A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[B!squick]

hey, would you like me to update the match-up chart pic?

You mean like this?

 

[JOE!]

awwww...I wanted to do it

 

[B!squick]

Check the previous page. The original creater beat you to it, lol.

 

[Bowser King]

You mean like this?

Didn't we agree on Lucas being our first advantage? Not that pointless numbers matter but I thought we all pretty much agreed on it.

-Bowser King

 

[Cassius.]

yeah we did lol

 

[Flayl]

I'm pretty sure Ike is also AT LEAST even. What's going on in that chart?

 

[B!squick]

Don't blame the chart maker, MrEh has it down as 50/50 for Lucas.

I don't want to diss Ike mains since Bowser does get outranged by him and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure it's Bowser's advantage if only slightly.

Whatever, we can rediscuss later. We agreed on anything for Samus?

 

[Bowser King]

Samus isn't very intimidating =/

Zair actually isn't that bad. Shield it/fortress and there you go.

Projectile spam with samus is terrible, close range she's pretty bad (other then a few things). In the air she's fairly good but klaw and fair should be able to take care of her horizantally. Vertically she actually hurts us bad with dair and uptilt, upair etc.

Though just about every char hits bowser hard when he's above them (with the odd exceptions).

I say 50-50 or 45:55 at worst.

-Bowser King

 

[Cassius.]

id say 55-45 us <.< and 50-50 at worst <.<

but i was looking at the new chart, and i noticed DK was 40-60...i always thought he was 45-55...uh someone explain plz O:

 

[B!squick]

Like I said earlier, Xyro is the only Samus I fear. All others are not a problem. I approved of bowser king's message.

@Limit: DK's BAir. That's pretty much the jist of it.

 

[Cassius.]

eh..i suppose that makes sense. i need to play dk's that space BAirs and overuse them at the same time then <.<

uh, who's next on the Koopa Troop Matchups? D:

 

[B!squick]

itsthebigfoot is pretty much our go to guy on the Bowser/DK match up. He knows the most about both characters. I think pretty much he said 60/40 + his reasons and everyone just agreed since he'd be the one to know, lol. I remember him saying if DK spaces his BAirs well and doesn't get greedy with more than 1 at a time he'll have a much easier time than Bowser.

 

[Bowser King]

We should re-discuss matchups later on (since were close to finishing). There are some that I don't agree with and I'm sure there are some others don't agree with either (I mainly disagree with the lower half matchups =/).

-Bowser King

 

[JOE!]

I suggest we moe onto sonic (he's not on the chart <.<)

with his new tier placement so close to us, we may be seeing more of him...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't blame the chart maker, MrEh has it down as 50/50 for Lucas.

I don't want to diss Ike mains since Bowser does get outranged by him and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure it's Bowser's advantage if only slightly.

The chaingrab says otherwise. Losing up to 60% a stock simply hurts too much when both characters have great KOing ability. And given the way it work's I'm near positive we don't have to start at 0%. We might not get quite as many throws in before the Dash Attack, but we can still rack up damage.

 

[B!squick]

The chaingrab says otherwise. Losing up to 60%-

Noooo, stop right there. Kirk himself said later he forgot to account for the awesomeness of Fortress, so it's only to 42%(I think, I'll go go dig up a source) and even then, after 60% the it doesn't work because the knockback is to great. So if the Ike player wants to focus on that early grab, that's fine with me. >.>

a stock simply hurts too much when both characters have great KOing ability. And given the way it work's I'm near positive we don't have to start at 0%. We might not get quite as many throws in before the Dash Attack, but we can still rack up damage.

I highly doubt it'd cost a stock even if you managed it.

EDIT: I found the thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224140

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm not saying it would cost the stock, just that it would defiantly hurt, you can't deny that. And b-throw->dash attack is a true combo on most characters, so fortress shouldn't work......I don't remember Bowser being one of the exceptions. It was like, Sonic, Yoshi, and one or two others that had a funny animation after the bthrow. It's 42%->Dash attack off of Bthrow.

And we don't have to focus on the grab. Focusing on a grab makes you do stupid things. (as I have found out using Bowser VS Lucas >_>. To top it off, I messed up the grab release). It's simply an option which isn't hard to set up with jab->grab, and it's an option that hurts Bowser. And it's obviously not going to tilt the match-up in Bowser's favor.

 

[B!squick]

I read through the thread again and for something that has to start at 0% just knowing about it makes the threat almost nill. Now if this BThrow>Dash Attack thing is a true combo, then that is deffinately something to worry about. But Bowser can grab release Ike aslong as he has stage and I'm pretty sure if you pivot grab the ground breaks it's an infinite (works on MK *shrug*).

So really, both players will be looking for the grab while at the same time trying to avoid the other's. It'll come down to who can space better. And I think Bowser has the edge off stage and in the match up in general.

 

[Flayl]

I read through the thread again and for something that has to start at 0% just knowing about it makes the threat almost nill. Now if this BThrow>Dash Attack thing is a true combo, then that is deffinately something to worry about. But Bowser can grab release Ike aslong as he has stage and I'm pretty sure if you pivot grab the ground breaks it's an infinite (works on MK *shrug*).

So really, both players will be looking for the grab while at the same time trying to avoid the other's. It'll come down to who can space better. And I think Bowser has the edge off stage and in the match up in general.

Ike ground releases a lot farther away than MK. The only 2 things that work on Ike out of a ground release are dash grab and Ftilt. Supposedly Dash -> OverB works but I can't get it to work reliably.

 

[B!squick]

How does Ike release further away than MK?

Lol, nevermind, that's like asking why MK has no bad match ups or why there's tripping.

Guys, back me up in the Ganon boards match up thread. D:

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It doesn't have to start at 0%. When we first start at 0%, we can just run and regrab. By the later %s in range however, Ike has to do a running shield canceled grab. When we don't start at 0%/really close to it, we can just use the running shield canceled grab from the start. We wouldn't get as much out of it, but it's still free damage.

As for the edge off stage: both characters are going to be gimping each other with ease. It's not an true game turning advantage as much as "Who has the most options to screw each other over with ease." Add in the fact Ike outranges Bowser fairly consistently, and I fail to see how Bowser can have the edge.

It's not like I have no clue about Bowser, I do secondary him, and I would like for him to have some advantages, but I just don't see Ike being one of them.

 

[Bowser King]

I don't think it's bowsers advantage. IMO it's safe to say that it's 50-50 or 55-45 Ike at worst case scenario.

I however strongly diagree with Lucas and Ness. There not that bad of a matchup =/

-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

It doesn't have to start at 0%. When we first start at 0%, we can just run and regrab. By the later %s in range however, Ike has to do a running shield canceled grab. When we don't start at 0%/really close to it, we can just use the running shield canceled grab from the start. We wouldn't get as much out of it, but it's still free damage.

As for the edge off stage: both characters are going to be gimping each other with ease. It's not an true game turning advantage as much as "Who has the most options to screw each other over with ease." Add in the fact Ike outranges Bowser fairly consistently, and I fail to see how Bowser can have the edge.

It's not like I have no clue about Bowser, I do secondary him, and I would like for him to have some advantages, but I just don't see Ike being one of them.

Main favortism on both ends, yes?

Alright, Ike recovers vertically, so it's a matter of knocking him far enough away from the stage, right? Bowser has the power as well the FTilt and DTilt to accomplish this. Best situation not considered, Ike's super armor on his UpB wont save him from the damage from Firebreath and if it looks like Ike will make it to ledge, Bowser can just safely sit and do his thing.

Conversely, Bowser has great horizontal air speed and invincibility frames at the start of his UpB. Bowser is also the heaviest character in the game, so killing in either direction (up or sides) will be a more of a problem for Ike than usual. But Ike waiting at the ledge would be just as much as a problem for Bowser as it would be the other way around like I described in the previous paragraph.

It's pretty even all things considered, I think. :/

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike *can* recover horizontally if it's better to do so, like against MK or Marth. Bowser may be one of those situations. QD in, take the firebreath damage and grab the edge as it runs out. I don't know though, I'm the only guy in SA who uses Bowser.

I don't think it's a huge advantage or anything like that, but I feel as if it's bouncing between the 6-4/55-45 range rather then the 55-45/50-50 range. Probably 55-45.

 

[B!squick]

Doesn't QD get stopped by air dodges and enter free fall and whatnot though? And if Ike is high enough to QD onstage then Bowser shouldn't be using the Firebreaths. But either way, Ike would take some damage, yeah. Both characters out range the other at the ledge, it's just a matter of who's grabbing it (i.e.: in the worse...er? position).

As a quick tid bit of info, Bowser has faster attacks than Captain Falcon (in terms of when the hit boxes first come out, not overall longevity, obviously), if that accounts for anything. >.>

So why do think it's 60/40? Is this on range and the not likely to happen 0~42%-60% chain grab alone or what?

 

[Flayl]

There's a reason Ike is where he is on the tier list despite him outranging pretty much the whole cast. Him outranging Bowser is not a novelty. I seriously disagree with the notion that Ike has an advantage, but I've learned better than to try to persuade others online.

 

[B!squick]

Hey, I've been surprised before. Pikachu is only 60/40. x_x

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There's a reason Ike is where he is on the tier list despite him outranging pretty much the whole cast.

Because nobody uses him, and the few people that do are starting to leave Brawl. Kirk hardly plays anymore. I haven't seen Silven outside of Brawl+ for a LONG time. Ussi basically quite. Yagami Light is AWAL. A_B's hometown has all but stopped playing Brawl. Ninjalink doesn't bust out Ike in tournaments. If somebody like Reflex suddenly picked up Ike, he would fly up 5 spaces next tier list, because it's how it works apparently. One good player winning tournaments with a character below C tier = sudden climb in tier list because apparently "everyone was underestimating that character until so-and-so picked him up", even though logically speaking that only proves how good the player is, not the character.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Falcon suddenly jumped to E tier if Ally randomly decided to use him more.

As for the range comment: What do you think one of the key reasons is that Ike has a 65-35 advantage over Squirtle? Range. The grab release CG -> walk-off fair helps, but Squirtle is one of the harder characters to grab. Range does affect match-ups.

I said I believe it's 55-45 for Ike, just that's closer to being an advantage for Ike then being deadeven if that makes any sense. It seems to me that Ike will have the superior ability to space due to the disjointness on his hitboxes, and better damage racking ability thanks to jab + the cg/bthrow->dash attack. Bowser has the slight edge in edgeguarding but both are going to be gimping each other easily. Both are powerhouses, Ike is stronger slightly, but Bowser is heavier so they should be flat out KOing each other around the same range.

Both characters can punish each other if they wiff attacks (though I don't believe Bowser can punish a properly spaced Fair. IIRC, Fortress doesn't get there quite quickly enough), so it's fairly even. However, I do believe that Ike's advantage in racking up the damage gives him the slight overall edge.

 

[Kirk]

This chaingrab Ike has on Bowser is more or less a non-issue. It has to be literally frame perfect for it to work (i.e. if you mess up by 1 frame in timing, it won't work)...and that's doing it upwards of 6-10 times in a row.

It IS there...but not realistic in an actual match. At best it will get a few times off by surprise, but the Bowser should eventually figure out he can just fortress and end the silliness.

Also, I'm starting to play Bowser a bit myself, and in my opinion the matchup is pretty even.

50-50 I'd say.

 

[Bowser King]

Guys, this isn't what were supposed to be discussing.

I disagree that it's an advantage for bowser. I'd call it even but 55-45 is perfectly fine with me. 5 points wont change anything >_>

So, who we discussing next?

-Bowser King

 

[JOE!]

So, who we discussing next?

-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

Who says we can't casually discuss match ups? I mean, what if a new Bowser player needs help with X character and it's not who we're "supposed" to be discussing? Do we say, 'sorry noob, you need to wait until whenever we get around to rediscussing or actually doing write ups for them.'

 

[JOE!]

*enjoys being ignored <.<*

 

[B!squick]

Awww. *hugs JOE!* Feel better? :D

Well, what's the final word on Samus, MrEh?

 

[MrEh]

I'll just put it as 45-55 and be done with it. Next character!

 

[B!squick]

Woo!

Sonic. He moves fast and has annoying amount of different approach options. Don't get caught up in the gamezorz.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

OoS Retreating Fortress is a lifesaver in this match-up. If you use it correctly, it can cancel out a lot of Sonic's options due to invincibility frames + moving out of the way. I don't think you move out of range of Dair if Sonic cancels his spindash with a jump where you used to be, but I think you would be able to block it.

Sadly, Espy still beats me even with that due to my ineptness, so I can't help much. >_> I did also find that Bowser seemed to be easy to "combo" due to Sonic's speed and Bowser's fatness. Uair hurts....

 

[B!squick]

I watched my share of Sonic vids before I faced someone who knew what they were doing with Sonic, so I knew to always AD whenever they came at me from below, be it Spring or otherwise. As long as you don't get caught by UAir (if you hear a "boing", AD), Bowser should live forever and a day, maybe even longer than D!ck Clark. :D

....

>.>

Anyway, it's just getting at Sonic that's the problem. This is the only match up where I've ever felt slow... T_T

 

[JOE!]

the biggest problem in this match is landing the blows on that speedy little *******...

firebreath works wonders vs his approaches though...

 

[Cassius.]

Lol I remember back in the day when I used to play this Sonic main who I thought was G.O.D., no joke. Yeah I mained Bowser too, and I was getting utterly destroyed everytime I played this dude. I thought I just completely sucked...until I pressed the B Button.

Yea, B Button will be your best friend in this matchup IMO. Once you see Sonic go in his ball you can be ready to press b, unless they Spinshot [Thanks JOE] Also, fortress OoS is a miracle worker too. Basically we have Sonic down when he comes to hit us...thats really about it. When it comes to hitting him with our actual moves, I lol.

When we're in the air, its best not to get caught in his moves, like JayDeth said. I find myself getting UAir;d, BAir'd and even FAir'd from hell and back when I don't airdodge. Make sure you do it...and try to be smart with it too lol.

Ugh this is one of those MU's where I really do feel too slow Dx

I wouldn't quite call it Sonic's favor, but I will say this is one annoying matchup.