Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Linari Sabre]

dude I guess you misunderstood me I never actually said that Wding is bad
I just want something that everyone can agree on something
I've seen many say that items are cheap and/or take less skill to use, that is just like telling a noob you suck which is I just dont understand if people cant learn to adapt to different circumstances 2vs.2 or one vs one or maybe bring back FFA w/items or w/out items that will make worth playing at tournies instead of being called noobs etc.

Can I have a definition of skill please Thank You

 

[greenblob]

When people say, "items take no skill to use," they're usually referring to healing items and explosives. The main concern about items is their randomness. Wavedashing isn't comparable because it's not random.
FFAs don't work because they become campfests or 3v1s. Items don't work because they're random.

Skill is defined by wins. If you're more likely to beat someone than he is to beat you, you're more skilled than him. Skill is defined by nothing else.

 

[The Hypnotist]

So many good points a being made that "casual" players don't understand.

1. We used to be like you and now we play the game our way. And we like it more, maybe you should try wavedashing before you say it's bullspit.

2. Competitive players aren't requesting changes that ruin casual play, so why should casual players suggest changes that ruin competitive. That is a very important point. If you don't WD and you like FFA's with max mushrooms then how does wavedashing affect you. Beilve me, if your online doing FFAs with items we won't be there. So I want to seriously ask casual players...

How does us wavedashing ruin your fun and more importantly why do you want it out of the game? If you think it's cheap then no one is forcing you to do it. And if you don't like competitive play then you probally won't play one on one matches with no items. You might hear us say something like items are pretty stupid. But we never say items shouldn't be in Brawl because we know you like them.

3. Skill is defined by wins. If you're more likely to beat someone than he is to beat you, you're more skilled than him. Skill is defined by nothing else.
And that's it, period.

4. You can't compare items with WDing in being in competitive play. Items are random, they spawn in random places. If a mushroom spawns next to someone then he just got lucky. Also with items on faster characters have a huge advantage because they can get to them first. Wavedashing doesn't take away any skill form the game, there is no luck involved in wavedsahing.

 

[Linari Sabre]

hmm I never thought that skill of being defined by the amount wins
I believe that the randomness is a lot like life what you get is what you get maybe it takes skill to actually get out of the most impossible situations and turn them into their advantage not who is most likely to win
dude please leave me alone about WD never said that it was bad
why do so many people misunderstand me

 

[Blackadder]

I have no beef against wavedashing, I don't use it often (Ganon is rather difficult to nail it everytime with) save for when jumping on platforms.
But they may just make wavedashing a "real" part of the game.
Or get rid of it entirly.
It doesnt matter really, WD or no WD, people will buy the game.

 

[greenblob]

Well, how else would you define "skill"? Skill should be defined only by one's ability to win.

Yes, life is random, but this isn't life--it's competition (and according to some, a sport).

 

[The Hypnotist]

hmm I never thought that skill of being defined by the amount wins
I believe that the randomness is a lot like life what you get is what you get maybe it takes skill to actually get out of the most impossible situations and turn them into their advantage not who is most likely to win
dude please leave me alone about WD never said that it was bad
why do so many people misunderstand me

I'm not even directly talking to you...

I'm talking to all casual players.

 

[Adi]

I believe that the randomness is a lot like life what you get is what you get maybe it takes skill to actually get out of the most impossible situations

Would you say the say the same when there's hundreds, or even thousands of dollars on the line? No? That's why we don't play with FFA's or Items.

 

[CaptainFalco30]

and still, the justification for items has nothing to do with the wavedashing argument. If you think items are good, and that randomness is good, fantastic, play those games with other people who play those games. The competitive and casual smash realms are separate. There is no advantage to you for wavedashing not being in the game.

 

[Sporlo]

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to get rid of WDing? As said above, there's no advantage to anyone with out WD.

As you can see from my post count, I'm very disconnected from Smash discussion, but I get a bit of info from Goatee Guy. Anyway, if the SSBB developers have even VISITED this forum, I'd find it reasonable that they know all about your concerns. Obviously, I could be very wrong. BUT, being a smart developer, I would just leave the WD glitch alone and not mess with it. Again, I don't anything about video game developement, so they might have to recode the whole thing or something like that, causing the appearence of the WD glitch to be a coincidence, OR something done on purpose that was programed in.

I am personally not concerned about WDing not being in SSBB. But, again for the millionth time, I could be totally wrong on all my views. Oh well...

 

[BentoBox]

N> Link to japanese smash community forums.

 

[icefox]

even if there is no wave dashing..or any other of the advanced techniques,I will buy it. I bet ,though, that Brawl may have it's own advanced tech. This is my first post yay

 

[Linari Sabre]

this situation is changeable yet I cannot push the river

After seeing these posts I understand that Im pretty much misunderstood

I know what WD is I have nothing against it at all
just why in the world so many think WD makes the game

reason with me here

 

[Takalth]

this situation is changeable yet I cannot push the river

After seeing these posts I understand that Im pretty much misunderstood

I know what WD is I have nothing against it at all
just why in the world so many think WD makes the game

reason with me here

Well, first, a lot of comments are directed to many people in general, rather than specifically you. Also, I don't believe that Wavedashing makes the game (I shouldn't have used the word "ruin" in my other post), but it does make it better.

As to why you're misunderstood, I don't want to sound offensive, but punctuation will enormously increase the clarity of your posts. You don't have to do everything right, but at least put a period at the end of your sentences.

 

[zerosin]

this situation is changeable yet I cannot push the river

After seeing these posts I understand that Im pretty much misunderstood

I know what WD is I have nothing against it at all
just why in the world so many think WD makes the game

reason with me here

WD does not make the game. It's just a widely used tactic 'cuz it's quick, efficient, and another ploy in mindgames. Understand, WDing isn't necessary; heck, I use it only a lot with Fox but I barely shine unless it's against my friend's DK. Same goes for, er, I dunno, SHFFLing (though this is debatable and I could get flamed for this). You don't have to SHFFL, but it's nice knowing you can cut down lag time and make yourself just a small amount faster than your opponent.
Most advanced techs are useless in casual, party play 'cuz there's no incentive to win. So, in your case, sure, WDing, Dash Dancing, SHFFLing, etc, are pretty banal. But we're looking at WDing from a competitive standpoint. It's so much a part of our gameplay that losing it could very much make or break the game (though, in my opinion, I could care less).
So, hopefully, I understood you.

 

[Barrylocke]

As a person who just started playing SSB, I can't wavedash yet. If they removed it, it wouldn't be to big of a deal for me. You guys still have Mellee after all. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if some equally cool/cheap glitches pop up in Brawl.

I personally think that most of the complaints are on having to change your gameplay tactics, but according top smashbros.com they said that many characters would play differently anyways. Giving different tactics to the gameplay might make it less popular, but it will also make it easier for people new to the series to catch up to the frequent competitive players, which is a very good thing if the series goes online.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Well the point is WDing doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't use it, therefore there's no reason in taking it out. That's not what this thread is really about though. It's about Do you THINK wavedashing will be i Brawl, not do you want it.

Now we've talked about that a bit, and it looks like it will be. You know the air dodging, the clip of Wario wavelanding, the fact that it's the Melee engine, the fact that they didn't take it out of the PAL version, etc.

Let's talk more about why you think it will be in or out and less about personal thoughts, because in a discussion like this those get us no where.

 

[zerosin]

Well, again, we kinda have to know a little bit about people's traction. In SSBM, compare ICs and Peach's WD. In the Wario vid, it looked like he got a pretty good slide onto the stage. I think it should stay because it can still balance out matches for people who wish to use it. Though it's a glitch, it doesn't make you god-like; you gotta know how to use it and when to. And I'm sure there will be many other things to help balance out other characters who's WDs seem pretty useless.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Competitive players aren't requesting changes that ruin casual play, so why should casual players suggest changes that ruin competitive.

Quoted. Sigg'd. And you are my new hero.

 

[zerosin]

That didn't really help the discussion
I'm not trying to sound like I think WD makes the game, but is there really any good reason to eliminate it? Of course, there is the fact that it is a glitch.

 

[The Hypnotist]

So now the fun begins, the part where we over anazlyze everything, it really is a lot of fun.

You know start posting pictures and picture clips and changes from the PAL version or whatever, come on guys. And I'm tired of reposting the Wario sliding picture, it's somewhere in this thread, someone do it. Also post the Mario air dodge, the pikachu air dodging, the mario dodging Pikachu's Volt Tackle Final Smash (it looks like a one footed wavedash). All these things are still kinda up in the air, so lets the pictures up!

 

[Takalth]

Quoted. Sigg'd. And you are my new hero.

Yay, I'm in a sig.

Though personally, I liked your quote that EPF used to have in his sig about not getting run over by cars because of Japanese DI.

 

[Baha]

I think Brawl (being that it looks almost the same as Melee) without wavedashing will be a slower game and I know a lot of people that wont like it just for being slower. I know after I played Melee with Falco and Fox, if i have to play without wavedashing (or a technique just like it) it'll be a slow game.

And slow games... suck!

 

[greenblob]

Have you seen my friends play smash? A 4-stock game on YOSHI'S STORY lasts around 15 minutes. Unless one of them plays Fox or Falcon.

 

[maxpower1227]

What if they just cut down on lag across the board?

 

[slikvik]

That didn't really help the discussion
I'm not trying to sound like I think WD makes the game, but is there really any good reason to eliminate it? Of course, there is the fact that it is a glitch.

WD is a technique. Not a glitch. If u think it is, explain how it is a glitch.

 

[Baha]

WD is a technique. Not a glitch. If u think it is, explain how it is a glitch.

Maybe because its air-dodging so close to the ground that the game doesnt know what it is and you just glide and can do anything in that movement?

Its using a technique of the game in a way that it gets glitched and allows something else.

That's not to say I dont love it. I think its awesome

 

[zerosin]

I think Brawl (being that it looks almost the same as Melee) without wavedashing will be a slower game and I know a lot of people that wont like it just for being slower. I know after I played Melee with Falco and Fox, if i have to play without wavedashing (or a technique just like it) it'll be a slow game.

And slow games... suck!

Er, personally, I think it'd just screw Falco and Fox over 'cuz they won't be able to waveshine, but that would also balance out the playing field a little bit. I agree. with your last sentence - I hate slow games. But, I think SSBB players could adapt so that it's just as fast if not faster.

What if they just cut down on lag across the board?

Well, that wouldn't exactly solve things, just open up new problems. First off, if you cut off lag from aerials, that would eliminate SHFFLs or god-knows what else could happen (Sheik's f-air and Falco's d-air become even more pwning). Yet, it could help some others. I unno. I don't think it's a matter of lag time; it's a matter of changing our entire way of playing Smash.
Jeez, I hate overthinking things.

 

[<π]

WD is a technique. Not a glitch. If u think it is, explain how it is a glitch.

Let me give you, and others who think similarly, an example. A mathmatical factual one.

Ready?

A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't nessesarily a square.

this about that for a second. While it doens't match our situation to the tee, it's close enough to get the idea. Just because you can use a glitch to your advantage, or as some would call it exploiting a certain feature. It doesn't mean that the gitch is no longer a glitch, because you can activate it when you want or because you can use it skillfully.

A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't nessesarily a square.
A technique can be a glitch, but a glitch isn't nessesarily a technique.

 

[slikvik]

Maybe because its air-dodging so close to the ground that the game doesnt know what it is and you just glide and can do anything in that movement?

Its using a technique of the game in a way that it gets glitched and allows something else.

That's not to say I dont love it. I think its awesome

The game doesnt know what it is? lol. ok.and being able to whatever you want during the movement is the purpose of that technique. There nothing glitchy about it at all. You airdodge into the ground at an angle which gives you movement on the ground depending on the traction of your character. not a glitch. Example of glitch: yo-yo glitch, black hole glitch, falling through certain levels. Wavedashing = exploitation of the games physics. Honestly, people throw around the word glitch too often

 

[Baha]

Er, personally, I think it'd just screw Falco and Fox over 'cuz they won't be able to waveshine, but that would also balance out the playing field a little bit. I agree. with your last sentence - I hate slow games. But, I think SSBB players could adapt so that it's just as fast if not faster.

Oh if you want to screw Falco and Fox just change the mechanic of the shine so that it doesn't get cancelled by jumping. That way waveshining is out of the question but wavedashing could still be used.

Personally I use wavedashing a lot for spacing and mindgames. In competitive play Wavedashing means a lot, its not everything but it is something that makes the game even faster.

I dont think Brawl will be faster at all since it now (if i remember correctly) has more frames in the animations becuase of the online thing.

 

[Baha]

The game doesnt know what it is? lol. ok.and being able to whatever you want during the movement is the purpose of that technique. There nothing glitchy about it at all. You airdodge into the ground at an angle which gives you movement on the ground depending on the traction of your character. not a glitch. Example of glitch: yo-yo glitch, black hole glitch, falling through certain levels. Wavedashing = exploitation of the games physics. Honestly, people throw around the word glitch too often

It's a glitch you want it or not. Its a cool glitch, its also a technique.
It wasn't meant to be used that way, it makes it a glitch.

Explotation of the game physics to the point where the game does something that wasn't intended = glitch.

 

[zerosin]

Lol. I'm not trying to screw 'em. I play them both. I'd kinda be pissed. You're right, though, and canceling the shine will probably change or be completely eliminated (pray not).

We understand two basic truths about wavedashing: (1) mindgames and (2) spacing. There are probably more, but those are the biggies. For casual players, wavedashing is just a term; for competitive players, it is just another solution to the problem of bashing your opponent.

So, another biggie is whether SSBB is trying to tone down Smash to even more casual play than its predecessors. If so, that could affect the reoccurence of wavedashing. We could be assuming too many things based on the images and videos we watch(a clever mindgame by Sakurai himself).

 

[Baha]

Lol. I'm not trying to screw 'em. I play them both. I'd kinda be pissed. You're right, though, and canceling the shine will probably change or be completely eliminated (pray not).

We understand two basic truths about wavedashing: (1) mindgames and (2) spacing. There are probably more, but those are the biggies. For casual players, wavedashing is just a term; for competitive players, it is just another solution to the problem of bashing your opponent.

So, another biggie is whether SSBB is trying to tone down Smash to even more casual play than its predecessors. If so, that could affect the reoccurence of wavedashing. We could be assuming too many things based on the images and videos we watch(a clever mindgame by Sakurai himself).

oh God I pray for the shine to stay the same =p maybe not to be able to waveshine someone to death (like fox to link) but to be able to use the shine and cancel it with a wavedash, its just too good. Current Fox and Falco without a cancelled shine would be under sheik, marth, and who knows who else in the tiers.

Im not quite sure about SSBB being more for the casual players, i think they are making a good balance of it after all.

I have a question, in one of the trailer videos can't you see a Mario Air Dodging? im not sure

 

[Mandalore]

I play with the same eight people whenever I play smash and I'm the only one who knows how to wavedash. I won't care much if it was taken from the game, since I suck too much to incorporate it into my gameplay; as for the others, they can't so it wouldn't matter.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

What if they just cut down on lag across the board?

I like it. Noobs could move fast so they wouldnt complain too heavily about L cancelers and shfflers because to their eyes they couldnt see the difference in speed.

But that would make for a fast smash game, like when you play sheik her lack of lag is unfair why should bowser have so much lag while remaining a big target? They did donkey kong ok in melee, he can 4 stock a fox if played right...

 

[Deleted member]

I like it. Noobs could move fast so they wouldnt complain too heavily about L cancelers and shfflers because to their eyes they couldnt see the difference in speed.

But that would make for a fast smash game, like when you play sheik her lack of lag is unfair why should bowser have so much lag while remaining a big target? They did donkey kong ok in melee, he can 4 stock a fox if played right...

well, if a fox played right, he could 4-stock Dk

plus, bowser supposedly is nintendo's mascot's enemy- they make him terrrible, while sheik is nintendo's 2nd mascot's ally in the game.

 

[Linari Sabre]

Ahh, I remember those days getting 4 stocked by either of my uncles, using pikachu ness or samus.
Hey I thought that Melee didn't have enough time to complete. Oh, well.

 

[Banks]

my uncle is an old man, i dont see him playing smash

 

[psicicle]

WDing does not affect casual play, therefore it does not matter whether this game is aimed at casual players more or not.

WD is a known technique by the developers. It is in debug mode, therefore they knew about it and intended it to be in. That means that it is not a glitch, because whether or not something is a glitch is dependant on the intentions of the developer.

WD being used so much is not a glitch, trying to say that the devs did not intend for it to be used as it is today is implying that they also knew how everything else in the game would have been played. Trying to argue this means that you are also trying to argue that drillshining (probably not forseen by the devs) is a glitch or whatever you called wavedashing.

I'd prefer L-cancelling to stay in, but maybe with another frame of time so it is a little easier. Or maybe making the hitstuns of some moves a little shorter (ganondorf's d-air... has to be the hardest move to l-cancel). I enjoy pwning noobs in smash. I need to find one of those cocky shield-rolling types to MM me.