A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[B!squick]

Well, Bowser's list of options isn't very long, so....

 

[MrEh]

Good Bowsers only UpB when we know it will hit.

Can't expect to punish something that we won't do.

 

[Cassius.]

Bowser's list of options?

If it's within UpB range and it's a slow move, we upb.

If the character's worth grabbing, grab. I'm not UpB'ing and then moving myself towards the enemy just to get some measly 4%. I want to PUNISH them. I'm moving backwards when I fortress anyway. Backwards as in away from the enemy.

Anyway, if UpB/Grab don't work, Jab/FTilt/anything that reaches.

Oh, I forgot to mention klaw.

If all else fails, use common sense and don't do anything. <_<

That UpB'ing mindlessly **** was so 2008. Unless you're playing with a complete moron that doesn't know what the words "Bowser", "Brawl" and "Shield" mean...then it's ok.

I like doing empty klaws when I know I'm not going to hit anything. Klawhopping has become a bore and I like...never do it. It's kinda useless now besides a ledge option or needing to get over something when you have no jumps. Bouncing around is useless lol

Of course, I'm pretty sure everyone realized that. It just pains me to see Bowsers (some on WiFi, some not) randomly use Bowser and literally just hop the whole match. lol

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I like doing empty klaws when I know I'm not going to hit anything. Klawhopping has become a bore and I like...never do it. It's kinda useless now besides a ledge option or needing to get over something when you have no jumps. Bouncing around is useless lol

Vex would like to disagree with this!

 

[Cassius.]

Limit would like to disagree as well after giving it 30 seconds a minute of thought and proofreading

self disagreement is boss

I played on training mode yesterday Klawing around like a nutjob and I thoroughly disagree with what I said yesterday.

Too lazy to edit my sentence though.

 

[Zigsta]

PX and I have played this MU a little bit. It's definitely not easy as you'd expect. :/

 

[Flayl]

Actually after watching your vids Zigsta I'm even more convinced it's AT LEAST 6:4 for Bowser.

 

[Zigsta]

In Bowser's favor, Flayl?

Hmm, interesting.

I definitely favor PT over Bowser against Ganon, but then again, I've played against Ganon a lot more with PT, haha.

What exactly in the videos convinced you it's at least a 6:4?

 

[Vermanubis]

I agree with Zigsta. Bowser is an ostensibly easy target until you remember how easy it is for him to pressure you with klaws, play keep away, and grab release you. To be honest, the thing that keeps this MU so tame in comparison to others with Ganon is the fact that Bowser is SO easy to land a hit on and gerudo tech-chase because of his pathetic roll.

One of Ganon's biggest banes is smaller characters, so he can't do certain things with fair and bair like he'd like to. With Bowser he can, but Bowser brings something just as good, if not better to the table with his klaws, fortress and impenetrable defense game.

Pros of the match-up (for Ganon)

-Bowser's an easy target. Susceptible to FH dairs, fair baits, bair OoS and dangerous gerudo tech-chases. But that brings up an interesting point that Bowser's extremely short roll make it so Ganon can't do a low-angled fsmash if Bowser rolls in.

-Gerudo works wonders on Bowser. It pretty much breaks his defense game insofar as rendering his shield almost useless.

-Ganon actually has SOME (although not terribly useful or helpful) OoS options against Bowser due to his immense girth.

-Bowser's landings are risky.

Cons for this match-up (for Ganon)

-Bowser's koopa klaw acts the same way Gerudo does, except a LOT safer, quicker and versatile. Almost every time Ganon messes up, he'll take 18%.

-Truth be told, Gerudo is the only thing that can really get IN to Bowser as Ganon. Bowser has too many OoS options to really do much of anything as Ganon safely. Ganon pretty much relies on his Gerudo to start the flame and keep it burning until Bowser can get out and return the match back to a status quo.

-Bowser's hard as hell to gimp. Dair has to be landed almost perfectly so the fortress hitbox doesn't interrupt him and tipman the same.

-Bowser can kill Ganon a lot easier than Ganon can kill Bowser.

So, in general, thanks to Bowser being freaking humongous and having limited aerial options, once Ganon gets inside, it's pain time. But Bowser isn't incapable of escaping with anything more than mild difficulty. When he does, you're going to have a rough time getting back in. Ganon has limited options against Bowser, so Bowsers will know what to expect. But the good news is that those options are unusually effective.

My best advice for Bowser users is simply to maintain your distance. Ganon can be baited pretty easily with the prospect of what a successful Gerudo will yield, and punishing him is laughably easy. Bowser outranges, out-prioritizes and outcamps Ganon pretty hard. Never forsake the klaw, fortress or grab-release. I agee that it's 60:40 for Bowser.

 

[Cassius.]

That's my boy Verm :D(who I didn't know had an SWF account wtf)

TBH the general idea is that the matchup IS in Bowser's favor, so a 5 point difference won't really mean much between 55 and 60. I'd personally like to say 60-40 but I can compromise with 55 because it's just numbers, lol. I love MU's where Bowser can actually camp. It makes me smile just watching Bowser sit there.

The only problem is when Ganon has that lead...then you're forced to approach and Ganon enjoys making Bowser work (no innuendos) because when he screws up, it's tech-chase time :3

 

[Vermanubis]

LIMIIITTT

Yeah, I just don't post much. Everyone usually seems to have everything covered, so I don't usually see much need for my input.

What do I know, though, I'm just a Gannub.

 

[B!squick]

-Bowser's hard as hell to gimp. Dair has to be landed almost perfectly so the fortress hitbox doesn't interrupt him and tipman the same.

Lies. UAir ***** Fortress every time.

 

[Zigsta]

Lies. UAir ***** Fortress every time.

This. Ganon crushes Bowser offstage with reverse upair.

 

[Vermanubis]

Lies. UAir ***** Fortress every time.

Only if Bowser is far below Ganon. Unless Bowser is below Ganon's feet on the ledge, tipman won't work and you'll just outproritize us.

 

[B!squick]

This. Ganon crushes Bowser offstage with reverse upair.

Which is why I think it's closer to 55 than 60 'cause Ganon has Murder Choke AND the worlds greatest UAir. If everything else about Ganon wasn't so terrible this could easily be in his favor.

Only if Bowser is far below Ganon. Unless Bowser is below Ganon's feet on the ledge, tipman won't work and you'll just outproritize us.

I've never seen Fortress out prioritize UAir. And I played ALOT of games verse TP.

 

[Godzillabr]

a good bowser will keep DI up almost all the time, so the only attack that'll give ganon the chance to abuse Uair is the Ftilt, that dont have much range and priority...also at high %

 

[B!squick]

Don't forget Jab and even UAir to abuse UAir. All Bowser needs to do is be in the air and you can easily be tipmaned offstage and then again for the gimp.

Oh yeah, it's important to remember that Ganon's UpB has, like, no hitstun and no knockback.

 

[MrEh]

Uair only wins if you're doing it wrong.

 

[Godzillabr]

and jab with DI up dont work to Uair offstage, except at very high %...something very rare in this match up.

 

[Vermanubis]

Uair only wins if you're doing it wrong.

Agreed.

If Ganon is on the ledge a tipman will not hit Bowser unless Bowser is, like I said, below Ganon's feet. It's Ganon's foot that has the priority. Up to his toes, there's not nearly as much.

 

[Clai]

Actually after watching your vids Zigsta I'm even more convinced it's AT LEAST 6:4 for Bowser.

Wait, wait, what? How does those vids give the impression that the matchup's better for Bowser?

I agree with Zigsta. Bowser is an ostensibly easy target until you remember how easy it is for him to pressure you with klaws, play keep away, and grab release you. To be honest, the thing that keeps this MU so tame in comparison to others with Ganon is the fact that Bowser is SO easy to land a hit on and gerudo tech-chase because of his pathetic roll.

Pros of the match-up (for Ganon)

-Bowser's an easy target. Susceptible to FH dairs, fair baits, bair OoS and dangerous gerudo tech-chases. But that brings up an interesting point that Bowser's extremely short roll make it so Ganon can't do a low-angled fsmash if Bowser rolls in.

-Gerudo works wonders on Bowser. It pretty much breaks his defense game insofar as rendering his shield almost useless.

-Ganon actually has SOME (although not terribly useful or helpful) OoS options against Bowser due to his immense girth.

-Bowser's landings are risky.

Agreed on all of these cons. I'll add that if you can get the timing to powershield Bowser's GUA consistently (from my testing, Bowser's GUA was one of the easiest attacks to powershield), then Gerudo's even more effective against Bowser.

Cons for this match-up (for Ganon)

-Bowser's koopa klaw acts the same way Gerudo does, except a LOT safer, quicker and versatile. Almost every time Ganon messes up, he'll take 18%.

Agreed, but the point is that Ganondorf has enough options that he can stay generally safe without risking Bowser's effective punishing methods. FH Dairs, SH Bairs, FH Nair and any form of Uair will keep Ganondorf safe from Bowser's grab strategies.

-Truth be told, Gerudo is the only thing that can really get IN to Bowser as Ganon. Bowser has too many OoS options to really do much of anything as Ganon safely. Ganon pretty much relies on his Gerudo to start the flame and keep it burning until Bowser can get out and return the match back to a status quo.

Again, Ganon can play keep-away until it's safe to get inside. If Bowser wants to camp Ganon, Ganon can camp right back.

-Bowser's hard as hell to gimp. Dair has to be landed almost perfectly so the fortress hitbox doesn't interrupt him and tipman the same.

Nah, broski. When properly spaced, Tipman totally wrecks Bowser's Fortress. Of course, if Ganon's not at the right position to gimp Bowser with a Tipman or a Murder Stomp, he can just hit Bowser further offstage until Bowser's in the right position to get gimped. So if Bowser's not gimped offstage, he's gonna get harrassed hard.

-Bowser can kill Ganon a lot easier than Ganon can kill Bowser.

Debateable. Ganondorf can actually set-up his kill-moves pretty reliably, especially with Gerudo tech chasing. I'd only say Bowser has a slight kill advantage on Ganon, but only slight.

My best advice for Bowser users is simply to maintain your distance. Ganon can be baited pretty easily with the prospect of what a successful Gerudo will yield, and punishing him is laughably easy. Bowser outranges, out-prioritizes and outcamps Ganon pretty hard. Never forsake the klaw, fortress or grab-release. I agee that it's 60:40 for Bowser.

Smart Ganon players will know when they're getting baited and they're going to maintain their distance until they can see the opportunity to use Flame Choke with reasonable chances of success (as in when Bowser's not in position to easily punish Ganon). Bowser's going to have difficulty approaching Ganon when he Uair/Bair spaces properly. Both characters have heavy rewards for punishing, but getting that reward is far from easy to obtain.

 

[Vermanubis]

Sorry, Clai, but I'm a bit lazy at the moment, so I'm just going to reply directly to the points I disagree with.

1) I misspoke. Bowser isn't hard as hell to gimp. He is actually very easy to gimp. But as you stated, it's somewhat difficult to get him in a position to gimp. If we're talking about him being very far away and barely making the ledge, then that's not what I was referring to. Bowser's recovery isn't special enough to require anything but an edgeguard if he's far enough away to be in optimal position for a stomp or tipman.

2) Bowser's kill advantage lies in his grab-released ftilt primarily. That and the danger he poses to you upon landing, and he can get you in the air at high percents very easily.

3) I think Ganon camping Bowser is a little idealistic. Neither can really approach each other with an acceptable success rate, but Bowser definitely has the approach/punishment advantage, which ultimately boils down to him having the advantage in that area, since a status quo has to be broken, and since it is indeterminable who will break it, we have to apply the question to who can reap higher rewards if the status quo is broken.

 

[B!squick]

Uair only wins if you're doing it wrong.

The only time it worked was when I DJed and Fortressed really fast into or over TP to get on stage before he could actually get a chance to use UAir.

I seriously don't like this match-up.

 

[MrEh]

2) Bowser's kill advantage lies in his grab-released ftilt primarily. That and the danger he poses to you upon landing, and he can get you in the air at high percents very easily.

Grab release Ftilt is poo. No reason for him to do that when he can just chaingrab Ganon to the ledge and follow up accordingly. (ftilt will only kill at like, 140% fresh anyway.)

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Grab release Klaw is superior to most of his grab releases. Chaingrab to ledge into Klaw does like, probably 30%, depends where the chaingrab starts.

 

[Flayl]

@ Zigsta Clai: Sorry, haven't had the time to elaborate until now:

Basically what it boils down to in watching videos is evaluating the decisions made versus the options available.

Zigsta:
- Didn't use grab-release klaw or chaingrab PhantomX.
- Used firebreath several times at close range, and when he caught PhantomX in it he made the worst possible decision (at that distance) which is to stop. Unless you're using short burts of fire as a spacing tool, you chould angle the fire upward (not completely, it's hard to explain the best angle, just develop a feel for it) and force Ganon to DI horizontally out. Even if you estimate the time of his escape wrong and he hits you with a quick attack you'll come out on top %-wise.
- He went for Full hop NAir OoS which is outclassed by shield drop UTilt or even jump canceled USmash. If you need something to punish on a platform above you for example, use FAir OoS, NAir OoS doesn't have enough horizontal range.
- Fell a LOT for the falling -> flame choke maneuver. As Limit says, you'll severely limit Ganon's options if you just position yourself and play it safe. As bad as Bowser's spotdodge is, it beats this on reaction (as long as you expect the Ganon to use it of course).
- Beats out Ganon's aerial flame choke with aerial klaw once and then tries other attacks that don't work.
- Tried to chase PhantomX in the air even though he had no chance of hitting him.
- Tried to take on Ganon head on in the air (by this I mean on the same vertical coordinates). Bowser's aerials suck man, they very rarely beat anybody head on. They're good for punishing and suprise KO's but do not work as an approach or as a tool to help you return to the stage.
- Klaw hopped into really bad positions, the only time you should be klaw hopping into a shorter distance than aerial klaw's range is when you're trying to cross-up. Zigsta even got USmash'd because of this. Basically it boils down to spacing Klaw better.
- Didn't DI up as much as he should have.

The bolded ones are what I feel are the main reasons why Zigsta lost the matches and if it weren't for them I feel he probably could've won all games.

I'm not saying PhantomX always made the right decisions, just better ones overall. From what I saw most of the damage he did to Zigsta wasn't from approaches or even punishing lag. It was from reads. Ganon's only positive attribute is that he can do a LOT of damage from reads.
The whole playing safe thing denies him that.


Excuse the bias, hopefully my point comes across anyway.

 

[Zigsta]

Very good points, Flayl. I watched this set three times, and I agree with everything mentioned.

Didn't know about the chaingrab or GR Klaw, but I'll practice that.

Thanks for input.

 

[Flayl]

I was expecting you'd raise more of a ruckus, haha. I can be fairly critical in spite of my own clumsiness.

I just really don't want to think about a world where Bowser goes even with ganon

 

[MrEh]

Bowser might as well lose to everyone. lol

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser might as well lose to everyone. lol

This ain't Melee.

 

[Zigsta]

I was expecting you'd raise more of a ruckus, haha. I can be fairly critical in spite of my own clumsiness.

I just really don't want to think about a world where Bowser goes even with ganon

Criticism is very encouraging--just means there's a lot of room for improvement! :D

 

[MrEh]

This ain't Melee.

Everything should be like Smash 64.

That way, everyone loses.

 

[Cassius.]

Umm...I'm not trying to speed up our boards progress, but who's the "art guy" of the Bowser boards?

Aka we probably should get to updating the picture seeing as how we have a ratio for every character whether he/she/it 's been rediscussed or not.

And what exactly are we going to do after Ganon? Rediscuss?

 

[Flayl]

Guys, we need to get the summaries for our matchups in order. Here's how I propose doing it:

{Character}
Ratio:{Bowser:Opponent}
Secondary:{"Unnecessary" for ratios over 35:65, "Characters" otherwise}
What to look out for: {Main approach/defense/camping tools, chaingrabs/locks}
How they will KO you: {Kill moves with KO %, gimping moves}
Best spacing zone: {Grab/Fortress range, Jab range, FTilt range, Aerial Klaw range}
Grab-Relase
- For damage: {chaingrab + most damaging release option}
- For the KO: {most powerful release options}
Firebreath: {Great for appropriate situations, Sparingly as a mixup, Short burst only, Avoid completely}
Stages
- Strike: {Neutral Stages to Strike}
- Ban: {Stage to ban, account for both conservative and liberal stage lists}
- Pick: {Best and 2nd best stage to choose from, account for both conservative and liberal stage lists}
Link to discussion: {link to either the beginning of the discussion or the most detailed post}

We should do this and update the ratios.

 

[MrEh]

Gotta wait til Jay pops in.

 

[B!squick]

Thank you for refinding that, Flayl.

Anyway, I had planned on moving on sooner than this, but then people started discussing so I didn't intrude. And despite my own personal failings against TP, Flayl has shown me the light. 60/40 Bowser's advantage(!).

So I guess it's rediscussion time. Who do we do first?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Metaknight Obv

 

[B!squick]

Ugh... MK it is.

 

[MrEh]

Don't get hit by the Nado. Don't get gimped. Grab him. (I honestly can't say more then this)

35-65

 

[B!squick]

Match-up is dependent on how much of a *** your opponent is.