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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

B!squick

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IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR THE FUTURE CAPTAIN FALCON MATCH UP:

It's official. Bowser is faster than Captain Falcon.

No, you read that right, Bowser is faster than Captain ****ing Falcon.

*The following is a comparison of Bowser and Falcon frame data using the earliest possible frame any given move can hit.*

Code:
-------|Jab |Dash|DTilt|FTilt|UTilt|DSma|FSma|USma|NAir|DAir|FAir|UAir|BAir|NSpe|DSpe|SSpe|USpe
Bowser |  6 | 10 |  10 |  10 |   8 | 14 | 26 | 16 |  8 | 14 |  8 | 16 |  9 | 23 | 11 |  8 |  6
Falcon |  3 |  8 |  11 |   9 |  17 | 19 | 18 | 22 |  7 | 16 | 14 |  6 | 10 | 53 | 15 | 21 | 14

Average of 10 Fastest Attacks
Bowser | 8.3
Falcon | 9.7
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,189
IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR THE FUTURE CAPTAIN FALCON MATCH UP:

It's official. Bowser is faster than Captain Falcon.

No, you read that right, Bowser is faster than Captain ****ing Falcon.

*The following is a comparison of Bowser and Falcon frame data using the earliest possible frame any given move can hit.*

Code:
-------|Jab |Dash|DTilt|FTilt|UTilt|DSma|FSma|USma|NAir|DAir|FAir|UAir|BAir|NSpe|DSpe|SSpe|USpe
Bowser |  6 | 10 |  10 |  10 |   8 | 14 | 26 | 16 |  8 | 14 |  8 | 16 |  9 | 23 | 11 |  8 |  6
Falcon |  3 |  8 |  11 |   9 |  17 | 19 | 18 | 22 |  7 | 16 | 14 |  6 | 10 | 53 | 15 | 21 | 14

Average of 10 Fastest Attacks
Bowser | 8.3
Falcon | 9.7
I'm glad you did this...so what are their other stats like? As in their defense moves, their average based movements, and air speed?

Oh and stat wise I think 10 might be making things a bit too simple...you should:
A. Post the Mean, Median, and Mode for whatever data set you are using...hell what else is stopping you from using other stat tests?
B. Compare more than just the fastest 10 moves...I mean break it up a bit...how about with that you take the top 10 central moves to their game, and then compare other things, like their top damage rakes, and top KO moves
 

B!squick

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I'm doing the entire cast for a speed tier list I plan on making for the Tech board now. I have a link to both air speed and dash speed lists in my MORE POWER! guide. Things like defensive moves, central moves, damage rake, and KO moves either require me to know how EVERY character plays (I'm not NinjaLink), varies based on who you ask, would require me to gather data as opposed to just finding it, or is something I don't understand (damage rake?). Oh, and I may do defensive moves later as well as grabs, I was just concerned with attacks. Well, attacks that aren't get up, ledge, or glide attacks for obvious reasons.

I will also be including an average and mode for individual moves, but I don't really see a need to figure out the median of the data. :/ What other stats did you have in mind? I decided on comparing an average of the 10 fastest as I'm doing this for the reason of speed. I'll also have an average for each character's aerials and grounded non-specials.

A future endeavor I thought up is a chart for cool down/IASA frames, but that's for another day.

On a side note, I've learned that MK is also missing data on more than a few moves and it was only recently that someone actually started gathering frame data for him. Who's honestly surprised by this though?
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
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You misunderstand how the "slow" concept works, JayDeth.

Bowser is slow because he's BIG.
Captain Falcon is fast because he's a cool dude and doesn't afraid of anything.
 

B!squick

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And Captain Falcon is gay and Bowser is a buddhist (if There Will Be Brawl is to be believed), but that's not gonna stop my crusade either!
 

Overclassed

Smash Journeyman
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My buddy Coney Isle beats the daylight out of me with DDD.

What exactly am I missing in the matchup? One bair and I'm usually done.

.-.
 

Liquid Gen

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My buddy Coney Isle beats the daylight out of me with DDD.

What exactly am I missing in the matchup? One bair and I'm usually done.

.-.
The matchup is 8/2 with infinite, and roughly 6/4 without it.

If you want to be like me and play D3/Bowser without a CP, you want to generally koopahop the whole match, literally. If you're in the air, he cant grab you, and the constant pressure will worry him, especially since he can't grab you. Up B OOS to ledge cancel alot in this, when koopahopping, airdodge the waddle dees and continue hopping, use jab alot to reset the spacing between you two. If by some god-given chance you grab him, you can CG him with an air break.

I would also recommend playing on Battlefield for a good neutral.

Oh, and try to always up air him out of his up b.
 

Overclassed

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I imagine koopahopping is the infinite side b jump? I'm not totally up to speed on all that stuff :<

He doesn't infinite, really... He doesn't CG really, actually. He's rather unique.

So it should be manageable. Tough, I know, but manageable. Thanks for the help. :]
 

Phiddlesticks

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Ness has a projectile that's even more annoying than Lucas'. It's called PK Thunder.

Ness' fair is very hard to punish when spaced correctly (similar to G&W's). His bair is also a surprisingly strong kill move and is easier to sweetspot against Bowser due to his size. His nair is super quick and has a really long hitbox, his upair can kill as well, and of course, his dair is a strong meteor smash. Basically, his air game is much better than Bowser's (but I'm sure this goes without saying).

Ness also has a good grab game. His bthrow is a reliable kill move and can kill somewhere around the 130s I think (I forget when it kills exactly), and his fthrow's set knockback is handy for sending Bowser off the stage for edgeguarding attempts. Ness' upthrow sends Bowser in prime position for either aerial or PK Thunder juggling. Like always, Bowser's most reliable option is to downb to the ledge, but remember that Bowser Bomb doesn't go through the tail of PK Thunder. Ness also has like one of the best dash grabs in the game, so watch out.

Make sure to edgeguard Ness using Firebreath. Just use enough so that it hits him out of his double jump, then grab the ledge so that Ness is either edgehogged or forced to PK Thunder 2 to the stage, where you can ideally punish his ending lag with a smash or something. Note that his recovery is harder to edgeguard than in melee since he can now guard himself with a fair while double jumping.

Don't get hit by PK Thunder 2 or you will be dead at like 30% or something. PK Fire is overrated and can be stopped by (power)shielding.

I think the matchup is slightly in Ness' favour, like 55-45 or 60-40 or something.

Just know that Ness is a much better character than Lucas overall, despite what the SBR tier list says. Either way though, they really shouldn't be compared as characters since the only similar moves they have are their specials and like fsmash
 

Liquid Gen

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Pk Thunder is a laughable projectile; it's easily punishable.

If trying to juggle you, down B on them or the nearest ledge.

If grounded, shdair towards them, it will cancel thunder and hit Ness.
 

Shaky

Smash Ace
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695
You're forgetting the tail is invincible, and that it is nearly 80% of the PK Thunder. In my opinion, Phiddlesticks (maybe Sergio too) has more knowledge of this matchup than most of the bowsers here, you guys should listen to him.
 

Liquid Gen

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Im not disputing anything but the PKThunder.

Grounded, that tail is harmless, and even in the air it will barely touch us, considering the tail is the most extreme of knockback (Im pretty sure the head is), in which case a simple FF to edge grab maneuvering could overcome.
 

Uffe

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First off, I'd like to say that's an amazing chart you've got on the first page. Really creative!

Ness
Anyway, this match up is pretty close. Versus Bowser, PK Thunder can do some justice. It's best not to do it while he's near you or if you're out in the open for I believe his Bowser Bomb? Is that the right term when he comes down in a sitting position? Anyway, it's best to attack him with PK Thunder if you're under a platform while he's in the air or if he's off the stage. But enough about PK Thunder.

PK Fire isn't Bowser's best friend, we all know that. If hit, Bowser is somewhat screwed as this gives Ness many options, some better than others. Of course Bowser can still escape PK Fire, I'm sure. However, getting hit over head can really mess things up for Bowser. You can even perform pillar spikes on Bowser when he recovers. That of course depends on where he's recovering. Still, it's possible, but also situational in some areas.

As for Ness' aerial attacks, Bowser is large target, so a lot of Ness' aerials are quite effective against Bowser. Is there reallly a reason for me to explain? Ness can retreat some of his aerials, so avoiding grabs is somewhat easy.

Bowser
Bowser has a lot of power and he's pretty heavy, so this is what in my opinion makes him a difficult fight. For starters, his grab release isn't good for us. Often times a Bowser main will use his or her grab release when the time is right. That time would be when Ness is weak enough to die by a d-tilt, which is outrageous, but expected for this giant beast. Bowser likes to use his infinite double jumps and it works sometimes.

It's kind of like Peach's floating, so it leaves Bowser open. But his aerials are pretty brutal, so that's something to look out for. Especially that body slam when he grabs and does a flip that defies gravity. And let's not forget his uair. Bowser's uair is slow, but it's sexy, too. It can kill early on.

Bowser can also gimp Ness' recovery. But not too often, which should be the least our worries. It's possible and it works since that fiery breath can stop our second jump, but nothing too major to go in to. If Ness is at stage level or above it, he's basically safe from Bowser's gimping. Okay, so Bowser apparently is all about strength. His attacks kill us pretty early. Even his tilts. We've got the ability to deal with Bowser and he's got the ability to deal with Ness.

My Conclusion
From my experience, which was a bad one, :laugh: I'd often times lose to Bowser. This could possibly be because I lacked and possibly still do lack the match up experience when I go up against a good Bowser. However, I did not deal with crappy Bowser's. I fought two good ones. Personally I'd like to say this is 50:50 or 55:45, Bowser.
 

Bowser King

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Post About Matchup
This post was a pretty big summary of the match.

It wasn't biased and took both sides advantages and disadvantages completely into account and made sure to list all/most of them.

Great job :)

If it wasn't clear enough, I agree with this guy. 50:50 or 55:45 bowser.

-:bowser:Bowser King
 

KRDsonic

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I personally think Bowser vs. Ness is even or maybe slightly in Bowser's favor, too. The person I play against all the time mains Ness, and we're about even in skill, but my Bowser usually beats his Ness on stages with few platforms. Stages like Battlefield usually give me trouble against his Ness since it sets him up to juggle me, and it's hard to do anything about it. PK Thunder when you're up in the air and he's safe under a platform is also extremely annoying x.x It also seems to be easy to hit Ness with Up Smashes after you force him into recovering with PK2, so that's always a nice option for killing him, I'd say.

I don't main Bowser, but I have some experience in the matchup at least since I play it often. I don't know if what I said can be said for other characters too, though.
 

Uffe

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This post was a pretty big summary of the match.

It wasn't biased and took both sides advantages and disadvantages completely into account and made sure to list all/most of them.

Great job :)

If it wasn't clear enough, I agree with this guy. 50:50 or 55:45 bowser.

-:bowser:Bowser King
Why thank you! That really means a lot to me. Yeah, I do my best to not be biased because it's not always about how our character can beat yours just because of this or that. And I'm not talking about Bowser vs Ness, I'm talking about how match up discussions are usually done in general. Some people like to believe that because a character like Ike is slow, that he has no ability to defeat someone like Kirby. Now I don't know the match up between the two, so I apologize if Ike owns Kirby often times in a match.

Now I'm sure Kirby has the advantage on Ike, but let's say he didn't. Let's say Ike had a huge advantage on Kirby. The Kirby mains would probably say something like, "Well Ike is slow and his attacks are slow, so Kirby automatcally wins." Which is probably actually true. But again, if Ike had the upperhand in the match up, the person who said Kirby would automatically win would most likely be bias because one, Kirby is quick and two, he mains Kirby and knows absolutely nothing about Ike.

So yeah, I try not to be bias. If I do come off as that, correct me. I try to seperate fact from opinion. Like a lot of people like to think Ness is easy to gimp. Well, it's easier said than done. He doesn't have the best recovery, sure, but he can still make it back regardless. So thanks again. :)
 

_clinton

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I think the Ness boards went 6:4 if you want numbers...

As for my exp. with Bowser...I don't think it matters because everything I do is mixed...I'd post some comments...but it looks like some people already beat me to them...

However I'd like to back up on Ness' recovery...please note that Ness' 2nd jump does give him on average the same amount of horizontal range that Mario has total (which means he has more range than characters like Sheik) and with PKT2 he does have some nice +s to go with the -s of it (Range which leads to about 9000 ways you could throw it out, the fact that trying to gimp him could kill you, ext.)
 

Phiddlesticks

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Assuming you aren't trolling/joking around, the Pokemon Trainer block is there for a rough average of the matchups against the three Pokemon, or a number that represents the Pokemon Trainer matchup in general.
 

B!squick

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We'll probably rediscuss all of the match ups once we're done, especially since we'll need a refresher to do the write ups anyway.

Also, I suggest we include which stages to CP/Ban as well which characters are useful CPs.
 

Gardevior

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Assuming you aren't trolling/joking around, the Pokemon Trainer block is there for a rough average of the matchups against the three Pokemon, or a number that represents the Pokemon Trainer matchup in general.
Oh, okay. I thought something like that would be a little redundant, but apparently not.
 

kennypu

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hey Mreh x]. nyways on topic.
I would like to say.... the math up may be around 60/40, in favor for ness. Ness has a large advantage over bowser, especially because he can heal if bowser breaths fire, and bowser can be easily spammed up to 40-60% using only pk fire.
However, I know (due to experience fighting Mreh), grab release combos on Ness are painful. I believe bowser's ground moves out range ness's as well. Thats about I can give
 

B!squick

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PK Fire is SO easy to shield, seriously. >.> Though it does suck if it connects.

I don't know, it's pretty even. Don't really have any experience against a good Ness though, so, meh.
 
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