A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Red Arremer]

I'm pretty sure Kirby can gimp Bowser after the invul frames on fortress wear off. I'd need to test it, but I think we could get through it with at the very least Bair, since it has a very disjoincted hitbox, and I vaguely remember using Dair on it, but I could be mistaken. It would require someone to test it, but I do believe we could gimp you IF we are careful.

Yes, but we're not a CPU.

 

[fromundaman]

Yes, but we're not a CPU.

I'm just saying it would be possible, not that we're going to get you every time, as it would still be difficult to do.

 

[Diddyknight]

would it be right to space wit Ftilt against kirby in the ground but during the air spacing wit Fair?

 

[fromundaman]

I think Ftilt is a good way to space against Kirby (Does Ftilt go through Kirby Bair? Anyone know?), and Uair can stop us if we're coming from above, though I rarely play Bowser, so meh.

 

[Flayl]

Kirby's DAir would stop Bowser's UAir easily. Both of those moves have pretty bad start-up time, but I think UAir is still the laggiest.

As for FTilt, vs BAir, I'm not sure.

 

[Blistering Speed]

U Tilt would stop all Kirby's above aerial approaches however, I don't know why you'd use U Air in place of it.

 

[fromundaman]

Doh, my bad. I meant Utilt. Not sure why I typed Uair.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[B!squick]

... So, uh, just watch the grabs and all around play as normal?

 

[Bandit_Kieth]

sounds about right.. my main opponent is my friend who mains kirby.

he is fairly easy to dominate (my friend this is)

 

[Collective of Bears]

Kirby's done. 60-40 for them. CAN WE MOVE ON NOW!?

 

[MK26]

Kirby's done. 60-40 for them. CAN WE MOVE ON NOW!?

No. He's not done, because we're discussing you guys over on our thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032
It's a full matchup guide, based on:

Character: (Duh)
Difficulty rating: (Your rating of the match)
Overview: (What general strategies does this character employ against a Kirby? Does he camp? Go all out offensive?)
Pros+Cons: (What does this character have going for him? Weight? Speed? How about things we can take advantage of?)
Watch out for: (This character's favourite moves and when he'll use them)
How to win: (What Kirby needs to do to beat this character)
Spit out or Swallow?: (Do we want to copy his ability or keep the inhale for Kirbycides/under-stage spits?)
What NOT to do: (If you want to lose, go right ahead)
Stages: (Which to counterpick? Which to avoid?)
Synopsis: (Tl;Dr version)

But the emphasis is on stage counterpicks/bans and Bowser's favourite moves.

 

[B!squick]

Well, at least that should easy since we kinda went over the jist here. Still, we really do need to move on. Bowser may not be the slowest char, but the Bowser Boards seem to be. V_V

 

[MrEh]

Trying. Comp broken. Will update soon.

 

[B!squick]

Oh ****, I forgot you were TC MrEh, my bad. But the Bowser Boards ARE slow, even when MrEh has his compy.

EDIT: Lol, I just realised he said 'swallow.' xD

 

[Collective of Bears]

No. He's not done, because we're discussing you guys over on our thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032

So we should have to stay discussing Kirby because of your thread not being done yet? No. Our boards are probably the furthest behind. We need to pick up the pace.

Donkey Kong is next. Start talking.

 

[Bowser King]

We need to get moving guys.

It's DK time :D

Bair is ****

-Bowser King

 

[IC3R]

I apologize, Bowser boards; I know you are trying to move onto Donkey Kong discussion, but please bear with me. I wrote out the match-up summary, and I just need to know if anything in there is inaccurate or missing:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6686883&postcount=1660

^That would be the summary chart^

Thank you for your time,
-IC3R, Official Star Warrior


P.S.: DK's B-Air is ****

 

[Bowser King]

I apologize, Bowser boards; I know you are trying to move onto Donkey Kong discussion, but please bear with me. I wrote out the match-up summary, and I just need to know if anything in there is inaccurate or missing:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6686883&postcount=1660

^That would be the summary chart^

Thank you for your time,
-IC3R, Official Star Warrior


P.S.: DK's B-Air is ****

Ohhh...that's what we were waiting for

Your summary seems accurate to me

-Bowser King

 

[Liquid Gen]

Question ; can we survive understage spitout with jump>Klaw?

Just a proposal.

 

[Collective of Bears]

So BESIDES Bair being ****, here's what I think.

Fire is a real ***** for DK, being so huge and easy to catch in it. So that's one of your main weapons when fighting DK. Second is Grab Releasing. Do it. A lot.

 

[Liquid Gen]

^ What? You can't grab release DK... He gets out of them 10 frames earlier than everyone else, he can just dodge whatever you're gonna do.

 

[IC3R]

^ What? You can't grab release DK... He gets out of them 10 frames earlier than everyone else, he can just dodge whatever you're gonna do.

Unless he mistimes it and eats an F-Smash >>

 

[Bowser King]

I just thought I'd mention this but klaw hopping with the c-stick does some weird stuff.

Someone else test out klaw hopping just with the cstick. It does some weird stuff.

Gen, on ground release yes but you can do things on air release.

-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

MrEh's been having comp troubles and he's the topic creator.

Well, against DK, it probably goes the same as usual for Bowser: Bow>DK=Ground, Bow<DK=Air

 

[Hobobloke]

I just thought I'd mention this but klaw hopping with the c-stick does some weird stuff.

Someone else test out klaw hopping just with the cstick. It does some weird stuff.

Gen, on ground release yes but you can do things on air release.

-Bowser King

I can't do any testing just tell us.

 

[Jim Morrison]

B-air festival
DK has a great grab game, so a bit less of the shield, more of the spotdodge when DK is grounded. OoS Fortress his Bairrage. DK is kind of heavy, so Fire should do some decent damage. His super DK punch and up-B have some super armor. Watch out for Sakurai Combo (side-b > Full DK punch).
Also, when he charges his punch, but doesn't have the steam coming from his arm, he loaded to 9 charges, doing godly knockback (more than 10 charges)

 

[Collective of Bears]

Unless he mistimes it and eats an F-Smash >>

My thoughts exactly. Then again, a lot of Bowsers might not like that idea, but I have a very risky playstyle, so I guess it just applies to me.

 

[MrEh]

DK's Bair is annoying. Argh.

 

[Liquid Gen]

DK's Bair is annoying. Argh.

Shield says hi.


Seriously, I don't know why everyone is complaining about bair. It's not that bad.

Also, when fortressing OOS, NEVER GO BEHIND DK OK.

 

[MrEh]

Edited OP. DK discussion has already started, so carry on.

 

[Blistering Speed]

It seems like Donkey Kong mitigates a lot of Bowser's greatest strengths. No grab releases, he survives just as long as you and kills just as well as you and I think his F Tilt and D Tilt outrange everything we have except Firebreath (could someone confirm?). Neither character will be gimping the other so it mostly comes down to the two of you slogging at each other until you're in you're respective high kill percentages. DK's stupid grab range also means the living in shield idea has to be more cautious, a lot of things you would normally do (e.g. running shield to react as an approach) become unviable.

I agree with Gen, B Air isn't that big a deal, thanks to Bowsers wonderful OOS option in Fortress. You obviously should be abusing this the whole match, but that's no different to any other matchup. Klawhopping can give DK a lot of trouble, his limited mobility and Klaw's broken disjoint leave him with few immediate answers, especially considering he can't just shield and punish it. Firebreath is a GREAT asset in this match, DK's fat *** can't SDI through it like many others so he just has to take it and SDI out, resetting at neutral. If you can space Firebreath accordingly, it really affects the matchup.

 

[Liquid Gen]

DK can actually SDI the fir up a bit and Side B you. This is generally problematic.

However, this is good because it means you can bait the side b with a fire, release early, and punish accordingly.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

It seems like Donkey Kong mitigates a lot of Bowser's greatest strengths. No grab releases, he survives just as long as you and kills just as well as you and I think his F Tilt and D Tilt outrange everything we have except Firebreath (could someone confirm?). Neither character will be gimping the other so it mostly comes down to the two of you slogging at each other until you're in you're respective high kill percentages. DK's stupid grab range also means the living in shield idea has to be more cautious, a lot of things you would normally do (e.g. running shield to react as an approach) become unviable.

I agree with Gen, B Air isn't that big a deal, thanks to Bowsers wonderful OOS option in Fortress. You obviously should be abusing this the whole match, but that's no different to any other matchup. Klawhopping can give DK a lot of trouble, his limited mobility and Klaw's broken disjoint leave him with few immediate answers, especially considering he can't just shield and punish it. Firebreath is a GREAT asset in this match, DK's fat *** can't SDI through it like many others so he just has to take it and SDI out, resetting at neutral. If you can space Firebreath accordingly, it really affects the matchup.

couple misconceptions, i'll start from the top and work down, dk is slightly lighter off the side, but heavier off the top, his average weight makes him a bit heavier than you (and the heaviest character out there). On top of this he has the upb air brake, meaning he will not die from cross stage moves (you want him dead you have to corner him, hit him hard midstage, or hit him REALLY hard off the top). but his stocks will last longer than yours, on top of this he has preposterous amounts of knockback. punch is deadly in the 70-90 range, usmash in the 80/90s, fsmash around 90 (but who uses it uncharged?) dsmash around 110. i'm not 100% on these, i just knocked it up 20% from the normal numbers.

we can both gimp each other.... kinda. we can spike you, dair and either hit of fair (the sideways will still ko at most %s) is a gimp, you can edgeguard dk the way most people do, just keep hitting him back out until he either dies or makes it back. that said neither player can rely on gimps, but they are viable.

Bair is that good in this matchup, as it is our answer to bowsers oos game. bowser is one of the two characters that can go toe to toe with us on the ground, and while you aren't as good at it as diddy, that's still **** impressive (we can force snake to jump at us, SNAKE). your shield game makes our ground game risky, luckily we have well spaced bairs. your upb won't punish well spaced bairs, we're too far away and the attack ends too soon, if they space badly/try to double bair, go ahead, its a free punish, but a smart bair spam gives bowser lots of problems and lets dk poke at his shield.


klawhopping is not as effective, as upb and high angled ftilts both beat it.

6-4 dk, bowser should be grounded and forcing us aerial, dk should be spacing bairs. your ground game keeps you in it, but the bair is really safe when retreated, so you have a lot of problems with it

 

[B!squick]

... Well, I'm pretty satisfised with what itsthebigfoot stated. He probably knows DK and Bowser better than anyone, so I'm content with whatever he says. Especially since I see no one has tried to debunk him. Who's next?

*checks*

... Arg, Ice Climbers... x_x

 

[Bowser King]

Considering we've already discussed this matchup and little has changed I think we should move on.

- Bowser King

 

[MrEh]

Moving on to the Ice Climbers now.

Uh oh. Chaingrabs. >>

 

[Liquid Gen]

There's really nothing you can do..

The only things that work effectively is fire and ftilt. Maybe upB but dont use it too much. =/

8/2 IC.

 

[MrEh]

Winning on our counterpick (Norfair) is pointless when the IC **** on matches 1 and 3. I'm not optimistic about this matchup at all.

The Klaw will split them up, so maybe large amounts of infinite jumping? Hm...

 

[Liquid Gen]

No, when you grab one, the other can easily interrupt you on the fall (even if you grab Popo)

 

[Seagull Joe]

bad matchup.almost as bad as ddd. down b approach for ic's wrecks bowsers options