Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Dylan_Tnga]

Wow, that's pretty sad. I have played Melee with and without advanced techniques. I was never proficient at wavedashing, but I could do it at times, and my play was usually full of other techniques like dashdancing, circle jumping, SHFFLs, shine spikes, etc. But no one technique was SO critical to my game that I was useless without it.

Sigh. Im not writing new material anymore. I have one post that explains it all so copy paste for the win.

Since the game at the highest level requires you to know how to use or at least counter the advanced techniques, but that is JUST the beginning of one's journey to the top in smash. Techniques must be learned but it is the intellectual game that takes a lifetime, and there's no tier list holding you back from developing that.

WDing in melee for me is just habitual for the situations in which I need it. Remember, when I talk about this game I speak of it at its highest possible play level because thats is what I am aiming to achieve. So It helps to think in the same mindset that professional smashers have about the game going beyond the techniques and characters themselves but more into the realm of intellectual combat between two proficient players who both know the techniques inside and out.

Even before I learned the advanced techniques, I beat event 50 with Link in 2 1/2 minutes (maybe not that impressive I know, but Link wasn't exactly great in Melee), and beat it overall with at least 15 of the characters.. using nothing like wavedashing or other techniques that the computers or average players can't use.

Single player is ridiculously easy. Please don't bring it up in this debate because my opinions are purely based on vs mode matches vs humans. I havent played single player smash in over 2 years.

To me Smash Bros was just always about skillfully applying your character's moves, exploiting their abilities, and having very quick reflexes. Even at the most advanced stage of my play, when Fox was my main, I could terrorize people just fine without his wavedashing. He had excellent speed regardless.

You hit it on the ball man. its about all that, and what I mentioned about noticing patterns and taking advantage of them, setting fake patterns, realizing what patterns your opponent exploits and changing them etc etc, having multiple playstyles and being an intelligent smasher.

The techniques you use are your own choice, people like Aniki have what it takes to be great smashers without even using the wavedash, where as other people like Ken and Luninspectre use it frequently.

And I don't know what you mean by ''terrorizing'' but in melee even if you dont wavedash often with fox, waveshine is a pretty essential technique just to open up combo abilities. Im not talking some DBR shined blind fanboy zelgadis gay stuff here, Im saying like SHFFL drill to waveshine to grab. Stuff like that, should be in any fox players repetoire IMO.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Uhh...no, not a good idea. Why would you want an advanced technique that's twice as useful as WD gone from the game? And yes, believe me, it is in fact twice as useful, if not more.

Let me just put it this way...smash can be plenty deep without WD, but it would be near garbage without l-cancel.

And just so people know, I'm definately not against having WD return to Brawl. WD is my faaaavorite.

Sorry for the double post but Luigi? Wtf did I just say? I clearly stated that "I dont Mind"L-canceling returning to this game.Which means I dont care if its still in because its been in 2 games already.Read 1st,post later,thanks..

 

[Johnknight1]

And about WD being a bug or not... Sure, the devs knew about it. That's how the engine behaves so that the characters don't get stuck into the ground so they had no reason to remove it. But never could they imagine back then that dodging into the ground would have so much impact on our gameplay. They could easily find a solution to these occurences if they feel like it shouldn't stay. Let them do their job and see how it turns out.

WD was left in for a reason, it helped the game engine out, and balanced out the tiers. No GOOD PLAYERS would play Luigi without WD and Wavefalling, because that is where the majority of his moves and skills lie. No one is forcing you to use, or even like WD, but WD is a advanced skill that definitely can help you in every aspect of the game, and balances the tiers out nicely. It pretty much compliments all other forms of AT nicely, like Peanut Butter and Jelly (preferably Apricot Jelly)!

 

[NintendoWarrior]

How would you guys feel if they made wavedashing a single button move?

 

[Adi]

Meh, than it would have to replace another buttotn on the gamecube controller so I wouldn't really like that. It's practically one motion anyways, Jump -> Direction + AirDodge, if you can't do that than you won't be able to play competitive smash even if it was one button.

 

[Johnknight1]

How would you guys feel if they made wavedashing a single button move?

I would hate to face n00bs using Luigi on courses as big or bigger than Hyrule: Temple=ya, lol! Plus they'd take another button on the Gamecube=not smart!

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Meh, than it would have to replace another buttotn on the gamecube controller so I wouldn't really like that. It's practically one motion anyways, Jump -> Direction + AirDodge, if you can't do that than you won't be able to play competitive smash even if it was one button.

quoted for truth.

I wouldnt mind if there was a button for it but the thing is... wavedashing isnt about going the same distance each time.

So maybe thered be a full distance wavedash backwards and forwards button, people who wavedashed the real way would still have the advantage of being able to triangle jump and vary the distance of their wavedash to suit a purpose.

Answer to the WD button questino for me is I dont really care, itll probably just make newbies easier to beat actually. So long as I can do it the way it was done in melee, ill be fine.

Anybody who thinks the wavedash is a difficult technique really shouldnt be playing melee. Children can ****ing wavedash, its simple as all get out.

 

[Linari Sabre]

Why people think that most of us noobs or something else want Wding out in brawl because we're afraid of getting owned or etc.
i see it in dylans point of view why he doesnt want wding out is because many of others like him wanting an already great game being brawl=melee 2.0 other than being something new srry and not because of tourneys i think so

What urks my question is how are you good because of a tech please tell me because finding is that noo one cares to or willing to venture into each others world so we cant in ending this please DONT HATE ME 4 THIS OR RANT JUST TRYING TO SOLVE MY LONGED QUESTION UNANSWERED srry peace

ohh finally yay^ its over

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

how are you good because of a tech

You're not. You're good when you know many techniques and can incoroparate them instinctually at the right place and time based on your predictions on where your opponent is going to be after observing his or her patterns. Knowing techniques is only like... 5 percent of the road to becoming a pro smasher. Its an intellectual game.

however, wavedashing is a great technique, very useful and it doesnt affect casual play since newbies either dont use it or do use it, but as spam and not used for anything. I don't see why it would be removed.

No one here thinks wavedashing makes you a good player, I pity anyone who does. Wavedashing is easy and everyone should try to learn it for melee and see if they can find places to implement it, theres no reason not to its like boycotting crouch cancelling because it wasnt explained in the how-to-play video. Bowser also didnt Meteor cancel marios fair meteor in the how-to-play video. So the techniques are left to be discovered by us, the players.

But to answer your question simply :

NO. Knowing any ammount of techniques does not make the player, what makes the player is how he uses them and how smart he plays.

 

[Linari Sabre]

Thank You Dylan

 

[vericz]

Don't know if this has been posted but mario is definitely doing an airdodge. After seeing the gifs of characters sliding if a player can change the direction of the dodge then wavedashing must be in it.

 

[chiyo-chan' dad]

Do Nintendo hate wavedashing or something, because they might take it out, or make it a proper move.

 

[the grim lizard]

Look, whatever, none of this really matters. The bottom line is: Nintendo made Smash for the fans. They made the original for the fans; they made Melee for the fans. They made it for Average Joe Smasher who can't WD or tech or L-cancel or anything but enjoys playing the game with his buddies.

Nintendo is aware of the Smash community and of tourneys (Sakurai has acknowledge this), but they are going to try to appeal to everyone. My point is, I just don't see them putting too much time on this. I don't see it as a button, and I doubt they really are taking the time to mess with it too much. Take that however you like.

 

[vericz]

Look, whatever, none of this really matters. The bottom line is: Nintendo made Smash for the fans. They made the original for the fans; they made Melee for the fans. They made it for Average Joe Smasher who can't WD or tech or L-cancel or anything but enjoys playing the game with his buddies.

Nintendo is aware of the Smash community and of tourneys (Sakurai has acknowledge this), but they are going to try to appeal to everyone. My point is, I just don't see them putting too much time on this. I don't see it as a button, and I doubt they really are taking the time to mess with it too much. Take that however you like.

And they never meant for it to be in melee but it was anyway. L canceling was including and it was ssb as z canceling. Nintendo may be making the game for everyone but just because they don't remove wavedashing does not mean the average gamer can't play, they just won't play competitively.

 

[psicicle]

note: they are making it for everyone, including us. Melee was great at every level of play from 4 player item matches to tourneys. I would think that brawl would aim to do the same.

 

[Johnknight1]

Look, whatever, none of this really matters. The bottom line is: Nintendo made Smash for the fans. They made the original for the fans; they made Melee for the fans. They made it for Average Joe Smasher who can't WD or tech or L-cancel or anything but enjoys playing the game with his buddies.

Nintendo is aware of the Smash community and of tourneys (Sakurai has acknowledge this), but they are going to try to appeal to everyone. My point is, I just don't see them putting too much time on this. I don't see it as a button, and I doubt they really are taking the time to mess with it too much. Take that however you like.

They made it for the average n00b smasher who plays it with bomb-ombs on very high, and for the best of the best to tech the hell out of. In other words, Nintendo will aim for the balance of n00bs who buy it, play it 5 rounds, and forget they had it, n00bs who can't beat lv. 9 bot fun, decent player fun, average joe fun, excelling player fun, top of the top player fun, and the best of the pros fun. In other words, it will be well-rounded like Melee, so I see no reason for wavedashing's removal.

Nintendo is going to put time in for the n00bs who play it like n00bs, and Nintendo is also going to put time in for us AT users! EVERYBODY WINS, EVERYBODY IS HAPPY! What more could you ask for=???

 

[JPOBS]

people say the gc controller would need a extra button if wavedashing was a button.
why'd that?

X and Y both jump, one could be wavedash and the other, jump. simple.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

people say the gc controller would need a extra button if wavedashing was a button.
why'd that?

X and Y both jump, one could be wavedash and the other, jump. simple.

I think x and y should still both be jumps but if you want a wavedash button there would be like an option to change what your c-stick does from smashes/air attacks into wavedashing in a direction.

Basically all youd do is diagonally tilt the c-stick and depending on where you did so the wavedash legnth would vary.

I think this would be awesome because youd have to sacrifice the all important c-stick smash and stuff like reverse fairs and non fastfalled dairs for an easier wavedash and could never truly compete owing to lack of a c-stick for its proper use.

Thatd make many a wavedash spamming n00blet for me to eat online. Yum yum. And with no c-stick smash or c-stick aerials Itd make my job 2x easier! haha

 

[psicicle]

people say the gc controller would need a extra button if wavedashing was a button.
why'd that?

X and Y both jump, one could be wavedash and the other, jump. simple.

Additionally, you can customize the controller buttons so there will be no problems with preference. I personally already use Y for wavedashing and X for jumping anyway. Others may be more affected because they use the same button for jump and WD.

 

[The Hypnotist]

The realism? We're playing a game with nintendo characters across stages that are from all sorts of differant locations, games, universes, etc. There is no "realism" in Smash. If you want realism, remove double jumping, up-b-ing, and just about every attack in the game.

I'm sorry but he does make a minor point. I've know I've said it a million times but...

Luigi shouldn't be able to clear Final Destanation as fast as Captain Falcon!

They just didn't exect it to happen. Now I'm all for wavedashing but everyone's should be the same length, about Young Link's length.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Hey guys, do you think wavedashing will be back for brawl? discuss.

You have a good question, I'm tired of listening to people complain if they like WDing or not. There's no clash, no real debate. To answer your question again (because I already said this but people are over looking it and just keep complaing about WDing) yes....

It's time to spice up this thread...

So, if we've seen Pikachu air dodge...

We've just seen Mario air dodge in the bowser final picture...

And we even saw Wario freakin wavedash...

Not to mention they aren't building this game from scratch, they are building it from the Melee engine.

And if the devlopers really didn't like wavedashing they would have taken it out of the PAL version just like they took out or modified other things.

I mean you can even think of it this way. If there was no wavedsahing Crouch Canceling would be broken.

with all of this then we know that...
It is very safe to assume wavedashing will be in Brawl!

Is there anyone who still seriously doubts wavedashing being in Brawl because of crawling or the devlopers thought it was cheap or whatever? Does anyone honestly deny everything that I just said as being true?

Come on people, just for the sake of Brawl, I can honestly assure you that wavedashing will be in brawl.

I would like to hear direct feeedback, questions, comments and all from my little rant. Feel free to quote and respond.

I would like to hear more about if you think wavedashing will be in Brawl rather than if it's in I won't play, or it SHOULD be in.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

agreed. when I heard they were re-using the melee engine, I lost all doubt that it would be in

 

[BentoBox]

The debuggers did find out about what we now call wavedashing back on SSBM but the fact that they left it there is a moot point to justify its presence simply because there's no way in hell could they ever imagine that it'd have such an impact. As many have said, the developers never expected Luigi to clear Final Destination faster than Captain Falcon and now that they are fully aware of WDs potential, I seriously doubt they'd like to keep this the way it is; Some of the things that WD made possible went agaisnt the way developers created and imagined certain characters being played. Wavedashing was not meant to be used like we are, it simply prevented us from glitching ourselves into the ground. Therefore, since WD seems to be back, I think it'll be toned down a bit. Or at least, now that it has been made official, they might have changed some things around to make it more balanced; Luigi having more traction would be a start. Tho drastic, they could disable controller inputs while during the WD motion or they could add some lag at the end of the WD animation, Ionno, but surely, things won't be exactly the same.

 

[psicicle]

Taking out wavedashing would be incredibly easy even without changing any other gameplay mechanics, but I doubt that will happen. The developers would not take what is generally considered a good thing out just because it was not intended before. They are not going to be the exact same team and they are not so close-minded that they would take out anything that they initially did not know about. I doubt that they saw the game without WD as so perfect that anything that made it different was bad.

The developers rarely know everything that will be useful in a game. Things such as drillshining, desyncs with the ICs and so on were not forseen, but nobody doubts that standard combinations of moves such as these will not exist anymore.

The dev team is comprised of lots of serious smashers (according to some other thread around here), so the game is most likely going to be playable at a high level, and it will most likely have wavedashing in some form or another.

 

[The Hypnotist]

As many have said, the developers never expected Luigi to clear Final Destination faster than Captain Falcon and now that they are fully aware of WDs potential, I seriously doubt they'd like to keep this the way it is; Some of the things that WD made possible went agaisnt the way developers created and imagined certain characters being played.

If they didn't wanna keep it this way then they would have changed it in the PAL version. However I do agree with you, no one's WD should be that long.

 

[Linari Sabre]

Omg people give it up have you ever just play the game the way it is

With FFAs w/items without adv techs and many have seem to have like it myself included
Not one On one like at tourneys srry dylan but if you tried it my bad
some you may find it a worth while fun or find it exciting to do but just dont go saying you'll buy it but wont play it competitively because adv techs thats crazy for me to see another player I can try to beat and lose most likely but learn from it dont stop playing competitively please

And if Wding is in brawl then that makes it mandatory for to learn it use it properly and counter it that just what a tech is

 

[linkw00t]

Honestly, if he said his Dev team is made up of people who've put some crazy time into the game, like he said. Then wouldn't they be very familiar with WD'ing? I mean aren't Japanese players awesome WD'ers as it is?

I don't think they'll leave it in it's current form, they might make it semi-official, kinda like the samus grapple extention, as far as the developers intended it to be in, but not exactly in the how to play. Get me?

I don't see what the big deal is, WD'ing is cool, but it doesn't make you elite. Good SHFFL's does. I don't see how SHFFL was not intended either, as short hop, L-Cancel and fast fall are intended. To say that Brawl would blow without WD'ing is to say that Melee would. That's a very bad thing to say.

 

[Linari Sabre]

yay another who I can agree with for the fact TO SAY WITHOUT WDING BRAWL WILL SUCK IS SAYING THAT MELEE WOULD TOO AND VERY BAD TO SAY VERY BAD

 

[capncone]

I don't see any reason why they would take out wavedashing. It's not like it hurts the gameplay or anything. Besides, if they do take it out, I'm sure there'll be new advanced techniques to find.

 

[BentoBox]

Crouch dancing!

 

[the grim lizard]

There are basically two reasons why people have trouble with wavedashing and why they may say they don't like it: First, they may use several different characters, and it becomes difficult to master wavedashing since each character has different timing and whatnot. They may also have trouble because while they are attempting to learn (this is true for most advance techs) they are playing with noobs who make it difficult to practice and execute in an actual match. It becomes easy to become discouraged and write it off as a useless technique for pros.

I can WD with almost every character and am fairly proficient, but I can tell you that I at least had trouble with those two things.

 

[yoshi_fan]

I think you are a little obsesed about wavedash.

Is another adv. tech, not the MOST IMPORTANT adv. tech.

I think you have to worry more about L-cancelling for example

 

[the grim lizard]

WDing is about spacing and mindgames for the most part. For most characters, it is not a mode of transportation, but for some it is. Personally, I do hope they keep it in in some form because I learned about it rather late in the game in Melee, and I would like to have another opportunity to get in on it from the start. The only thing I do hope they do is that they tweak it a bit in some way so that it isn't EXACTLY like Melee. To me, that would unfair to already have advanced people be right back at the top. It would be nice if there could be an even playing field at the start (even if we know they will all get really good and end up at the top eventually). It may even be something as easy as changing the timing for it for every character.

 

[zerosin]

I find I'm wavedashing less and less. Personally, I'd just be pissed if there wasn't any more SHFFLING. We can just adapt. I mean, if Aniki can do it, I'm sure with much practice, others can too (though, Aniki is the shiz)

 

[greenblob]

Considering that Z-canceling from the original SSB was an actual glitch and it was converted to L-canceling in Melee, for now I think it's safe to assume that the WD will stay in Brawl (perhaps with a few changes).

 

[The Hypnotist]

Considering that Z-canceling from the original SSB was an actual glitch and it was converted to L-canceling in Melee, for now I think it's safe to assume that the WD will stay in Brawl (perhaps with a few changes).

That's exactly what I think. It may not be exactly what I want. I still hope it's the same button fingering, I'd hate to do something different or harder, but I'll deal with it. Some people are saying that within the button configugration you can literally input combos. I seriously doubt that, I think it's more like you can make B jump instead of Y. But only time can tell.

 

[TheZizz]

Regarding changes in Brawl, the concern of any true fan of Smash Bros. would certainly lie in what would be best for the series, not what would personally benefit the individual.

In any case, whatever they do with wavedashing is not at all contingent on its ability to feed a starved ego.

 

[zerosin]

All I have to say: unless you can completely eliminate mindgames (which is an impossibility in my mind), there will always something that will keep smash going. WDing isn't a necessity (though Samus, IC, Luigi, etc. players can counter me on this). It's just another tactic that compounds upon a general foundation of mindgames and spacing.

 

[Takalth]

Omg people give it up have you ever just play the game the way it is

With FFAs w/items without adv techs and many have seem to have like it myself included
Not one On one like at tourneys srry dylan but if you tried it my bad
some you may find it a worth while fun or find it exciting to do but just dont go saying you'll buy it but wont play it competitively because adv techs thats crazy for me to see another player I can try to beat and lose most likely but learn from it dont stop playing competitively please

And if Wding is in brawl then that makes it mandatory for to learn it use it properly and counter it that just what a tech is

I think you misunderstand competitive smashers. Many (if not most) of us bought Smash picturing a party game and started out playing FFA with items and all that stuff. Through playing, we found that we liked competitive 1 vs. 1 a lot better and switched over.

If crazy FFA is the way you prefer to play, you should see almost no effects, positive or negative, if wavedashing is pulled. Competitive players aren't requesting changes that ruin casual play, so why should casual players suggest changes that ruin competitive.

Oh, and BTW, I had to read the post about 3 times and I'm still not sure I understand everything you're trying to say. Punctuation is your friend.

 

[Tank McCannon]

Competitive players aren't requesting changes that ruin casual play, so why should casual players suggest changes that ruin competitive.

This is all that needs to be said.

I can't imagine wavedashing ever ruining a four-player FFA match with items. Wavedashing won't do any good if three people are ganging up on you with hammers and superscopes.