Chatted briefly to @Nagalfar about this MU this morning, we both agree Bowser Jr loses fairly hard. He's perfect combo weight, combo size and dies easily. I believe he's also jab locked infinitely but don't quote me on that. You do have to respect Bowser Jr's strong punish game and KO setups as with all heavies and he has an easier time killing due to confirmed setups out of Side B. Can't comment too much here though, I'm afraid.

:4fox: vs :4kirby:
Have barely played this so I won't comment too much but Kirby is by far the most underrated character in this game. Not sure why he's slept on sooo hard.


Can I request Luigi discussion again? He's becoming more and more prominent, especially here in the UK with JMiller and Mitsu.
 
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EndlessRain

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Just a couple of things to mention:
BJ is, in fact, jab locked infinitely.
Bowser's inbuilt armour lets him ignore our jab. So no locks there. Bowser can't deal with being on a platform above Fox, thanks to super laggy aerials that make getting down a problem (like Skarfelt mentioned, our advantage state against him is godlike).
ZSS's ability to cover landings is not to be underestimated. Grab goes a long way. Remember you can jump or roll cancel downB after reflecting things, which helps if you reflect a Paralyzer. UpB is unsafe against anyone with spikes, if you must use it, go diagonally and not straight up.

EDIT: Seconding request to revisit Luigi. DEHF and Shofu both told me to "run away and pewpewpew" but I feel like there may be more to it than that...
 
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Skarfelt

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Honestly, it's not a bad strategy. Luigi's run speed and aerial mobility are quite poor, just don't get greedy and Leffen laser. It's the same way you should play matchups like Jiggly and potentially Kirby, not too sure on that one. Perfect pivot lasers create a lot of space for you and frustrate your opponent easily.
 

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@ pichuthedk pichuthedk I'm not a fan of Lylat as Fox, but from what other ZSS mains here say they don't like Lylat either. It could just be a worse stage for ZSS :p

The strategy against Luigi sounds about right, you gotta play against him hit & run, his N-air backed up by his rather silly priority in his moves is the ultimate combo breaker. A grab means any %-crazy combo he wants to go for or a KO from him. Luigi's design is insane in this game, that character feels gawdlike at everything except recovering.

About Yoshi, the purple color reminds me of him as Barney, lol I just really wanted to make that joke. This matchup discussion is a stalemate though, it's not going anywhere like this. Though I do encourage the discussion to keep going, I also really think it really needs lab time (something I'm gonna do tonight upon getting home).

Bowser gets jab locked once he's at higher % when the first jab actually make him flinch. I believe it's after ~90% or so when they start making him flinch. I don't see it even though, Bowser's a massive target and we have more ways of starting combos against him besides jab. U-tilt for example, and that move is only 1 frame slower than our jab (lol). He is definitely much faster than previous games, but he still suffers from some old problems he used to have with getting combo'd. (yooo, Bowser mains where yo at!?)

I'll be updating the thread today. Main matchups this week
:4fox:vs:4megaman:
:4fox:vs:4marth:
:4fox:vs:4lucina:

Additionally, feel free to continue discussing:
:4fox:vs:4luigi:
:4fox:vs:4yoshi:

And contribute to any previous mu you want.

I'm gonna go ahead and say a crazy thing I think of the MUs vs :4lucina: and :4marth::

I actually think that Lucina has a better MU vs Fox since she doesn't need to get a tipper to KO, whereas with Fox's speed Marth is going to have a difficult time spacing his sword against him to hit the tip.
 
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TriTails

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Blaster is a horrible option against Luigi. He can just duck and crawl while you are shooting the air and possibly hit your Arwing in the process. The end lag is obvious enough for Luigi to stand up again, and in the end, you are letting him approach freely, with nothing but probably a few 1-3% damage from surprise. Luigi can do million times more than that if he gets in your space.

Just a side note: Months playing as Luigi made me when I tried out Fox feel like I'M PLAYING A RESET BOMB!

The char falls so fast...
 

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@ pichuthedk pichuthedk I'm not a fan of Lylat as Fox, but from what other ZSS mains here say they don't like Lylat either. It could just be a worse stage for ZSS :p

The strategy against Luigi sounds about right, you gotta play against him hit & run, his N-air backed up by his rather silly priority in his moves is the ultimate combo breaker. A grab means any %-crazy combo he wants to go for or a KO from him. Luigi's design is insane in this game, that character feels gawdlike at everything except recovering.

About Yoshi, the purple color reminds me of him as Barney, lol I just really wanted to make that joke. This matchup discussion is a stalemate though, it's not going anywhere like this. Though I do encourage the discussion to keep going, I also really think it really needs lab time (something I'm gonna do tonight upon getting home).

Bowser gets jab locked once he's at higher % when the first jab actually make him flinch. I believe it's after ~90% or so when they start making him flinch. I don't see it even though, Bowser's a massive target and we have more ways of starting combos against him besides jab. U-tilt for example, and that move is only 1 frame slower than our jab (lol). He is definitely much faster than previous games, but he still suffers from some old problems he used to have with getting combo'd. (yooo, Bowser mains where yo at!?)

I'll be updating the thread today. Main matchups this week
:4fox:vs:4megaman:
:4fox:vs:4marth:
:4fox:vs:4lucina:

Additionally, feel free to continue discussing:
:4fox:vs:4luigi:
:4fox:vs:4yoshi:

And contribute to any previous mu you want.

I'm gonna go ahead and say a crazy thing I think of the MUs vs :4lucina: and :4marth::

I actually think that Lucina has a better MU vs Fox since she doesn't need to get a tipper to KO, whereas with Fox's speed Marth is going to have a difficult time spacing his sword against him to hit the tip.
Marth doesnt need to tipper to get a stock. I get what you are saying though.

I think this match is even. Well virtually even since no match is dead even except dittos. I think with Lucina it's just easier to see results. If she does do better it's because of a trait her counter has that Marth's doesnt which greatly helps with edgeguarding fox.
 

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Blaster is a horrible option against Luigi. He can just duck and crawl while you are shooting the air and possibly hit your Arwing in the process. The end lag is obvious enough for Luigi to stand up again, and in the end, you are letting him approach freely, with nothing but probably a few 1-3% damage from surprise. Luigi can do million times more than that if he gets in your space.

Just a side note: Months playing as Luigi made me when I tried out Fox feel like I'M PLAYING A RESET BOMB!

The char falls so fast...
I think lasers should be reserved after you knock him away with an F-throw or F-tilt to tack on extra damage, chasing Luigi is something I rarely do since I don't want to be close to him all the time. It's better to knock him away and then shoot him.
 
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Wat. Nobody said anything about Mega Man yet XD
I might try to look at your impressions about Weegee (:4megaman: can fall pretty fast and he's somewhat heavy).
So, about Fox, two important things :
• Reflector looks like it is a good idea... Until we toss out two Lemons that colide together and let us have a free punish. You WANT to remember you have it, but since :4fox: ain't :4falco: , you shouldn't rely on it.

:4fox: is pretty fast, and like said above, :4megaman: is pretty heavy, so try to get in as hard as possible. Once done, you got yourselves some prime metallic combo fodder :p
Still be wary of random Utilt/Usmash punishes/reads, and of random aerials too. Our Fair is not great, but it still has good range.

Oh, and some awkward stuff you might want to try :
-> :4megaman: can crouch under lasers, but can't Slide under them
->Our Uair and Dair can be reflected
-> Our Usmash can beat your ledge attack (I think)
->Mega Man can footstool with Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier on (saw it once, never did it. I must be really bad :( )
 

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Will probably do more in-depth posts later on but basically we destroy Mega Man. He wins neutral with lemons earning him like 4% for his troubles, we win neutral and get 40% or a stock. Mega Man's neutral is better but it's still heavily in our favour.

Marth/Lucina... I've had plenty of trouble against good Marth players but I dunno, I'm pretty sure we can just be boring and laser camp in this matchup, same as Jigglypuff. I'd argue Marth is better just because we're so light that one stray tipper ends a whole stock at stupidly early percentages whereas Lucina can just do that with huge FSmash reads at higher percentages.

Luigi is still really hard but we can abuse his lack of air mobility well. We should ideally never be letting Luigi land at all. Luigi is just hell for us because of Down Throw/Nair but we can juggle him fairly well as long as we're careful to respect Nair and read his options. I dunno, you just have to be really careful with all your pressure. Weave in and out of his shield, make sure he can't grab you basically ever. It might even be okay to go off stage against Luigi in some cases and just drop down Nair him but idk.

I think I corrected myself earlier in the thread but if I didn't, I totally believe we destroy Yoshi now. I used to think this was impossible but man we can just laser, run under everything and he's such a nice weight to combo... on top of that, Yoshi has basically no strong KO setups so we're both in an awkward position of spending years trying to end stocks. You just have to stay patient. It's very easy to get frustrated and let him Nair you and KO you but you have to just laser, abuse Uair's disjoint and stop your combos early if you're scared of overextending.
 

luke_atyeo

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• Reflector looks like it is a good idea... Until we toss out two Lemons that colide together and let us have a free punish.
reflector should never be spammed but used carefully and sparingly, even in matchups like this but I dont think you are correct about the free punish. When fox reflects a projectile, the instant the projectile is reflected you can cancel reflector into shield, roll, jump or step dodge. If you cancel your reflector, megaman doesn't get a free punish at all.
 
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reflector should never be spammed but used carefully and sparingly, even in matchups like this but I dont think you are correct about the free punish. When fox reflects a projectile, the instant the projectile is reflected you can cancel reflector into shield, roll, jump or step dodge. If you cancel your reflector, megaman doesn't get a free punish at all.
So, Fox's Reflector can be cancelled like Ness' Pk Magnet ? Interesting... And yes, people WILL use their options. :4megaman: will use his Charge Shot once in a while, and so will do :4fox: with his reflector. (I know it, so I'll stop now. WHY AM I STILL WRITING)

Oh, and I'd love to know why @ Skarfelt Skarfelt thinks Fox destroys Mega Man, really. Where is your Team when you need it :upsidedown:
 

Appledees

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In the neutral Megaman does pretty well. He can keep Fox from approaching with his good projectile game and can maneuver really well in the air mixing up his movement along with his projectiles. Fox doesn't have too much trouble getting past Megaman though, I don't play many Foxes I'll be honest but Fox's movement on the ground can give megaman some issues with his projectile game and doesn't help that if the Fox uses his reflector extremely well he can cause really bad issues for Mega.

Fox in my opinion has a bad disadvantage state against Megaman and can actually kill him earlier especially which scary moves like Uptilt if Megaman gets the read. Kills Fox at like 60-70% with rage. However Megaman in the disadvantage against Fox is really bad. Due to Megaman's weight/height, he is combo food for Fox and during that state Megaman is gonna have a bit of an issue to just go back into neutral cause of Fox's great movement on the ground,good aerials for pressure in the air and his close combat game is much better than Megaman. Not sure about the timing on the jab lock but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't very difficult to time on Megaman.

Megaman's good neutral in this keeps it from being anything worse than a 4:6 in Fox's favor. I think Fox wins this matchup but I wouldn't say its a completely one sided unlike some of Megaman's really bad matchups (lol Shiek)
 

Skarfelt

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Well you guys can zone us all day, that's fine, but we can just powershield and mix up mobility options to avoid any "big punishes" (not that Mega Man really has any in the neutral...) and once Fox gets in with a Nair, grab, tilt etc. Mega Man has basically no options to respond to that. No reason we should be getting hit by your KO moves.

This is with Customs off, mind, I've heard Danger Wrap is good in the matchup but I dunno.
 
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I just played against a fox a few hours ago.
He actually beat me in one match, mainly by jumping around me so it was harder for me to hit him with a set up.
 
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Well you guys can zone us all day, that's fine, but we can just powershield and mix up mobility options to avoid any "big punishes" (not that Mega Man really has any in the neutral...) and once Fox gets in with a Nair, grab, tilt etc. Mega Man has basically no options to respond to that. No reason we should be getting hit by your KO moves.

This is with Customs off, mind, I've heard Danger Wrap is good in the matchup but I dunno.
Those are pretty good points, but :
•Usmash has a vacuum effect (not that it should hit anyway)
•Utilt can work as an anti-air attack(risky, but can work)
•We can keep moving while shooting Lemons (which means retreating Nairs or Ftilt->Nairs to recover space) or just make Pivot Ftilts/Fsmashes. Oh, don't forget Nair can kill at higher %. Mind that an your Rage might make you kill us before we do through.
•I think Fair/Bair has more range than any of your aerials
•Rush Tornado Hold can still break your attack strings, but they can also put us in a very bad position
•Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier can still cripple your Close Range game while they are active
•WE HAVE THE BEST DITCIT IN THE WHOLE GAME

I made a huge, useless wall of dots just to list our options. not really useful, but I still wanted do do it.
Now that all is said, I must admit that Fox is so fast on the ground, it becomes horribly hard to keep up once he gets the lead. Plus, since you have an easy rime racking up damage, you should be able to kill earlier than us.

Now I know nothing about Fox' customs, so I can't say anything, but Danger Wrap isn't really that good (unless your opponent either prefers the air(lol :4falco:) or stays in CQC all the time) because it is just a small, priority-less hitbox that rises at around 60° I think, but the thing has got KILL POWER. I think that's why people like it. But if it gets reflected... >_<'
 
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Skarfelt

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I can't really comment on Customs, we don't play with them in the UK besides one tourney I went to in England. The only point I feel that is a legitimate concern is the kiting back with lemons which is a cornerstone of good Mega Man play as far as I know and yeah, it does hurt Fox, but those lemons are just an annoyance. When we get in, you die. Fair/Bair ourange Fox's stuff but they also have more startup and endlag than Fox's stuff. I mean, perhaps "destroy" is a bit much but Fox definitely wins really comfortably.
 
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I can't really comment on Customs, we don't play with them in the UK besides one tourney I went to in England. The only point I feel that is a legitimate concern is the kiting back with lemons which is a cornerstone of good Mega Man play as far as I know and yeah, it does hurt Fox, but those lemons are just an annoyance. When we get in, you die. Fair/Bair ourange Fox's stuff but they also have more startup and endlag than Fox's stuff. I mean, perhaps "destroy" is a bit much but Fox definitely wins really comfortably.
I lol'ed a bit when I read that you were in UK. We aren't that far from each other XD (look at my sig).
But I do agree with you on the Attack Speed : :4megaman: has pretty bad startup and endlag on each of his attacks, even his lemons. Which means that if you choose the wrong option, Fox can punish HARD. Now, I might have got heated up, but since I am in full powered theorycraft mode, I have to imagine what each character can do.
One of you guys should try to play against one of us. MU experience is always better than theory.
 
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Skarfelt

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Haha, that's pretty cool. Few French guys coming over for Celtic Throwdown actually. If you have Skype, add "Skarfelt"/"MrMarill" (not sure which) and I can get some games in or add you to a group for friendlies if you're up for that.

And hey, I play YuGiOh too but I've stopped as much cuz Smash is more fun and less expensive (plus I can just play cheesy crap like Yosenju and still win woo) but that's a totally different discussion =P
 

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:4fox:60:40:4megaman: (customs off, Ontario doesn't like customs in their major tourneys)

The matchup isn't as free as some people think it is for Fox. I wrote a small write-up in the Mega Man mu thread back when the Mega Men were discussing Fox.

The reason it's in Fox's favour isn't because of Down-B, it's more so because Fox is a lot faster in movement and close quarter neutral, meaning Fox can find the KO by committing less than Mega Man has to and has a significantly easier time weaving around Mega Man.

Although yes, Shine certainly helps in situations, it only shuts down Mega Man if the blue bomber main doesn't play the matchup properly. Say for example, F-smash edge-guards just don't work on Fox: if Mega Man tries this, Fox can just get a free reflector and KO Mega Man instead. Or if Mega Man plays the MU with the plan to shoot Metal Blades and Crash Bombs all day, then he's obviously not going to get anywhere. Fox is a matchup for Mega Man that forces him to play differently from most of his other matchups. And unlike other characters with reflectors, Fox's rapid fire (fast) blaster pretty much forces Mega Man to approach us. Mega Man can duck to avoid lasers, but he can't slide under them, meaning neither character has incentive to approach if they're even at %.

If you are the Mega Man player, I like what the other Mega Man's have said here: Mega Man's F-air flame sword is a wide arc above and in front of him, it covers space slightly below and in front of him and can sorta build a wall. B-air slash claw has multiple hitboxes meaning it can frame trap air dodges from Fox (just like we can frame trap air dodges with F-air and D-air, except Slash Claw KOs us). I also agree, it's a pain to get in on Mega Man, pellet lemons are annoying and require Fox to be patient. Once Fox is in, he's very good at staying in and pressuring Mega Man.

I dunno about Mega Man using U-tilt in this MU unless he's dead sure he's going to get it, missing a mega uppercut pretty much guarantees that Fox is going to punish him, and Mega Man being combo food is really really bad for him. Some % things with Fox to keep in mind vs Mega Man:
  • 0% ~ 10% - jab -> jab2 -> (turnaround) u-tilt -> u-tilt -> aerial depending on his DI
  • 15% ~ 30% -> d-throw -> f-air -> u-air works if his DI is incorrect. F-throw is an alternative if you're expecting him DI away, since it's pretty quick and Mega Man will have little time to switch his DI, giving Fox follow ups with lasers to force the approach or tack on more damage. You can also chase after Mega Man provided you're careful of pellets.
  • At 40% ~ 70%, I prefer F-throw. Somewhere around the 45% point (not exactly at 40%, but a little after), f-throw puts Mega Man in tumble state, meaning he has to tech unless he wants to get F-tilt locked (and because of his weight, this isn't an easy tech). At more than ~55%, Mega Man has enough time to jump out of the F-throw.
  • 80%+ aim to put Mega Man above you or push him offstage. Mega Man doesn't really have any options coming down to counter U-air pressure except for his Metal Blade. Offstage, he can shoot his projectiles to cover himself.
Question for Mega Mans: Can he Glide Toss Metal Blades? If he can, is the distance significant enough to do it as an approach / fake out to bait reflector?

Some other things to keep in mind in this matchup vs Mega Man:
  • Metal Blades. Don't expect him to just throw them directly at you all the time, Mega Man has many ways of using them: breaking free of juggles, setting them up in the ground for later use, etc.
  • If he sticks a Crash Bomb on you, Fox is fast enough to stick it back (provided he is close enough and finds time to go near him) and then run away. Shielding crash bomb makes it disappear. Alternatively, you can just jump over it. Keep in mind that it travels a Loooong distance too before disappearing.
  • Leaf Shield is hella annoying, Mega Man can keep it around him and use it as a way to get a hit confirm. He can just roll with it (huehue) to cross up Fox. He has to set it up though, and that takes a bit of time for him to do.
  • Again, F-air and B-air: they cover the back and front of Mega Man. They have good kb. B-air KOs. Keep them in mind anytime you choose to attack Mega Man in the air, whether he's facing you or away. Fox's N-air is fast enough to hit him before F-air comes out provided you're close to him and rising from below. I don't really like going for B-airs against Mega Mans facing away because of his B-air myself, I prefer instead to bait out the b-air or hit him from below with U-air.
  • U-smash has the vaccum effect that has already been mentioned, and covers ledge-getups if you're not aware of it.
  • Lemons: be patient. Both with how you move along the ground and when you choose to jump in front of Mega Man. Also remember that he can jab-lock with pellets, and this leads into a U-tilt or whatever Mega Man wants to use up-close.
  • You can reflect U-air. Don't get juggled by it.
More of an aside, but Imo I don't think any of Mega Man's matchups are particularly that nasty in this game. Fox is probably one of his "worser" ones though, due to his close combat game being faster and his speed letting him exploit openings against Mega Man. He also has the tools to force an approach from Mega Man, and forces him to play differently.

I'll be updating the thread early tomorrow. I'll give one more day to focus on Mega Man.

Also, keep in mind you're free to discuss Luigi, Yoshi, etc, any previous matchup really. If you have a specific request, please let me know, I'm going by @Timbers schedule from the 1st page.
 
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Well, what @ DavemanCozy DavemanCozy said is so on point, I can't really bring up anything else 0.0'
Just two little things :
•You can reflect Crash Bombs' explosions(just like how Ness can absorb it)
•Mega Man's Glide Toss is so good, it can lead to an insta-Utilt coming out of nowhere *cries because 3ds*
 

Gombi

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little question from what i understood luigi is Fox worst match up but is it manageable or really unfavorable ?
 

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Pikachu is waaay worse imo. Luigi is just annoying, you have to play super boring and never commit to anything because grabs are too strong. Still super hard but Pikachu is the only matchup that I feel you might want to bring out a secondary for (unless your secondary is Mario like me and is babby mode so you can bring him out whenever the hell you want with no practice #swag)
 

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Pikachu is waaay worse imo. Luigi is just annoying, you have to play super boring and never commit to anything because grabs are too strong. Still super hard but Pikachu is the only matchup that I feel you might want to bring out a secondary for (unless your secondary is Mario like me and is babby mode so you can bring him out whenever the hell you want with no practice #swag)
Well is is worst match up manageable like 40:60 or really bad like 30:70 or 20:80 juste to give me an idea of the overall balance of the character
 
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I don't think any of Fox's matchups go worse than :4fox:40:60 X in this game. His worst are probably Pikachu, Sheik, and Luigi, in no order.

Discussion should move ahead now.

Next matchup discussion focus:
:4fox:vs:4rob:
:4fox:vs:4duckhunt:
:4fox:vs:4olimar:

I have some stuff on ROB I'll put up once I'm off my phone
 
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Have we discussed Yoshi yet? I'm curious to see what other Fox mains can say about how to play this matchup. I've fought some aggressive Yoshis and it feels like no matter how I outplay them during the neutral, all they have to do is toss me off-stage and they win. Feels like a really even matchup, though I'm inexperienced with Fox.
 

MintyBreeze

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First things first, how pressing do you all think the R.O.B MU is? I'd like to help, but if it isn't much of a concern to everyone, I'll just give a summary of what I think should be done against him and move on.
 

WispBae

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Doggy main!

Luckily, I am well versed in the MU against Fox, considering I have to fight our area's best Fox every so often (maybe I can summon him, paging @//JaZz\\ ).

Anyways, this MU is hell for Doggy, as Fox has all the necessary tools to deal with campers: Speed, a reflector and a faster projectile.

Usually, how I deal with fast MU's is playing a patient game, biding my time, letting the other players make mistakes and shield the wrong projectiles into free grabs and combos or cover air options with Doggy's super disjointed Fair. Fox, however, can stop most of this camping. His jump is very fast, making it hard to cover, lasers can break clays, gunmen, and turn Trick Shot (the can) around. If doggy spams the projectiles, Clay and Gunmen can be reflected pretty safe without punishes (the only punish available being a Fair). Not only this, but Fox also has access to a plethora of combos and KO options, including combos in KO's. Jab Lock is also scary, but Doggy can escape it by using Trick Shot (hurting both of them, but worth it, imo).

The only place doggy can really capitalize on is offstage, with Fox's offstage game remaining pretty bad through out the series with how fast he falls. This is also complimented by the amount of options Doggy can cover with can, as well as being able to go pretty deep off stage while making it back with his good recovery. Stopping a Firefox or illusion is not too hard for doggy.

The best you can hope to do is mix up your game, and keep Fox guessing by switching back and forth between aggro and campy.

I'd give Fox a moderate advantage over doggy, and would probably switch to Kirby in this MU. Hope it helps ^^.
 

DavemanCozy

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@ DavemanCozy DavemanCozy Lets grind the fox/olimar mu sometime. I've never done it yet.
I'll be free tonight and tomorrow night after 7pm when I'm done work. I think Fox vs Olimar is even, imo.

Have we discussed Yoshi yet? I'm curious to see what other Fox mains can say about how to play this matchup. I've fought some aggressive Yoshis and it feels like no matter how I outplay them during the neutral, all they have to do is toss me off-stage and they win. Feels like a really even matchup, though I'm inexperienced with Fox.
We discussed Yoshi already, not to much success. Yoshi mains say it's bad for them, Foxes say it's bad for them. No one side agrees, imo I'd like to rediscuss in depth again after labbing Yoshi vs Fox more (Ryu and Roy are taking priority right now for me).

But feel free to continue discussion if you want and read the rest of the discussion here. He was focused on in the 2nd week.

First things first, how pressing do you all think the R.O.B MU is? I'd like to help, but if it isn't much of a concern to everyone, I'll just give a summary of what I think should be done against him and move on.
R.O.B. imo is in Fox's favour, 60:40 max for Fox. I faced Holy in Neo Canadia 5 and EGL and discussed the MU with him, things he told me which I plan to share here once I get some time to sit and properly do a write up.
 
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M@v

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Really wish my set vs Mr.Eric was recorded at shuffle, at the very least the first game. I wind up losing but the first game especially is close and I feel a good example of the mu. I feel confident in saying he may be the best ROB out there, and that I'm at least a competent fox. What screwed me when I played him was not knowing how much better the Upsmash hitbox on Rob is now than Brawl. Both games I lost by last stock because I thought I was going to hit him and punish him for missing up smash. Nope. I got sucked into it instead and died :(
 

MintyBreeze

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Whatever you do, respect R.O.B's Up-Smash like you would respect Ike's. Even as a R.O.B player myself, when I'm fighting other R.O.B's online, they'll just spam it when I'm at high percents and kill me. Since Fox is pretty slow in the air, and he's a fastfaller, I'd recommend being extremely careful around any of R.O.B's Up attacks, since they're his kill moves.
 

DavemanCozy

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Here are some real good :4fox:vs:4rob: matches:

:4fox:Larry Lurr vs Mr.Eric :4rob: at Apex 2015 (14:38)

:4rob: Holy vs Nakat :4fox: at GOML 2015

Alright, how to start off this mu:

Basically these videos provide what I believe to be the best rundowns of the MU right now.

ROB has slow movement, but his gyro and laser somewhat make up for that. Gyro launches fairly fast and can also be used to help him move, set traps, etc. The RoboLaser is long range and, although we can reflect it, it also forces Fox to be cautious at the long range against him. Because our lasers now have endlag that is punishable, this means Fox needs to be careful of shooting them as well as watch his approach. Fox is quite capable of grabbing gyros themselves and using them to his advantage too though, we can use them for the same purpose except glide tossing.

Probably the deadliest part about this matchup is Fox's weight vs ROBs KO power, which is brutal. Up air, Up Smash, Up throw, F-smash, D-smash, and his other explosive aerials can really put a number on Fox. With that said, all of these moves have considerable startup, all of his aerials have to start up his gas tank (the ones that use it) while his other aerials like F-air or U-air come out decently fast. ROBs tilts are also quite good for just throwing out meaty hitboxes with decent range and keeping Fox at bay, but they are punishable (so his smashes are even more so, as demonstrated above when F-smash and D-smash were blocked with shield and punished with U-smash).

We have our own air game to put pressure on ROB, arguably better than he can pressure us: up air juggles, f-air Foxcopter, n-air to interrupt his moves. None of ROBs aerials except for F-air are particularly fast (and F-air has a hitbox at the front of him too) to stop our air assault. ROB gets out of these juggles in escaping via UpB movement.

I'll be working on editing this.
 
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Genclops

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Let's have a conversation about the Ryu matchup.

A lot of people are going to start playing Ryu and he is a very strong character. I am no tourney champion or anything but as far as I can tell this matchup isn't looking in our favor so far.

He out prioritizes fox more often than not, when he lands a hit he hits hard, his jabs come out just as quick as fox, he has great combos, hes got spikes and a decent recovery off stage.. and if you are not judicious with your aggression, or accidentally shield in the wrong place, he will catch you in his down-special BS and get a free hit off you - which of course can mean the match at high percentages with Ryu's power.

Some rather small observations I have made about the match up are that he is vulnerable directly above you on stage. His dair and nair are not from what I can tell very effective from directly below him, but rather attack at down/side angle. Fox is good at getting under people, and your Uair is not only a kill option that he is vulnerable to, but it also has multiple hits - which can dislodge his Down Special.

Speaking of which, his Down Special on the ground can be canceled by a quick jab-jab, making him vulnerable to a jab-jab U-or-Dsmash if he commits to the move and can't get a perfect shield out. The idea in general with that move is that it can absorb one hit of any kind, but two hits of any kind cancel it out. This also means Dair could be an option due to its multiple hits.
However, he can easily cancel it himself by inputting a dash (effectively making him able to air dash)

If he is stupid enough to try his side special (his spinning horizontal kick) level on the stage towards you, a full hop into dair trumps it everytime because his head is vulnerable. This makes it possible to get off a dair-usmash at higher percentages.
I have seen with other characters that his leg pointing towards the ground is vulnerable too (like against Lucas/Ness forward smash), but havent found a safe response with Fox on that hurtbox. You could easily just get caught up in the kicks if you touch him from below the wrong way.

Obviously, he shouldn't be trying his Red hadoukens against you without care because they move slow and you can reflect it.

I apologize if the things I have brought up are rather obvious... but any other observations, questions or information about this matchup you have - lets chat about it here.
 
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DavemanCozy

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I'm going to be doing bi-weekly discussion focus from now on. I want to take this week to clean up, organize and move some key information in this thread to the OP post. In the meantime, please continue to discuss the following matchups:
:4fox:vs:4rob:, vs:4alph:, vs:4duckhunt:

@ Genclops Genclops I can't comment much on Ryu myself, I have no real experience against him outside For Glory, and that alone isn't MU experience. Since Ryu has been out for just one week and I've seen zero tournament videos of him so far, I also doubt any of us have actual tournament experience against him. I don't think starting discussion now will bring any serious conversation.

Maybe once we start seeing more of him or once we've had more time to lab, feel, and experience the MU. You can keep your post above, as its got good info, but I'd prefer to focus on the above characters for now.

Speaking of which: with the patch changing more characters, what MUs do you guys think we should prioritize in discussing / rediscussing? I'm thinking:
:4falco:
:4metaknight:
:4charizard:
:4marth::4lucina:(they have a good jab now!)

Should be prioritized. Falco specially.
 
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DavemanCozy

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^I agree completely. Charizard's U-throw is insanely powerful now, and his grab range is no joke. Not a character I'm sleeping on anymore.

Also, :4megaman: mains, y u no tell me this, I asked while we were discussing the MU if he could glide toss and I have to find this out by myself:
https://youtu.be/NRqCOvRsU38
Another thing to watch out for in the Mega Man MU with Metal Blades.
 
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