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A Revelation!

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
I did some serious thinking, and I am very optimistic about ZSS' viability right now. I am developing a really good strategy now, and I'm really excited about it because it's more fun to play this way than I've ever played the game before :p

...Also, I owe an apology to Nick Riddle. I was being way too harsh about my opinions, and I was biased because it's frustrating when you lose the spotlight believe it or not. However, being the underdog is much more fun to be honest. It's not just my' rivalry' with Nick Riddle, but I just absolutely LOVE proving myself in just about anything I care about. When I finally got recognition, I felt great! Once I'm there for a while though, I often get sloppy and lazy. People surpass me like he did. I do admit he is producing better results than me at this moment, and his style is not quite as gimmicky as I previously thought (though there are clearly a few flaws). I certainly respect his ability as a player now.

Nick's style actually IS very similar to the way I used to play. However, I think it's because he buffers an escape move* after D-smash to avoid being punished. This may work well, because the opponent has to be pretty quick to be able to punish it (which a lot more ppl are nowadays) so if you're buffering an escape, it will be much more difficult for the opponent to consistently punish ZSS.
* The escape moves I'm talking about are spot-dodge, roll, and jab.

Another problem was at the time I decided D-smash was useless, I had been preparing a 2nd d-smash after it (for 2x d-smash combos). My opponents often read this leak in my game, and it's far easier for them to punish if they know you're going to do that. I've since corrected that issue, but was already using it very minimally so I couldn't have noticed much difference of the move's effectiveness.

I feel I've gotten much, much better at this game as of very very recently. This goes along with my ability as a poker player too, because it's mostly my psychological game that has advanced (I just realized I have the biggest edge in heads up cash games). Most of my performance is based on how accurate I am at tracing my opponent's train of thought.It's allowed me to utilize ZSS' grab proficiently, and let me tell you it makes you MUCH more difficult to play against if you throw in grabs when you're especially sure of your read on your opponent. Let me know if anyone would like to know more about this subject btw.

On a side note, another interesting thing to do is approach your opponent with a running (instant) up air. It seems very safe in most cases because you can land behind them, where hitting their shield with the reverse hitbox of up air seems to be a good option. The reason this is useful is because too many people short hop aerial against approaches WAY too often. Because of this, you'll (at least initially) actually hit with the up air the vast majority of the time they attempt their aerial. If your opponent catches onto this, it at least makes the option of grounded short hop aerials much scarier for them to use.

Also, the ZSS metagame is being improved further now. For one thing, Evan (SFP), made a new video showing some interesting stuff. With technical players like him around, we can discover plenty of things we just haven't noticed yet.

I am 100% confident that I will now give it my all in trying to be the best at this game, and doing it primarily with this character.
 

Zero

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
5,825
Location
ワイヤード
I'd like to see you post a more detailed analysis of your thoughts on ZSS' grab. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say regarding that, as I am definitely of the opinion that her grab is too substandard for use.

I'm glad to see you back in action :)
 

solecalibur

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,330
Location
Cbus
Ok woo!
glad to see more (from none) people contributing , I really do want to attempt to help the metagame also but school and work have taken over my life, all i can really do is read about it and try it during a tounry (if I even have time for that now)

BUT SERIOUSLY POST MORE
We need more people (not just screwing around on social) to talk about legit combos that will work on other characters or breaking down our opponent more (not just their normal habbits but what to do in situation X)

Im most likely going to step my game up during the school year but I also need some other people helping contribute to the metagame as well
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
I'd like to see you post a more detailed analysis of your thoughts on ZSS' grab. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say regarding that, as I am definitely of the opinion that her grab is too substandard for use.

I'm glad to see you back in action :)
The main reason that you have to implement grabs into your game is because NOT using it at least with some frequency makes you MUCH more easy to play against and very predictable. Grabs are often easy to land (if you're good at spacing it outside it's dead zone) primarily because they realize how risky and unsafe it is for us to use, and thus they rarely can make the correct read of your grab even if you start using it a bit.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
If you throw out grabs, people stop only shielding.
If you don't throw out grabs, enjoy not taking hits.
Just don't use them too much. :D

Hooray Snakeee~
I look forward to stealing your new stuff later.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
I've been playing a lot with the top players in norcal lately, Choice, Zex, Sean, and Sky'. They've been saying that I've gotten amazingly better in the couple sessions we've played, and I think one of my big advances was learning to grab more consistently.

The way I think about it is really simple: when are opponents typically going to either start a dash, whiff an attack, or shield.

I'd like to hear some of your answers to the above question. But let me say that the read I've found the most success with is when you're spacing midranged attacks outside of the opponents range. What has everyone who thinks they know how to beat ZSS been trying to drill into everyone else's heads? Walking or dashing and shielding is the best way to approach. For me, simply side bing a shield at max range can lead to a dash or whiffed attack, which a vanilla grab or p. grab will usually punish.
 

Janne

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
225
Location
Asia tour
@Snakeee

It's always helpful to be confident in your skills and to be more optimistic about the character you're using. That way you'll feel better and you'd enjoy the game more. I'm looking forward to any new stuff you can say about ZSS :)
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
I do find it funny. It's the only good thing about ZSS's gra-- HOLY **** YOU GRABBED WITH ZSS WHY
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
I don't see why anyone would be pessimistic about ZSS' future. She has nowhere to go but up.
Well, when I lose a tourney set where I honestly feel I completely outplayed my opponent and gave it my all, it's really discouraging :(. There were spots where I couldn't think of a really viable option, but instead of complaining now, I'm looking for new ideas :)
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
I've been playing a lot with the top players in norcal lately, Choice, Zex, Sean, and Sky'. They've been saying that I've gotten amazingly better in the couple sessions we've played, and I think one of my big advances was learning to grab more consistently.

The way I think about it is really simple: when are opponents typically going to either start a dash, whiff an attack, or shield.

I'd like to hear some of your answers to the above question. But let me say that the read I've found the most success with is when you're spacing midranged attacks outside of the opponents range. What has everyone who thinks they know how to beat ZSS been trying to drill into everyone else's heads? Walking or dashing and shielding is the best way to approach. For me, simply side bing a shield at max range can lead to a dash or whiffed attack, which a vanilla grab or p. grab will usually punish.
Basically, you want to grab primarily when you STRONGLY expect your opponent to approach you. There are times where you want to dash grab, and times when you should actually just stand still and grab. The standing grab should often be used if they decide to dash at you (usually for grabs themselves). This is scary as hell to do, and feels crazy to try at first. It's completely worth it if you're really sure you made the right read.

Dash grab requires you to be very aware of the length of a single dash - grab with ZSS (which is mostly what you'll be doing). At first, I overshot the dash grab a lot which was pretty embarrassing :laugh:.
This is a solid option against opponents who sit in their shields a lot against your approaches or if they are the type to walk at you (usually to space tilts [ie: MK, Snake]).

You should also implement the pivot grab into your arsenal. It's usually very unexpected and is a great option to punish your opponents landing if they are outside your range for an up air.

Another interesting option is dash dance - grab. I haven't messed around with dash dancing with ZSS really, but it's definitely something to consider.

I'd like to include:
Buffered retreating Fox Trot. (Just like 1 step)
If it's one step, how is it a Fox Trot? But yeah dashing away could work too against some approaches. If I were to do that, I'd probably follow it up instantly with a pivot grab, that sounds pretty sweet :)

And thanks for the positive responses guys, I appreciate it.

And yeah double post sry, at least it's my thread :p
 

Z1GMA

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
5,523
Location
Sweden
If it's one step, how is it a Fox Trot?
Hmm.. I don't know if there's a name for running one step.

But yeah dashing away could work too against some approaches. If I were to do that, I'd probably follow it up instantly with a pivot grab, that sounds pretty sweet :)
Yeah.
But, basicly I just think running back one step is better than rolling back,
(in most cases) since you are ready to take action earlier.
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
Hmm.. I don't know if there's any name for running one step.

Yeah.
But, basicly I just think running back one step is better than rolling back,
(in most cases) since you are ready to take action earlier.
Hmm, probably. Also, you want to try and have an idea of where your opponent is going to end up after their approach. A forward roll might be a good idea in a lot of cases.

Oh yeah, I mentioned this a while back but never started it. I want to get some sort of podcast or skype chat going maybe with Riddle and/or Dazwa since I love stuff like that and I have a mic now.
Let me know if you guys are interested. I'll consider a few others as well. SFP would be good for it too with his technical knowledge of ZSS and the game in general.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
As would I.

Snakeee, IMO the dash away after dsmash is -the- best option in many matchups. Why? Because most people think they can punish dsmash on shield. It looks like a move that would be laggy, so they try to punish it, not knowing they're really frame trapped.

The only matchup that can really punish us hard for dsmash if you don't space perfectly is DDD, because his 6 frame long ranged grab can compete with dsmash for range, and will super armor a jab. The only safe escape in that matchup if you spaced poorly is buffer a down b away.

However, in many other matchups, you have really nice punishes opened up if you opponent thinks they can punish a dsmash. Think snake for example. You dsmash his shield, what's he gonna do? Unless they're totally familiar with the matchup, they will probably grab OOS, or more likely drop shield ftilt if you spaced it decently. Drop shield ftilt is 11 frames, giving you 6 frames to dash away. You should be out of his range if you buffered it, and now he's whiffing while you're doing a pivot side b (much safer than side b is normally, because they will almost never be able to PS a side b after shielding a dsmash, and will hit through spot dodge or forward roll), a pivot grab, or a true pivot dsmash (see at 0:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c )

Dsmash is stupidly good on the ground, you just have to get it out in the first place, but if you can do that you should not be getting punished except in very specific matchups or if you made the wrong read afterwards.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
Hmm, probably. Also, you want to try and have an idea of where your opponent is going to end up after their approach. A forward roll might be a good idea in a lot of cases.

Oh yeah, I mentioned this a while back but never started it. I want to get some sort of podcast or skype chat going maybe with Riddle and/or Dazwa since I love stuff like that and I have a mic now.
Let me know if you guys are interested. I'll consider a few others as well. SFP would be good for it too with his technical knowledge of ZSS and the game in general.
I would like to do this.
I has a mic too.
I even got Skype when you mentioned it the first time, and have never used it. XD

your character has no options ever and youre all awful at this game
ZSS 2gud.
MM at #5?
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
4,503
Location
Dexters Laboratory
I would like to do this.
I has a mic too.
I even got Skype when you mentioned it the first time, and have never used it. XD



ZSS 2gud.
MM at #5?
all trolling aside i wanted to mm you but you didnt go to apex. im moving to europe in...... 11 hours but if i hit up another national during winter/spring/summer when im home from school vacation i wouuld love to :D
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
all trolling aside i wanted to mm you but you didnt go to apex. im moving to europe in...... 11 hours but if i hit up another national during winter/spring/summer when im home from school vacation i wouuld love to :D
Sadface...
Oh wells.
Enjoy EU~
 

B.A.M.

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
1,538
Location
Fullerton, CA
NNID
Bambatta
pivot grab with ZSS owns alot of landings especially during the low percent games. A local ZSS of our uses that when people fear a buffered uair and what not. Again like Snakee said, it is awesome for taking on beginning of approaches ie: dash. Definitely isnt like the ultimate grab, but abusing is length and utilizing it sparingly produces some great results.

I mean alot of people are just initially conditioned to shield or space attacks at that particular range. The grab should definitely have a staple in ZSS game. No character can live without it.

Oh and when it starts getting your opponent enough, they start spot dodging as attack doesnt beat your grab due to its range (breaks the rock paper scissors game) and thats where foxtrot to bait the grab and dash attack locks or dsmash give joy.

Its funny NickRiddle how you and X (sonic main) learned to simply buffer escapes; which made a ton of things alot more viable. Im glad people are realizing it now at least. I can wait to see more of you ZSS mains tearing it up! You guys play an awesome character. Keep at it!
 
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