[Advanced Stage Tactics] Castle new MK Counter Pick and Make Lylat work for you!

[Moon-Doggie]

Ok, so I am fairly new to these fox threads but I have mained fox since the begining. Some of you may have seen my posts on the JJC>Grab combo posts that I have made, other then that I am pretty much new. TO fully introduce myself I am Moon-Doggie and I am a smasher in the Northeast Region CT to be specific and would consider myself one of the best in said state.

The reason I am making this thread is to actually shed some use on two moves, the Uthrow, and the grab cancel with metaknight. Now in no ways are these moves easy and they are rather situational, but as I explain it further you will realize it is more then possible with a little bit of tech chasing and mind games. I will also be going over how to make the stage Lylat your best friend (Trust me it will be)

CASTLE SEIGE:

Now I have been studying stages for a bit with fox seeing how he can really adapt and move to each stage and I found out the Castle Seige may actually play out as a good MK counter pick. Here are my reasons.

1) No gimps- The stage has times where there is only a floor and no pit.
This allows a greater chance of not being gimped.
2) Platforms - this is where the Uthrow and Dthrow come in so ill explain later.
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1) is pretty self explanatory.

Now into further detail with the stage and the platforms pretty much every platform on this level is the perfect height for fox (So is Lylat) what I mean with this is you can grab and opponent and do a Dthrow putting them above you in the rest position. This gives you the advantage with a nicely placed tech chace and an aerial from under. Now In metaknights case and Castle Seige the second phase of the level consists of two hammock like platforms on the top that slant downwards toward the killzone.

The Uthrow comes in mighty handy here at low and even high percantages due to the nature of the two highest platforms. If done correctly you can throw a MK up to the top and they will land on the platform in the rest animation. Once again no matter from what point on this platform Fox can do a double jump into any follow up move. It is preferable to use Uair since the lag will cancel if timed right allowing for more follow up and can kill MK at a low percentage from that high. No another quality these canapy platforms have is the way the slant, if you do a tech chase and grab MK TOWARD the Kill zone, you will be tall enough to perform that great ol grab release into a USMASH, thus killing MK at pretty darn low percents. (This is also being tested but if you grab release MK to the closest part of the Kill zone you might be able to pull a jump into a nair giving him the extra push to kill. Still testing though.)

Also the first phase of this level has a hill which allows you to do a grab release. The MK will grab release unto a platform but FOx has the advantage 90 percent of the time when hes on a platform below. a Simple SH>Fair will do the trick, I myself prefer the FH>Nair since the platform is small which forces one to slide off and fall under where another tech chase can happen.

The third phase seems to be the tricky one but even then it gives fox and advantage, the stage here TILTS. Grab Releases can be done here at any time and even if the stage is flat there is a small hill which you can grab release on. (I have tested it it works, its just a bit situational.)

Now these tactics I just showed you are useful but only can a clever smart fox pull them off. I would not even call them situational due to the fact that fox HAS MOVES that can put many characters in these situations, but It will take practice and alot of training. You must know what the person will do on that top platform and cover all the options. You must also find ways to bait the MK into those slopes which offer that rewarding Grab release, Hard but doable.
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Lylat:

While studying stages I took a peak at Lylat since it is One of my worst stages. By removing myself from the comfort zone I managed to find that this stage actually loves fox. Like above you should be able to pull grab releases with the tilt of the stage but that really isn't what makes this stage shines its the platforms. Heres the break down of why,

1) The platforms are small
2) Perfect height platforms
3) Free Usmash Kills on said platforms

Now these platforms can be used QUITE EFFECTIVELY with fox. THeres three and they all take up alot of space so it wont be hard to get a character up there with a Dthrow. EVEN if a person avoided the platform you can punish accordingly. Now lets say an opponent lands on one of these platforms on that rest position. This leads to, might I say perfect set up for a tech chase?
The platform is so ridiculously small that you can pretty much cover any of there options with a simple FH>Uair. Now the other beautiful thing about these is there height allows for your Uair to be done with NO LANDING LAG whatsoever so you can pretty much SH>Fair before they even think about the follow up.

This amounts to tons of extra damage and the Dthrow can always set up the same way even at higher percantages. Now what is damage without the kill right? Obvious this is where number three comes in. It took be a bit to realize that with a simple Usmash I really couldnt even touch a person on the platforms (BF you can but its uber tricky) BUT I noted that the ships design has two notches under the far left and right platforms that pop up out of the stage. Being curious I tried it out with a Dthrow to set up, my opponent was helpless at that point. I knew he was going to roll back so I wasnt sure if it would work since the stage slants down. I try it anyways by running and starting my Usmash at the notch. AMAZINGLY I followed the roll all the way to the FAR SIDE of the platform and I still hit. EUREKA FREE KILL! It works, I have tested it ALOT. If you Run, start a Usmash on the small hill and Slide to the end of the platform, WHEREVER Your opponent may rest. He will get hit. PERIOD.

Once again you ahve to be smart with these set ups, these are just tools you have to decide how to use them. Hope you like the thread. I Also have some tactics for BF and how to really turn it your way but ill save that for later.
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Stages you can Grab Release MK but is more or Less situational
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Corneria: Its slopey structure allow you to force MK off the ground, Dont know if its tourney legal though.
Yoshi's Island Brawl: The top platform tilts which allows for situational Releases. Would not recomend because
even if you could get the Release in with a Usmash the stage is a bit too big.
Castle Seige: Went over it above, SEVERAL places to be able to Grab Release.
Pictochat: Situational but when the level changes to the slope or Face with hand.
Distant Planet: Bad CP for MK V Fox but slope allows Grab cancel. Will research unique ways
to be able to move on this stage with fox.

 

[Moon-Doggie]

Things to consider While playing these stages

I believe part of gorwing a good fox is also accepting the negatives the stage has to offer AND being
able to make those negatives work for YOU. Below I will paste replies from people who make excellent points
and thoughts. These thoughts I put up should be considered and looked out for and with these points in mind
we can truely make the stage fit for fox.

Lylat is terrible against many characters.

Small stage (harder to camp), illusion gets owned by edges (edgeguard Fox for free), and many characters can abuse the platforms much better than Fox can.

Sure, there are some tricks Fox can do on there, but there are very few characters you want to take here.

Zhamy drives a good point, I will probably have him go into further detail about this later on but Fox's recovery
options DO in fact become limited. On another note though it does you can use this negativity to your own good, I reply to the
post in more detail down below.

Umm, it sounds good but seems like it is incredibly situational. You can't really depend on somebody hitting the ground/platform because they will probably be able to roll/tech/DI to avoid most follow ups. I never really considered using tilted stages to grab release MK tho, I might have to try that.

Also another good point, It can be situational but it is as Situational as a Captain Falcon tech chasing a fox in melee. It is all about
anticipation and recognizing pattern. I reply down below in more detail also.

 

[Zephil]

I like a lot this post, good read. You studied a lot the platforms in some ways I never thought, I will try this and see if this finally changes my opinion that lylat is only good against pika, anyways great job!!

 

[Moon-Doggie]

I like a lot this post, good read. You studied a lot the platforms in some ways I never thought, I will try this and see if this finally changes my opinion that lylat is only good against pika, anyways great job!!

Thanks alot Tech Chasing in melee helped me figure this out alot and Fox has the speed and the Juggle potential to be one of the best on platforms. Castle Seige was the biggest discovery. I just didnt want to let MK have it all xD

 

[SnowballBob33]

Umm, it sounds good but seems like it is incredibly situational. You can't really depend on somebody hitting the ground/platform because they will probably be able to roll/tech/DI to avoid most follow ups. I never really considered using tilted stages to grab release MK tho, I might have to try that.

 

[Zhamy]

Lylat is terrible against many characters.

Small stage (harder to camp), illusion gets owned by edges (edgeguard Fox for free), and many characters can abuse the platforms much better than Fox can.

Sure, there are some tricks Fox can do on there, but there are very few characters you want to take here.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

everything in brawl is freaking situational, its just who knows more of it to actually know something for every situation.

 

[Moon-Doggie]

Lylat is terrible against many characters.

Small stage (harder to camp), illusion gets owned by edges (edgeguard Fox for free), and many characters can abuse the platforms much better than Fox can.

Sure, there are some tricks Fox can do on there, but there are very few characters you want to take here.

Could you go into detail of the characters that can abuse the platforms more? As for Fox's recovery in this stage I do not beleive it is hindered. when a fox is trying to recover you have two options really (this is in reaction to the opponent.) If you opponent is waiting on the ledge ready to chase you out you Illusion unto the stage the reason for this is so that even if they anticipate it, the distance one goes will allow you to not be punished. Now if the person is in the center of the stage waiting for you to illusion one shouldnt Ilusion unto the ledge your right at rhat it is too risky. But a simple fastfall into firefox will not get you hurt.


Also I would like to add these points to the thread itself because they do drive good thought and should be considered.

The reason I say this is because the opponent was anticipating an Illusion unto the stage and will not be able to chase you out in time before you grab the ledge.

Umm, it sounds good but seems like it is incredibly situational. You can't really depend on somebody hitting the ground/platform because they will probably be able to roll/tech/DI to avoid most follow ups. I never really considered using tilted stages to grab release MK tho, I might have to try that.

You drive a good point, and It wasnt until recently where I read somewhere that Techs are calculated differently on brawl.
And through experience I do not beleive an opponent can tech a platform coming from UNDER a platform. This being said the
situation is the same as a captain falcon tech chasing a falco in melee. It takes skill to anticipate the roll/tech but at least
your at the advantage, itll only be a matter of time before you get them on the platform and learn there pattern.

 

[A6M Zero]

*Swoops in from out of nowhere*

I came and decided to choose one post that looked like it would be crap and easily mockable from the title.

It's actually a solid look at a stage choice.

What I'd say goes unsaid, you have Zero's blessing.

*vanishes into the night*

 

[Moon-Doggie]

*Swoops in from out of nowhere*

I came and decided to choose one post that looked like it would be crap and easily mockable from the title.

It's actually a solid look at a stage choice.

What I'd say goes unsaid, you have Zero's blessing.

*vanishes into the night*

lol thanks...?

 

[Exceladon City]

*Swoops in from out of nowhere*

I came and decided to choose one post that looked like it would be crap and easily mockable from the title.

It's actually a solid look at a stage choice.

What I'd say goes unsaid, you have Zero's blessing.

*vanishes into the night*

^^Someone's ego is a little too big for the Fox Boards.

 

[1nconspikuous]

*Swoops in from out of nowhere*

I came and decided to choose one post that looked like it would be crap and easily mockable from the title.

It's actually a solid look at a stage choice.

What I'd say goes unsaid, you have Zero's blessing.

*vanishes into the night*

WAT?

anyway, OP i'll be honest at first i didn't understand what you meant "towards the blast zone" but then i read it slower and got it. are you sure the upsmash is guaranteed after the grab release though? it seems that there's too much space for mk 2 fall to get 1. into range of the upsmash and 2. his moves back.

good find though. nvr would've thought of using the slants. i wonder who else this would help.

 

[Toronto Joe]

as for seige
you have to play really careful on the first part of the stage, that little lip under the edge is really good for MK he can stage spike you off it,i think your better off playing patient and waiting for the 2nd part,just get in some grabs(grab release usmash/work the platforms like you said) and camp

the 2nd part definitely is where Fox can take control of the match,you can camp the **** out of MK and the platforms work so well in Foxs favor,just watch out for early dsmash and SL kills,im pretty sure both characters can grab release into regrab for the k.o if there close to the sides, oh yeah dont forget about refreshing your moves with lasers on those fruity statues,the high ceiling however really hurts Fox if the MK keeps it on the ground,uair on the platform is doable but it isnt really something you can rely on to get kills

the third part you should play just like you would on FD,lots of room to work with etc etc

this stage can definitely work well for Fox,but theres lots of risks involved when you take a char so good at gimping and killing horizontally like MK

no point in talking about Lylat since Fenrirs topic is going over it, so yeah ill just talk about that over there MKs dtilt is OP on the edge though when that stage tilts

 

[TKD]

If someone DIs down and away, they get sent in a trajectory lower than the platform. Even if they don't, there's chance for MK to air-jump or air-dodge before making contact with the platform. They can also not DI so they get sent in a higher trajectory and then air-jump. You can't trap people with your throws. Throws conserve their regular usefulness.

I think I'll start CPing MK players with Castle Siege. They'll never see it coming. I hope it works. I love you.

 

[Charoo]

If someone DIs down and away, they get sent in a trajectory lower than the platform. Even if they don't, there's chance for MK to air-jump or air-dodge before making contact with the platform. They can also not DI so they get sent in a higher trajectory and then air-jump. You can't trap people with your throws. Throws conserve their regular usefulness.

I think I'll start CPing MK players with Castle Siege. They'll never see it coming. I hope it works. I love you.

too late TKD. I already use this as my secondary default counter pick when halberd is ban haha. Been doing it since I attend tourney and decided to main fox like the melee days