Damn, I'm not sure about G&W getting completely anhilated by Fox that much to make it 85:15, that's overkill. I can believe a 70:30.
I would say the bucket is a threat and not something you should ignore. Obviously don't let G&W fill it, since he gets very strong move this way. The advantage is that G&W needs three shots to fill it, and you generally are faster than him.
There are lots of other things you can do as G&W to stop phantasm and Fire Fox, being F-air and F-tilt. Of course, those are laggy moves which Fox can punish reactively. I do agree that G&W's moves have endlag attached that Fox can exploit.
What can I say... I've been trying to tell this board that same thing for the past months. We have lots of angles to work with Firefox, as well as stalling with shine.
Mav called this mu even in his chart, so I'm curious to know what his thoughts are.
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spiderfreak1011
I was a Shulk secondary when the game was released. I dropped him in favor of Wario, and left the Shulk boards forever. How are things there?
I posted a long post in that board a while back about the mu, I think Fox wins solidly even without the jab lock as long as you know what his arts do. Firstly, Shulk has atrocious frame data. It's not Dedede bad, but it comes close. One whiff is a free punish for Fox and can be U-smash, F-smash, a grab, a RAR bair, etc. For spacing, Shulk has d-tilt as his ground tool and U-tilt as his anti-air. His jab and F-air are his other moves that can be used to keep Fox away, or at least attempt to keep him away. You can run in with shield and not land near him when he's about to U-tilt. Shulk has terrible landing options as well. You can juggle him all day with U-airs. The only part of the mu Shulk wins is offstage.
Speed is the art that makes him move really fast, but his attacks don't deal as much damage. His approach is still limited because he has horrible frame data, he will usually go for a grab or sh -> n-air as his approach.
Buster makes things nasty if he gets any sort of hit confirm. Most often it'll be d-tilt or a grab, and he can rack like 35% from just three hits. His attacks also gain more shieldstun, which only really helps Shulk if he spaces perfectly and which is much harder for him to do than for you to get in his face. Also, he takes more damage while in Buster, which means this is also bad for him. If Shulk's doing empty hops, hit him with U-tilt or a rising N-air before he even has a chance to throw out an attack or land and grab.
Smash makes him as light as Jiggs and reduces his damage output, but makes his KO power more dangerous. Some Shulks use it at the start of the match since being lighter also means getting combo'd less; against Fox this isn't really too bad since we can still chase him. All I'm gonna say is you're still fighting the same slow Shulk, just watch out for D-throw since it becomes a kill throw in Smash.
Jump gives him springs as shoes, in exchange for faster falling speed and he also receives a bit more damage. His main go to KO moves are B-air, F-air and U-air, the first two work well when he's in jump and the other one mainly used in jump after a U-throw. You can jump out to avoid it.
Shield makes him heavier than Bowser and slower than Dedede, he's harder to kill but even easier to bait.
Vision deserves a mention for being an incredibly stupid counter move. The counter window lasts a lot longer than what it looks and deals stupid damage and kb back. On the other hand, it is still very punishable and him whiffing it means free U-smash KO (he will most likely go for it when he thinks you'll go for the KO). Also, Shulk can't do the Forward vision (where he dashes and slices behind him) in the air. It's not really something that makes the matchup harder, but it is something that can kill you at 50% while he's at 150%, so keep it in mind. Also, D-tilt -> F-air string can kill Fox off the side.
At the end of the day,Fox wins the matchup, 65:35 imo. Shulk has a cool character concept, but unfortunately it was poorly applied and its design came out flawed. It's a shame, I think he's really cool, his monados alter his attributes in crazy ways but they don't really fix his shortcomings (terrible frame data, no landing options, no approach).
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No experience with Mewtwo