Now we're getting somewhere. I can agree shield out of dash will work occasionally.
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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Uncle
- Start date
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
It's Falcon's best defensive option for approaching.
lol defensive falcons.
Lets face it though, at a professional level, Falcon isn't going to be able to do **** without abusing his grab game, especially not against Bowser. Shield pressuring with spaced back airs are probably Falcon's safest aerial approach against Bowser, mainly because of it's range. Neutral air isn't bad either if the player's good at spacing with it.
Fair, Dair, Uair ;; Bowser can punish each of them way too easily. Outspacing Bowser is difficult enough for Falcon, so even trying to use those aerials will get him punished by a grab at the very least.
So, while Bowser's grounded, the safest things are:
-Shield out of Dash.
-Bair
-Nair
-Up tilt
-Grab
-Jab
Falcon could probably up+B out of shield if Bowser doesn't react with a grab when he does a dash -> shield. That also depends on how close he gets to Bowser with the shield though.
lol defensive falcons.
Lets face it though, at a professional level, Falcon isn't going to be able to do **** without abusing his grab game, especially not against Bowser. Shield pressuring with spaced back airs are probably Falcon's safest aerial approach against Bowser, mainly because of it's range. Neutral air isn't bad either if the player's good at spacing with it.
Fair, Dair, Uair ;; Bowser can punish each of them way too easily. Outspacing Bowser is difficult enough for Falcon, so even trying to use those aerials will get him punished by a grab at the very least.
So, while Bowser's grounded, the safest things are:
-Shield out of Dash.
-Bair
-Nair
-Up tilt
-Grab
-Jab
Falcon could probably up+B out of shield if Bowser doesn't react with a grab when he does a dash -> shield. That also depends on how close he gets to Bowser with the shield though.
NAir is not safe, Bowser can easily fortress OoS against it. I haven't faced any falcons that space with BAir against a grounded Bowser (I've seen it done when I'm in the air). I'm going more off on a theory here but BAir seems too laggy to try to use against grounded people, it looks like I can FTilt or maybe Jab a shielded one.
You can do something else besides going for a dash grab. You can wear the shield down by faking approaches enough to a point where Dash -> USmash will poke through. I've seen it done many times on a friend's learning Dedede.
And you should consider why I said it's 6:4 in the same post I said "shut down". It's because Bowser needs a lead to do anything like that. Captain Falcon can also use his better mobility to make it hard for Bowser to hit him.
You can do something else besides going for a dash grab. You can wear the shield down by faking approaches enough to a point where Dash -> USmash will poke through. I've seen it done many times on a friend's learning Dedede.
And you should consider why I said it's 6:4 in the same post I said "shut down". It's because Bowser needs a lead to do anything like that. Captain Falcon can also use his better mobility to make it hard for Bowser to hit him.
B!squick
Smash Master
I'll even make use of Firebreath against Falcon. His mobility makes it hard to properly space, but any projectile that isn't Ness's PK Fire is worth using against someone with no projectile especially.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Oh, absolutely. I'm just stating the options Falcon has that are potentially safe. A match isn't going to consistently revolve around those physics though.
First Hit Nair is pretty predictable, so I don't really see Falcon even using it in this match-up. But a normal Nair approach? It's extremely underrated. Even with Bowser's OoS options, the shield grabs are the main problem. Since all of Falcon's (decent) aerials auto-cancel, chances are Falcon could just buffer a shield against his OoS options if Bowser is even five frames off. Well, maybe not that low, but it's strict.
Falcon's Bair is good in just about any match-up. Bowser can out range it, but its his best aerial option for spacing and repeated pressuring. Comes out fast, low cool down time, auto cancels, decent range;; I actually spam it with Falcon in this match-up a LOT.
The mobility definitely plays a large factor here too. Seriously, without the mobility and auto-canceling, Falcon wouldn't even be worth using in this game. All his other options are pretty bad if you can't mix them up with those two. lol.
Also, wow. Don't use fire breath against a good Falcon. He might not have any projectiles, but you'd be leaving yourself open for a grab, or worse. Falcon can dash -> grab while the fire breath animation is ending. IIRC, Raptor Boost could be used against it too. Not sure if that one's guaranteed though.
Using it while he's recovering would be alright. But even the Toon Link / Falcon MU is considered close to 50:50 because his opposition to projectile games. That was just stated by some of the professional TLs though. -shrugs-
First Hit Nair is pretty predictable, so I don't really see Falcon even using it in this match-up. But a normal Nair approach? It's extremely underrated. Even with Bowser's OoS options, the shield grabs are the main problem. Since all of Falcon's (decent) aerials auto-cancel, chances are Falcon could just buffer a shield against his OoS options if Bowser is even five frames off. Well, maybe not that low, but it's strict.
Falcon's Bair is good in just about any match-up. Bowser can out range it, but its his best aerial option for spacing and repeated pressuring. Comes out fast, low cool down time, auto cancels, decent range;; I actually spam it with Falcon in this match-up a LOT.
The mobility definitely plays a large factor here too. Seriously, without the mobility and auto-canceling, Falcon wouldn't even be worth using in this game. All his other options are pretty bad if you can't mix them up with those two. lol.
Also, wow. Don't use fire breath against a good Falcon. He might not have any projectiles, but you'd be leaving yourself open for a grab, or worse. Falcon can dash -> grab while the fire breath animation is ending. IIRC, Raptor Boost could be used against it too. Not sure if that one's guaranteed though.
Using it while he's recovering would be alright. But even the Toon Link / Falcon MU is considered close to 50:50 because his opposition to projectile games. That was just stated by some of the professional TLs though. -shrugs-
B!squick
Smash Master
Toon Link has vastly different projectiles and if you're using Friebreath right you're poking from max distance with it. I know Falcon's fast, but I don't know if he's fast enough to dash grab that. And against an aerial Falcon it would be splendid.
And there's always B Reversal Firebreath mindgames.
And there's always B Reversal Firebreath mindgames.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
At least use the firebreath when Falcon's offstage, it kills a lot of his options.
Now we all know that Bowser is f..estively plump, which means all of Falcon's SH aerials are viable in this matchup. Because they autocancel. Yes, even the knee (which by the way is Falcon's longest lingering hitbox).
Now we all know that Bowser is f..estively plump, which means all of Falcon's SH aerials are viable in this matchup. Because they autocancel. Yes, even the knee (which by the way is Falcon's longest lingering hitbox).
BigLord
Smash Lord
^I'll add to that and say that you should ONLY use the firebreath when Falcon's offstage. If you're unlucky, you'll get yourself a knee to the face (or the back, if you turn around for some reason).
By the way, this thread just got a lot more interesting without all the trolls and the jokes about Bowser/Captain Falcon, lol. I'm enjoying the read.
By the way, this thread just got a lot more interesting without all the trolls and the jokes about Bowser/Captain Falcon, lol. I'm enjoying the read.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Just be smart about it. Use Fire Breath as a spacing tool, not a damage racking tool.
You'll be punished less with bursts.
You'll be punished less with bursts.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
The Toon Link statement was just an addition to the "but any projectile that isn't Ness's PK Fire is worth using against someone with no projectile especially". I know that Fire Breath is a whole different story, but just saying that in the 'Falcon vs Projectile' defense.
Fire Breath is far too risky against Falcon. Like it was said, his mobility makes it difficult, regardless of how you space it. For such low amounts of damage, it's not worth keeping yourself open against Falcon for. While Falcon's recovering is a whole different story though. Since his recovery stalls for a bit, then goes upward, Falcon will have trouble getting past it unless he DI's up through the fire breath and to the ledge (or Reverse Falcon Dive under a stage's ledge to recover). Falcon Dive isn't treated like most attacks, it has no hit boxes to protect him unless it latches onto something. Which is why Fire Breath is decent against him. lolol
Fire Breath is far too risky against Falcon. Like it was said, his mobility makes it difficult, regardless of how you space it. For such low amounts of damage, it's not worth keeping yourself open against Falcon for. While Falcon's recovering is a whole different story though. Since his recovery stalls for a bit, then goes upward, Falcon will have trouble getting past it unless he DI's up through the fire breath and to the ledge (or Reverse Falcon Dive under a stage's ledge to recover). Falcon Dive isn't treated like most attacks, it has no hit boxes to protect him unless it latches onto something. Which is why Fire Breath is decent against him. lolol
MrEh
Smash Hero
It does matter. Some characters can Di into you extremely quickly, and hit you out of the fire.
You don't understand, it literally doesn't matter against Captain Falcon. He doesn't have an aerial fast enough to smash DI against fire and hit bowser with it.
I've tried.
He's better off trying to jump or DI'ing away. You can stop him from jumping out by angling the fire up, but that makes horizontal SDI escape easier (not that it matters, he can't hit you with anything).
I've tried.
He's better off trying to jump or DI'ing away. You can stop him from jumping out by angling the fire up, but that makes horizontal SDI escape easier (not that it matters, he can't hit you with anything).
lordhelmet
Smash Master
lordhelmet
Smash Master
I'm not gonna research it, but I've done it enough to know it works.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Lord Helmet's right. Up+B does work against it too. It's ridiculously easy to pull off since mashing up+B close to Bowser just keeps canceling the Falcon Dive with the fire until he's positioned at a point where it won't hit him.
You've gotta keep in mind, when using Falcon Dive, Falcon stops in midair for a few moments without moving at all, then he goes upward. He won't fall back down into the fire's hitbox if you keep mashing it.
Plus, Bowser's a large target, the up+B will reposition itself when it connects.
You've gotta keep in mind, when using Falcon Dive, Falcon stops in midair for a few moments without moving at all, then he goes upward. He won't fall back down into the fire's hitbox if you keep mashing it.
Plus, Bowser's a large target, the up+B will reposition itself when it connects.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Yeah, directing it upward makes it difficult to connect.
Just tested it as well.
But in that case, Falcon could DI onto the ground and hit with something else depending on the strength of the fire. Or just keep using up+B to get out of the fire breath. He might take about 3-5% maximum from it, rather he gets the attack form of it or not.
Just tested it as well.
But in that case, Falcon could DI onto the ground and hit with something else depending on the strength of the fire. Or just keep using up+B to get out of the fire breath. He might take about 3-5% maximum from it, rather he gets the attack form of it or not.
B!squick
Smash Master
Anyway we slice it, this is one of those lol match ups. 55/45 Bowser to win seems appropriate, I think.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
55:45, Bowser's favor seems about right. That's what most of our board was thinking as well.
XtricksterX
Smash Cadet
timing with his fire and smash attack can lead bowser to victory
B!squick
Smash Master
What you say?!
Link now.
Link now.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
I feel like if I post what I think, it probably wouldn't really seem right considering Ixis has played Izaw and Vex has played Kirin and stuff.
IDK, I honestly feel that powershielding does really well. Bowser can do a lot to Link via grab release, so getting a kill won't ever be difficult. Although it seems easy, from what I see it's usually not the case -.-
Definitely in Bowser's favor though. 60:40?
IDK, I honestly feel that powershielding does really well. Bowser can do a lot to Link via grab release, so getting a kill won't ever be difficult. Although it seems easy, from what I see it's usually not the case -.-
Definitely in Bowser's favor though. 60:40?
B!squick
Smash Master
Shield the spam.
Profit.
:D
Oh yeah, added pics for Falcon and Link. Found one while looking for the other.
Profit.
:D
Oh yeah, added pics for Falcon and Link. Found one while looking for the other.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Don't get shot.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Matchup is even imo.
Wafflez
Smash Journeyman
I'd say 50:50.
I play against ~Kyte on a regular basis and quite often the matches go either way. Not exactly too reputable, but it's the only Link v. Bowser MU I see on a regular basis.
Pretty much, Bowser has trouble dealing with spam and Zair, and Link has troubles up close dealing with Koopa Klaw and grab release crap.
Pretty much 90% of the time, Link stays back and spams, gets a few % in on Bowser if any at all. Bowser makes his way to Link, and whoever deals the first blow pretty much gets a solid 30-40% on the opponent until one of them backs off. Then repeat.
This match-up is so close and balanced in a lot of respects that I do whole-heartedly believe it is completely up to the player's skill. Link can do some mean stuff to Bowser at a distance and Bowser can do some mean stuff to Link off-stage. And both can do some really nasty stuff to one another up close.
Solid 50:50. I really can't see this going in one favor or another.
I play against ~Kyte on a regular basis and quite often the matches go either way. Not exactly too reputable, but it's the only Link v. Bowser MU I see on a regular basis.
Pretty much, Bowser has trouble dealing with spam and Zair, and Link has troubles up close dealing with Koopa Klaw and grab release crap.
Pretty much 90% of the time, Link stays back and spams, gets a few % in on Bowser if any at all. Bowser makes his way to Link, and whoever deals the first blow pretty much gets a solid 30-40% on the opponent until one of them backs off. Then repeat.
This match-up is so close and balanced in a lot of respects that I do whole-heartedly believe it is completely up to the player's skill. Link can do some mean stuff to Bowser at a distance and Bowser can do some mean stuff to Link off-stage. And both can do some really nasty stuff to one another up close.
Solid 50:50. I really can't see this going in one favor or another.
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
Just also want to point out that link DOES NOT need to approach for getting a kill. He can spam until he gets a BAL(Boomerang arrow lock) or bombranglock(you gets hit by rang wind hitbox and bomb at the same time) and after that get a slightly charged spin attack or fsmash or dair or whatever now is fresh XD, bowser also happens to be really easy to bombstool, or chain a zair into a fair or fsmash or dsmash. No need to risk it haha.
I a link main can spam good powersheilding stuff wont be that easy since you wont really know what will come, bombs aren't really that easy to powersheild, arrowcancels is a frame 2 hit-box, a good spammer link will know how to maximize arrowcancels to make them fly out of his crouch every now and then(Kirin for example).
With that said we also have ways to deal with grab shenanigans, bomb in hand as often as possible is the medicine, and NO this will not limit link that much. Links best OoS option is a bomb throw, link can still fsmash, zair, do aerials and use his projectiles. Only good moves he looses is the utilt, jab and Dsmash actually.
A random note, for some reason I feel that boozers firebreathing is really ****ing with links spacing, it has perfect range, it hits exactly at links prefered spacing and is speedy enough to catch you off guard. I dunno I dont play bowser.
I guess link is pretty screwed when you get a grab in as link is with the rest of the cast.
Cant say our strategies are water proof, but you need to read links next move to get through his spam. I say its very close to even maybe slightly tilted in link favor maybe slightly tilted in boozers.
I a link main can spam good powersheilding stuff wont be that easy since you wont really know what will come, bombs aren't really that easy to powersheild, arrowcancels is a frame 2 hit-box, a good spammer link will know how to maximize arrowcancels to make them fly out of his crouch every now and then(Kirin for example).
With that said we also have ways to deal with grab shenanigans, bomb in hand as often as possible is the medicine, and NO this will not limit link that much. Links best OoS option is a bomb throw, link can still fsmash, zair, do aerials and use his projectiles. Only good moves he looses is the utilt, jab and Dsmash actually.
A random note, for some reason I feel that boozers firebreathing is really ****ing with links spacing, it has perfect range, it hits exactly at links prefered spacing and is speedy enough to catch you off guard. I dunno I dont play bowser.
I guess link is pretty screwed when you get a grab in as link is with the rest of the cast.
Cant say our strategies are water proof, but you need to read links next move to get through his spam. I say its very close to even maybe slightly tilted in link favor maybe slightly tilted in boozers.
What they^ said. Bowser's big, we're going spam and Zair. Firebreath's annoying but Link has great DI. When bowser's recovering low Link can arrow or boomerang down and make him loose forward momentum.
Battlefield is a good CP vs Link.
Battlefield is a good CP vs Link.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Bowser should ban Halberd in this matchup.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I think Bowser has a slight advantage, even if Link spams like crazy, Bowser's rewards for getting in close is pretty good.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Easier time killing and can platform camp.
B!squick
Smash Master
One thing that's scary is if you're up in the air. Then Link could bait ADs by throwing Bombs up in the air and finish Bowser with a properly timed UAir or DAir. Nothing Bowser has beats UAir.
Ixisnaugus
Smash Journeyman
I haven't played a top Link offline since Izaw so my knowledge of the MU is really stale, but I'd say its pretty even or maybe very slightly in favor of Link. It's been mentioned before but that Zair is truly a savior for Link in this MU.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Zair is concentrated gay.