Acceptable Phase Length

[#HBC | Ryker]

I like to run 120 hour day phases. I don't like it when day phases last more than a week.

I like 72 hour night phases. I don't like it when night phases last more than 120 hours.

Opinions?

 

[vanderzant]

I really dislike deadlines that are like 10 days long. I think town lost dGames mafia partially because the deadline was so long and they got distracted.

I think at least 5 days for 12+ people is good (as long as prods are dished out every 24-48 hours). Any more days then 7 will probably hurt town more than help it.

In BIM:R, the night phase went for about 4-5 days each time (mostly because the mod was busy) and that probably aided scum's victory as well.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Personally I feel like there should never be deadlines on day phases unless the game starts to stall, in which case the mod can impose and retract deadlines to suit the game's pace.

That's not how we do things here though so *shrug* but most people seem to prefer longer deadlines than that.

As for night phases 72 hours is completely reasonable as long as you allow factions that are allowed to communicate private to communicate as such during the day (i.e. letting mason/mafiats/group indies and such communicate privately whenever they want). If you don't let such factions do so during the day, then I actually think 72 hour nights should be the bare minimum, with 96 hours being more reasonable.

Personally I despise games that gimp such groups by only allowing them to talk at night but that's just me. All I have to say is that if you're gonna do that in your games make sure you actually give the groups a ****ing chance to talk at night lol.

But yeah day phase length is just incredibly subjective. It all depends and how much you value expediency over potential quality of info gathering and scum hunting during the day phase. Imposing short and strict deadlines will make the game harder for the town for the sake of expediency.

Ultimately you can run any game you host with whatever rules you'd like. Wouldn't count on trying to move to get the general consensus on deadlines changed though. Already tried that with prod period design and was met with pretty heavy resistance.

Ninja'd: If the town is getting distracted that's their own fault, not the fault of the deadline. A good focused town knows when to keep discussion going and when it is time to put the foot down and end the day. Just arbitrarily waiting till deadline to lynch someone and letting people get distracted is a mistake on the part of the town, not a flaw in the game design.

The nights in BIM:R were long because people took a long time to submit night actions. Well, the mafia did. I end night within 24 hours of receiving all night actions every night phase. It wasn't because I was busy at all. I just wanted to give all the members of the mafia a chance to send in the night actions themselves instead of having Chuckie do all the work. But, you kinda did anyway. XP

 

[Omni]

I prefer less than a week Day deadlines as well. However, this would also have to reduce the amount of time required for a prod. But this is also fine with me.

Excessively long games dragged out because deadlines are so extended bore the hell out of me, and usually make me lose track of my original gameplan or thought process when delays like that occur. From my experience games that have extremely long deadlines make people more lax with their posting and the sense of urgency never arises until the deadline begins approaching.

 

[Ronike]

I like the current 10 days, 3 nights deadlines. 10 days is nice for people that have busy schedules like me, cause I can tell you right now, if games had days<a week now for me, there would be days where I could hardly make any contributions, which would be ridiculous.

3 days per night is good because everyone should have at least a small window of time in those days in which they can get on and send their actions, and if nights go longer than 3 days, people get disinterested in the game or forget what was going on.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'd love at LEAST a week per day.

 

[Xiivi]

Updated with a poll.

 

[M.K]

It honestly depends on the type of people I'm playing with. If I'm scum, and the people I'm playing with like to keep their distance and not associate with the team, then I'd like a longer night phase to contact them.

Always as town, I'd like a shorter night phase XD I try and cater the game to my own benefits.

 

[thedocsalive]

Personally I feel like there should never be deadlines on day phases unless the game starts to stall, in which case the mod can impose and retract deadlines to suit the game's pace.

That's not how we do things here though so *shrug* but most people seem to prefer longer deadlines than that.

As for night phases 72 hours is completely reasonable as long as you allow factions that are allowed to communicate private to communicate as such during the day (i.e. letting mason/mafiats/group indies and such communicate privately whenever they want). If you don't let such factions do so during the day, then I actually think 72 hour nights should be the bare minimum, with 96 hours being more reasonable.

*goodposting*

But obviously most/all games here now impose deadlines on the days, I'm guessing something happened that made mods use this rule?

 

[CT Chia]

8 days 48 hour nights

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

72 hour nights. If I'm gone for the weekend and the night falls on the entire weekend I'm basicly ****ed otherwise.

 

[M.K]

Is the problem the deadlines, or the fact that recent mods can never update their game on time?

Literally I've watched games that say "Day X starts on the 10th!" go all the way to the 15th before anything happens. Moderators need to get their **** in gear. I've been moderator only once, but I couldn't imagine making my players wait. It's disrespectful, like you've got bigger things to do and to accomplish. It's annoying as a player, too, for obvious reasons.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

sadface.jpg when the poll doesn't account for dynamic day deadline implementation. =(

@ Doc: Who are you referring to when you say mods? Game mods or the forum mods?

There isn't any hard and fast Dgames wides rule that states you must have deadlines on your day or night phases imposed by the room mods as far as I know. It's just that the general consensus in our community here seems to be that having preset deadlines on day phases expedites games enough so that they are the most enjoyable and active. So yeah, it's pretty much an unspoken rule that most people conform to that having roughly 10 day or so day deadlines is the way to go.

 

[Xiivi]

sadface.jpg when the poll doesn't account for dynamic day deadline implementation. =(

I don't follow, it's there.

 

[thedocsalive]

@ Doc: Who are you referring to when you say mods? Game mods or the forum mods?

Whoever it is that is responsible for there being deadlines on days almost universally. I assumed game mods, and based on the rest of your post that seems to be the case.

There isn't any hard and fast Dgames wides rule that states you must have deadlines on your day or night phases imposed by the room mods as far as I know. It's just that the general consensus in our community here seems to be that having preset deadlines on day phases expedites games enough so that they are the most enjoyable and active. So yeah, it's pretty much an unspoken rule that most people conform to that having roughly 10 day or so day deadlines is the way to go.

So if you personally were running a game (that involves lynching people, not daykilling :-x) would you run it with some kind of forced day deadlines because that's what the players presumably would want, or would you do it your way and impose deadlines as necessary based on activity because you believe that to be better?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

@ Xiivi: lol I c wut u did thar

@ Doc: When it comes time to host my large game, Starcraft Mafia, I will most likely be running it with non day deadlines and impose them as needed, but I will be running it with likely a 72ish hour night deadline, and that is because I personally believe it to be a better system because of its flexibility. That and the fact that we haven't had a game like that here on SWF (save my BIM:R) with that type of deadline system in awhile and I'd like to see how it fares.

 

[Omni]

Imposing deadlines as needed?

Sounds like too much mod influence.

 

[Rajam]

48 hours for Night phase, and Day should last 6 or 7 days. between 5 and 8 I prefer 5 since long deadlines are boring.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Imposing deadlines as needed?

Sounds like too much mod influence.

Omni, your SWF exclusive experience is showing. =P

How is it too much mod influence though?

It's pretty objective. If posting has slowed to a halt you just impose a deadline of a few days. Not sure what kind of negative externality you're getting at by saying "too much mod influence".

 

[Omni]

I've played a dozen mafiascum games already.

It's just a thin line if you ask me. Variables like player inactivity, certain player's V/LA'ing, modkills, or player's replacing out has an effect on how long/short the deadline can be imposed or altered.

For example, in DG Mafia where Macman replaced out late D2 and the deadline was extended. That decision definitely influenced the flow of the game. Or like how when the time starts reaching a deadline and player's start becoming more active and then suddenly they're requesting an extension.

I just think it's simpler if set deadlines are established pre-game in order to prevent any unncessary confusion or interactions with the mod that could influence the game. These deadlines can also take into effect holidays and things of that nature.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

You've played a dozen mafiascum games and all of them had pre-established day deadlines?

I ask because when you said "sounds like too much mod influence" it made it seem like you had never played in a game that was run without pre-established deadlines.

I'm not sure I get your point on the whole "changing deadlines affects the flow of the game". I mean obviously it does, but that doesn't mean you should never change them.

If the players are all active and want more time to play, why should you deny them that? If the game isn't stalling and players are engaging in constructive game related discussion, isn't it WORSE for the game and the players to limit their ability to play by imposing a rigid unchanging deadline?

Peoples' lives are dynamic and their schedule's change all the time. Since mafia game activity is directly related to one's schedule and amount of free time, shouldn't a game be flexible and able to adjust to the activity of its players? When people are active and playing, why should they be arbitrarily restricted on how long they can discuss and play the game? When people are not active and the game stalls, obviously imposing a deadline is fitting because it bring an end to the day that the players clearly are not able to do, and thus, allow the game to progress.

It is my firm principal belief that game progression should be as close to 100% in the hands of the players as possible which is only accomplished by the mod not influencing day length until the players are no longer showing the capability of progressing the game on their own.

 

[Kirby King]

I used to follow ff's advice on not setting deadlines at first and got complaints (and one just atrocious show of inactivity).

In my experience 10 day deadlines have worked pretty well. My old rule of thumb was to impose a deadline when conversation died (as best as I could judge), and then set a deadline a week or so out; a few times I noticed this worked out to be about 10 days in total anyway. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a case where town really used the entirely of the 10 days they had and still had more legitimate progress that they could have made if not for the deadline; usually there's lethargy in there, but not enough to really stall a game.

Maybe I could be more open to deadline extensions if they had enough support but I'm with Omni that those sorts of mod decisions can have unexpected effects on how the game flows or what ultimately happens. To the extent that happens though it should be as much in the hands of the players as possible, which I think is "set a deadline and let them vote for an extension if they want it" more than "mod will monitor activity and set a deadline when it 'feels' inactive".

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

What exactly were the complaints Kiki? I'm interested in hearing exactly what was said.

I don't think 10ish day deadlines don't work. Quite the contrary actually, as they work quite well here as we can all see. It's just that I think playing with days that have no initial deadline is principally better.

Reason being, on top of the arguments I posited with regards to game flexibility and letting the game progress naturally as the players would have it, there exists the argument that imposing initial deadlines has a direct influence on the natural flow of gameplay, just as much as adding a deadline to a deadlineless day does.

When you set a deadline of say, 10 days on day phases, you are communicating the message that the day should take around 10 days. It's not explicitly said, but that's the idea that is suggested. This often causes people to play day phases with a style of "how do we best use our ten days" as opposed to "let's talk until we find someone we think is scum, lynch them, and then move on". It's not uncommon for days to be drawn out unnecessarily in games with arbitrarily set deadlines just because the players feel some sort of "obligation" to use all the time allotted to them because by setting an arbitrary deadline, you're making time a premium. When you do that, people have the natural tendency to not want to waste what is given to them that has value.

If you don't have deadlines on day phases, this type of influence doesn't exist. With responsible players, the day will progress and end naturally when the goals of the town for that day are accomplished and not one minute sooner or later. By not making dayphase time a premium, no one will be distracted, rushed, or made lethargic as a result of being early or late in the arbitrary day phase timeline. Without the deadline, players have COMPLETE control over when the day ends. They either end it quickly when they want to by driving a lynch through, keep the day going as long as needed by keeping discussion up, or let the day die down and be closed away by the mod if they are unable to progress on their own. All of these results are wrought by the in game decision of players. Just because the mod can ultimately set a deadline doesn't mean that that isn't under the players' control. They directly catalyze that action so ultimately it falls under their culpability.

That's my whole point about the game being more natural. As previously stated, setting preset deadline causes players to fall into a cyclic dayphase pattern of play, when I feel mafia is better played when dayphase should always be what you make of it.

Of course this does require responsible, active players to be successful and there's never a guarantee that you'll have that in any given game, but principally speaking I really think it's the best system for all the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Omni]

Of course this does require responsible, active players to be successful and there's never a guarantee that you'll have that in any given game, but principally speaking I really think it's the best system for all the aforementioned reasons.

Let's be frank. How "responsible" do you think the majority of the players are when it comes to mafia?

As a mod I wouldn't bet on the success of my game being determined by the player's responsibility especially in large games. That's for certain but that's just me.

Again, this is probably more of a matter of opinion on how a game should be ran. I think the smaller amount of variables the better. Having a game with pre-set deadlines, prod deadlines, and just... pre-set rules in general keep the game controlled and more player influenced. Having the mod come in and say, "Okay, you guys look like you're ready for the Day to end," just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

You didn't answer my question about your mafiascum games. =(

Did they all have preset deadlines or what?

Anyway, I feel like SWF players are responsible enough to play a solid game a mafia without preset deadlines. We did it in the past, and the player base these days I'd contend is of a better quality than it was way back in the day, years ago.

I can see where you're coming from with not liking variables I guess but variables aren't a priori bad, which was the whole point of my explanation of how dynamic day length is actually beneficial to mafia gameplay. You're treating it like it is, which obviously seems to be your opinion on the matter, but it simply isn't true.

That concept might not "sit well with you", but I have a hard time buying any arguments contending it doesn't make sense as a regulation system. Just think about it.

Players are playing the game. Game is active. Mod does absolutely nothing to influence them players or the game length and allows them total control. Player activity begins to die. Mod notices that only a few posts are going up per day and the game as slowed to a crawl/halt. Mod says "Ok guys, you don't seem like you have anything left to accomplish toDay so deadline is in X days (I'd probably say like 3 or 4 usually in this instance). If I'm wrong in my assessment of your desire to continue day phase, show me I'm wrong and pick up the activity and I will retract the deadline." Players then proceed to either affirm my assessment that they have nothing left to do that day phase and allow the deadline to hit, or they show me that I'm wrong in my assessment, become active again, and I remove the deadline.

The players always have control of the situation. Does it really not make sense?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Thanks Xiivii. I approve of that poll. I want to respond to the gaping walls of text, but I'm leaving for work.

 

[Omni]

Some did; most didn't. Two were abanadoned by the moderators. One was abandoned due to lack of activity.

I disagree with SWF players being responsible.

You can't really say that my opinion "isn't true" because it's my opinion. Lol. Which is why I said we primarily disagree with how a mafia game should be ran. I think including more variables where the moderator can influence the game that isn't based on pre-set established rules are bad because I think a well-run mafia game has the least amount of mod influence possible.

So again, it doesn't sit well with me. I never said it couldn't be ran or used as a regulation system; I simply disagree with the premise.

The description of that mod for the game is the essence of what I don't agree with. Players calling down on the moderator for requests that can alter the length of Days, prods, modkills, twilight, etc. It's just another factor of the mafia game that can be controlled to limit player - mod interaction which inversely increases player - player interaction. Imagine if we didn't have a pre-set night time or most pre-set rules in general. Moderators who extend time to cater to night actions that may not have been submitted. Moderators who "use their discretion" on whether or not a player should be replaced or modkilled. The less things set in stone before the game starts the more variables that come into the game that can force the moderator to make a decision that may end up catering to a certain faction.

If at all possible having pre-set everything's eliminates the majority of that possibility and moderators only need to come in during emergency's (unforeseen SWF downtime, holidays, w/e).

The player's have -most- of the control of the situation. They shouldn't determine modkills, time extensions, replacements, etc. or anything of that nature in my opinion. That also includes the amount of time in the Day.

 

[X1-12]

How often should you be made to post? I think 24 hours without prior notice is right, you shouldn't really need more than that

 

[Omni]

I think once every 24 hours is completely reasonable.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Days that last a week with a 48 hour night sounds good. It gives the town a good amount of time while not dragging things out unnecessarily. The length of a Night should be enough to give everyone with Night actions to decide what they want to do as well as send it in in case they are v/la.

EDIT: Also 24 hour pods are fine, I think. Whatever it takes to keep people active.

 

[Kirby King]

I like 48. My reasoning is this: there are times I don't get on for 24 hours at all, let alone get on and have time to catch up and post something worthwhile in a mafia game. It's much less often 48 hours go by without me having that opportunity, and if it does I'll usually see it coming. As a rule of thumb I try to make it so you could visit my game once every ~48 hours and not miss anything, with the only real exception being Twilight (24 hours is long enough for that, anything else is really just elongating things). (And that's not to say I want you to visit so infrequently, but I think that's the maximum amount of time someone might reasonably be away without foreknowledge or notice, so I try to make it so you don't get screwed if that happens to you at a bad time.)

I'd like to experiment with a game that had no deadlines for Day at all, actually. (Not going to do this with my next game because it's a large game. Maybe for my small game wherein I reintroduce the world to rep!) My feeling based on my experience is that it would flounder, barring exceptionally dedicated players (by SWF standards anyway). Reasonable deadlines help prevent the game from stalling, and since I think "ideal play" (town finishes the Day when it's ready to) is tremendously unlikely to happen here I'm okay using 10 days since that works well enough. (In my last game I don't think it ever really got pushed to the wire, either--at least a couple Days ended ahead of the deadline). The real problem is when you have "hmm no activity, deadline approaching" and then people go "OMG we have to post there's a deadline extension please? post post post post post" and you go "okay I see you're posting now, deadline extended/rescinded" and then everyone goes "phew we have more time let's go back to not posting" and repeat ad yougetsickofitum. That's sort of how my game with rampant inactivity went D1 and it was just painful to watch. It's also prone to complaints about mods helping town (more time to post/deliberate = more opportunity for scumslips, I guess) or just games feeling inactive with no deadlines (I think that's the big complaint I got, don't remember for sure).

(Also c'mon, it's called the Day phase, days only last a certain amount of time. )

 

[Tom]

I want to vote for 10 day Days; 48 hour Nights for small games and 14 day Days; 72 hour Nights for large games.

For whomever asked... I started putting deadlines on my games after Tomafia 2 and prodding my players for inactivity after Assassins in the Palace, respectively. I think, after Tomafia 2 and Mediocre's Human Body Mafia, all game moderators simply followed suit.

I no longer believe in deadline extensions or flexible deadlines, because the game is a living thing and certain scum play can strategically, secretly kill discussion to make days more worthless, and that should not be counteracted by the moderator. I know that some people disagree. I am not saying you are wrong; this is just my belief as a moderator - things should be set in stone and the players should work with them as absolutes. A lynch can be swayed in a way you would absolutely not predict and you may end up inadvertently helping one faction through deadline extension.

 

[Wave⁂]

I'd just like to pop in and say that, where I come from, day is 23.5 hours, and night is 30 minutes, and this has been the standard for the ~40 games I've played in. Of course, feel free to ignore me, since I don't plan on playing Mafia here anytime soon.

Mostly because of, well, that.

 

[Tom]

I'd just like to pop in and say that, where I come from, day is 23.5 hours, and night is 30 minutes, and this has been the standard for the ~40 games I've played in. Of course, feel free to ignore me, since I don't plan on playing Mafia here anytime soon.

Mostly because of, well, that.

Neither is better or worse. I used to play heavily at EpicMafia, where days are anywhere from 2 to 30 minutes.

Please dont let that stop you from playing with us! I would love to see what your unique experience playing shorter days has to offer. You probably see things differently!

 

[Vult Redux]

5 days makes people rush and not think. Not fun.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

5 days makes people rush and not think. Not fun.

Except it doesn't. People always rush and don't think and pull something out of their *** at the last second no matter the deadline. 10 days hurts scum, imo. I think shorter day phases are more balanced.

 

[vanderzant]

Ninja'd: If the town is getting distracted that's their own fault, not the fault of the deadline. A good focused town knows when to keep discussion going and when it is time to put the foot down and end the day. Just arbitrarily waiting till deadline to lynch someone and letting people get distracted is a mistake on the part of the town, not a flaw in the game design.

The nights in BIM:R were long because people took a long time to submit night actions. Well, the mafia did. I end night within 24 hours of receiving all night actions every night phase. It wasn't because I was busy at all. I just wanted to give all the members of the mafia a chance to send in the night actions themselves instead of having Chuckie do all the work. But, you kinda did anyway. XP

But yet it still happened in a game like Dgames when there were a lot of experienced players playing for Town: Marshy, Tom, Omni, Overswarm, Rockin, Nich, Meta-Kirby, Zensei. Really, apart from Kirbyyoshi, you'd expect everyone to be good enough to 'not get distracted.' But they still did (and we won muhahahahaha).

And yes you're right about BIM, my mistake. We (chuckie) submitted every night action even though we were the lowest priority for picking kills :/.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

If I'm scum 1 day, if I'm town 8 days. lol. jk

All joking aside I think 7 days would be perfect, I picked 8 since it's the closest.

nights shoudl be 48 hours. Nights lasting any longer is ridiculous. How long does it take to send a PM that says "Protect: Play X"

 

[Nicholas1024]

As scum, 8 minutes. As town, 8 days seems to be just about right.

I think 72 hour nights are good, since it gives everyone time to communicate. Besides, there are times (not often, but they happen), when I'm not on my computer for 48 hours. I wouldn't want to miss the entire night phase simply because of that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

10 days is best imo. It's not like the town always has to use each day of a Day.